PvT Metal Counter? [Archive]

PowderBB3D

04-16-2005, 4:30 PM

Okay my friend and I were discussing strategies and one thing that we couldn't decide on was how to deal with the following midgame scenario.

PvT

You're the P, your enemy is T. You went 2gate goon but showed lot early. So you expected vulture counter, which came, and you defended. But now you're stuck with goon/dt/ht (dt for fear of early tank support and ht because its always nice to have a few storms on hand) and you can't break his tank push. He's got wraiths running the sky to intercept shuttles so dropping is not an option, and he supports his tanks with vulture/mine/turret. If you send your dts in they get owned since the turrets detect, goons get torn to pieces by the tanks, and all the vultures are discouraging you from switching to lots.

I was speculating a few possible responses:

Merge archons from hts and use them as shields for advancing goons to target turrets. If they have too many tanks fall back, send in dts. Comsat will come, of course, but you send in only 1-2 at once to force energy expenditure (I'm assuming you didn't let him macro you to hell early on). After some tanks are gone send in goons.

OR

Pump 'sair+dweb for tank and use goons to deal with/tangle up vultures. Use HTs to storm the tanks under the web, send in dts to mop up those that survive. This requires a switch to stargates though, so I dunno.

What would you do?

X-Master2

04-16-2005, 9:00 PM

Probably the best thing to do is use DWeb over most of the entire area, mostly on tanks and turrents, then use your Hts to hit in places to get rid of mines and some possible vultures too, keep Dts around to protect Hts, then just use the Hts to storm the tanks, or just use scouts to take out tanks while sairs are busy DWebbing and taking out wraiths, make sure you have an observer for mines and Wraiths.

Of course this is just a raw idea there may have to be some improvising, depending on how your opponet reacts, and some parts I may have left out.

MidnightGladius

04-17-2005, 6:20 PM

If you go air (sair/scouts), you won't be able to hold up against his push and will have your main pounded to shreds.

I personally would hallucinate some zeals and drag mines into tanks/vults, and then follow with goons and sairs (for dweb, not actual offense).

Kabam

04-17-2005, 10:30 PM

OR you could just not let them push from the beggining...?

PowderBB3D

04-18-2005, 11:05 AM

Kabam I was looking for real advice for a theoretical situation.

Thanks to those that gave it. Gladius, the hallucination might be a useful tactic. I'll try that out if anything goes awry in my next PvT.

Cpt.Chronic

04-18-2005, 2:50 PM

Well, just because you don't build zealots early game doesn't mean you shouldn't build them mid-game. Get the speed upgrade for them and start mixing them with your goon army. Don't let vultures scare you away from building zealots. You could even use the vultures to your advantage. Say for instance you see him lay a bunch of mines. You can drag the mines into their vultures/tanks by using the move command with zealots instead of attack-move, as that would make them attack the mines. The key is to slow his push down while you take another couple expansions and tech to carriers or arbiters and just generally out-macro him. Group your troops with hotkeys and set them in front and to the side of his push. Kill any mines that aren't protected with seige tanks with your ranged goons. Attack his push with your mixed goon/zealot army from all sides at the same time. I like to use attack-move with goons, and attack-target (on tanks) with zealots. After all of your zealots die pull your goons back to safety and rebuild your zealots. It can also be worth it to sacrifice a shuttle as long as you can get the payload off. Drop some zealots on groups of tanks while sending in your other troops by land.

siuloongbao

04-18-2005, 6:44 PM

I say go high templar. and blue goon. dark archons are good too. What you can do is hallucinate as many goons as you can then send em in first. While your hallucinations are getting eaten up, you should have freed the area of mines as well as gotten your goons in range. If that isn't enough, any dark archons you have in the area will be able to either maelstrom his infantry support or actually mind control his tanks, at least one, and in a strategic position. It just may work.

MidnightGladius

04-18-2005, 8:29 PM

I personally believe getting dark archons in this situation is possibly the worst thing you can do.

