Zerg defence against Protos crossair and carier

[lottrup]

I often play with a friend. We dont rush. I always play zerg, he protos.

I soon get a problem with defending me from his crossair and carrieres. He usually has 5 of each, and I cant beat them.

It seems like I need to have a combination of a lot of different units to defend my self.

Any surgestions?

[skeet]

5 of each. That shouldn't be that hard.
Go mass hydras, with dark swar,. And to protect your overlords from the corsairs place them all on top of a single spore colony.
Scourges might work, but I myself have not tested them that much against carriers and corsairs, but if the numbers are that small then hydras should easily do the job. Just don't forget to focus fire on the carriers.

[lottrup]

Well.... 5 is just the start.... soon there is loads of them.

[Schwitzer]

By the time he manages to tech to Carriers you should have upgraded Hydralisks being massed produced. If you don't, you need to re-evaluate the way you play. Post a replay so I can see exactly what's going on, please.

Scourge are excellent against Carriers, but the Corsairs will protect against that. I'd definately go with Hydras. Don't waste time and resources teching to Dark Swarm unless the game goes on so long; upgraded Hydras will be fine.

[lottrup]

Thanks. I will try that to night, and possibly post a replay.

[lottrup]

Well that dident work.... I tried with MANY hydra, but not enough.

Take a look at my replay. I would be gald for any hints on my way of playing.

[skeet]

you should have taken your expansion earlier, attacker him earier, he didnt' have anything besides probes in the first 5 minutes. If you had rushed him with lings or hydras he would have died. Also the majority of your battles took place next to his photons, if this happens you should run. Also you need to tell your hydras to attack the carriers directly.

[Garrec]

If you were going to build so many hatcheries early on, especially your first one, why didn't you build them next to expansions to get an early jumpstart in resources?

It also looked like you made WAY too many drones for your main base. Some of the drones just seemed to be sitting there, because only 1 can mine from a mineral field at once.

Given your options for attacking such a large force, there's probably not much you could have done, especially on a map such as LT. There's not much clear space to mobilize your forces, and your opponent could have easily moved over some high ground or away from any dark swarms. With his corsairs, any air units would have been a waste of resources, scourges included.

[Schwitzer]

I'll update this post as I watch.
Okey, I'm done. Pay careful attention to the paragraph in bold:

Okey, someone said you had too many workers in your main. You have to have a lot of workers to maximise your income, and when you expand you'll want to pull about half off your main so you can instantly start benefiting from your expansion. However, I feel in this case you made yourself vulnerable at the start by focussing too much on worker production.

Which brings up an important point: you haven't expanded yet. This in itself is not a problem, but if you had been keeping up your scouting (with Lings or whatever) you would have discovered your opponent isn't in a position to harass you any time soon, and could've easily expanded. Or wiped him out. As mentioned, you've got an awful lot of Hatcheries in your main... whilst having several Hatcheries in your main is not uncommon, you should've expanded.

So yeah... active scouting too... you would've seen his fast expand if you'd been scouting, which is very risky for a Protoss to do in a PvZ on LT.

The Protoss has cannoned himself in. This is an extremely newbie strategy that is easily countered by a medium group of Hydralisks. A true waste of minerals if ever I saw it.

Your Spore Colony placement is bad; you should've placed them so they covered your workers, as opposed to an arbitrary bit of your base. A Zealot rush would've truley raped you if the Protoss had been smart enough to do one, too...

Your opponent is quite a newbie. He castles himself in and techs straight to Carriers. If you manage to learn how to do an early-game rush you will absolutely drill him.

You've almost mined out your main and you have only just expanded. Your scouting is absolutely non-existant, too. Don't worry; active scouting is one of the hardest things to get a handle on, because it's easy to forget about it.

You sent your Hydralisk army in the completely wrong direction. You should have scouted out where his starting base was way back in the beginning.

Your macromanagement is okey and you're starting to expand properly at this stage.

