Zerg: too easy to beat?

[soljax]

In terms of difficulty, playing against a zerg is as simple as it comes. In starcraft broodwar, we've been introduced to several new splash units, which all beat the hell out of zerg. A couple in particular have made playing zerg a nightmare. Medics top the list. Corsairs are up there as well.

Now, I've seen zerg kick ass. I've downloaded replays from tournaments, observed proported "zerg experts" and I've played zerg thoroughly for a long time (and occasionally kicked a lot of ass). The thing is, every zerg win has a common denominator. The common denominator is that the zerg player is better than the terran or protoss. It takes one thing to beat a zerg player: Pressure, and at a certain point most SC players figure that out.

The whole problem is that zerg can't stand toe to toe against any army in the game. Terran m&m&tank.. a lackluster lame-ass easy to pull off newbie trick destroys masses of units... FAST. Protoss (anything) and templars is just about as retarded as it gets (in terms of mass destruction). Show me a zerg unit which can do mass destruction, and I'll show you a fragile, slow, cumbersome, and short ranged piece of shit which does 20 damage in a line.

Effectively, the only way to beat someone is to use the "speed" of your units to outmaneuver them. Well folks, it's a tough-assed way to play, and it basically requires you to out-play your opponent. (here's why you have to be better than your opponent in the first place to win).

IF your opponent attacks you, your strategy is to loop in behind him and attack him. Sound good? No. It sucks. Basically this lets your opponent determine when YOU attack. This also requires you to beat your opponents attack back. That isn't easy.

YOu also have to fast expand around your opponent. That leaves your zipper down for a great deal of time. 90% of bnet maphacks, and guess what. The delicate race which needs to fast expand is going to suffer as a result. That exp is going to be hit immediately.. FUn?

[Ragnarox]

Well, in a way I agree and disagree being a Zerg player myself.

In the good maps (Not money maps) both toss and terrans have one problem. That problem is that most of their units are WAY more expensive than zerg units. Zerg can win an economic war.

Most terran and toss players that I've seen ran out of resources for their more expensive units and I had the power to beat down their cheap units. I used my cheap, effective units (hydras) to beat the tar out of their defenses that I had widdled down over a LONG period of time.

The whole point of Zerg is cost efficency, their units are cheap to account for the losses. The zerg are the best damage control race in my opinion. As for corsairs...yes they will murder overlords and such, but cheap hydras make excellent anti-air defense.

[Ahzz]

The whole problem is that zerg can't stand toe to toe against any army in the game. Terran m&m&tank.. a lackluster lame-ass easy to pull off newbie trick destroys masses of units... FAST. Protoss (anything) and templars is just about as retarded as it gets (in terms of mass destruction).You just don't know how to play...

The thing is, every zerg win has a common denominator. The common denominator is that the zerg player is better than the terran or protoss. And same for the other races, if terran player has played more, has more skill, then quite surely he/she will win? All the races are equal, everything has their own counter in such game as starcraft. Its just having about same sized army, and coming from as many directions as possible. Since the Zergs get much faster units, especially because they expand the most in whole game, it will slow their enemy enough not to attack.
...And zerg getting more and more expansions over the map, meaning many times more units

[aak]

Zerg is not the weakest race, if anything toss is. You don't know how to playt the game if you think zerg is the weakest.

Their one problem is that they, as of right now, almost NEED to fast expo vs. terran.

[Ahzz]

Their one problem is that they, as of right now, almost NEED to fast expo vs. terran. Not quite true. It's very useful, but not must to win the game. Though, Zerg needs quite fast expand vs terrans. Atleast, make expand before terrans, and when terran makes his exp, you go for more expands, or earlier if terran is lazy and wont expand when most of the terrans do. Not doubting your words, though, I saw that "ALMOST need" part.:tup:

[aak]

Not quite true. It's very useful, but not must to win the game. Though, Zerg needs quite fast expand vs terrans. Atleast, make expand before terrans, and when terran makes his exp, you go for more expands, or earlier if terran is lazy and wont expand when most of the terrans do. Not doubting your words, though, I saw that "ALMOST need" part.:tup:
Well, by fast expo I mean expo before making a spawning pool.

