Best Tank Support

[Dwimmerlaik]

Well I play Terran, but I suck with vults, and because of this I always get creamed by toss (even protoss players even newbier than me, though I can still beat 2 protoss comps melee, but since they're comps so they don't really count =( )
What would you recomend me to do (just to let you know I can't go on B.net at the moment due to the fact that I don't know how to make b.net look for the router to gain acess, yet), sit there and practice (if yes how would you recomend me to practice and could you give me some tips?), or could something like Goliaths work (for early game, though I dout it scince there ground attack kindof sucks...)?

Thanks.

[Jaguar_King]

Well, vultures are quite good against zealots, learn to use them. *Hit and run, lay mines somewhere* Against protoss, you ALWAYS take at least 2 science vessels with you. EMP is just too useful to not take advantage of it.

other than that, go goliaths. The most important thing is to get anti-air support units, cos wraiths or any aerial unit will spell trouble.

[thefazant]

emp is completely useless vs toss, getting emp costs way too much gas which should be used on more tanks.
emp also has a very small aoe and doesnt even do that much, its not such a big problem for the toss that the shields of some of his units are gone.

[t3hflyingcouch]

Er... from my experience, cutting down half a unit's potential HP (Or even a quarter of it) is really helpful, 'specially when it's an area effect.

And go with what Jaguar_King said. Learn to use vultures, or go Goliaths. I'm better with Goliaths myself anyway. ^^

~Couch

[Cpt.Chronic]

Stop talking about EMP. It's useless execpt in very rare situations like mass archon or something, which noone does anyway.

Vs protoss use vultures for support. Lay mines in front of tanks and at your flank then pull back vultures when he attacks and attack the zealots as they go for the tanks.

Vs terran support them with goliaths. This will make it harder for him to drop units on your tanks, plus give support vs wraith, which is quite common in tvt.

Vs zerg support them with m&m. Actually, it's more like support the m&m with tanks because the bulk of your army should be m&m. Here is where science vessels come into play as both irradiate and d-matrix work very well vs zerg.

[Dwimmerlaik]

I'm going to have to go with thefazant's (because I know fazant is an expert) and Cpt. Chronic' advive...
Thanks... I'm going to have to get off now, the class is almost over...

[Jaguar_King]

Cpt Chronic - What do you know? EMP vs toss is the shit. You can tell me if it's useless when you face mass archons/dark archons and/or carriers. Not to mention you WANT vessels for Dark Templar detection too.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Cpt Chronic - What do you know? EMP vs toss is the shit. You can tell me if it's useless when you face mass archons/dark archons and/or carriers. Not to mention you WANT vessels for Dark Templar detection too.
I know that you're a noobie :tdown:

Wanna PvT on b.net? Better watch out though...I might go mass Dark Archons on your ass!

btw, You do NOT use vessels for detection in TvP...well maybe you do, but not anyone that knows how to play the game. Turrets and scans work fine and don't cost an absurd amount of gas-- gas you will need for tanks.

[Jaguar_King]

Talkin about n00bs...

Scans need energy to work, you need the scans to KNOW whats coming from your enemy, not to actually detect dark templars/wraiths/whatever cloaked/burrowed unit is harassing your troops. About the turrets, if you can build (and keep building and/or repair if needed) turrets in your path, that's fine, but no one plays "fastest map ever" or whatever map that allows to collect for such an amount of minerals.

you sound like I was going to do MASS vessels, which is clearly not the case. Get into the context of whats going on next time...

[Cpt.Chronic]

1v1 me later tonight, ok? We can play both PvT and TvP if you like.

my b.net nick is Wake(Sphere) on US East. I'll be on around 10 Eeastern.

If not then, tell me when you can be on.

[Jaguar_King]

I have no access to bnet ATM...

[Cpt.Chronic]

Figures. Have you ever even played on b.net before?

[Jaguar_King]

Who cares, bnet isn't going to work for me anymore *shakes head*

[Cpt.Chronic]

What about bnet-x? Go to www.pgtour.net sign up to their site and download their server (bnet-x).

[Jaguar_King]

Nice, but as much of an excuse does this sound, I don't have the time, nor the will, nor the means to try anything.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Then stop arguing as if your strategy is valid. Unless you can back it up with your own play or provide a replay where it is shown to be effective then you have no room to talk. You're just theorycrafting and wrong.