Okey... you began to rip through his cannons - good. When the Carriers came you should've backed off, because you were being fired at by mass Cannons and mass Carriers where you were. Why did you stop producing Hydralisks?

Just looking at how the game's playing out, you may even have been able to tech up to mass Guardians and Devourers. Remember that if you do this you really should leave a group of Mutalisks un-evolved as their Glaive attack works wonders when complimented by a Devourers' Acid Spores.

You're losing your huge army of Hydralisks because of the way you're attacking. You're sending them in in single-file in bursts of a group of 12. You really needed to rush all the Hydras in at once. Would've been better to attack the main instead of that expansion, but oh well...

I just realised your biggest problem. Listen up, because this lost you the game. You're giving them move commands. NO! You're essentially just walking your army in and getting them shot to shit, without attacking back. You need to issue attack-move commands. Instead of telling your units to "move" to a location, click on "attack" and then the location instead. This will make your units attack any enemy units they encounter en route. Wow... that was by far your biggest problem...

Hell... look at how many minerals you have! You should be doing some ungodly macromanagement right now, as well as an absurd amount of teching...

If I sound overly-critical don't worry; I could watch my own replays and pick out a long list of mistakes. I'm just mentioning everything in the hopes that you pick up a thing or two.

[lottrup]

Wow, what a reply! Thanks a lot.... I have read it several times and have som aditional queations.

active scouting too... you would've seen his fast expand if you'd been scouting, which is very risky for a Protoss to do in a PvZ on LT.Active scouting, how? Leave lings in places of minerals, or letting them patrol an area?

The Protoss has cannoned himself in. This is an extremely newbie strategy that is easily countered by a medium group of Hydralisks. A true waste of minerals if ever I saw it.Countered by attacing I guess?

Your opponent is quite a newbie. He castles himself in and techs straight to Carriers. If you manage to learn how to do an early-game rush you will absolutely drill him.I know that it would be easy to rush, but we have an agrement no to.

You sent your Hydralisk army in the completely wrong direction. You should have scouted out where his starting base was way back in the beginning. Agreed. Here scouting would have been good. I gave up finding him in the beginning, because it took so long time, and I would have lost the overlord.

Your macromanagement is okey and you're starting to expand properly at this stage.What do you meen by macromanagement?

Just looking at how the game's playing out, you may even have been able to tech up to mass Guardians and Devourers. That is my favorite weapon, but it seem I need way to many Devourers fo fight his gangs of Crossair.

I just realised your biggest problem. Listen up, because this lost you the game. You're giving them move commands. NO! You're essentially just walking your army in and getting them shot to shit, without attacking back. You need to issue attack-move commands. Instead of telling your units to "move" to a location, click on "attack" and then the location instead. This will make your units attack any enemy units they encounter en route. Wow... that was by far your biggest problem...You are right. I did not know that there was such a big difference. How do I do it? Just pres "Attack" at the point where I want them to go to?

only 1 can mine from a mineral field at once.Is that really so? I dident know.

Thanks a lot. There was some really good points, that I will try next time.

[VYTOCRAFT]

L.Move move stupid coakroaches!
L.fighters aproaching 6'clock!
Hydra.whaaaaahwwhhhhhhhhhasseees?
L.Move move and do not forggot to die!!
Hydra.wheeeeeekk!!!??

[Cpt.Chronic]

Wow, what a reply! Thanks a lot.... I have read it several times and have som aditional queations.

Active scouting, how? Leave lings in places of minerals, or letting them patrol an area? Yes, lings and ovies make excellent scouts, but since he had corsairs, it makes it harder to scout with ovies, so just use lings. You can even research burrow and burrow a ling at each mineral node.

Countered by attacing I guess? Or by dropping. This way you can bypass his cannons and go straight for the hear of his base. Or you could drop a couple lurks on his expansion cliff.

I know that it would be easy to rush, but we have an agrement no to. That's a stupid agreement- rushing/early pressure is part of the game. But since this is the case, why don't you early expand, or hell double expand.