[Schwitzer]

The risk of fast expanding is if a Terran does a Marine rush on you, comprende?

[soljax]

Zerg need to pour on the economy early. You need a 2nd hatchery period. If you can get it on some new minerals, then that's great. If you can't, you'll need to do that soon.

The only hugely successful strategy against terran that i've used is dark swarm, hydras, lurkers, and scourges. There simply isn't anything terran can do about it.

The only problem with this strategy, is it requires a huge economy to pull off.

Anyway, I stand by my ascertaition that even newbies can rock Great zerg players with terran... terran owning zerg = easy.

[Ahzz]

"marine rush" lol... only thing that might make hatchery on danger is bunker rush, and it is defeated in 80% of games.
right after it finishes, start a sunken colony, and by the same time it pops out, ur spawning pool will too, keep making zergling for some time... maybe 8, and once enemy gets 5 marines on your hatchery, you have sunk colony done, AND atleast 6 lings

oh... if you meant marine rush not so early, but a small time after hatch finishes, it can be beaten by scouting often with lings and making alot of sunk colonies, depends on aamount they about to rush. 8 marine with medics, 3 colonies, 10-15 4 colonies, and quite much like that..

Anyway, I stand by my ascertaition that even newbies can rock Great zerg players with terran... terran owning zerg = easy. Ok, I'm now 100% on it that your total noob with no real good skill. A newbie might win with luck an average zerg player, but NEVER by skill.

[Hawthorne]

Well I've never been good at playing BW.
(My Personal record at this time is 1 win every 7 games)
Generally I get beaten because the other players use sneaky tactics (blow up workers etc. etc.)
I'm a zerg player too.I'm very good at making tactics but can't use 'em.
Well the Zerg are the best race if you ask me.Because if you constantly attack a terran in his tank possitions he won't even notice the 6 overlords with hydras that just came in.Also you can create many mutalisks which is a big plus.I think that the best thing which makes a zerg player is knowing how to use the things he has.The best tacktic when playing against a terran or ptrotoss is sneak atack.Bury a few hidras and lots of zerglings.But everytime you sneak atack like this you'll have to change their place and this is dangerous if you are playing 2v2.
Well I've seen some pretty awesome zerg players.One of the best I have ha the privalage to meet was one of the bulgarian boys who went to the world championships on broodwar,counter-strike etc. etc. He aranged that 4 player including me player against him.At the begining he had problems in holding us back but then he just pulvurised us with horrific attacks.(Don't play zerg vs zerg it's hard)

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

zerg like any race have their disadvantages... but the thing is if you let them get a hold of the map your screwed

[Spartan-II]

Amen brother. I once let a Zerg gain half of LT and ..... Zerglings by the hundreds *shivers*

[aak]

Amen brother. I once let a Zerg gain half of LT and ..... Zerglings by the hundreds *shivers*
Zerg needs more expos than any other race. That is why they need to expo early. So if you had the other half you should have won.

[GoatseS_BoxeR]

Zerg Ownzzz all 3 races!

[Ahzz]

Zerg Ownzzz all 3 races!Why everyone then not play zerg?They are alll balanced, and if Zergs would be best, why does 90% of ppl playing starcraft choose zerg? You probably said this because you play zerg, and like it most, but it does not make it the best.

[Sikawtic]

Zerg are awesome, but I do admit, they are the easiest to beat on 1v1comp, however, in the hands of a good player, they pwn all! mwaahahflhkja! ZJflkjal;oj!

merry







christmas





or



honica.... or w/e

[ReD_ICE]

There is really no telling of which is the weakest...it depends on how well the player plays...if ur a good, experienced player, no matter which race u use, u will know the structure of the game. If your a zerg player, dont be discouraged by some of the comments of this thread...cuz some ppl just dont have enough brains. ^^

[GoatseS_BoxeR]

zerg is not easy to beat zerg is easy to win with if ur volcano zerg ;)

[MidnightGladius]

Are you trying to go for a personal record or something? 8 months... Jeesh.

