Zerg v. Protoss Help

[FeceMan]

Hi folks, this is my first post on the boards, so bear with me if I do something stupid.

I'll get into my problem now: there's a guy I know who is pretty good at SC, and he always beats the crap out of me. The first time was because I played Brood Wars for the first time and had no idea what the Dark Templars were; the second was because I forgot that Overlords were detectors (if I weren't me and I saw myself, I'd probably mock me too, so don't feel bad :)).

However, I watch his strategies and he uses pretty much two strategies:

1. Mass photon cannons and create DTs/Templars and blow the crap out of my Zerg units; he usually has a good backup force of Zealots and Dragoons, too.

2. Use lots and lots of Corsairs (the ones with the reverse-Scourge cloud thing) to overwhelm forces and attack when they can't.

He seems to prefer the former, and I have no way to defeat it. The main time that I was seriously plowed by it was when I was playing Terran with my friend (yes, very, very, very sad--2:1 and we still lost). He had so many cannons that we couldn't get through, and whenever we used Siege tanks to attack, he used Dark Templars/Dark Archons to blow the fecal matter out of us. It was impossible to sneak any units inside his base. My friend managed to get some Wraiths inside the base, but a few arbiters + lots of dragoons + a few "things" (the invisible detector thingies...sorry, pulling a mental blank) = a lot of dead Wraiths.

In what manner can I defeat this as the Zerg? I don't think rushing is feasible, as he usually has cannons up ASAP, and I'm at a complete loss.

Thanks for your help.

[Battlecruiser]

is this fastest possible? It seems like it is because everyone in Fastest makes a million cannons.

[FeceMan]

Nope, it's set on 2-3 notches from the fastest.

[Battlecruiser]

no the fastest possible map. not the speed. you know the money map called fastest possible?

[assassin_666]

most people like me play on fastest speed but if your palying on the map no one here can help you unless your palying on a good map

[Merlinqxg]

Of course there are things to do; don't be ridiculous. EVERY map has some kind of strategy/counter-strategy; that's the beauty of Starcraft.

If I were playing Zerg, I would let him build for a while and get Guardians (one of the upgrades from the Mutalisk) and use hydralisks to back them up underneath for air defense. Have an overlord or two follow your Guardians, of course, and it would be the most effective if you had at least twelve Guardians attacking; it gives your opponent a lot less time to react before his cannons are destroyed.
Since you said you were relatively new, I'll explain (or remind you) that Guardians have a longer range than photon cannons, and they have a good attack vs. refire rate. Be prepared for his Corsairs, though, because they'll proabably start attacking positioned between you and the cannons, and they Hydralisks that attack them will likely get destroyed by the cannons. Pull your Guardians back, and then attack with your (already withdrawn since they're for "just in case") hydralisks.

Hope this helps

[FeceMan]

Thanks for the help you guys.

Just to let you know, I kinda got screwed--it was a 256x256 map, so :(.

[Battlecruiser]

most people like me play on fastest speed

when do you not play on fastest speed?

[assassin_666]

bc that was a pointless post

[Battlecruiser]

bc that was a pointless post
which was.

[ZeroDarkStar]

bc that was a pointless post

No it wasn't. He asked a question. It's not like he randomly posted the word "pop", or something.

Plus, it's pointless to point out a pointless post by another user. =P

[Duddits]

Alliteration is awsome. I liked that last post.

Anyway, here is what you do. First arange to buy 3-5 Supersoakers from Wla-Mart. Then have a group of your friends ambush him while he is turtling up in his base. Make sure they spray his computer really good.

You will own him.

[Twitt]

Of course there are things to do; don't be ridiculous. EVERY map has some kind of strategy/counter-strategy; that's the beauty of Starcraft.

If I were playing Zerg, I would let him build for a while and get Guardians (one of the upgrades from the Mutalisk) and use hydralisks to back them up underneath for air defense. Have an overlord or two follow your Guardians, of course, and it would be the most effective if you had at least twelve Guardians attacking; it gives your opponent a lot less time to react before his cannons are destroyed.
Since you said you were relatively new, I'll explain (or remind you) that Guardians have a longer range than photon cannons, and they have a good attack vs. refire rate. Be prepared for his Corsairs, though, because they'll proabably start attacking positioned between you and the cannons, and they Hydralisks that attack them will likely get destroyed by the cannons. Pull your Guardians back, and then attack with your (already withdrawn since they're for "just in case") hydralisks.

