Please help me I don't know what i did wrong

[Alexisonfire]

Can u help me what did I do wrong?

I'm orange btw

[Sambo83]

5:15 - Since you aren't pressuring T at all, you don't know that he is with only 1 fact. If you put some pressure on his wall, you would realize this from his unit count, and would know that you can just pump out of 1 gate for now and take your expo. He's getting ahead in resources. Instead you built a 3rd gate which I would consider way too early unless T is 2 fact pure tank (not a very likely opening on bifrost).

9:00 - You have like 4 probes in your main. You transfered way too many.

10:00 - You have amassed 1200 minerals during th e first skirmish. You should be pumping zealots while fighting, not queue them up after it's over. Work on your macro tasks more. I don't know if you already do this, but give a few gateways hotkeys, and hotkey 2 of your nexii for better probe production. Consciously think about maintaining constant unit production while battles are happening.

12:30 - You don't need 4500 cannons at your new expo. Just move some goons in to fend off those vultures and make like 3 cannons tops to ward off any future vultures or drops. Also, during the fighting, your macro has suffered again. Also, you've had 3 mining bases for 4 minutes now, and you're still working off 5 gateways. You should really have more like 9-12. On bifrost I like to build them in that middle area just outside the opening to your base, and rally just outside that larger choke into the main center.

14:00 - You haven't made a probe for a while now. I think your main problem seems to be multitasking. You need to work on maintaining your macro while you fight the battle. I suggest that you play some practice games.. (maybe like 20-50 depending on how fast you get it) where you hotkey gateways at 1-8, and nexus at 9 and 0. Work on maintaining that production. Once you have the hang of it, develop a hotkey setup that you're comfortable with: soemthing like units 1-3, gateways 4-7, shuttle 8, nexus 9 and 0.

15:30 - The T has a million tanks. Why are you pure goon? You need to scout a little better and think about your unit choice. You made a templar archive, but I don't see any templar. When you get your archive, you should make a few templar, since you have the gas.. keep a few with your main group to storm bunched tanks, and use a few to execute storm drops on the Ts workers. The main thing in PvT is staying ahead of T in resources. If he can outproduce you, there's little chance to catch up once he has fortified a position with tanks. By now you should've been thinking about what you're going to do to combat the late game T. AKA you need to be teching to carrier or arbitor: the units capable of neutralizing massive groups of tanks. But you've made no progress toward this end.

Also, you need way more probes.

16:30 DT was the wrong choice. Although you've pretty much lost at this point anyhow, with massive numbers of vultures laying mines, and his scans, your DTs won't do anything at all unless you use them in concert with a shuttle picking them up when he scans.

19:00 Hell, I think you might've been able to win that fight. You should've sent like 1/3 your force up past your gas nat, over the ramps and down into where your top expo is, then attack across that bridge just after your main army comes from your choke. When all your zealots died, you should've retreated your goons and waited for more zealots, you still have a fighting chance, although I think you could've owned him if you had decided to tech to arbitor around the 12 minute mark. You'd have like 2 arbitors with stasis by now, and would've easily taken back the center.

This is a gg by the way, I suggest you guys download it and watch it.. Most people here can learn a lot from either side of this game.

[Calibius]

dude it was a good game
Sambo's advice is GOLDEN
I saw you on us east to day at about 9:00 pm central
I messaged you but you left

[Killphill]

I liked that game, very interesting, brown was good. You should have pressed more, you just ran from him and let him take the bridge... close to the end.

[Schwitzer]

Mmm... I'll watch the replay now.

However, Sambo, being a much better player than me, generally doesn't leave me anything much to suggest after his first post, heh. If I can think of anything I'll add it, but don't get your hopes up :)

[Sambo83]

lol sorry schwitzer, from now on I'll give you a day to respond before I post my advice. :)

[Schwitzer]

lol sorry schwitzer, from now on I'll give you a day to respond before I post my advice. :)
Hell no; don't wait for me. :)

That was a good replay, by the way. The Terran player was really good...

[Alexisonfire]

Ya i know that i hate that British guy always beats me ><

Oh and thanx for the tips i know i have always had a problem multitasking because i'm really slow

[Sambo83]

heh.. well don't get discouraged. I have like 90 apm and I can multitask 10x better than that, and Fazant has like 110apm and he can multitask 10x better than me.

[Alexisonfire]

I know but in the 6 months i'v been playing i havn't been able to brake 100 apm ever and i'm so inconstant 1 game i'll get 70 apm then the next i'll get like 95 lol

[Schwitzer]

The best way to improve APM is to issue the same command several times. Why tell your units to move somewhere once when you can tell them to go there fifty times in a few seconds?

I personally don't value APM very much for this exact reason. Worry about your gameplay more :)

[Alexisonfire]

Ok... so hows my game play looking?

[Sambo83]

I know but in the 6 months i'v been playing i havn't been able to brake 100 apm ever and i'm so inconstant 1 game i'll get 70 apm then the next i'll get like 95 lol
Well, you're doing really well for only 6 months.

The best way to improve APM is to issue the same command several times. Why tell your units to move somewhere once when you can tell them to go there fifty times in a few seconds?
lol... have you ever tried to move a group of goons down your ramp by clicking once? They run around around for like 45 seconds blocking each other.

[Schwitzer]

lol... have you ever tried to move a group of goons down your ramp by clicking once? They run around around for like 45 seconds blocking each other.
Well... that's an exception. It's not my fault the Dragoon AI is completely stupid. :P

[Cpt.Chronic]

Stop playing bifrost if you're gonna PvT. It favors Terran more than any map I can think of in that matchup.

[Sambo83]

... Bifrost is one of the most balanced maps for all matchups.

Maps like vertigo favor Terran. or Gorky

[Alexisonfire]

... Bifrost is one of the most balanced maps for all matchups.

Maps like vertigo favor Terran. or GorkyYa Bifrost is almost perfectly balenced. Also i played gorky once that is the worst map i have ever played, blizzard has made better maps then that crap. As for vertigo i have never heard of it

[Sambo83]

Vertigo is fun for PvZ.. it's that blue tileset, and it looks like you're down in a volcano.. There's a ramp up to a ledge which you can walk around on and get to your natural expo, and then a ramp down from there leading into the center of the map, so you can fast expo vs zerg, and they can only take 1 expo as well.

Gorky would be cool if there were a ramp from your main up to that expo behind it. As it is, it's kindof a dumb map.

[thefazant]

pvz is incredibly imbalanced on bifrost

[The_Pawn]

pvz is incredibly imbalanced on bifrost Wtf, you state an opinion that is contrary to something stated before and you don't even explain? Most intelligent.

Stop playing bifrost if you're gonna PvT. It favors Terran more than any map I can think of in that matchup. How about LT, Terran 3:o'clock, Protoss noon?

[Sambo83]

PvZ really isn't imbalanced on Bifrost. It's certainly more balanced than nostalgia. Toss gets an expo much more easily than on temple, and gas expo isn't hard to take with cannons either. It just requires you to play a little smarter to make suer ling don't spank around in your base.

[theblueknight]

terran can get a good advantage on any base in lost temple

[Sambo83]

Any race can get a good advantage from any base on any map....

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

its worse when terrans at noon and toss at 3... they can constantly use tanks against the geyser in your main

[Sambo83]

lol... then you're playing a shitty version of temple. All decent versions have that particular cheese fixed. But even if you are playing on a shitty version of temple P at 12 is still far worse. You don't really NEED that gas in your 3 main.. the majority of your army will be mineral based. It's a lot worse when terran is at 3 because he can use tanks in his main to cutoff reinforcements from your base. Inevitably he will push into your main unless you're just way better than him.

[thefazant]

pvz is incredibly balanced on nostalgia, but also incredibly imbalanced on bifrost

[Sambo83]

PvZ is imbalanced on nostalgia because it's very difficult for toss to acquire a 2nd gas. Therefore he can't make enough templar, and he definately can't go goon/temp.

PvZ is balanced on bifrost because the short distance between bases makes up for the fact that ling can get into your base and toss can take an easy mineral expo, and gas is easier to get than on nostalgia.

Now if you want to provide some reasons rather than blanket statements I'll be glad to point out where you're mistaken and perhaps find some statistics to back up my claim.

[MidnightGladius]

TvZ 3-12 tank push is unstoppable with goliaths in dropships and speedy vultures.

EDIT: Sorry, let me rephrase that.

TvZ 3-12 tank push is almost unstoppable with goliaths in dropships and speedy vultures.

[Alexisonfire]

hey can someone post a pvz replay were p goes fast cannon expo i really don't know how to fast connon expo rite

[Sambo83]

TvZ 3-12 tank push is almost unstoppable with goliaths in dropships and speedy vultures. It's easy to stop, you just make mutalisks. -_-

Alex, here is rep.

[thefazant]

sambo, just look up some progamer league stats on tl.net, and youll see that nostalgia is the most balanced map there is, balanced for every matchup, youll also see that bifrost is the second hardest map for pvz, only mercury is harder.
the lack of gas on nostalgia affects zerg as much as it affects toss, hell be forced to go either lurk ling, which you can counter with zeal arch, or mass hydra, which you can counter with zeal temp, you only need goons on lt style maps where you need them to break a lurk contain.
i honestly dont think you can point out any sc related mistakes to me seeing how i am ten times better then you at this game.

2 reps of cannon expo pvz on nostalgia attached btw for whoever asked them, both against incredibly good players, i thought i had a lot more, but i think i deleted all my reps a month ago or smth, maybe on my comp at my appartment.

[Valjean]

seeing how i am ten times better then you at this game.
Now you both need to 1v1. :P

[Alexisonfire]

thank you for the help with the replays ^^

[MidnightGladius]

Oh I'm sorry. I meant TvP lol

[Sambo83]

I wouldn't exactly call zeal/temp a "counter" to mass hydra. I could post some of my newbie replays to prove this concept but I'm sure it would just be met with a dispariging remark.

No gas at natural has always affected the matchups the same way. PvT is much easier because of lack of tanks, PvZ is harder because just don't have enough gas.

I will certainly look at the statistics for these maps and see if what you say is true.

Now you both need to 1v1.
No need. Fazant is pretty good at sc which is why I find it hard to believe that he lacks understanding in some of the matchups. For example, fazant doesn't think mass reaver is the counter to ultra/ling.

Oh I'm sorry. I meant TvP lol
Yes, terran at 3 toss at 12 it is completely unstoppable unless you'er way better than your opponent. All you have to do though is do an early expo build where you take 9 immediately and build all your tech over there.. treat 12 as an expansion and just try to mine it out before he pushes into it.

[Alexisonfire]

do u have a replay u can show us of this tvp haivng p at 12 and t at 3? lol i suck i need some way to learn

[Sambo83]

I posted a really good one here once.. I lost, but it wasn't till later on, so it serves it's point.

Here it is (http://www.warboards.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=337)

[Alexisonfire]

thank you yet again for ur help

[Cpt.Chronic]

For example, fazant doesn't think mass reaver is the counter to ultra/ling.
Mass reaver vs ultra/ling is theorycraft, or only works if you are already well in control of the game and can actually hold him off while you build reavers. The reason it doesn't work is because you don't have time to make them. You're only going to have 1 robo bay when you find out he's switched to ultra-ling, while you will have at least 10 gateways, most likely more. You can either build more robo-bays (which are quite expensive themselves) and slowly build reavers to counter his ever-growing force of ultra-ling, or you can use what building you already have to produce a zeal/archon/ht/dt army. Alternatively, you could plop down a couple of stargates and sair/dt him.

[Sambo83]

No it isn't. It used to be the standard counter in 1.08-1.09 Most toss already had a robotics bay and shuttle speed.. when you saw an ultra den or signs that ultra were coming, custom was to add a 2nd robo, sometimes a 3rd depending on how many bases you have, and get reaver damage upgrade. People have gotten away from it, and now just lose to ultra/ling as you almost never have enough dt/archon to deal with it. I assure you, it still works just as well as it did then.

If you expect to win a game when your opponent has ultralisks, I'm assuming that you're going to have a min only and a 3rd gas, otherwise it doesn't matter what you do. In that case 200/200 is hardly anything. Obviously you keep making zeal/arch while you wait, but the fact of the matter is, reaver is the only protoss ground unit that is cost effective against the ultralisk, and it's also the best counter to ling in the protoss arsenal.

Fazant doesn't think reaver is counter to ultra ling because he didn't play in 1.08

[Cpt.Chronic]

I've watched a lot of replays in my day and have never seen mass reavers to counter ultra/ling. I'm not saying people didn't use it back in 1.08 because I didn't start watching replays till 1.09. I have dozens of replays where ultra/ling gets beat by a mainly archon/zealot army with ht and dt support. If you go mass reaver I'd assume you'd need a shuttle per every 2 reavs and just have them follow your ground army till you engage his troops? Do you have any replays with the reavers?

[MidnightGladius]

Hmm, whenever I see ultra/ling in PvZ and I already have a bunch of gateways, I just attack with zeal/goon/archon from the front and flank with dts and storm from the back.

I'll have to try reavers and see if it works or not (it actually might, now that I think of it).

[thefazant]

reavs arent viable, its impossible to get a reav pump going when he has ultraling out, and he will just switch to hydras.

[Sambo83]

why does it matter if he "just switches" to hydras? hydras are about the worst unit you could have against goon/reaver.

He would have to switch to muta/ling, and in that case you would "just switch" to archons and then if he ever did make ultras you would have reaver/archon and be all gosu ^^

Usually it is easier to just make archons and dt to fight with ultra, but reaver is definately most effective. Obviously it requires good scouting. As fazant said you can't start making reavers when he has ultra/ling already out.

[thefazant]

you will never get out enough reavs to do anything against hydras, switching to reavs when the zerg goes ultraling is simply not viable.

[Valjean]

As fazant said you can't start making reavers when he has ultra/ling already out. switching to reavs when the zerg goes ultraling is simply not viable. Heh.

"I'm arguing with you because I agree!!"

[MidnightGladius]

How is that contradictory?

A difference in statement of views, but it isn't contradictory.

[Sambo83]

Obviously you have to have reavers when he has ultras. Not start making them when he already has 24 of them out. If you see the den morphing, that's plenty of time to add 1-2 robos more robos and have reaver damage before he attacks.

So if he then sees your reavers and for some illogical reason switches to about the worst possible unit he could make to counter them, besides lurk/ling, (your contention that he would switch to hydra escapes me, but we'll go with it) You'll have plenty of reavers. 20 goons and 3-4 reavers can kill an absurd amount of hydralisks. The counter to reaver is muta/ling, and if he switches to that, you can add sair. This assumes that you have 3 gas because if you don't you can't mount much defense against ultra/ling no matter what units you choose.

I think one reason it worked in 1.08 and 1.09 was that robo was used a lot more in pvz.. people often opened with drops and continued to drop around all game, so they saw tech a lot more easily.

[thefazant]

the counter to reav goon is mutaling, but since he will have plenty of archons and temps with storm out by the time youre reavs get out, youre mutas would get slaughtered, if someone would switch to mutaling late game, id just laugh, you seem to assume that you can get 6 reavs out before his ultras hit you, this is completely impossible, and hydras>>>>>>reavs in small amounts, simply because he will have a lot more hydras then you have reavs because he will be outproducing you.
show me replays of you switching to mass reavs when a good zerg goes ultraling and winning.

[ZeroCross]

I think it's funny between fazant and sambo, they are basicly saying the same thing over and over. rofl.

Seriously though, Fazant's right. I once did reavers versus ungodly amount of hydras. I had just got done fighting with a terran, the third player of the three of us left in the game. Just then, about 6 dozen hydra crested the curve and walked straight through my 12 cannons, 6 archons, 12 zealots, 6 dragoons, 3 carriers, and 6 reavers. He had over 40 left by the time he got through all my stuff.

[ReD_ICE]

wow...big range...ur a 74 apm player playing a 217 apm dude...lol, anyway, good replay

Just then, about 6 dozen hydra crested the curve and walked straight through my 12 cannons, 6 archons, 12 zealots, 6 dragoons, 3 carriers, and 6 reavers. He had over 40 left by the time he got through all my stuff.

what the hell....u've built nearly all the units available....no shit u lost. U gotta see the dis/advantages for the units against hydras, and then use ur head....damn....carriers + reavers + archons.....noah, the ark is really not that big in starcraft....

[Sambo83]

Seriously though, Fazant's right. I once did reavers versus ungodly amount of hydras. I had just got done fighting with a terran, the third player of the three of us left in the game. Just then, about 6 dozen hydra crested the curve and walked straight through my 12 cannons, 6 archons, 12 zealots, 6 dragoons, 3 carriers, and 6 reavers. He had over 40 left by the time he got through all my stuff.
That's bullshit. You must royally suck if if 7200 resources in hydralisks beat over 10000 resources worth of protoss troops. Also, why the fuck did you have 6 archons and 0 templar vs mass hydra? Also fazant isn't "right" because you don't understand what Fazant was talking about. Fazant knows that hydralisks royally suck against reavers. He is saying that they do better than ultralisks, which is right, but he is saying that protoss won't have enough reavers to deal with the hydralisks, which is where I disagree with him.

[Valjean]

Sambo, what numbers are you thinking of, for like the number of reavers and the number of hydras?

[Sambo83]

Once you have 4-5 of them with damage upgrade along with sufficient supporting goons, you can kill about 2 and a half times their value in hydra.

[Alexisonfire]

Heres another replay of me i won but i didn't play very good can u give me some more tips

[Alexisonfire]

Kicked the British guys ass

[ZeroCross]

That's bullshit. You must royally suck if if 7200 resources in hydralisks beat over 10000 resources worth of protoss troops. Also, why the fuck did you have 6 archons and 0 templar vs mass hydra? Also fazant isn't "right" because you don't understand what Fazant was talking about. Fazant knows that hydralisks royally suck against reavers. He is saying that they do better than ultralisks, which is right, but he is saying that protoss won't have enough reavers to deal with the hydralisks, which is where I disagree with him.
First off, it was a custom designed map. Second, Did I mention i had just gotten done fighting with a terran? The zerg player was able to fend off a few attacks with minimal loses. Third, this was over two years ago. Forth, the zerg player was someone who knew me and my tactics well, but still, the reavers were clobbered in a matter of seconds. Of course, three were in the red, So i guess that threw it off a bit.

In any case, Reavers alone I don't think would be able to beat off godly amounts of hydralisks. Perhaps if they were all lined up side by side pointed in the direction of the hydralisks coming through a choke point. Reavers just don't seem like a very good solo unit. Meh, I'll have to try it out sometime. I still wanna play some matches against you guys. It would be a nice change of scenery from D2. Next time you're on PM me with your account ant we can play a few games.

[Sambo83]

My account is eSu.DReaMe on USEast, come play whenever, I am on a lot.

[ReD_ICE]

ZeroCross, u dont get it do u....the point is, u need to use the right units against hydras, building a whole lot of different expensive units is really really stupid.....and also, even if u r playing ums, u should still put in some thoughts about ur strategy, u dont go off and build one of every kind of unit.

PS. If that zerg is someone who knew your tactics well, u've got a HUGE problem. People are supposed to know your tactics well, becuz u should be using certain tactics according to the situation, and not stick to 1 tactic and let ur friend figure u out. honestly, i dont think u are to the level of any of us in this forum...so anything anyone else says in this forum may be helpful to u.

pps. i meant people are NOT supposed to know ur tactics well....(hehe...just caught that^^")

[thefazant]

reavers rape hydras, the problem is getting enough reavers to beat hydras AND getting enough archs/temps/DA/cors/whatever to make sure the zerg doesnt switch tech.
this is almost never possible in a real game, and if it is possible, you will have stronger options.