[Aquarian]

What the...Really big revival.

[BrotherGreen]

Well, being a terran player, i'll always lose to a zerg if they have too much time. So you either pressure the hell out of them, and harrass, or you just take them early.

I find firebats extremely satisfying against zerg *drool*

But zergs arent the best, or the worst. All the races are equal and thats why people play different races a lot, also, if they werent all balanced SC/BW wouldnt still be as popular as it is.

[Lysergiac]

I always wondered how zerg were fair because they can mass produce units 3 times faster than any other race, since there are three opportunities for creation at the hatchery available at any given time. Then I realized that in order to even consider doing that, your economy needs to be much stronger than your opponents- not an easy feat, especially if they find your expansions and kick your ass there.

[afz]

I've seen 2 year revivals :)

[BrotherGreen]

Whatever that means

Being zerg you need to expand and harrass. If your expanding WHILE your harrassing your opponent, your not going to get hurt.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

Everything we say is bias.

[MidnightGladius]

The expansion/harassment rule holds pretty firm, though (me being a Zerg player). If they can attack expansions while you're harassing, you're obviously doing something wrong.

[Geckat]

I like playing Zerg. Also, though, I'm also a defense freak in RTSs. So basically, that makes me being Zerg, expanding a lot and early (I guess), and stacking static and moveable defense everywhere. Then I get all my CTRL slots filled up and go strike their main base with everything I've got (I usually just play 1v1). So I guess I'm not really a true Zerg player - just a Protoss player that likes Ultralisks.

But anyways, I find that when I'm playing AGAINST Zerg, they're best to get to in the middle of the game, when they're just building up Mutalisks to eventually turn into the dreaded Guardian/Devourer. Mutalisks really aren't all that great, so if you bring in a lot of air units/good ground with air attack at that time, then they're easy. Otherwise, a good player'll either rush you or mass like crazy to throw at you all at once (like me, though I really don't think I'm all that good).

Basically, Zerg aren't too easy to beat. I find them quite hard if you don't have scouts positioned everywhere. Protoss are quite easy later (not very late though, otherwise they have Carriers, and those can be a pain in the ass if you don't have the right counters), or if you're really fast you can take them in the beginning (short time-spans for each, though). Terran are harder in the beginning, moderate in the middle and near the end, but the best time to get them is after you hold them off after their giant assault. Terrans don't build too fast, so if you can hold them off of that one attack that was meant to completely decimate you and then counter quickly, then they're easy.

There's different points for races when they're worst to attack, and when they're best. It always depends on the player, of course.

So yeah, I'll just leave that as my two bits, since I can't think of much more to say. I expect tons of 'Geckat, you are a retard', but what they hay ;) .

[BrotherGreen]

Geckat, you are a retard.


But for the most part, I agree with you =) I just wanted to say that.

[Geckat]

I KNEW the next person to reply would say that, just because I said they would. Especially you, BG ;) .

[BrotherGreen]

<3 you know I lurv you though. But for the record, you are mostly correct..

[ares232]

The key to winning with any race is good defense, plenty of workers, and an expansion before you can build advanced buildings. The Zerg are the cheapest cost race in the game, and they have an advantage over the Terrans and Protoss because of massing 3 units at a time. Keep in mind that in 1v1 games if you are Zerg you will always have an advantage over your enemy if they are Terran or Protoss.

Zerg have the ability to scout early, and detect early on,in most games. Zerg workers also mine faster than probes or Scvs therefore, they can build more quickly than any other race in the game. Locating the enemy base(s) early is always a good idea in 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 games. Upgrade to lair after your second hatchery has been completed,harvest gas,and create colonies to fend off rushes (non-money map). Then create lots of zerglings + hydralisks, and morph a few lisks into lurkers. Build an expansion if you haven't already done so, near the enemy base, make sure the enemy player does not notice your expansion. Build a queens nest, and then research hive.

Once hive has been completed create a few drones and build some nydus cannals to your expansion... Mass up several units or your choice and then rush the enemy player with the force include overlords and queens to spot dark templar.

BTW my favorite race is Terran, but I do occasionly like to play one of the other races.

[Ahzz]

The key to winning with any race is good defense
The Zergs defence is offence

Zerg workers also mine faster than probes or Scvs therefore, they can build more quickly than any other race in the game.
Not true AT ALL! And they cannot build very quick. Mining is one thing, building is other. They lose a drone when building, but the protoss can just mass buildings.

Upgrade to lair after your second hatchery has been completed,harvest gas,and create colonies to fend off rushes (non-money map). Then create lots of zerglings + hydralisks, and morph a few lisks into lurkers. Build an expansion if you haven't already done so, near the enemy base, make sure the enemy player does not notice your expansion. Build a queens nest, and then research hive.

Sometimes you upgrade to lair pretty late. Or you make third hatchery before that. Besides, mostly you should make an army to fend off rushes, atleast on zvz. ZvP you can fend off by massing lings and hydras fast starting with a fast expand. Vs terran you do need sunken colonies though. Their marines and medics with stim packs kill them just too fast, and without adreanaline upgrade for them, the medics will mostly heal faster. Ofcourse depending on the amount of lings.

Once hive has been completed create a few drones and build some nydus cannals to your expansion... Mass up several units or your choice and then rush the enemy player with the force include overlords and queens to spot dark templar.

usually you won't need nydus canals. That's why most people don't make them, unless it's a island map or smthing.
And ofcourse he will just let you mass and kill him etc?
You didn't mention harassing or attacking untill the later game, so it would just allow your enemy to outexpand you and mass you out before you even reach hive upgrades or units.

[BrotherGreen]

I gotta agree with Ahzz with like.. Everything.

[Aquarian]

Yeah,me too.

And,all of the races are balanced.That's why SC is great.

[Alexisonfire]

u can't say its completly balanced but its as close as it could be

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah, you guys know your stuff...

[Geckat]

I'd agree with Ahzz about everything except the offence being defense. People say that, especially in hand-to-hand combat and stuff, but not in RTSs. Unless you're playing 1v1, and each person only has one base, it's really easy to attack even while your opponent is fragging you. Once you get that set up, it's more like a race (with obvious advantages and disadvantages to each) - often where static defense comes in. And Zerg have some of the best static defense. You shouldn't underestimate that.

[MidnightGladius]

The only time Zerg should be using static D is when:

- You're 12-hatching at your choke or natural and need to protect it from early T/P rushes
- You've somehow managed to get a hatchery at your P opponent's choke and are offensive sunken/sporing him along with lurkers, hydras, scourge, and overlords (gg P)
- You're using spores to protect against sair/wraith harassment
- You're using lurkers/sunkens to protect expos from dreaded T drops
- You're 5-pool "crab attacking" ZvZ
- You're 11-pooling against a 9-pooler, and you need sunkens to compensate for lack of lings
- You've gotten your spire up late in ZvZ and need to protect against muta/scourge
- You're in a small number of circumstances where it is necessary to use static D until you can consolidate your military/resource advantage

And I'm pretty sure tha sums it up.

[Ahzz]

I'd agree with Ahzz about everything except the offence being defense. People say that, especially in hand-to-hand combat and stuff, but not in RTSs. Unless you're playing 1v1, and each person only has one base, it's really easy to attack even while your opponent is fragging you.
Well maybe, but I kinda meant that offense is MAINLY its defence with zerg. I do mostly guard my exp with my army around the map, and it also allows easy flanking

[BrotherGreen]

Static Defense is often considered to be your whole defense, its not. Your static defense is like.. A wall or such that holds long enough for you to rally troops in your base to back it up. For terran, that can mean 2 bunks, and 2 tanks, and hopefully some kind of detection for dts and such. That generally holds a choke long enough for you to rally SOME kind of backup.

[Geckat]

Yeah. And it also lets you know that you're being attacked so you can actually GET there before they get to your Hatcheries...and know about it (this is really good when they're attacking at the same time as you are, as I said earlier).

[ReD_ICE]

Sometimes...the zerg player gotta watch out for early MMF. If u dont have enough sunkens or zerglings, the terran might just go through or around the sunkens and go right to ur base. With 2 - 3 bats, zerglings immediately becomes nothing. You know what I'm talking about Midnight...;)

[MidnightGladius]

Ugh. The memories are there, all right, but I've certainly improved now... or so I hope.

[Geckat]

I hope so too. I hate fighting Terran, just for that reason. If they don't rush, though, I like to think that the storm's over then.

[MidnightGladius]

Nah, that's not true. Masses of 3/3 M&M with Tanks and Vessels will ruin anybody's day...

[Ahzz]

by that time the zerg should have defiler ultra + ling which will ruin his days too

[Geckat]

And Guardians. Heh, I love my Guardians. I feel like such a newb :( .

[Infested_Zeratul]

Zerg, yeah, its a pretty weak breed. Which is why i like it. It depends if its a computer or player you are facing. like in multiplayer, Zergs are the best. But if your facing computer Zerg, it is like breaking pencils. When i face a Zerg, i always feel powerful since they can't do anything to beat me. But Zerg is a fast defensive breed. You have to kill them in one attack, if you don't 2 seconds later, they're back to where they were before. But the sunkens and spore defences are annoying and strong. I also find opponents unburrowing themsleves and becomes 100 times stronger in 1 second. But if I was The zergs, i would plant lurkers all over the place.

[ReD_ICE]

That just sounded like a load of newbie bs to me. Since when did zerg become the best in multiplayer?

[Geckat]

Mostly it's Terran players that are good. There's a lot of good Zerg players though, too, I guess. But I think there's more than one way to be good as the Zerg. Mine's turtling (Just having like two bases, but going crazy with both of them). I'm trying to get good with Protoss, but so far all I can do is mass Carriers. I feel so weak; I'm a week newb :( . lol

[MidnightGladius]

Infested_Zeratul, don't become another incarnation of Infested_Archon... we don't need someone else acting as the official SC Tactical Waterspout of Idiocy (TM)...

Guardians are good for backing up finishers. Otherwise, you're not being cost-effective since wraiths will just slaughter them. You can't even break a formation with Guardians, since the T will just irradiate a vessel and move it near the guardians while you run your M&M and tanks. However, add in some ultra/ling/def, and you've got a winner there.

I agree that Protoss is at a low point in the professional stadiums... since when has a toss won anything important?

[Ahzz]

I agree that Protoss is at a low point in the professional stadiums... since when has a toss won anything important?
When they killed the overmind.

Anyways. Guardians are always OK, (almost), but they get REALLY good if you do them FAST. Like, just a normal fast exp muta tech, but start queen nest before spire is done, so you get hive right away. Keep harassing without wasting your mutas, while you tech and mass lings with the spare minerals. Start greater spire and adreanal glands right away, and start to save minerals for guards, so you get them fast. If he scanned your greater spire tech, this is not gonna be so easy, but if he didn't He's most likely screwed. Bring your mutas near his main, or to the front gate or smthing, depends, and morph 'em to guards. I suggest that you make scourges for some kind of a back up, which make wraiths pretty much useless, and vessels somewhat useless. The thing in this is, that the guards were so fast that he couldn't have fast enough any kind of a proper defense, even if he saw greater spire tech. UNLESS:
1) if he made fast exp, otherwise he will not have money for a army and tech
2) as fast tech as possible.
Anyways, this now forces him to attack, or protect himself. If he attacks and fails (i mean, tank, mm army. MM are pretty much useless vs guards + lings. If he does choose to attack, he's pretty much dead because I expect any zerg having a good amount of sunks ready if théy tech mutas, because mass mm really spoils a day for mutas.
Anyway, If he did go protect his base with m&m, just run in with adreanal lings and destroy his exp. If he attacked and fails (which is most probable) he lost, since his base is all done. besides, I would have lurk tech ready when he comes, and exps too, maybe 2. If he went for the exps he lost since you get so much time to prepare.

IF he saw your guard tech (greater spire coming) you may cancel it and start lurk + defiler tech and he still thinks you got guards comin and doesn't make so much tanks.

This doesn't always work, but it does the best when doing it fast.

[Irish_Hitchhiker]

the zerg have never given me an advantge ever i have found that the toss are turly the more powerfull and better race they rule the zerg any day :D :D

[Ahzz]

lol you keep making those posts all the time ;D And got nothing similar with the threads :D

[Holocaust]

Zerg aren't always too easy to beat, they're cheap, effective, and can be quite powerful when used in force.

[good_or_bad]

Yesterday, I decided to try Valkyries for my first time. I've never really managed to get into the races' new technologies, instead I tried to focus on the things I've already used before moving on. (Hey, I'm like Thrawn from Star Wars!!! :D)

Anyways, I was attacked by a mass of Mutalisks. They lasted a few seconds, and one of my 6 Valkyries died. Nothing more.

I love Valkyries. Next, Corsair practice. :D

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Zerg too easy to beat...my PvZ is always the pain of my life...

[MidnightGladius]

Hehe, it's so fun obliterating people with hydra/ling off of 2 bases when they don't know how to storm :D

I mean, seriously, zeal/goon doesn't stand a chance against speedlings/speedhydra for cost if you can micro hydras at all.

[close.ads]

PvZ is really one of the hardest match up in all aspects. Until protoss gets high templars they won't stand a chance in head on battles against zergs, and when you get high templars the zerg will already have 4~6 mutas running like an idiot around your base, picking off lone units and assasinating high templars. And when you finally got archons there comes the mass hydras taking them head on. When you finally enough high templars and archons the zerg is already on ultraling, ripping your base apart. Every now and then 12 hydras would pop up in the middle of your base(or 8 lings), taking out a building or two, with guardians bombing you out of your dragoon's range. If you decided to go corsair/DT against zerg, horray and their overlords sees you(god damn annoying ovies in the beginning you can only have zealots, whoose muscles are too weak to jump high enough to slash the ovie down) Zerg is just the most goddamn annoying race against protoss! gah!!

[Infested_Zeratul]

I know i'm a newbie, it always seems other people can use zergs usefully and everytime i use them, its not very effective. But I rather choos zergs cause they're fast, quick and cheap to build and you can creat three at a time. Protoss is awesome, but they cost wayyy too much. Terrans, its not very exciting when i am a human myself =P Marines, fire bats and ghosts die too fast. And they're slow builders. I don't really go for the good units like guardians cause by the time i get there, i'm already six feet under. my comp lags alot.

Lol, when you get to a few zealots from your gateway, you'd see a few swarms of hydralisks and zerglings already wrecking your nexus.

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah, there's a lot of argument on the alledged imbalance of ZvP. Maybe that's why it's my favorite matchup :D

And Infested_Zeratul, if they have "a few swarms" of units when you get your first few zeals, either you've been like quadruple expanding or teching madly to everything simultaneously... Either that, or the map is super imbalanced.

[NerissaValkureon]

Ahh, the balance questions.

Anyways, Zerg really have one good advantage. Swarm. That can be a massive psychological advantage against less experienced players, and people who can't keep their cool. I mean, who likes seeing a swarm of 50-odd zerglings and hydralisks show up on their doorstep, with mutalisk for air support?

Zerg forces are designed to suck if you're using too few, to truly defeat an opponent, you have to crank out a horde if you didn't manage to rush their base early.

[MidnightGladius]

For a moment there, I thought you were talking about DSwarm, which is certainly an advantage in vT and vP (reduces archon dmg by a LOT).