Hope this helps

The farther you run from this post, the better off you are. Don't tech all the way to hive to remove a cannon noobie. Mass expand and make a ton of hydra ling. If he is spending his money on cannons, he has jack for units. Take the map and mass up, when your econ is that much larger than his, you can repeatedly send units at him until he dies. It's practically inevitable, unless you're horrible.

Guardians (one of the upgrades from the Mutalisk)


rofl, NO SHIT? t--t

[venom03]

heres my strategie:

guardians and scourages.

guardians to attack ground unit, in my opinion their the best against ground.
scourges to attack air units, in my opinion their the best against air units.

take about 12 guardians and alot of scourges, i say about 2 dozen.

if u are playing in a fastest map ever (money maps), if u want take more.
but if u are playing in a normal map, if he builds lots of photon cannons, chances are he wont have alot of units.

hope this works for u.

[Twitt]

heres my strategie:

guardians and scourages.

guardians to attack ground unit, in my opinion their the best against ground.
scourges to attack air units, in my opinion their the best against air units.

take about 12 guardians and alot of scourges, i say about 2 dozen.

if u are playing in a fastest map ever (money maps), if u want take more.
but if u are playing in a normal map, if he builds lots of photon cannons, chances are he wont have alot of units.

hope this works for u.

Why would you give such horrible horrible advice? Nowhere in his question did he say he was having a problem with corsairs, scout rush or anything other air unit. Guardians are a long ways away to tech to for someone just going cannons. Please post sensible advice if you're going to try to help someone, or else you are going to just make him worse.

[CyNix07]

In a game like this I rush!
Build a Zerg Spawning Pool asap! Then build Zerglings FAST!. send the first 2-3 out as scouts to find him if you don't know wher he is. Once you have 8-12 zerglings, send them all in. Target ALL zerglings at the same target. If he is a good player, you may need 2-3 waves.

Use the first 7 drones on minerals. Use the 8th on the Spawining pool. Then build an overlord. then build drones until the spawning pool is done. When it is done, only build zerglings unless you need an overlord, in which you should build only one.

This has always worked for me, once I got the timing down right. The only time this will not work is if your opponent builds many Zealots, but if he sticks to cannons it will work. If he is not dead after 15 min. you are screwed. :)
Try practicing against the computer until you get as quick and effecient as possible.

[Twitt]

In a game like this I rush!
Build a Zerg Spawning Pool asap! Then build Zerglings FAST!. send the first 2-3 out as scouts to find him if you don't know wher he is. Once you have 8-12 zerglings, send them all in. Target ALL zerglings at the same target. If he is a good player, you may need 2-3 waves.

Use the first 7 drones on minerals. Use the 8th on the Spawining pool. Then build an overlord. then build drones until the spawning pool is done. When it is done, only build zerglings unless you need an overlord, in which you should build only one.

This has always worked for me, once I got the timing down right. The only time this will not work is if your opponent builds many Zealots, but if he sticks to cannons it will work. If he is not dead after 15 min. you are screwed. :)
Try practicing against the computer until you get as quick and effecient as possible.

For the love of god, plz stop. What is with these posts that say if you dont do this, you're owned and practice against the comps and stupid stuff like that. Plz, if you can't post sensible advice, don't.

[agent_CDE]

Look at his pylon placement. If there's a large number of cannons being powered by a single pylon, whitch I doubt, you may be able to disable his defences more easly by taking out the pylon. He clearly actually knows what he's doing and most likely will have multiple pylons though.

[Duddits]

GOGO SCV RUSHES!! THEY TEH ROXX0RZ!! SEND IN 43 OF THEM AND JUST UBER MASS TEH CANNONS!! ROTFLMAO!! CAPS LOCK ROX!! GOGO 0 CLUT!

*cough* Sometimes the inner newb just pops out of me. Anyway... yes, out expand him. He's turtled in, he has minimal resources. You don't. Mass hydra & upgrades.