Cpt.Chronic

04-18-2005, 8:49 PM

One problem with hallucination is that they die much faster than regular troops so in most cases they will die before they reach the tanks or before they have cleared enough mines to warrant its cost. Storm is the best spell in the entire game so to forfeit mana for storm in the form of hallucination really doesn't make much sense at all. If you have high templars, the best use for them is to do storm drops on his workers. I will usually load up 2 zealots and 2 ht's to go harrass his econ. If he has tanks protecting them, drop the zealots first to draw the tank fire then drop the ht's immediately after to storm the workers and then pick the ht's back up. They also work pretty well with your main force to storm grouped tanks or tanks on cliffs.

ZeroCross

04-19-2005, 9:13 AM

Ok. First of all, never send Achons against someone using vultures and tanks. They will absolutly tear them the shreds. While the archons may be able to move without triggering the mines, they are not completely immune to them.

If your enemy does get wriath though, scouts with observers will send them down in a heartbeat. Any corsairs are iceing on the cake. In any case, when your enemey is terran, and you are protoss, if they rush for metal, you have to try and pound them early. Make sure they don't reach it. If you are unable to do this, Arbiters will be your best freind if you can reach them in time. With tanks however, it will be MOST difficult, especially if they leap-frog.

MidnightGladius

04-19-2005, 4:31 PM

Most protoss players that I've ever seen play can never stop a terran player from getting metal (except one in Blood Bath where the toss did a pure 3gate zlot rush).

siuloongbao

04-19-2005, 5:58 PM

I personally believe getting dark archons in this situation is possibly the worst thing you can do.

why?

One problem with hallucination is that they die much faster than regular troops so in most cases they will die before they reach the tanks or before they have cleared enough mines to warrant its cost. Storm is the best spell in the entire game so to forfeit mana for storm in the form of hallucination really doesn't make much sense at all. If you have high templars, the best use for them is to do storm drops on his workers. I will usually load up 2 zealots and 2 ht's to go harrass his econ. If he has tanks protecting them, drop the zealots first to draw the tank fire then drop the ht's immediately after to storm the workers and then pick the ht's back up. They also work pretty well with your main force to storm grouped tanks or tanks on cliffs.

Why do they die faster? And even if they do, why would it matter when they simply are cannon fodder for the tanks, they're meant to get you close to their tanks.

Storm is true, its a good ability to get used in a tight spot, but if you're in the middle of an attack, and you're losing units fast, i would concentrate on stormiing them if i could, then getting a counter drop in.

X-Master2

04-19-2005, 8:26 PM

why?

Why do they die faster? And even if they do, why would it matter when they simply are cannon fodder for the tanks, they're meant to get you close to their tanks.

Storm is true, its a good ability to get used in a tight spot, but if you're in the middle of an attack, and you're losing units fast, i would concentrate on stormiing them if i could, then getting a counter drop in.

why?why? You really should not even be asking that, becuase if you have forgotten, kinda like the archon, dark archons main defense is sheilds(I think), and if you use mind control on any unit it will drain those sheilds, the nly possible use for a dark archon would be malestrom, but thats a longshot, you got a bunch of other things to deal with before yu can even get them in range any way. But the hallcination is right though, thats what they are there for, but you would have to have a lot of them mixed in with your real units, and possibly some dts and other units all over the place, so some can trigger the mines(I think hallcinations can trigger mines) so your real units dont get it, and then when they get to the tanks the enemy wont know which to target on first.

ReD_ICE

04-20-2005, 2:05 AM

and if you use mind control on any unit it will drain those sheilds
when the hell did this start to happen? in what version? apparently NOT in any of the versions lately...

Also, hallucination may confuse ur enemy, but it certainly wont do as much damage to them as it would've if u've stormed instead

Kamikaze_Chicken

04-20-2005, 4:07 AM

and if you use mind control on any unit it will drain those sheilds

when the hell did this start to happen? in what version? apparently NOT in any of the versions lately...

he means... at least i think he does... is that Mind Control drains the shields of the Dark Archon...

ReD_ICE

04-20-2005, 4:14 AM

i know what he means, even so, that shouldnt happen, only mana is drained...wtf...

Cpt.Chronic

04-20-2005, 1:52 PM

Why do they die faster? And even if they do, why would it matter when they simply are cannon fodder for the tanks, they're meant to get you close to their tanks.
If I remember correctly, hallucinations take full damage X 2 from every attack/unit.