However, I do agree that massing is definitely fun. Especially when you have their army out in the open and flank them from as many sides as possible. Nothing like 50-60 hydra/ling closing in from all directions to get a P player to lose his/her cool :D

[ColdBlue]

Ah yes...and while the Toss player nervously storms your (rebuildable) force, you're sneaking in two lurkers into his base, destroying that which REALLY matters: his economy. ^_^ It's all about priorities, people!

[MidnightGladius]

It's really just a matter of shutting down P's gas control, and then just forcing him/her to use up storms with a continuous stream of small attacks. Once that's done with, just run them over with ultra/ling.

[Ahzz]

and while the Toss player nervously storms your (rebuildable) force
Hmm... I dodge the storms with hydras. I feel like I did it like shit if i lose more than 2 hydras to a storm :/

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah, that's the other thing about flanking. If you send everything from one direction, chances are, you'll lose the full number (8).

I also like to have around 9-12 mutas just flying around everywhere and picking off stray units.

[Ahzz]

hmm? Why would I? After you've played around 2000 games, You KNOW when will he storm, by experience.

[MidnightGladius]

Well, that would be ~1400 games to go :D

[Ahzz]

:) right. I almost never "see" the storm and then move, except if they make more than 1 or two, I just know "Right, I have about 12 hydras at one small spot, he's prolly gonna storm there soon, then I move the hydras, and I hardly even lose hp.

[close.ads]

hmm? Why would I? After you've played around 2000 games, You KNOW when will he storm, by experience.

I've played more than 2k games...but I still don't know when he's gonna storm...
Gah...more practice...

[Ahzz]

Well, Me too, but I think I somewhat got the idea around 2000 games. I just get a feeling that he's gonna storm somewhere there. So, you're main race is Z?

[close.ads]

No, I rarely play Z =P

[Ahzz]

yeah. It's about that amount WITH zerg, or you just have to have really good micro

[close.ads]

Take the middle value...you get terran!
nvm I'm just being lame...
btw zerg is my secondary race...can you give me some tips on predicting storms? 'cause everytime a protoss storm me I either could retreat my units AFTER the storm hits, or kill the HT with mutas...it'll be cool if the storms can't scratch me...

[Ahzz]

Yeah I do alot it too after the storm hits. Moving around the hydras to the right way comes from experience, and situation. You need hydra speed, really. I... COULD look for a replay where I dodge storms, and you could look it with bwtv... ;o

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Thanks! <3

[TheStergin]

I'll just let you know dude that my entire army was onced wiped out against a huge force of hydralisks. Thats there strength, MASS PRODUCTION!

[Ahzz]

... You just sucked in the game.

[TheStergin]

Yup.
I was having a horible day that day.

[Prozerran]

I think the significance of where Zerg's problem is lies in not being able to make up for the loss in resources they endure.

For instance, Zerg are excellent in expanding, but they have a shitty set up for securing the expo. By the time a Terran or a Protoss player is built up while Zerg Expo's, the Z player doesn't have a strong fortification (they have the shittiest defense structures, and poor range until Guardians come out, if at all, IMO).

The zerg need a way to make up for the loss in resources they incur when they lose their buildings and structures. Protoss have shields that regenerate, Terran Buildings lift off and move, Zerg have no more than a shitty regeneration... it's just not enough.

Unsummoning some of their more expensive buildings would at least balance that problem out without creating a horrible imbalance elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the Zerg.

[ColdBlue]

Um... if I may... I think that too many Zerg players rely on pure brute force, then whine and cry about splash damage units and how the game is unbalanced.

Zerg has some nice spells/skills in it's arsenal. Burrow is something that I'd regularly upgrade if I were a Zerg player. You see... just like Prozerran said, Zerg doesn't have ranged units. They have to get up-close and personal. As a Zerg, I would regularly hunt for observers with scourge to insure that burrowed units aren't easily discovered. As far as Terran goes.. their detection isn't very badass. Scan is, but scan has better uses than searching for burrowed units. Sure, SCV's tend to build those annoying turrets, but I'd gladly sacrifice 4 lings to prevent an SCV from advancing. The extra 50 minerals will cost the Terran in terms of micro management time. It's also a way to pressure Terrans. ZvZ..different story. I dunno about ZvZ.

By the way, I see a lot of Zerg players who don't have many workers? WTF. Spend an early 300 minerals to get extra hatch for worker-building purposes. Most common zerg players today need a different playing style, IMO. I'm not even going to go into details considering defilers or queens. =| Shame on brutal Zerg players.

[Geckat]

Really? I usually have nine on minerals (on the rare occassion that I actually play). I have seen Zerg that the first thing they make is an Extractor, though.

[IceFlare]

You really shouldnt be relying on your static defense as T. For T, basics are just a turret for detection and probably a bunker as well. Unless you're starting a wall which would be rax depot and possibly a turret

[jwasafrog]

this is probably common knowledge, but I IMO the zerg's streangth is in there addaptability and speed.

Everything is SC has a counter, and I think the zerg are the fastest to be able to adapt to a strategy and counter it.

Plus zerg have some insanely powerful spell casters, and with their burrow mobility a zerg player really doesn't have to rely on brute streangth.

They just have to adapt and and use the opponents strategy to their advantege. IMO the zerg can react to a strategy and counter it the fastest, but they also take the most punishment if they don't react and counter a strategy.

I guess my point is, I think a decent zerg player could easily get splattered by a decent toss or terran player if they make one or two mistakes. I guess zerg have less margin for error, but they are by no means underpowered.

My only gripe is that they have no range! Prozerran said it. If the zerg don't get guards they get outranged by reavers and tanks and get splattered.

[MidnightGladius]

With Zerg, you either have 1 worker/mineral or 2 workers/mineral. Anything else screws up the worker mechanics. I prefer a lot of expos with 1 worker/mineral myself.

Geckat, if you mean by building an Extractor on 7 and then getting 104 gas, it's because they're going to 9pool speedling rush you (more likely than not, at least; could be burrow rush for all I know). Be prepared.

And yeah, burrow owns. Nothing like wiping the grin off a reaver-dropper's face by popping up 6 hydras from under his shuttle :D

You need DS versus Terran in late game. No way at all you're win without it, unless they're a total idiot. Plague is real nice on vessel/goon clumps, too. As for queen spells, it's underused, but only because most people can't manage them well. Sure, ensnare ZvZ is deadly if you go hydra/ling, and Broodling can take apart tanks and HTs relatively easily, and parasite is good for those vessels/shuttles. It's just that most people can't take time off from macroing to do that kind of thing (I know I sure can't, not without suffering on macro).

[jwasafrog]

I guess poeple are so worried about macroing zerg that they forget they need to micro queens and filers to win. They just start massing units and get stormed or tanked to death.

Why is it that people always used to complain about the zerg being overpowered and now we're talking about how they suck so much?

[IceFlare]

For queens, the 100 gas for each queen + upgrades just isnt worth it in ZvZ, better spent on more mutas

[ColdBlue]

Yes..but ZvZ splash = owned.
I honeslty think that Zerg should have use in queens and defilers. I know defilers are hard to reach, but maybe it's worth it. I played a guy who reached the crax level pretty fast, and put up a decent fight. Perhaps if he had gotten defiler + plague instead. Plague OWNZ O_<!!!!

[MidnightGladius]

3/3 ultra/ling/swarm/scourge is probably one of the hardest things a TvZer has to deal with late-game. That being said, you need like 4 gas wells to pump that effectively, which means that if you can't use Lurkers or Mutalisks well, you're never going to get there and be in reasonable condition.

But anyways, it sucks to be Z and watch dozens of population vanish from a few well-placed storms :D

[thefazant]

Why is it that people always used to complain about the zerg being overpowered and now we're talking about how they suck so much?
because you are all clueless

[MidnightGladius]

That's nice and reassuring of you to say, fazant. :/

[jwasafrog]

because you are all clueless

ah, it's all become clear to me now. :concern: