What Zerg unit counters archons?

[dark-kirby]

I usally play toss vs my friends zerg.I own him with Archons everytime and we've been tryin to find a quick counter for archons but so far we came up with lurkers n hydras but archons usally have lots n goons to bak em up.So what could counter them?

[AntiNeutrino411]

Sunken colonies own archons. Its that simple. Unless you expect the enemy to mass attack you with archons, building too many sunkens is not effective. Then again, the protoss could just use zealots (which are good against sunkens). If you were foolish enough to not build spores as support, its easy to use carriers and scouts and follow it up with the archon.

[Calibur]

I'd suggest a combo of queens and guardians, with the queen you can ensnare the archons causing them to move slowly and thus take longer in reaching the guardians which will in turn have more time to destory the archons without being hurt themselves.

[ReD_ICE]

hydra + ensnare?

[MidnightGladius]

I think hydra-ensnare is better than guardian-ensnare.

You can burrow the first rank, wait for the archon to stand on top of them, unburrow, watch the engine sort out the data, all while your other hydras get free shots. Hydra-ensnare is also more cost-effective, though you do have to watch out for storm and the like.

[AntiNeutrino411]

One of the most annoying things about the game is the time the engine takes to sort out burrowed units. Take advantage of the burrowed hydralisk thing MidnightGladius suggested. Again, sunkens in the back help. Massing hydras is a lot cheaper than massing archons, and you can simply dance hydras with speed upgrade.

[LotN-Elendil]

I agree with both Midnight, AntiNeutrino hyrda and ensnare are good against archons. If the archons are attacking your base sunkens and ensnare will own them like no ones buisness.

[ZeroCross]

The archon's splash will affect burrowed units. Remember that.

By the way, does the archon deal damage under swarm?


In any case, it will be most rare your opponent has the chance, or letalone, is dumb enough to mass archons. You can either try to deny him that chance, or, if he attacks you with the mass archons, then you were hopefully smart enough to see it comming, and fall back to your sunkens wall which will undoubtibly own him. Otherwise, Ensnare with hydras may be the best way. Also, if your opponent managed to get enough archons to pose a threat by a mass of them, you should have enough resources to make a hardy team of ultralisk to kee the archons busy while your snipers clobber.

In any case, the worst possible thing you could send are mutas and lings. Hydras come close if you just mass them in without stratagy or tactics, such as spreading them out a little or flanking. One thing you might be able to do, I don't know to how well it works, it wall them off using lurker eggs. Those things have like an armor of 10, and can withstand attacks almost as good as buildings or ultras.

So yeah, Archons are a bitch for zerg, but terrans have alot more counters to them. That's probably one of the most unbalaced things about SC is that the zerg have no units that are like "make archons cream in their skirts" when they approach. Perhaps it was for the best.

Until SC2, they will be a pain in the ass since they are naturally immune to a great many things. Maelstrom, Lockdown, Irradiate, Spider mines (activating them anyways), Broodling, etc. Augh, there is no way to easily deal with archons. If blizzard did'nt make their HP low, (which is a stat flaw, not a unit design flaw) archons would be too damn overpowered.

[MidnightGladius]

Archons do damage under swarm, but only the splash damage. The point of my burrowing the front rank is that the splash is minimal. Besides, dmg makes the unit unburrow, which is what you want, right :D?

Something that is extremely impractical (yet would theoretically work) would be a wall of hydras constantly morphing and canceling with some sunkens behind them.

[Ahzz]

newbish stuff u talk... Its pretty much ultras + hydra/ ultra/ hydra with micro (run away right away they come close and shoot again. There are some other ways too, but these are the most used and USUALLY the best ways. burrowed hydra LOLOLOL T_T. Think about it, archons can attack straight away, hydras cannot run away properly, and archons will just blow the shit out of them. And I DONT mean situation that you have 20x more hydra than he has archons. Sunks dont own archons. zealot archon own sunk

[ReD_ICE]

we're getting off topic...burrowing ur hydras is absolutely pointless. As I've mentioned in the beginning, ensnare archon(s) and micro ur hydra, thats definitely more practical than burrowing ur hydras, and waiting for ur enemy to take u out 1 by 1. Also, if they mass archons, its best to have at least four times the number of hydras as his army + ensnare.

[LotN-Elendil]

Ok heres the deal, ensnare and sunkens own archons and the topic is archons. The author of this is massing archons. Sunkens do maximum damage to archons so two hits and the archons dead. In reality all you need if our sunkens and the choke of your base and ensnare for a ultimate and extremely cost efficent defense against mass archons.

[ReD_ICE]

when there are a dozen (even 8) archons, 4 sunkens will be in deep shit. ur not getting it. u NEED to have supporting forces such as (as i have been saying) hydras and ensnare.

[MidnightGladius]

I agree with ReD_ICE on this one. Besides, most of what he said in that post was wrong.

[ReD_ICE]

let me add something too, u dont see mass archons in a pvz game anyway, usually it would be zealots + high, i've never seen mass archons in a 1v1 pvz game...seriously, never, only seen it twice, both were pvp.

[DragonPaladin]

You'll want to ambush those archons. For instance, as they come in, position Hydras on the cliffs. Little out of range but still good enough. Then a couple of Lurkers at the entrance wearing them. Don't ever use lings. Unless you have lots and lots of them. The archon's splash is simply horrendous. Hydras firing from behind hatchery and sunken colonies at the side is pretty good to. Try to shield your units with something big and hardy. Like :) the Ultralisks. 400 hp, harder armor, maybe not as much damage. But if you have a couple to block, the Hydralisk sure can cause some damage.

[ReD_ICE]

the topic is not about cliffing...plz, stay on topic. ps. if he drops u, that cliff would be pretty useless, although i have to agree that ultras in the front is not a bad idea =)

[thefazant]

outproduce the toss by outexpanding him, this should be easy as zerg, then mass hydras should beat archon/zeal.
getting a few lurks will help a lot too, space them out outside the toss his choke, he wont be able to move out until he has obs + a few goons (or if his zeal/arch/temp micro is a lot better then youre micro), slow him down by killing his obses with speedovis+scourge or hydra focus fire, make him waste storms by dancing hydras and dodging storms, by the time he moves out you should have 4 gases, hive tech and 2/2 ultra-ling.

[Protoss_Honor]

this is off topic and i beg for forgiveness from the mods and admins but what is micro

[ZergMan]

Micro is short for micromanagement. It's when you, yourself, guide and control a unit or set of units.

Has anyone tried a Lurker/Sunken colony combination vs. archons? Does it work?

[Kabam]

God just get lotsa hydras!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MidnightGladius]

If you "just get lotsa hydras", they'll (hopefully) just stop merging archons and storm them to death.

[Ecthelion]

I agree with the hydra+ensare+sunk strategy. If you wanted, since Defiler plague goes through shields, you could bring him down to 1hp (not that it matters much since the majority of Archon life is shields, but it could save enough time to prevent a unit from dying).

[SpeedyWorm1]

No GOOD player will mass archons.I used to go [in ffa] zealots goons archons and templars.zealots take the heat and the goons are aa.Archons just mope everything.I also would get 4 shuttles and drop 6 goons 6 zealots and 4 archons or something in someones base,then attack from teh front.

Vs mass archons If you go hyrads you NEED ensnare.I would go mass guardians and hydras.Or guards ultras devours,for aa and killing archons.the guards stay behind the ultras and own everything.Just make sure you units are not close to eachother or splash will own them.

[Ahzz]

1. Mass archons are good, but just get them after templar energy goes at the minimum... it also depends from the situation.. like, is he lurker blocking you, or how many exps. But really, mass archon owns zerg usually with zealot and templar.
2. You do not need ensnare. It sucks actually... or maybe it could be useful, but I'd rather spend the money elswhere. Mass archons really... Can be won many ways :O. ill list a few of them
a) ultra+hydra
b) mass ling + mass hydra. Might not work well if the toss has good micro and a good army.
c) just mass hydra, but it usually requires good micro, and more expansions than the toss RUNNING.
d) Fair amount of hydra/lurk ling/lurk, if he hasnt got observer, or your army is well microed and bigger. Usually

3.Sunks vs archon is a stupid idea. Since archons almost always have two times more zealots with them, (atleast...) which means you need a fair amount of sunks. Beside, SC is not defending game, by the zerg. You should be offensive. Why would he send his units into death anyways? :P
1 sunk = 50(drone) + 75(crepp col.) + 50 (sunk) = 175
you would need atleast 10 sunks to destroy a medium sized army properly microed...
10 x 175 = 1750 which is AWFULLY lot of money, and you could spend it to units.

[X-Master2]

I have found that fully upgraded lings, +3 armor and attack plus the speed upgrades can own archons somewhat, you might want to use fully uped mutas to get rid of groups of archons while they are distraced with lings, and then possibly bring in some fully uped hydras for support if you happen to run out of lings.

This is just a raw idea improvising might have to happen to make it successful.

[Ahzz]

it wouldn't be succesful.... -.- NO TOSS will bring only archons. They will have zealots and usually high templar with them. Archons do huge damage AND splash, while zealots keep them away. the thing is, storm eliminates all the lings within seconds, and the few who survive, zealots will take care of. Archons just go and burn down the mutalisks. The splash damage will take care of it, and you need really godly micro to manage to get even a few archons...

[X-Master2]

All that being said if the other player was smart enough to bring more than just archon, besides it was just an idea, it worked for me, but only becuase the other player had an intellect that only rivaled garden tools.

[MidnightGladius]

This may sound absurd, but it works very well (if applicable).

Infested Terrans under swarm. :D

[Spartan-II]

Considering archons splash hit under storm, I doubt the terrans would work. AND if your facing Toss, how would you get Infested Terrans?

[X-Master2]

I don't think anyone ever said there was just two players on the map at once.

[MidnightGladius]

Besides, archons do minimal damage under storm (it's one of those quirks you get to know through playing LotR).

The entire thing was a joke anyways.

[ReD_ICE]

then again, if there were really more than 2 players on that map, considering 4, and there being a zerg and a terran, infested terran is not an impossible solution...

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

its not an impossible solution but it is extremely difficult to get a CC infested in a good game... unless of course you target a new, not very well defended expo... but the odds are still unlikely...

[MidnightGladius]

Didn't I say that was a joke? Don't put so much weight on it.

For that matter, it would work against terran...i guess...

Does marine AI put higher priority on infesteds or ultras?

[ZeroCross]

What the, Dark, did you just say Lings and Muta's against archons? You might want to go try that against a human protoss player and see how that actually turns out first. Archons would own them all very very quickly

I do however, agree with Speedy. No protoss player would be so dumb to mass nothing but archons. Even if they did, by the time they got the resources, you would have already taken the field.

In any case, the normal PvZ strat it Zealots and archons with high templar. If any attack is launched, they try to direct all sunkens to the archons. They will go down in record time. Meanwhile, use lukers to own the zealots. I would then suggest mobile assassins for the high templar. Either Mutalisk aiming directly for the templar, or queens with spawn-broodling.

If you launch the attack, things will be more difficult. Use queens to take out high templar (naturally), then guard the entrance with lurkers (Darkswarm here would be iceing on the cake, as to negate some damage from the archons.) , backed up with Hydralisk and guardians. If you are able to do so without great risk, try and send a drone near the base, then start a hacthery to get some creep up near there base so you can at least form Nydus cannals for re-inforcement, and and Sunken colonies.

[ReD_ICE]

wtf zero, what ur basically saying is "USE ALL UNITS"...thats just plain stupidity. and we also talked about NOT using sunkens as a counter. btw, u said DONT USE mutals against archons, and then u said USE mutals against high templars when there are archons with it, ur just not making any sense here

[mr.nuke]

stupid friend:just fuck em with the queen
me:he says use parsite.......dah......

[MidnightGladius]

Parasite against archons? WTF?!

[ReD_ICE]

dude...whatever u meant mr.nuke....why the hell would u use parasite against archon....honestly, that makes no sense, when the topic is "unit counters archons"...

[Wehrmacht]

I agree with Ahzz and a couple of other people, my personal favorite tactic is to mass the sunkens and use a combination of Ultras and hydras to defeat archons. If u dont mass the archons massed hydras usually will kill an archon before it can atk more than once or twice. I've had people mass archons against me and the only time it didnt work was when i had 4 ultras and 60 hydras(he attacked with 40 archons) i killed most of his archons and had my sunkens finish the rest.

[MidnightGladius]

How in the world did he get 40 archons? Was he stupid enough to actually send them in through the front? I mean, come on, after massing archons, you'll have tons of minerals, so you might as well get some zealots and shuttles.

[Cpt.Chronic]

40 archons would rape 60 hydras so hard it's not even funny. The only way hydras could win is if they are on a cliff and the archons are trying to get up a clogged ramp running around like idiots.

[MidnightGladius]

Cpt.Chronic, I'm wondering how they got 40 archons in the first place.

It's actually possible if the archons are on attack-move command and you micro like crazy.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

the archons might have just been moving instead of attack moving as well... but then he probably wouldnt have lost any hydras unless the toss player realised and started attacking them aimlessly

[Sambo83]

rofl... 40 archons? Is there even enough gas on the map to make 80 templar?

[Ahzz]

heh ;D. and tonnes of minerals stored :O. hmm... 80 x 150 = 12000 gas
takes about 3 vespene gaysers to get that :P.

[MidnightGladius]

Heh in the game between Dunaj and Blackmaster, Blackmaster had around 30,000 gas near the end of the game (of course, it was 3 hours long and he had no minerals left, but it does prove my point).

[GoatseS_BoxeR]

omfg thats like basic, overlord with drones inside damn noob...

[ReD_ICE]

holy shit 30,000 gas? its hard even to reach 10,000 minerals in a normal 1:1 game...lol...oh wait, noob u said? oh, then nevermind

[Ahzz]

no. It's not hard to get 10000 minerals in normal 1v1. you wont even need exps on that, really. The hard thing is, to get 10000 minerals stored without meaning it! :D

[Ecthelion]

The highest 1v1 I ever got was 11000 minerals and 23000 VG. By that time, all the minerals and geysers were depleted, and we each had a standing army of over 180. At this time, we decided it was time to slaughter eachother (I won, cuz Zerg own his Terran ass!)
:_owned:

[MidnightGladius]

Red, if you want, I could post the replay. It's 200 minutes long, but the end is well worth it.

[Ahzz]

hah. Dunaj tactics.....

[ReD_ICE]

wtf?? 200 minutes?!! what the hell were the dudes doing? did they like fall asleep in the middle of the game at the same time or what...and ahzz, thats what i meant ;) 10,000 could get u 66 tanks in terms of minerals, thats an equivlent of 5 and a half groups of tanks...imagine...

[CoolPErson]

You have to use Queen Spawn Broodling. OR else your screwed Sunken colonies alone wont do the trick

[MidnightGladius]

You can't spawn broodling archons...more "useless" lotr knowledge.

ReD, ppl at teamliquid were debating over whether the two players actually alt-tabbed and went out for lunch (or dinner; not sure).

Btw, that game got on sclegacy's pimpest moves 2004! W00T!

[BrotherGreen]

Hydras, easy. Anyone who plays Battlecraft knows that.

[Ecthelion]

Dark Swarm with hydras works best. Lurkers help, along with Sunkens. No good player masses Archons, and, if you're a good Zerg player, you'll hit-and-run them so much they won't be able to.

[Ahzz]

dark swarm hydra LOL! Do you happen to know, that only melee or splash and spells work at dark swarm? Hydras are neither melee or splash archons are. So what is this lame stuff you talk about?

[ReD_ICE]

lol...i had one guy play with me once where he clearly gg-ed, but he wont surrender, he just keeps on building + floating things everywhere...so im like...dude...wtf is with u...its been 40 minutes since ur last cc was destroyed....i guess he wanted to wait till i go out, then gain the cheapass victory, but i just left starcraft running and went out for other things...lol...he left later eventually

[siuloongbao]

Hydras would have to use the ds as cover, rather then using it on the archons...

if you don't u'll get owned.

And i think splash doens't work any more on the new patch.

[MidnightGladius]

It does, but only for splash damage (I think ~1/5). Some more "useless" LotR info.

[siuloongbao]

you're sure about this? I know it used to, but i heard that the patch excluded it or something.

[ReD_ICE]

yeah, i noticed it when my tanks are doing zero damage to enemy lurks under ds, i think its true

[MidnightGladius]

That's only burrowed lurkers under ds (ask fazant, he knows lol).

I'm quite sure because I was playing PotN the other day and my archon did ~1/5 of damage to targets under swarm.

[Ahzz]

lurks under swarm burrowed can only be killed by splash and special abilities (psionic storm, irradiate, etc.)

[Cpt.Chronic]

lurks under swarm burrowed can only be killed by splash and special abilities (psionic storm, irradiate, etc.)
...and melee attacks.

[Ahzz]

yes... forgot about them :P sry

[ReD_ICE]

actually, i (me being a counter) find dark swarm easy to avoid as terran. Reason being you could just retreat from the swarm, and then irradiate his units staying inside the swarm.

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah, it's just that you have to see it coming and respond quickly, or your tanks are screwed.

[ReD_ICE]

exactly...vessels are so damn important in tvz..

[UnHoly-Assassin]

ANY mass numbers of ranged units spread apart p4wns arcons :/

You learn that kind of stuff easily in maps such as Team Micro Arena or Nexus Destroyers

[ReD_ICE]

arena and nexus maps are not exactly realistic...in a real game, the number of ur units depends on ur economy, and the result partly depends on ur micro..

[UnHoly-Assassin]

Yes, but team micro teaches you how to micro your best with only a limited number of units. It's not like those games where you just make tons of units, then place a civ on a beacon and every one of your units charge.

[ReD_ICE]

uh...my point was nexus maps only improve ur micro, but do not provide info of any kind on economy. btw, those are blood and mass maps, those are absolutely pointless and make no contribution to any in-game skills

[CrankyBuddha]

guardians all the way

[MidnightGladius]

That only works if your guardians are on a cliff.

Archon splash = zerg air pwnage.

[ReD_ICE]

plus, psi storm owns guardians, if they choose not to get archons after seeing ur guardians

[loads_of_fun]

theroryecticly whouldent the best stradgy
be to use gards with overlords right before
the attack to draw the fire of arcons+ some
lurks would be a nice addition

[Aquarian]

Why don't any one suggest Ultralisk and mutalisks?
Take mutalisks away when archons approaches.Charge in ultralisks.If more units arrive,bring in the mutalisks.

This might not work if the archons attack the mutalisks first or if he uses archons in the middle of the game.(No ultralisks.)

[ReD_ICE]

remember...its mass archons...i dont think ultralisks are the best counter...u mentioned mutals...well, mutals will be screwed since their attack range is the same as the archon's..

[Fronter]

Actually Archon's attack is more powerful than Mutalisks, and the have great spalsh damage. But I would say Zerg don't fair well against the protoss's Archon, I guess you could have some Guardians, but that's all I can think of. Terrans, on the other hand, can EMP, reducing the Archon to ten health, making it harmless.