[super_malfred]

Here's what I would do, but remember I don't claim to be some kind of uberstrategist or anything. Before I start, let me say I'm assuming your playing on a money map (it sounds like you are). Everything below doesn't really apply to regular maps (it can, but you'd have to be a bit trickier).

It sounds like you're letting him build up -- don't. What I would *try* is get absolutely no defense, and get Guardians as fast as possible; like it's been said, he probably doesn't have jack for units anyway, and those mass-cannon people rarely cover their sides in the early game. Try to get 8 Guardians or so in 7 minutes and go from the side where he doesn't have any cannons -- you want to take out his economy first. Put some Mutas in there too, just in case he (by a miracle) has air. Also leave something that can chase down Probes at the enterance of the base, because that's the trouble with Protoss -- a single Probe can raise an entire base at once with the right amount of money.

Anyway, early Guardians is what we used to call it. I can't remember how long my games took with this strategy, but it seems like I was getting guardians just in time to defend the first comp rushes in the custom games. Sorry, I'm too busy to test it out and take any exact measurements, but it seems like the 1 vs. 1 games I used this with didn't last more than 8 or 9 minutes. I could be wrong -- I'm sure that I'm going crazy anyway -- and I'd be more than open to someone calling this whole things stupid and moronic -- I'm just trying to get back in touch with the community again. =)

Oh yeah, one more thing: it's difficult to use this strategy twice against a human opponent. It all depends on how fast you are and what kind of map you're on, but even one of those damn High Templar can mess things up.

This game is really about rolling with the punches, so while the prospect of not having a defense might sound profoundly retarded, if you know beforehand exactly what this guy's gonna do, hit him at his weak-spot. In my quasi-educated guess, the sacrifice of a defence will give you a bit of a boost to hit him where he can't defend early on -- so you wont need one anyway.

I've used the abovementioned strategy on cannon-builders (or whatever you kids call them these days) and it's worked. In fact, IME it works especially well on Protoss.

But like I said, it's about rolling with the punches; don't be rigid enough to not try new stuff or throw something else together on the go.

With that being said, I must add a disclaimer that I only really play casual cooperative games with friends anymore, so if I'm ignorant or cataclysmically retarded or something to new strategies I don't know about, feel free to ignore everything I've typed. =)

Have fun.

[CyNix07]

For the love of god, plz stop. What is with these posts that say if you dont do this, you're owned and practice against the comps and stupid stuff like that. Plz, if you can't post sensible advice, don't.
Hey, just my two cents. I've been playing for four years, and this has worked for me. I can take out three of my teams four opponents in a 4v4 game with this strategy.

I did not say that this was the ONLY route. I said if it does not work for you inside of 15 min. try something else. Don't get so excited.

[Duddits]

Duddits is getting excited! *humps keyboard*

oyhgraeuiruaeykryegraer

Oh yea.... *pure escasy* Yea.. Zerg VS Protoss is hard because zealots are good! Or something along those loophole-ish lines.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

Duddits is getting excited! *humps keyboard*

oyhgraeuiruaeykryegraer

Oh yea.... *pure escasy* Yea.. Zerg VS Protoss is hard because zealots are good! Or something along those loophole-ish lines.

ok dude u seriously need a girlfriend... or at least something 2 hump besides ur keyboard

[dido661]

All you have to do if you only want to defend your base is get some lurkers (Which is a Hydra upgraded) and burrow them in the entrance to your base. If there are more than one just burrow them around your base and put overlords over them so they can detect DT'S problem solved

[Duddits]

ok dude u seriously need a girlfriend... or at least something 2 hump besides ur keyboard
Lol.. I didn't seriously do that. I have a girlfriend that I am quite happy with :D

And even if I was lying to you about that, I'm sure I can find better things than keyboards to beat off to.

[Lord_Sirian]

Twitt, for your information.... Guardians DO work against photon cannons since they have a longer range. Now, what you have to watch out for is the fact that Guardians cant defend themselves against air. Just get any Air to Air unit to back them up. I know Guardians are late game but from what you said he locks himself in with cannons. Guardians could wipe out the cannons with out taking a single hit. If you destroy them 1 at a time.

[Sambo83]

Just build a hatchery outside his base and a bunch of sunken colonies, put lurkers and hydra there. Then take every single expansion on the map.

[SDForce]

Get guardians, destroy main nexus... simple. Then eradicate his scraps... (It works so dont call me a n00b)

[GeneralSmurf]

Heck if all he's doing is building cannons...piss him off. Use a defilers plague and take down their health. He probably won't like that because Protoss do not have techniques to recover health. And the plague capability covers a good area. Oh and parasite an observer of his. But you can avoid doing things like this if you just ling rush him!

[Duddits]

Mass cannons < Mass overloads... ohh yeaaaa

Really, plague his cannons and send in a Ultra-ling attack.

[Valjean]

overlords + Defilers w/ Plague + upgraded mass hydras + upgraded Guardians + expansions = pwnage

:p

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

dark temps + corsairs + scouts + carriers + arbiters with statis... more pwnage

[MnementhDedderath]

Since he seems to have a problem with toss s, go terran and just tank the outta his s...that's my idea.

[Xilo427]

use defilers+lurks, but if he has templar then use lings/ultras with dark/plague (he'll have to storm turrets to kill lings=dead turrets) and never stop attacking. You need to get all the expantion bases if you can, so you can keep sending out waves. Once you throw him off balance, dont stop or all is wasted. Also, if you can get ling rush when he had 1 zelot, then kill probes. have three run around and be annoying to distract. This will slow him down a lot. And use consume. Lings are cheap, eat 3 and then darkswarm. and KILL TEMPLARS. parasite/broodlings work pretty well, or parasite a miner. He probablly wont check those. and upgrade. lings with no upgrades dont do shit in late game. that three extra damage can mean a lot. i've not really been able to do this, cause im bad at micro and usually randomlly throw beginning lings into death, unless a terrean idiot hasnt walled yet (yes, i apparently can get out 6 lings b4 first barracks is done, dont ask me how, cause i dont really know how it works, and it usually doesnt...)

um...is any of this actually good? i've never been able to get to mid game (i hate zelots) so i havent really tried it

[King_Templar]

Err, Psionic Storm doesn't affect buildings. And I would suggest a bunch of Zerglings with some Dark Swarms from defilers. But that's just me. Don't play Zerg much, but...

[PowderBB3D]

Massing cannons, or "cannon street" as I like to call it, is a pretty simple tactic. Simple problems have simple solutions, luckily, so you shouldn't have a big issue with these little photonic devices once you know exactly what you need to do.

The first thing you can do for yourself is realize that cannons are static, or immobile, defense. Once a cannon is placed on the map it stays there. Nobody can move a cannon, so don't expect them to come knocking at your door. So long as you make sure that Mr. Probe does come in your base when you're not looking and start laying down warp rifts you'll be safe from cannons.

Secondly, you should realize that cannons are extremely expensive. They cost 150 minerals which is a pretty hefty investment, and they also require a pylon to power them which is an additional 100 blue backs. Even if you're playing on BGH it'll still take a bit of time to acquire the fiscal backing necessary to mass these little guys, which means, for the most part, your friend will have to skimp on his units. I also see that you do most of the attacking and that he just turtles while your units get wasted at his gates. This is, again, probably because he just can't afford to pay for the units to attack you with since he's busting his wallet on defense.

Thirdly, always remember that while probes are wonderful little robots, they don't have arms or legs or a very good AI. They can't do the things a human can do; most importantly - Protoss cannot repair. Use this to your advantage.

So let's begin.

First skimp on your defense. If you feel defense is really necessary you should abstain from static defense and focus your cash flow on units; preferrably, units you can use later if given the chance. So, throw up a handful of zerglings just in case the nasty Protoss comes knocking. Spread your overlords around your base. This is useful for two reasons. One, corsairs won't be able to annihilate them because splash damage only affects closely lumped units. Two, overlords are detectors and if they are spread out around your base cloakers will not be an issue. Now the fun begins.

A turtler doesn't expand, so you need to do that. Zerg gets a 100 mineral discount on hub buildings (in this case, the hatchery), so establish a secondary and maybe even a tertiary base as soon as the opportunity arises. Put a burrowed zergling at any other main bases to make sure that your enemy doesn't take them. Up your hatchery to a lair once your pool is done, and then throw down a queens nest so you can get a nice, ugly hive. Pull a drone from the minerals or mutate a new one and build a home for your new generals - the defiler den.

Plague is hilarious on Protoss. Get that. Dark swarm is the biggest and best defiler ability in my opinion. Get that. Get consume too, because we want to use your scorpion-like babies as much as possible. Now upgrade your zerglings as necessary; attack is good because you'll have so many zerglings the effect will be huge, but armor isn't really that great since zerglings are so weak anyway and are useful in quantity not quality. You will also want speed and adrenal glands; now you have adrenlings! Move your forces in front of the cannons but just out of range. Throw down a plague on them. Let the cannons deteriorate, and, if necessary, throw down a second or third plague to get all the cannons into the red. Now the cannons will be insanely weak and they can't be repaired! Send your zerglings in with cover of dark swarm if necessary, although weak cannons should not even be an issue for 100 adrenalings. I just included the dark swarm in case you were going to be really skimpy on losses. Use your defiler liberally now, cannibalizing your zerglings (they're extremely cheap and you have plenty) to restore energy. If he has lots of zealots dark swarm is useless, so burrow your guys and plague like a mad man so his zealots will become weakened. If he has lots of dragoons or air units dark swarm all over the place and your adrenalings will become invincible. Cannibalize as necessary and keep up the spell casting. Pretect your defiler, burrowing if he's not in use, and perhaps even having an additional 2-3 of them just in case.

Have fun with it, zerg techs are hilarious.

- P

- P

[Sambo83]

Or your could rush immediately to guardian and kill his cannons within about 10 minutes.

[bluemicrobyte]

Make guardians to defeat cannons

[Zeltaris]

Whoa... powder just won all my respects with that post...
I'M GIVING HIM KARMA! WOOOOOOOO!
Oh wait... how do you do that anyway? Ah, whatever
*Stares at Powder's post*
*drools*

[GiaDragoness]

Well, since everyone else is giving in their stratagies, I might as well mine. I think twitt was pretty striaght on, expand around him if you can, make sure that he does'nt cut you off, because if that happens, it will be very difficult ot navigate around his cannons. I would have to say that defiler will be very excellent against him. You will have to use lings and early units to stop him from expanding as much as possible. Always try to carry a few overlords with you to spot his DT. He tries using corsairs? Devourers will reduce them to a pathetic slow attack speed, in which they already would deal only 3 damage per hit to a unit with ability to heal, come in with hydralisk to finish them, mutalisk are too risky to use against sairs, even if they are spored. Try to use queens for their ensnare if you need them too. To beat this cannon newb, stop him from expanding, use dark swarm and guardians, and support them. Don't for a minute send a single unit in a patch of cannons, that is how the whole cannon wall thing works. *something I just thought of, if he tries to expand, do this: send about 4 lings to each resource node, and burrow them. If mr. probe come along, uborrw and kill it. Even if he has a DT gaurding the probe, 4 should be enough to kill a 40 hit point probe in time. The the may send another, but now you know about it.*

If you go terran, use seige tanks to take out the walls, while using firebats and medics with detection to stop zealots and dark templar from reaching you tanks. Pack some wriath to cloak and take out the sairs if you need it, but if you think you see a cloaked unit, scan sweep, if it's the detector unit, kill it idmediatly, then your enemy can't detect your guys. If your going money map, you also might want to go with BC, but only to yamato arbys, and kill sairs. Look out for scouts too. Just remember, at no time should you ever let anything you have get near those cannons. Then again, you can also try to nuke the cannons feilds. If you are playing on fast money and your terran, Defend yourself, and try to get some interceptors so you don't fall victem to disruption web.

The final note I think would be best, is challange him to a normal game. Everyone's true skill should not be measured on money maps, but on true games. Remember, if this guy just loves to put cannons everywhere, expand early and stop him from extending his cannon reach, then come in with siege class units supported well, and never get close to the cannons fire-range.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

i find that most cannon newbs always leave the rear of their base with no cannons so i just fly in a bunch of mutas and then morph them over his probes lol

[ShadowScout]

Photon Cannons? Please. Use Guardians to kick the crap out of Photon Cannons out of they're range.
As for Corsairs, Disruption Web prevents ranged units from attacking out of it, thus having no effect on Scourge. The problem you're having with that is that Corsairs in groups can kill Scourge before they get close enough.
DTs can be countered by keeping your Overlords spread in a web over your defense and by keeping at least one with every attack force.
HTs are tougher, so target them specifically and try getting Queens with Spawn Broodling to snipe them out while you're attack.
Hope this helps!