MidnightGladius

04-20-2005, 4:05 PM

Yeah, hallucinations die a LOT faster than real units.

Mind Control reduces the dark archon's shields to zero when cast.

Maelstrom also doesn't work on terran metal (at least I thought it didn't...)

My use for hallus is simply to be able to clear out mines and do some damage in the process.

Kamikaze_Chicken

04-21-2005, 1:09 AM

i know what he means, even so, that shouldnt happen, only mana is drained...wtf...

mana is drained of 100 because of the mana cost of the spell... however the side effect of mind control is also the drainage of the DA's shields

ReD_ICE

04-21-2005, 3:29 AM

my bad, sorry

MidnightGladius

04-21-2005, 3:55 PM

I thought MC cost 150 mana.

Kamikaze_Chicken

04-22-2005, 3:57 AM

oh your right it does... proves to show i haven't played much SC lately lol

siuloongbao

04-23-2005, 12:03 AM

the high cost of mind control is irrelevant. It is an expensive spell, and it is extremely unlikely that you will be able to use it often. But when you do get the chance to use it, it may be extremely effective given your moment of use.

Hallucinations would serve to take the initial damage from the support units around the tanks, and if any of them survive by the time ur regular units can close and attack, they can draw fire, sparing some of ur regular units. Hallucinations die fast, thats been established, but they can still serve a purpose, despite their short lives.

Of course, I would only use dark archons as a later game strategy, i wouldn't go straight for DAs.

Ahzz

04-23-2005, 12:14 AM

mind control is USELESS unless you have rather high amount of them. Hallucinations are.... ok for some cases, but they lose hp extremely fast, which make them very vurnerable

MidnightGladius

04-23-2005, 10:32 AM

I never said mind control was USEFUL, I was simply clearing up some misconceptions on it.

ReD_ICE

04-23-2005, 10:57 AM

no spell/unit is USELESS...there's a reason for every spell/unit, and in this case, mind control can be used as a strat too, although it's costly

siuloongbao

04-23-2005, 1:50 PM

MidnightGladius

04-23-2005, 10:23 PM

Hold off the push and storm drop his resources while teching to carriers.

But then, isn't that the status quo answer?

siuloongbao

04-24-2005, 7:26 PM

depending on how big your army is, depending on how early the metal is coming in, depending on many things. Carriers might not be possible if he gets you early. Well...its always possible...but to get enough to be effective while at the same time maintaining a defending army, seems tricky...

Cpt.Chronic

04-25-2005, 1:32 PM

This scenario happened to me,

terran comes in with 5 tanks, 8 vultures, and 2 scvs. He's already set up a network of missile turrets behind him while he was moving in. I have the ability to build every gateway unit and shuttles. But at the moment i have 7 goons and 2 DTs.

What would you do?
I would drop the dts (and one goon) in his main while setting your goons just outside of the range of the tanks to make it harder for him to push into your base. Depending on his push, you have to retreat to higher ground. Be sure to block your ramp with goons too so you don't let vultures in. Get observers asap and just don't allow him to march straight into your base. But since he's using his forces to contain you, his main should be open to dt harrassment. Drop your payload at the edge of his base and send the goon in first to draw any mines and then send the dts in. Send the shuttle back to your base and use it to drop zealots or dts on his advancing tanks while attacking with goons.

Jaguar_King

04-25-2005, 6:50 PM

Earlier zealot rush >>>>> any terran going for metal units.

siuloongbao

04-25-2005, 7:16 PM

ah. Thats pretty good Cpt. Chronic. Thanks for the advice. Zealots have problems getting by walls...Yea thats y u have to go goon fast so u can break down their wall, or try to before he gets tanks anyway. In my experience, if u pylon his incomplete wall, if you can find him immediately, if ur gateway finishes fast enough, you can zealot rush him. But usually u don't find him fast enough to pylon his wall, or ur zealot takes too long in coming out to accomplish this. But if it was possible you're right zealots own metal.

--Steamer of Buns

MidnightGladius

04-26-2005, 3:50 PM

But vultures own unspeeded zlots.

ReD_ICE

04-26-2005, 8:56 PM

exactly, however, if there are half a dozen zealots, it will take a while to kill using only 1-3 vultures, and plus, toss may not even give a shit about ur vultures, and go on into ur base, destroying ur economy, and at the same time, he could start teching up, while u have to get back on ur econ

MidnightGladius

04-27-2005, 3:43 PM

I guess that's true...

But this is a very slim possibility, isn't it?

siuloongbao

04-29-2005, 7:27 PM

only use zealots if you know he's going infantry, or he has no wall, or else...whats the point? So if he's going infantry, he won't have vultures to begin with, and if he doesn't have a wall, u can always early rush him with 1 or 2 then follow up with more and more. Accumulation isn't fun for ur opponents. But then thats the point.

MidnightGladius

04-30-2005, 9:24 PM

Early zlot rush basically only works with zerg. Otherwise, it's almost never plausible.

siuloongbao

04-30-2005, 11:12 PM

How about a teching toss? Toss that go goon go with gateway, assimilator, cybernetics core...usually. So if you just pump zealots into him...would that be able to overwhelm his goons + zealots or w/e else he is able to tech to?

Ahzz

05-01-2005, 1:21 AM

early zeal can be rather nasty harass on pvp

MidnightGladius

05-01-2005, 3:36 PM

Oh yeah sorry; forgot about that.

Coincidentally, I just got owned today on a pvp by a zealot rush.

siuloongbao

05-02-2005, 8:51 PM

cool. That happened to me too, which is why i brought it up. and i was the teching toss...=b

Zealot rushes can be very fun. Once you beat down their wall, if they're wide open like that, sending in mass zealots would be a VERY good idea. So maybe while you're attacking begin zealot production, and if your assault succeeds just send em in.

In a game that i was in, thats what i got the opportunity to do. Me and my zerg partner had the usual combination of units, zeals+goons and lings+hydras. So we sent them in against a terran that was walling in the notorious 9 o'clock slot. after 2 waves we beat down his wall, and it turned out that i had 18 zealots hanging around. So at this point, he still had 1 bunker with 4 tanks behind it. his scv was furiously repairing that bunker and i suspect he was sending in more when my zealots ran up his ramp and finished off his bunker. Of course the tanks returned fire but it wasn't too long before my zealots closed with his tanks and the subsequent explosions heralded the fall of his base. But thats just being melodramatic. His front door was wide open and my zealots made short work of his turrets and other defensive buildings and other buildings close to his choke. Once my zealots penetrated his outer perimeter, my partner took the cue from me and came in with more zerglings and hydralisks, and at that point with the sweat running down his brow, he surrendered!

YAY! *JUMPS IN THE AIR*

Yea thats why i like zealots. =b

Sambo83

05-03-2005, 1:01 AM

lol.. losing to zeal rush pvp.. that reminds me, I should really publish my PvP guide.

Ahzz

05-03-2005, 7:10 AM

:D I'd read it :P

IceFlare

05-03-2005, 6:56 PM

Sambo83

05-03-2005, 7:23 PM

Really? It's easy? Do you have a replay of you doing it. I know I can't do it effectively.

Cpt.Chronic

05-03-2005, 8:02 PM

goon/sair would be a counter. if he sets up camp in middle and contains you, its quite easy to make the tanks useless thru dweb and have a couple dts make that 1 or 2 so that you can "snipe" any tank thats not covered in detection
Actually, that doesn't work very well, especially if the terran uses vultures/mines with his push because you would have to d-web the tanks while your goons kill the mines and then d-web them again because it would have worn out by the time you're done with the mines. It would take excellent micro/timing and a lot of sairs.

IceFlare

05-03-2005, 8:34 PM

Really? It's easy? Do you have a replay of you doing it. I know I can't do it effectively.I dint mean its easy to execute i mean its not hard to aim dwebs on top to take out a couple tanks instead of just one thats wut i meatn

MidnightGladius

05-03-2005, 10:07 PM

Siuloongbao, you need to make your sig less wide.

Goons/sairs/dts only works if they're using a pure tank push. Otherwise, the short effect time of dweb makes the entire thing more likely to fall apart.

Playing lotr-style maps (sd se, for example) actually helps with dweb placement, as you have to time operations in almost no time at all.

siuloongbao

05-03-2005, 11:12 PM

Why should i make it less wide?

I don't wanna go changing my sig blindly...

This is a spam post since i don't have anything intelligible to say about d-web...

IceFlare

05-04-2005, 5:33 PM

u need 2 change sig bcuz the limit here is 500x125 i think

ReD_ICE

05-04-2005, 11:42 PM

couldnt u find a way to drop in from the back and backstab, instead of trying to break the push? or is that not useful?

Ahzz

05-05-2005, 1:03 AM

The thing is, Protoss don't need so many shuttles at all. However, arbiter recall might be more than useful. And if you happen to have like 3 or more shuttles, but you rarely need so many. Breaking the push might be really important, since if the t gets proper defence up, and push where it should be, he can pretty much anything he want's. Usually.

siuloongbao

05-05-2005, 9:30 PM

Default Re: PvT Metal Counter?
couldnt u find a way to drop in from the back and backstab, instead of trying to break the push? or is that not useful?

Absolutely, i think cpt. chronic said that was the textbook strategy to disrupt a metal counter. But then maybe thats only if its right at your doorstep, it makes him fight on two fronts anyway. It did in hitler, it might work for you too =b

--steamer of buns

ReD_ICE

05-06-2005, 2:25 AM

well, another way would be to just go carriers

siuloongbao

05-07-2005, 12:09 AM

Thats hard when you're being contained...or they're right at your doorstep. So i would do that if i knew what he was doing perhaps. See that wall --> go carrier

MidnightGladius

05-07-2005, 10:09 AM

Well, then you're suggesting we all go carrier as soon as we scout (I mean come on, show me a replay where a terran doesn't wall in TvP?).

ReD_ICE

05-07-2005, 10:26 AM

well...not all t players wall when against p...but under usual circumstances, i guess so...

IceFlare

05-07-2005, 1:32 PM

if P sees there is no wall you can be sure your gonna be seeing a couple zlots comming ur way soon

siuloongbao

05-07-2005, 6:21 PM

(I mean come on, show me a replay where a terran doesn't wall in TvP?).

thats true. But usually that terran goes metal of some kind. thats the accepted and quite trite terran strategy.

From the noobs that just tank push with infantry support, to the pros that tank/vult push...metal is usually the strategy.

And what other strategy could there be? tank drops still require metal, BCs i suppose, but u don't see that so often. And then theres infantry, which u usually don't wall on.

IceFlare

05-07-2005, 7:45 PM

every matchup requires tanks.. its like the terrans pinnacle unit

Ahzz

05-08-2005, 12:54 AM

I hate to say this, because I hate him, but nada made an tvz strategy that doesn't need tanks. 2 starport vessel, 2 engineering bay to upgrade, and lotsa lotsa raxes. Works rather well. But not if newbies do it, because they don't know how to micro

ReD_ICE

05-08-2005, 7:10 AM

wow, thats pretty risky, i mean, what with lurks and all...tankless...i cant even imagine, lol..

Ahzz

05-08-2005, 7:48 AM

it just requires hardcore micro. You just should get vessels so fast, that they'll irradiate the lurks. Also, the lurks will need 3 hits if medics do not heal, because it's quite fast 2 engineering bay upgrades...

siuloongbao

05-08-2005, 9:06 PM

raxes?

MidnightGladius

05-08-2005, 10:15 PM

Kamikaze_Chicken

05-09-2005, 4:57 AM

If you don't have tanks, how do you handle ultraling under swarm?

i think if you dont have tanks and they go ultraling under swarm your pretty much screwed... even if you do manage to survive you will be extremely crippled

IceFlare

05-09-2005, 7:33 AM

Well i gess ud still run... u dun face anything under swarm, you just run and get the hell out of there

Cpt.Chronic

05-09-2005, 1:13 PM

barracks in sc language.

Wow, I can't imagine not using tanks as terran...Every game I play with terran that extends beyond early game involves tanks in some way.

If you don't have tanks, how do you handle ultraling under swarm?
Since your'e not making tanks you can make more science vessels. So by the time he has dark swarm + ultras you should have tons of vessels so just retreat from the dark swarm and irradiate the defilers and ultras.