[Jaguar_King]

So would you trust my replays more than common sense, dude?

Hey, I have a replay where I got to own everybody with mass BCs, so mass BCs MUST be the shit. :confused:

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well considering your argument is completely void of common sense, then yes, I would trust a replay over your common sense, or lack thereof. Do you even know what a tank push is? Do you understand that turrets are a part of any attack (with the exception of harrasment) on a protoss? If it's a slow push you won't even need scan as your turrets should always be within range. If you're doing a fast push you can use scan while your scvs are building turrets. There's absolutely no reason to waste 750 gas to make 2 science vessels w/ emp when that gas could have been used to make 7 more tanks or another factory or two. Now that's common sense.

[Jaguar_King]

Well, NO.

While I agree that I have no means to prove myself right, I still do know how things work, and I fear you're plain wrong. I mean every good Terran player knows comsat scans are used to look into the enemy's bases for holes, info about enemy units' being built, etc. rather than reveal cloaked enemies harrasing you. That's what detector units are for, and Terran's vessel is no exception.

That's not shown in anyone's replay, it's part of knowledge that came across players' experience with the game, trust it or go to hell.

You ALWAYS HAVE GAS, but not always the minerals.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well, NO.

While I agree that I have no means to prove myself right, which makes me a complete douche bag for continuing my argument with you, I still think I'm right and you're wrong.
Well I'm glad we agree on something. You shouldn't argue if you have no way to back up your point. What's funny is that you haven't even asked me to prove my point. Maybe because you know I could provide an endless amount of replays of myself and others that NEVER use sci-vessels vs. protoss in a normal game?

It's people like you that ruin strategy forums. You absolutely suck at this game yet you think you know what you're talking about. Did it ever occur to you that if you suck at the game, then you're doing something wrong, hence you wouldn't know what you're talking about? No, of course not. Instead, you argue with people that are clearly better than you rather than taking their advice to help improve your own game. So yeah, fuck off and keep making science vessels while you try to figure out how to beat the computer 1v1 for all I care.

[Jaguar_King]

Why would I ever ask something to someone who obviously has yet to play the game, it's a full waste of my time.

Do you know what ruins the forums? It's the people that TWIST other people's words....like yourself.

I mean, fuck, you're right. Vultures are completely useless against zealots, goliaths are not good for teaming with tanks, yadda yadda. Silly me! The only thing in that I agree with you is, more posts from my part are going to be quite useless.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Why would I ever ask something to someone who obviously has yet to play the game, it's a full waste of my time.
Wait, what did you ask again? And yes, it would be a waste of your time if you were to do such a thing, which is why you shouldn't answer other peoples' questions, such as Dwim's question in this thread as it is a waste of his time.

I mean, fuck, you're right. Vultures are completely useless against zealots...
Where did I say this? Quote please.

...goliaths are not good for teaming with tanks, yadda yadda.
Actually, tvt is the only time you want to do this (which I mentioned earlier), unless of course the protoss goes for carriers.

I love how you try to change the subject of the argument from whether or not science vessels should be used in TvP to something completely unrelated and irrelevant. Just another sign of you losing the argument. Oh wait, you lost a long time ago when you refused to back up your claim through a 1v1 on b.net-x, and even admitted that you have nothing to back up your claim other than your supposed knowledge of the game. You can go to any StarCraft site and download 100 expert TvP replays and if you're extremely lucky, 1 of them might have a science vessel in it.

[ReD_ICE]

...feel the tension...(im just an audience of the argument...lol :P)

[thefazant]

jaguar_king you have no idea how tvp is supposed to be played.
gas is extremely scarce in this matchup cuz you need it for tanks, upgrades and facs, and you need a good gas supply to pump almost pure gols when he switches to carriers.
you do not need science vessels, emp is useless and mines, turrets provide ample detection against dt.
heres some random tvp replays, examples of how tvp should be played.

[Dwimmerlaik]

And yes, it would be a waste of your time if you were to do such a thing, which is why you shouldn't answer other peoples' questions, such as Dwim's question in this thread as it is a waste of his time.

Yes, it is...
And from every expert replay I saw of tvp not once did I see a Science Vessel, ever made, used, nothing, in fact most of the time I didn't even see the Terran build a Science Faccility, though that may be because the game(s) didn't actually progress into the late game...

Thanks(By thanks I mean thanks Cpt. Chronic and Fazant)...

[ReD_ICE]

science vessels = useful only in tvz, since tvt and tvp would be mech, irradiate is completely useless, and if u think defensive matrix is useful, u might as well use the money for the vessel to get mech units

[ZeroCross]

Actually, I have used EMP against High templar and Arbiters to save my ass a time or two, so don't count out Science vessals completely. Their irradiate has use limited to clumped zealots and dark templar, true, however any player who labels a unit as being completely worthless is clearly going too far.

While it's true, they take a bit more time and effort to manage then just massing tanks, they can be worth the effort if your opponent tries for spellcasters. While normally, Siege tanks can blast any high templar and dark archon that tries to walk up to it, a simple stasis feild works wonders at nutralizing them, and don't give me any shit about "letting your opponent get that far". Besides, you can't always leapfrog your tanks into an enemy's stronghold, which is when High templar and Dark archons will start to be a thorn in your side on any aero assault.

In any case, just because it is not popular, does'nt mean it will never happen. Who's to say your opponent won't switch strats? I mean think about it: if the strat is so universal and widely used, how long will it take for someone to figure out a way around siege tanks & goliath?

Not saying that you're wrong entirely that "7 siege tanks is more valuable than a science vessal TvP" for all I know, tons of protoss players lose every single time a terran whips out siege tanks and goliath, I'm just saying it sounds a bit far fetched that so many battles with expert players go without using advanced units like spellcasters, and just go for brute force with Tanks. Pardon the sterotype, but massing brute force as adversed to cunning tactics with spellcasters does'nt seem to fit the profile of someone who calls themself an "expert" of starcraft. Perhaps that's just the way SC is going these days...I would'nt know, my damn computer won't let me change my port settings to get onto bnet ever since I had to re-install the damn network drivers...

[Cpt.Chronic]

In any case, just because it is not popular, does'nt mean it will never happen. Who's to say your opponent won't switch strats? I mean think about it: if the strat is so universal and widely used, how long will it take for someone to figure out a way around siege tanks & goliath?

For one, its tanks and vultures, not tanks and goliaths (unless of course there are carriers involved). For another, the game of StarCraft has been out so long that all the best strategies are already known through trial and error of the past 7 years. I'm sure some really good players have used science vessels in the past, but it is now known that it is more cost effective to put that gas towards more tanks/factories/upgrades then it is to get vessels.

[Jaguar_King]

You can forget about that guys. It comes down to this: either he's wrong, or all the rest of the world is wrong.

Anyway, for those that care, some random facts off the top of my head:

- Tank/turret push is fuckin' inmobile, prone to corsair's D-web+scouts and/or dragoons, it's either still prone to melee units drops, or takes a ridiculously high amount of minerals.

- MASS sci-vessels would take a lot of gas, I agree. But A FEW of them do NOT, you blind mole!

- Mines are useless against archons

- Actually, Irradiate IS USEFUL against zealots, if you don't know how, go figure that out by yourself.

- Terran in long games (and most TvP matches are long games anyway) always do sci-facility. EVEN IF YOU DID CHOOSE TO NOT DO SCI-VESSELS AT ALL.

[thefazant]

jaguar king you are a fucking retard and you have no idea how fucking good i am at this game.
vessels are freakin useless in tvp, take my word on it.
tank/vult is the way to go, dled those 2 reps i posted and you will know what i mean.

[Jaguar_King]

*raises middlefinger to thefazant, pointing previous post*

[thefazant]

JAGUAR KING
1v1 me right now and i will show you how youre theory strats do not work at all in a real game.
you have no idea how to play this game.
watch my reps and you will know how this game is played on a high level.
you are a fuckin noob who is to afraid to actually play someone.
you suck enormously at this game.

[Jaguar_King]

LOL. I wonder who ever said your playing it "at high levels"

I mean I don't know who you are; you can say you don't know me as well, but I'm not the one who's proclaiming himself as being the ultimate TvP authority

[thefazant]

on this forum, i am the ultimate tvp authority, since there is no one who posts here regularly who can even touch my skill.

[Jaguar_King]

I see no one's backing you up in your gloating...******

[Yaqoob]

Jaguar_King...


on this forum, i am the ultimate tvp authority, since there is no one who posts here regularly who can even touch my skill.
Thats very true....

I see no one's backing you up in your gloating... I guess, I am backing up his gloating/hardcore facts, cause it is clear that thefazant is the best player that regularly posts here.

Second, just shut up. You say terran push is inmobile as if you know better, but this is how the pro plays, but if you think that you know better, then play thefazant 1v1 [He'll do an "inmobile push" on you], and we'll see who wins.

But you use the excuse you have no time, [can't go on BNET], and someone posted the link to PGtours server for you to download, so you can prove yourself, but no time, yet time to check this message board every five mins...

Its clear you are an inexperienced newb, and heck I'll even play you [I suck] and destroy you and your gay Science Vessels with Toss.

Back up your "Strategy" with a Replay [not against a utter newb like you] and you'll be getting somewhere, if not shut up, and stop arguing with thefazant cause he is 1000 times better then you...

[Ahzz]

those strats work actually that jaguar_king posted.
Really, they do!



...On campaigns who any noob can accomplish

[ZeroCross]

Wow. This is getting so out of hand. Jaguar, you really should find a less objective/more polite way of talking on these forums. Even if you are right, no one is going to respect you or you're opinions if you can't speak with civility. Fazant and cpt. chronic, it would'nt hurt the two of you to lay off the language and flaming insults either.

For one, its tanks and vultures, not tanks and goliaths (unless of course there are carriers involved). Tanks and golis because air is involved is what I was referring to. Sorry for being unclear.

For another, the game of StarCraft has been out so long that all the best strategies are already known through trial and error of the past 7 years. I'm sure some really good players have used science vessels in the past, but it is now known that it is more cost effective to put that gas towards more tanks/factories/upgrades then it is to get vessels. A good point. As much as I would like to beleive that the game is perfectly balanced, as there is no true "checkmate" in stratgy match-ups, one does have to calculate human error, and the fact that no human, no matter how wise, will likely ever create the perfect balance. Tis a sad thing to accept.

Personally though, I find it amazing that the game has gone on for this long. Though the programmers were'nt perfect, I think we can all agree that they did a very good job. I wonder how different the control and stratagy for SC2 will be when it comes out.

on this forum, i am the ultimate tvp authority, since there is no one who posts here regularly who can even touch my skill. Odd, I've been under the impression Sambo, Schwitzer, Geno, Gia, you, and Haley were all on the level, without reguard to any one in peticular. I've seen a few of your replays though, and you do seem quite feindishly cunning with those kamakazi SCV scouts, building shields and spider mines on lost temple....most notorious indeed. o.0

jaguar king you are a fucking retard and you have no idea how fucking good i am at this game. vessels are freakin useless in tvp, take my word on it. You proclaim you are good at this game, then in the very next sentence, you deny the terran's flying spellcaster's value against all protoss completely. Forgive the beligerence, but on first glance, that appears as somewhat of an oxymoron.

First off, they are not useless, I assure you. Just because you don't use them, does not mean they have no worth absolutely TvP. You may be good, in fact, you could possibly be the best on the forum, but there is no way you are not good enough to the point where you have such authority as to declare a unit useless. That seems more than a matter of opinion. Which brings me to point 2. Second, were you meaning, "useless" or, "not worth the teching, because there is a more direct solution"?

- Tank/turret push is fuckin' inmobile, prone to corsair's D-web+scouts and/or dragoons, it's either still prone to melee units drops, or takes a ridiculously high amount of minerals. I have seen some push attempts go this way when people start to get notorious with those corsairs.

However, a quick tank push will more than likely knock out the protoss because corsairs are more complicatedly teched to unless the player planned on it from an early stage in the game.
..Secondly, the disruption webs only last for a very short time. Too short, one might even think.
..Third, there is a high, if not indefinate, probability that a corsair will only be able to get off a single web before turrets strike it down.
..Forth, Corsairs have to get out early enough to start charging their batteries. They require alot of energy just to immobilize a couple tanks and maybe one turret per web, which may not even last long enough to get some fighters down to the tanks to engauge them, while the tanks merely have to get out to the feild, and switch modes.
End result, the tanks knock the protoss out before he or she can mount a decent defense utilizing corsairs.

- Mines are useless against archons True, but most TvP players will whip out tanks without reguard to vultures(unless they have zealots) because A, they are easier to use, B, they have more than 3 bullets, and C, they have excellent range. Most the other points you said have some pretty good validity from what I have seen/heard/read/experienced in my day.

[thefazant]

Odd, I've been under the impression Sambo, Schwitzer, Geno, Gia, you, and Haley were all on the level, without reguard to any one in peticular. I've seen a few of your replays though, and you do seem quite feindishly cunning with those kamakazi SCV scouts, building shields and spider mines on lost temple....most notorious indeed. o.0
nope, me and hayley are on the same level, all those others arent near as good as we are, but they arent noobs either (well, sambo isnt, dont know the others)



You proclaim you are good at this game, then in the very next sentence, you deny the terran's flying spellcaster's value against all protoss completely. Forgive the beligerence, but on first glance, that appears as somewhat of an oxymoron.

First off, they are not useless, I assure you. Just because you don't use them, does not mean they have no worth absolutely TvP. You may be good, in fact, you could possibly be the best on the forum, but there is no way you are not good enough to the point where you have such authority as to declare a unit useless. That seems more than a matter of opinion. Which brings me to point 2. Second, were you meaning, "useless" or, "not worth the teching, because there is a more direct solution"?
vessels are useless tvp, this is a fact.
stripping away shields might sound appealing, but emp is NOT worth it.
first of all, you do not have the gas for getting vessels.
tanks cost a lot of gas, facs cost a lot of gas, upgrades cost a lot of gas, you need a good supply of gas to pump almost pure gols when the toss switches to carriers.
you cannot afford to waste gas on vessels.
second, emp is completely overrated, the area of effect is way smaller then the animation shows, and getting rid of shields doesnt even help that much.
vults and tanks OWN at killing shields, its normal hit points they have trouble with, vults and tanks do full dmg against shields, but vults do 1/4d dmg against goons and tanks do 1/2d damage against zeals.
this is youre problem, not shields.
third, the vessel detection is useless, mines, scan and turrets are easily enough detection.
really, in 99% of tvp games you should not get vessels.

[Hayley]

Fazant is right, vessels are very bad in tvt and tvp.. I'm sure there are some situations where one could be useful, but they're so rare it's better to just forget about them.

Jaguar_King, maybe amongst the people you play vessels work in tvp, but they really are not worth the huge gas expenditures. In TvP the terran almost always has excess minerals, since maps normally have a main base with a geyser and then an expo with or without a geyser, and the only way for the terran to take more gas is to take other mains, which is very difficult to do vs a good protoss user. I think it's pretty obvious that with 8 mineral patches for every 1 geyser you're going to end up with excess minerals, since tanks cost almost as much gas as they do minerals, meaning for your 700 gas spent on vessels you'll be out 7 tanks which can make or break a battle.

Also, scan works fine for detection _and_ for scouting.. it's only 50 energy for a scan, and you'll have at least 2 scanners working at all times, plus after you build turrets (which are only 75 minerals, extremely cheap, especially considering you usually have extra minerals in tvp), dark templar usually aren't a problem.

Please consider taking a look at the replays that fazant posted, he really is a very good player, I'm sure you'll learn something from them :)

[Jaguar_King]

Hayley:

Doing extra factories and 7 extra tanks is more wasteful in terms of TIME, than doing 1 or 2 vessels.

Doing a lot of factories = lots of space = base becomes bigger and harder to defend.

Even if you do not tech to vessels, you need the facility anyways (to upgrade weapons/armor for your tanks), but if you're going to do facility anyway, why don't you just do 2 vessels anyway? They're handy, and not that expensive in terms of gas (compared to mass tank anyway)

You always have gas.

7 min patches for every geyser is fine, because you should have 3 scvs collecting gas. 8 patches, you have more minerals than gas.

I dont care how much thefazant is worshipped for every member on this board, for it's clear to me that he's a moron. No one would call a unit being completely useless, and no matter how por your skills a a SC player are, if you are fucking retarded loud-mouthed about it, you are a dick.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Jaguar_King, you're an annoying piece of shit noobie and you have absolutely no clue wtf you're talking about. You may think you know what you're talking about because your strategies work vs computers or other people your skill level, but then again anything would work against a computer or someone your skill level. I could beat you with any and every strategy imaginable, but that doesn't mean that it'd be a good strategy vs someone that's actually good at the game, and that's what we're talking about.

Doing extra factories and 7 extra tanks is more wasteful in terms of TIME, than doing 1 or 2 vessels.
Well considering you should have at least 7 factories after you take your natural and mineral-only expos it shouldn't take very long at all.

Doing a lot of factories = lots of space = base becomes bigger and harder to defend.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yeah, it's much better to work off of one factory and let your resources pile up than it is to build as many factories as your minerals/gas can support....umm, no. More factories = more troops = easier to defend your base.

Even if you do not tech to vessels, you need the facility anyways (to upgrade weapons/armor for your tanks), but if you're going to do facility anyway, why don't you just do 2 vessels anyway? They're handy, and not that expensive in terms of gas (compared to mass tank anyway)
That's like saying since you build an academy for scan you may as well start building medics since you already have the tech. Completely retarded and completely useless.

[Hayley]

Hayley:
Hi.

Doing extra factories and 7 extra tanks is more wasteful in terms of TIME, than doing 1 or 2 vessels.
? I don't understand what you mean by this.. you're should have enough factories so that you can use the gas very quickly.

Doing a lot of factories = lots of space = base becomes bigger and harder to defend.
This is incorrect.. if in TvsP the protoss is attacking your factories, you've likely already lost.. better to build more factories so you have more units to protect them with :)

Even if you do not tech to vessels, you need the facility anyways (to upgrade weapons/armor for your tanks), but if you're going to do facility anyway, why don't you just do 2 vessels anyway? They're handy, and not that expensive in terms of gas (compared to mass tank anyway)
A lot of the time people don't even get upgrades in TvP, but even if you do spending 450 gas for 2 vessels is just a waste; it's 4 less tanks for your army, and they don't do anything other than detection, which can be done better by comsat/turret.

You always have gas.
I don't :(

7 min patches for every geyser is fine, because you should have 3 scvs collecting gas. 8 patches, you have more minerals than gas.
I can't think of any map that has less than 8 mineral patches in your main.. Also, if you have 7 patches you'll get minerals much faster than you'll get gas unless you only build like 10 scvs or something.

I dont care how much thefazant is worshipped for every member on this board, for it's clear to me that he's a moron. No one would call a unit being completely useless, and no matter how por your skills a a SC player are, if you are fucking retarded loud-mouthed about it, you are a dick.
Fazant is a very good player, you should appreciate the fact he takes the time out to help those who aren't as good as him; please don't insult him, that doesn't help you win an argument.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Wow, I'm bitter. Some people bring out the worse in me.

[Jaguar_King]

? I don't understand what you mean by this.. you're should have enough factories so that you can use the gas very quickly.

I mean what I said.


This is incorrect.. if in TvsP the protoss is attacking your factories, you've likely already lost.. better to build more factories so you have more units to protect them with :)

Yeah, protect all your factories, and where is your rush against protoss? Or do you think eternal defense is gonna win you the game?

A lot of the time people don't even get upgrades in TvP, but even if you do spending 450 gas for 2 vessels is just a waste; it's 4 less tanks for your army, and they don't do anything other than detection, which can be done better by comsat/turret.

Now I see you just passed over my previous post, you don't use vessels for detection alone.


I don't :(

Well I do, bear with Blizzard ¬¬


I can't think of any map that has less than 8 mineral patches in your main.. Also, if you have 7 patches you'll get minerals much faster than you'll get gas unless you only build like 10 scvs or something.

Hmmm...default maps included in Starcraft maybe?


Fazant is a very good player, you should appreciate the fact he takes the time out to help those who aren't as good as him; please don't insult him, that doesn't help you win an argument.

He started the insults first.

The good players I had the luck to play with always let other players talk about their skills, instead of themselves. Only scrubs and the such go around proclaiming that they're the best.

[Ahzz]

Yeah, protect all your factories, and where is your rush against protoss? Or do you think eternal defense is gonna win you the game?



ROFL LOL! You just said: Dont make many factories, so your base has more space. Easier to defend. Now you say that :D:D:D:D

[Jaguar_King]

Yeah...and your point is?

[MidnightGladius]

You contradicted yourself point on point.

[Dwimmerlaik]

You always have gas

Yeah, well I'm guessing that you do because you only build like one or two factories, and let your self get over run.

Another thing for every four Science Vessels you'd have to pay the same amount of gas as for nine tanks, but if you want to upgrade them for the crappy emp, you could get a total of 12 tanks. Really whats better: 4 Scince Vessls that can't do much, or 12 tanks?

Also wtf? Aren't you atleast actually going to try to give us some evidence to back yourslf up, and prove you are not completly incorrect (though I'm pretty sure you are), for thfazant has, and he challenged you, but you declined, saying you lack the time, but if you can go here, than surely you could go on b.net for a couple of minutes (I doubt it would take thefazant long to destroy you...)...

[Kingscrab]

Well... after five pages of this thread I'M dying to know the best strategy! ;)
Jaguar you should really just play one of these guys and settle this once and for all. I think you were challenged like three times dude... Time to throw down! I'm just a newb, but from what i've read here, i'd agree that a horde of tanks seems to be a better investment than a couple science vessles.

[Jaguar_King]

Jaguar you should really just play one of these guys and settle this once and for all. I think you were challenged like three times dude... Time to throw down!

Man, and you think I'm not itching about me not being able to go b.net NOW and teach 'em a lesson or two?

It's too easy to find dolt people nowadays.
Just because you're able to access HTML pages, everyone asks "and why don't you come to bnet and play against me".

I'm not able to FTP, IRC or even try games on this computer, GET OVER IT.
Hell, I'm not even able to check these damn boards as periodically as I'd like...

MidnightGladius: I don't see where is the contradiction.

Dwimmer: Just to settle the thing I do 4, maybe 5 factories, but not 7 or 10.

[MidnightGladius]

Hmph.

Quote One: Doing a lot of factories = lots of space = base becomes bigger and harder to defend.

Quote Two: Yeah, protect all your factories, and where is your rush against protoss? Or do you think eternal defense is gonna win you the game?

The implications of the first statement are that a base that's "bigger and harder to defend" is bad. The implications of the second statement are that protecting factories is bad [statement one assumes that you're defending them by saying it would make it harder to defend]. Unless you're trying to say that you're defending only a portion of your factories, that is a contradiction.

Another point is that you (the terran) generally don't rush toss in TvP. You would (usually) push with tanks and other things.

[red_Marvin]

Yeah, protect all your factories, and where is your rush against protoss? Or do you think eternal defense is gonna win you the game?

I'm just a SC newb and this is my first post, but I think my language skills are
sufficient for this. I think he meant:

If you build a lot of factories they take up more space, which needs more defence.
Then it will be harder to build an attacking force due to the defence costing
resources.

Therefor I do not hink they contradict each other.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

yes but the terran push is a combined attack/defence force so as you build your tanks your improving both offensive and defensive skills

[red_Marvin]

I never denied that that was the case, I just tried to clear this misunderstanding up.

[Jaguar_King]

Mad props to red_Marvin as he was the first one in getting what I said.

[MidnightGladius]

That's not true, as you would usually use your offensive force to defend as well.

From my limited experience as terran (play zerg more now) and from watching pro TvP replays, the Terran will defend with tanks/mine and then begin a push with tank/mine/turret. Correct me if I'm wrong. The Terran will then continue building more units at home to either A. reinforce the push (if it looks to be succeeding) or B. defend at home (if it fails).

Confronted with a push, a Protoss will usually not have a way around it short of going air or drops. Again, I'm inviting some flames if I'm wrong. If applied correctly, the Terran should not give the protoss a chance to attack directly at the main production lines anyways. If the protoss can actually strike at them, you've probably lost already. I'm assuming this because in order for a toss to beat a slow push, they'd have to get some more expos and either overrun the push with a mass of units or tech to carriers. Basically it's a race between the Terran getting into the Protoss main and destroying the production buildings there (I'm assuming you'd have put them in the main and not proxied or something like that) and the Protoss getting carriers and out-maneuvering the push.

Therefore, your argument is worthless because you're looking at a foregone conclusion.

[thefazant]

you get as many facs as youre expos and macro can support, getting less facs is completely inefficient.
its even easier to defend more facs then it is to defend less facs, closed, clogged up terran is the best for terran, and btw, the protoss really doesnt have a good air attack except for recall and cars, which are both late game, and you will be prepared for them if you are doing good in the game, shuttles are really inneficient to use for mass drops on land maps.

[ReD_ICE]

lol...this thread is too damn funny...i've nothing to claim, except agree with all others but jaguar, i mean, i've got nothing to say...ur just too damn funny

[Dwimmerlaik]

lol...this thread is too damn funny...i've nothing to claim, except agree with all others but jaguar, i mean, i've got nothing to say...ur just too damn funny

yeah...

[ReD_ICE]

idiocy and stupidity can swallow up a person badly....(sad...)...

[skyglow1]

Lets not be bm and all be friends :D