[Sambo83]

ShadowScout, do you have a replay of anyone ever using spawn broodling effectively vs templar? If so, please post it.

[Yommit]

Zerg can easily take out protoss, in normal maps or money maps. Stats wise the protoss can only mass about 100 of one unit because their basic attack unit is Zealot(2 supply) Zerg can mass 200 hydras or split it woth 100 lings and 100 hydras and beable to take out any of his defenses w/o using spellcasters.

The key to any Protoss player's success would have to be his expansions, just get rid of his minerals and he wont be able to afford any units, or it will slow him down. With Zerg this i especially easy because they can last a long time with the minerals at their start location.

After you cut his resources just make sure u have some resources and pound him with hydra and zergling assaults, you can even use some mutas and guardians, eventually with no minerals he'll be in a stalemate, so then you'll be able to over come him easily.

Its all about timing, just remember your rush is way faster than his, find him and hit him with the six pool rush early then you wont have any problem.

if that fails all you gotta do is outnumber him, which should be quick and easy. Remember to upgrade ur carapace to help your units to stay in battle longer.

[Sambo83]

Zerg can easily take out protoss, in normal maps or money maps.
Zerg sucks on money maps. Zerg sucks on island maps.

Zerg can mass 200 hydras or split it woth 100 lings and 100 hydras and beable to take out any of his defenses w/o using spellcasters.
Could you upload this replay where zerg just sat around, maxed on hydra or hydra/ling, and then owned the protoss defenses?

After you cut his resources just make sure u have some resources and pound him with hydra and zergling assaults, you can even use some mutas and guardians, eventually with no minerals he'll be in a stalemate, so then you'll be able to over come him easily.

Its all about timing, just remember your rush is way faster than his, find him and hit him with the six pool rush early then you wont have any problem.

if that fails all you gotta do is outnumber him, which should be quick and easy. Remember to upgrade ur carapace to help your units to stay in battle longer.
haha.. would you like to play a game? Do you realize how badly your economy sucks after you 6 pool? If your 6 pool gets owned, there's not going to be any "outnumbering" him. It's going to be make drones as fast as you can and turtle in your base for a while hoping you did enough damage to not get owned in 30 seconds.

[TF-Sasuke]

long post yommit, too bad everything you said was wrong.

[Draix]

If you are playing fastest, well then i don't think their is any advice i can give you because all fastest is, is massing. But in a real game you may wanna get Hydras + Zerglings asap. Now i don't know how fast this person is but i think 12 hydra + 12 zergling with upg may do it. If my tactic was too slow for this freggan cannon rushing deuch bag then just do what zerg are best at, massing, mix units and go for cannons, if you have a good offencive force you shoud be able too do it. :cool: Make sure you have Guardians too.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

Photon Cannons? Please. Use Guardians to kick the crap out of Photon Cannons out of they're range

duh but its funnier to take out everything with guards/mutas first and then his cannons so he can see what a shit load of help his cannons did for him

[Schwitzer]

Well if you're going to wait until late game (i.e. Guardians), you may as well get a Defiler and cast Dark Swarm over all his cannons and run as many Adrenalings at them as you can... that is guaranteed ownage of the cannons, unless he has High Templar with Psionic Storm.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

no generally by that stage he would just have himself about 6 -7 teams of dark templar so i just set lurkers all out the front and overlords to detect them

[NineBall]

make your own map with tricks that only the creator would know.then use those tricks to beat him

[GiaDragoness]

make your own map with tricks that only the creator would know.then use those tricks to beat him
Gee, that was helpfull.

Seriously, just try to starve him out as much as you can from letting him expand, and use siege techniques, such as guardians, properly backed up. Team them up with devourer and they will last longer against corsairs. Just dont use mutalisk against sairs. If anything else, just use terran, with seige tanks, proper back up, and kill any observers that come in, and nuke. The cannon newb's only real strength is in his defense.

No matter what, just use seige units, and protect them. that's basiclly all you have to do.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash: