Dealing With Tanks

[Vivid_Contrast]

I'm usually Protoss, and can hold my own against other Toss, and Zerg. I have trouble against Terran. Mostly tanks. I try dropping zealots, but that never seems to work. I see pros use storm, but mine doesn't seem as effective. The only way I ever beat Terran with mass tanks is with Carriers. Any general suggestions, or something I should do differently? Any threads like this that you could link me to? I tried the search function, didn't come up with anything.

Thanks,
Vivid.

[Ragnarox]

A few questions first.

1. You use storms but how many do you use?
2. Have you ever tried stasis lock?
3. Ever tried a Reaver Pop?


Anyways, some suggestions that have nothing to do with the three questions are to use Dark Templars. If they have a Science Vessel then use Corsairs to chase it away then move your DT's in quickly under the tanks firing angle.

Use Scouts if you have the resources.

The most effective way is to corner the tanks and ignore them but make your opponent think that you are paying attention to them.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Whatever you do, do not listen to Ragnarox. Everything he said is completely wrong.

One thing you should do when dropping zealots on tanks is drop them in conjunction with an attack so they don't get killed before any damage is dealt. Also, use observers for best places to drop. If you see a mine near a group of tanks, drop 2 zealots right next to the tanks. Just don't drop if there's like 12 vultures right near where you're dropping. Also, once you have speed upgrade for zeals you can drag mines into tanks by using the move command instead of attack-move.

I posted this in a thread about flanking and should help you out when dealing with tanks:

Flanking is basically attacking from multiple sides at the same time, and it is useful in most situations, but especially useful vs terran (PvT, ZvT), as well as vs Protoss in ZvP. First, I will will tell you WHY flanking is good, then I will explain WHEN you should flank, and finally tell you HOW to flank most effectively.

Why:
There are two main reasons you flank. The most important is because it will get all of your units attacking at the same time. Instead of having units getting clogged up behind the units in front (especially melee units), and unable to attack because they are out of range, a good flank will allow all of your units to start attacking at the same time, thus dealing much more damage. The other reason is to distract certain types of attacks, such as tank splash damage and high-templar psi storms. Since units are much more spread out during a flank, it limits the effectiveness of "area" attacks such as the tank splash and psi storm. The splash will only hit a few units at a time instead of your entire army and for storm your units will be spread out to where there will be less units in one particular spot. So instead of killing 8 hydra with one storm, it may only kill 3. Actually, there is one more reason you flank in PvT and that is because when terran pushes they fortify the front of their push with a lot of mines while many times leaving the rear or side of the push mineless so it's a lot easier for your zealots to get in close on the tanks.

When:
The best time to flank a terran for both P and Z is when he is on the move (aka he has just unseiged and is advancing his army towards one of your bases). Although it is possible to flank after he has seiged, it is not as effective. In PvZ and TvZ many times the zerg will be pressured early on with either rines or zealots. The best way to handle this is to have a group of lings outside your choke area, hidden from the terran or toss. When they come to attack at your choke send the hidden group of lings, plus whatever lings you have in your base at the same time, which should trap his force b/n your two forces. As Protoss vs Terran, the best way to beat a tank/vulture push is to use a flank in combination with 1-2 shuttles full of zealots/dts. Send in the flank and drop the zeals/dts at the same time.

How:
To properly flank YOU MUST HOTKEY MULTIPLE GROUPS OF UNITS. Let's use the map LT for example and assume that you have 3 hotkeys worth of units. So lets say we use 1-3 for the units' hotkeys. What you want to do is set up a semi-circle around where the terran is going to come out, with each hotkeyed group making up a point on the semi-circle. The reason you have to use hotkeys is because your units will not all be on the same screen so it would be impossible to send them all to attack at the same time. Also, as P or Z you will want observe terran movement so you can attack as he is on the move. For zerg, set ovies at his choke and in front of your army, for Toss, use observers. Wait for the terran to exit his choke and once he gets out of range of his cliffs (he probably has tanks on them) attack with all your units from all three sides simultaneously. Since your units are already hotkeyed all you have to do is use the mini-map and type "1, a", click on minimap where terran army is located, "2, a", click on minimap where terran army is located, "3, a", click on minimap where terran army is located, and there you have it. I also hotkey my shuttle(s) to "5" so after I tell my armies to attack I will hit "5" and right click to the terran army and drop my zealots on seiged tanks.

[ReD_ICE]

for tank....
1) Terran: Tank / Medic
2) Protoss: Zealot / Shuttle
3) Zerg: Mutal / Zergling

[Ragnarox]

Whatever you do, do not listen to Ragnarox. Everything he said is completely wrong.

Oh thats harsh man...It works for me.

It worked when somebody did it ON me too.

[ReD_ICE]

lol...there's many ways to deal with tanks...so...nobody is really wrong on this...it depends on the situation...

[Sambo83]

I'm sure Cappy's post that is too long for me to read explains it correctly and very well.. ragnarok is wrong =/

Red Ice, come play!

[zemagicmaster]

I think the best way do deal with tanks are:
PvT= zealots or carriers or DT (make sure they dont have an observer or your just a side course-- not even a meal)
ZvT= mutas or guardians or lings with adrenal and +3 to attack
TvT= if theyre not microing, then rines and medics or wraiths( +8 for it to be fast) or stimmed firebats and medics(unlikely but works)

[Schwitzer]

I think the best way do deal with tanks are:
PvT= zealots or carriers or DT (make sure they dont have an observer or your just a side course-- not even a meal)
And Terrans have Observers... how?

[Sambo83]

TvT= if theyre not microing, then rines and medics or wraiths( +8 for it to be fast) or stimmed firebats and medics(unlikely but works)
This is possibly the closest thing to the exact opposite of what you should do.

[Subjukator]

i agree with with sambo said about zemagicmaster. tanks EAT infantry. One hit from ONE seige tank in the middle of your infantry kills about 3-5 of them depending on group tightness.

and i think everyone appears to be missing the much easier way for dealing with a terran person deploying tanks: Disruption Web by the Corsair. Cheap and effective with multiple other uses as well.

The shuttle method I deem too expensive to deal with seiged tanks. Your bound to lose a 200 mineral shuttle depending on Terran support units and depending on the groupage/n00bage of your opponent, will not PERMANENTLY stop your tank problem. The shuttle method might take out a couple tanks due to the splash damage as surrounding seiged tanks attempt to get at the intruding unit admist their ranks but you won't be able to nab all the tanks.

But, if you INSIST on using the shuttle method, use a little micro and coordinate strikes on the seiged tanks. Drop your zealots/DT's in the seiged tank's ranks while simultaneously moving in with whatever regular troops you got.

Or just use corsair disruption web and do the same simultaneously moving thing as well.

[Cpt.Chronic]

You can't use disruption web vs a good terran because he'll just fast push you and you won't have enough units to counter it because you've spent your minerals on trying to get corsairs, stargate(s), a fleet beacon, and disruption web upgrade. Not to mention you can only cast one web per sair and you have to wait a substatial amount of time to gather enough energy for that one web.

[Sambo83]

Well... you can use it.. a lot of good players do, but I guess more precisely, newbs can't use it.

It's a lot harder to do than it used to be because dweb is so short now. You used to be able to web everything, then attack move in, but now you have to web as you go.

[ReD_ICE]

when does making a shuttle became "too expensive" compared to the cost of a corsair + upgrading web + energy of web?

[Sambo83]

Never. If they spent that much money on defensive structures, then don't even try to drop, your time and effort is better spent elsewhere. To end the game vs an idiot turtle who is still clinging to an island, just use hallucinate and an arbitor.

[Kingscrab]

Well, i don't play much against human enemies... I prefer to fight the Insane AI. I CAN tell you that vs. seige tanks, psionic storm houses pretty fast. You need a FEW templars (or "zappies" as i like call them...) though, to really fry the tanks up proper. Of course, Insane AI is predictable if you play it enough... Another option: a few scouts can respond pretty quickly when the tanks start pummeling your defenses. As long as the rest of the computer's attack force is getting handled by your home defense, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. (either of these two unit types will counter the Insane flyer wave pretty good as well) The zealot shuttle drop sounds pretty cool, but i prefer to build multi use units that can hit ground or air targets. But back on track here, yes, the shuttle drop sounds like it would smoke a bunch of seige tanks pretty quickly... i have to try it sometime. :)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Another option: a few scouts can respond pretty quickly when the tanks start pummeling your defenses. As long as the rest of the computer's attack force is getting handled by your home defense, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. Scouts are a really bad idea. I always give off a slight chuckle when I play some noob that goes scouts against my tank push. As their scouts take 2 minutes to kill a tank I will construct a couple of turrets in 30 seconds and have their base destoryed by the time it would take a scout to kill a tank.

What works even better than zealots in a shuttle are dts in a shuttle, especially if you want to fast expo or double expo (which means you'll have a lower unit count than the terran). You can just drop the dts on the tanks (or the scvs building turrets) and pick them back up when he scans. You can stall a fast tank push in this manner until you have enough ground forces to push him back and hold the middle. This method also gives you the option of dt dropping the terran main or stalling his expo with a dt drop.

[Schwitzer]

Another option: a few scouts can respond pretty quickly when the tanks start pummeling your defenses.
That's a lot of resources spent on a virtually useless counter.

The zealot shuttle drop sounds pretty cool, but i prefer to build multi use units that can hit ground or air targets.
Yes, well... whilst you're building Dragoons and Scouts your base is rapidly being blasted off the map by a mass of ground-only attacking Seige Tanks. Oh, and Tanks > Dragoons. You need Zealots or Dark Templar.

[ZeroCross]

I think the best way do deal with tanks are:
PvT= zealots or carriers or DT (make sure they dont have an observer or your just a side course-- not even a meal)
ZvT= mutas or guardians or lings with adrenal and +3 to attack
TvT= if theyre not microing, then rines and medics or wraiths( +8 for it to be fast) or stimmed firebats and medics(unlikely but works)
I have seen you post stratagies liek this before. Attack with a more advanced unit than their's. This is not very viable, because by the time you get carriers, If the terran is'nt already knocking down your pathetic row of photon cannons, he will have enough goliath and or air support to at the very least give more of a serious fight than you should have to take.

Also, be very carefull when using lings with tanks. Tanks can own a ling in a single shot. While flanking them is a nasty antidote to them, your lings will stll be useless if they can't get close.

And by the way, Terran infantry have at least 40 HP guys. A tank blast will deal him/her at most 35 unless upgrades are factored in.

[MidnightGladius]

Well, i don't play much against human enemies... I prefer to fight the Insane AI. I CAN tell you that vs. seige tanks, psionic storm houses pretty fast. You need a FEW templars (or "zappies" as i like call them...) though, to really fry the tanks up proper. Of course, Insane AI is predictable if you play it enough... Another option: a few scouts can respond pretty quickly when the tanks start pummeling your defenses. As long as the rest of the computer's attack force is getting handled by your home defense, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. (either of these two unit types will counter the Insane flyer wave pretty good as well) The zealot shuttle drop sounds pretty cool, but i prefer to build multi use units that can hit ground or air targets. But back on track here, yes, the shuttle drop sounds like it would smoke a bunch of seige tanks pretty quickly... i have to try it sometime. :)
If that isn't the worst strategy I've ever seen...

1. Your first sentence already proves the newb you are.
2. While storm can kill tanks before they get out of it, it isn't exactly the best strategy as your templar tend to die before getting the storm off.
3. Of course. All AIs are predictable. If they're Terran, just build a gas structure on their geyser and watch them fail to do anything besides attack it with one rine.
4. By the time your scouts can kill a tank, they could have waltzed in, killed half your base, and waltzed out (if they didn't feel like staying and killing the other half). And if you mass scouts, lockdown and goliaths will kill you like silly.
5. Of course, a CPU would mindlessly through soldiers at you, leaving their tanks undefended... Try playing a human sometimes, Kingscrab.
6. I'm assuming you mean temps and scouts can kill Terran air. Now remind me where you're getting all this gas?
7. Anyone with a bit of intelligence would A. hunt down your temps with cloaked wraiths, destroy your goons with their tank push (and mines, too), and C. deny you the expos necessary to get a large force of scouts (unless you're playing on money... ugh)
8. Shuttle drop zlots is only good because of its cost-efficiency and the fact that it's proven to work. It still won't "smoke [them] pretty quickly". It's just a delay tactic (or, if you're really good, you might be able to push back a tank push with nothing but zlot drops. Haven't seen anyone do it yet. If anyone has a rep, I'd like to see it).

Yes I know this was extremely deragatory, but I'm in a very bad mood today. This idiocy was just the last straw.

[Kingscrab]

Wow... I'm speechless. Anyone bring a rope? Looks like a proper lynch mob out there. So much the friendly starcraft atmosphere. Lame. Sorry if you're in a bad mood Midnightwhoever, but there's no need to be SO rude. That's okay... I suppose It's easy to be a dick to a faceless computer screen... Just for the record, i DID disclaim my strategy (shitty or not) by explaining that it seems to work ONLY against AI. And it DOES work... against AI... One more time for those who missed it... Against AI. No, i don't play a lot against human opponents. Sorry man. I don't really care. I've been enjoying the game this way for years. Who says you have to play against humans to have fun? So yes, i guess i'm a "newbie" in that regard. Bummer. Now, to answer about Templars, I have noticed that AI in general does not seem go after templars as a first priority. They typically go after cannons and stuff that is shooting at them. So, yes the templars usually DO get plenty of chances to fry away. (against AI) Yes, you are right: the computer AI is not very smart. It will throw its army at you to the last man, (including their anti-air goliaths) leaving the tanks in a big clump on the outskirts of the battlefield; since their goliaths are then dead, this makes them vulnerable to air attacks... (like scouts.. although yes, i admit, they DO take a long time to pick away at tanks and kill them, so maybe they aint such a good idea after all) SO, VIVID, if you mostly play against AI, my paltry strategies might be worth a shot. If you prefer to play human enemies, i will humbly admit that there are plenty of others MUCH wiser than I who can advise you...

[Cross_Fire]

Ok we arnt talking about how to counter a comp. We are talking about countering a human player. Humans are much more deceptive and complicated the comps, no matter how "insaine" they are.

Besides, why post a strategy that only works on comps, when that wasnt even the question?

[Sambo83]

Do you ever lose to the computer? If not, how is it fun? Before you start playing you know you're going to win. Also, this thread and all others in this forum are about person vs person or in some cases people vs people on limited maps. If you want to talk about your great comp stomp strategy or your money map mastery, do so in the "Starcraft Debreifing Room." There you may comfortably interact with other newbs such as yourself without ridicule.

[Kingscrab]

Okay. No problem. I didn't realize this strategy forum was specific to human vs human strategies. It doesn't say so on the main page. Perhaps i missed it. Sorry. I'm obviously new to the site. My main point is that starcraft is supposed to be about fun, and obviously different people are going to enjoy different aspects of the game. There's no need for anyone to be a jerk about it simply because someone else is a newb to a certain aspect of the game. How does this encourage people to want to learn more about the game, or even voice an opinion on this site at all? I understand that if someone says something truly offensive or inflamatory, then they deserve what they get, but other than that, what's the big deal?

[Ahzz]

or even voice an opinion on this site at all?Well, thats what forums are. It's just that why start talking nonsense when you're not sure even yourself if its right or wrong?

[ZeroCross]

Wow... I'm speechless. Anyone bring a rope? Looks like a proper lynch mob out there. So much the friendly starcraft atmosphere. Yeah, some people here are'nt too freindly. It was nice of you not to retaliate with your own insult.

It will throw its army at you to the last man, (including their anti-air goliaths) leaving the tanks in a big clump on the outskirts of the battlefield; Ha ha, Goliaths, themselves, take the award for "Dumbest Unit AI in the game" In case you did'nt know. The worst problem to a terran going Goli-Tank push is first off: Zergling or Zealot enmasse coming on them too fast, or, the goliath simply walking right into the damn cannons your tanks are poised to take out.

Okay. No problem. I didn't realize this strategy forum was specific to human vs human strategies. It doesn't say so on the main page. Well, to be honest, he does kinda have a point here. In any case Kingcrab, I would suggest you stay away from sambo. He is painted in the blood of the thousands of newbs he hunts with a vengence. lol.

Case in point, people here disrespect the comp as a predictible, lame, and unworthy opponent. I suppose this is really only because gaining experience agaisnt a computer player will mislead your stratagies when you fight a human player. Humans will do some pretty crazy shit, whereas computers only reley on a few dozen randomized scripts.

[Kingscrab]

Thanks ZeroCross. I appreciate your tolerance to yours truly newbie! I think the computer can be a challenge at times, and there are plenty of maps out there to enjoy. Perhaps i will delve into the realm of "vs. human" in the future, and I'm sure it would throw all strategies i am used to out the window... For now i will read the forums and learn. (and of course, save myself the shame of getting utterly housed on battle.net) :o

- Kingscrab

[MidnightGladius]

Well, looking in hindsight, I am quite sorry for my comments. Taking into consideration your points, I must agree that your theories may be feasible based on their contexts. Besides that, the others here are also correct...except for ZeroCross on a minor thing: Sambo does not hunt down newbs. He helps them.

[Sambo83]

I slaughter all newbies, wtf are you talking about.

Kingscrab, of course you are right. It is best to only play against opponents you can easily beat, such as the computer, to improve your skill and increase your fun.

[ZeroCross]

Kingscrab, of course you are right. It is best to only play against opponents you can easily beat, such as the computer, to improve your skill and increase your fun. My spidey sense is tingling! Sarcasm has been detected at 12 o'clock batman! (god, that sounded gay...)

[Sambo83]

that sounded gay
Not an atypical thing for your posts.

[Cpt.Chronic]

1. Your first sentence already proves the newb you are. What...you think you're not a noob?
2. While storm can kill tanks before they get out of it, it isn't exactly the best strategy as your templar tend to die before getting the storm off. Yes, because people always attack tanks with hightemplars by themselves and never use other troops that automatically draw the ai's fire.

4. ...And if you mass scouts, lockdown and goliaths will kill you like silly. Yeah, my first thought when I see scouts is I better get them ghosts producing or else I'm toast.
5. Of course, a CPU would mindlessly through soldiers at you, leaving their tanks undefended... Try playing a human sometimes, Kingscrab. You mean you've actually played humans before...hmmm...it doesn't show.
6. I'm assuming you mean temps and scouts can kill Terran air. Now remind me where you're getting all this gas? Oh, that's right, he doesn't have enough gas for scouts, but you have enough for ghosts...yeah, ok, good argument.
7. Anyone with a bit of intelligence would A. hunt down your temps with cloaked wraiths, destroy your goons with their tank push (and mines, too), and C. deny you the expos necessary to get a large force of scouts (unless you're playing on money... ugh) Anyone with a bit of intelligence would know that "B" comes between "A" and "C" and that hunting temps with wraiths is the stupidest fucking strategy ever.

Good day.

[Cross_Fire]

Good day.
The sarcasim is stinging me over here....

[Sambo83]

lol... aww Cappy that was mean (but funny).. at least he's trying to fit in though. :)

[Kingscrab]

My spidey sense is tingling! Sarcasm has been detected at 12 o'clock batman! (god, that sounded gay...)
Sarcasm indeed... Well Sambo, i'm sure slaughtering newbs is probably about as fun and validating as playing weak AI. Keep honing your skills.

I have played many 1P downloaded AI maps that have been quite challenging and fun. Please design one you and i'll tell you what i think.

- Kingscrab

ps... MidnightGladius, no worries man... i'm over it...

[Cross_Fire]

Sarcasm indeed... Well Sambo, i'm sure slaughtering newbs is probably about as fun and validating as playing weak AI. Keep honing your skills.

What? Sambo dosnt HUNT them down, if they go to him he will play them. I seriously doubt that he will go hunt them. That would be a waist of time.

[ZeroCross]

Not an atypical thing for your posts. Cheap shot bastard.

[Sambo83]

You're right cross-fire.. I usually just slaughter them when they wander into my path, especially if they think they are good. I don't actively seek them out.

[MidnightGladius]

Well, Schwitzer, I just wanted to avoid a flame war.

[Schwitzer]

Well, Schwitzer, I just wanted to avoid a flame war.
I'm sure spam is a fantastic flame-war retardent.

[MidnightGladius]

You're saying it isn't? I don't see a flame war. Had I continued my arguing, I am not sure if the same could be said.

[Schwitzer]

"By not arguing, I prevented a flame war!"

That's nice. Don't spam.

[Sambo83]

midnight, often the only way that newbies learn is through the almight "flame war." Trying to act like you are above it, just makes me think you are a moron.

[MidnightGladius]

In any case, I'm stepping out of this argument. Short form is: you're right, I'm wrong. Happy now?

I also apologize to anyone who I may or may not have offended.

Oh and by the way, Sambo, I realize that while you may be right, I simply don't have the patience for it now.

[ReD_ICE]

uh....Well SOMEbody's getting emotional...