Agreed. Here scouting would have been good. I gave up finding him in the beginning, because it took so long time, and I would have lost the overlord. Why would your ovie have died? Just don't run it into any cannons and you can scout the toss base because they usually don't have any early troops that can attack air. Sometimes it's even good to sacrifice an overlord to scout someone's base mid-game.

What do you meen by macromanagement? Using all your resources as they come in is ahving good macro. The way you do this is a) constantly building troops, in your case, hydras; b) building more troop producing buildings; c) expanding; d) upgrading weapons/armor and teching. If you would have had a couple defilers you could have attacked his choke and not have lost any troops to cannons or carriers with the use of darkswarm. Be sure to research consume first so you can continuously cast darkswarm and plague is also good vs carriers.

You are right. I did not know that there was such a big difference. How do I do it? Just pres "Attack" at the point where I want them to go to? You need to familiarize yourself with the hotkeys. For attack, just select a group, hit the "A" button, and click on the area you want to attack. It's faster to use these hotkeys instead of using the mouse to select the command. You should also use them when building troops. For instance, when you are pumping hydra it's much faster to select a hatchery, then hit "s", "h". A lot of zerg like to hotkey their hatcheries to numbers on the keyboard by holding "cntrl" and tapping "0-9" to hotkey the hatchery. This way, to mass produce hydra, you would just type "1, s, h", "2, s, h", "3, s, h" and so on.

[Garrec]

As for so many drones, I've found that it's good to put 3-4 drones on each extractor (4 if it's farther away). To maximize efficiency, there should be a slight backup, where 1 drone is waiting. But any more than that is un-necessary.

As for minerals, yes, only 1 drone can mine from a mineral field at 1 time, and a good rule to go by is to have 2 drones for each field. While 1 is chipping away, the other can haul it's load back to the hatchery.

If I counted right, you had 37 drones minining from 8 mineral fields minerals, and only 2 mining your extractor. You could have placed an extra one on your extractor to get gas just a little bit faster.

[skeet]

yes you dont just attack move either, click attack. then click on the carriers. you have gotten some good advice.

[ReD_ICE]

haha, ur fine lottrup, all u gotta do is continously build hydras like hell (dont forget those overlords), and like schwitzer said, the attack command. If you manage both these problems, ur friend's not a problem.


As for minerals, yes, only 1 drone can mine from a mineral field at 1 time, and a good rule to go by is to have 2 drones for each field. While 1 is chipping away, the other can haul it's load back to the hatchery.

If I counted right, you had 37 drones minining from 8 mineral fields minerals, and only 2 mining your extractor. You could have placed an extra one on your extractor to get gas just a little bit faster.
He is damn right ppl, 2 drones for every mineral is a BASIC that should be followed by all players, any more/less is not good for resource-managment. You can definitely be building more drones than that early in the game, and then when you have ur 2nd expansion, u wouldnt have to wait forever for the drones in ur 2nd expansion to hatch while its empty with no drones, you just take a few from ur main, and order them to mine from the 2nd.

[ReD_ICE]

you know what u also need to do? ....make scourages!!! those carriers can be wiped out just like that....they're useless, and think about dropping ur hydras directly to his base too.

[X-Master2]

The one thing I dont think was mentioned in this thread that I am sure every one over looked (sorry if you did metion this I only skimmed this, red_ice already pointed out the obivous and i forgot to edit after i saw post just before i logged off, if that makes any one feel better.) was the scourge unit. Little tiny flying bombs designed to take out your opponents expensive BCs and carriers. They are only good if you directly control them against carriers other wise they will smash into interceptors. Most units are not very good aganist carriers, unless the player directly controls them. Maybe a combo of some other air units and the scourge can be useful for defeating them. My favorite thing to do is let my air units and spore colonies battle the carriers while my ground units are busy attacking enemies base.

[ReD_ICE]

dude...i just mentioned that in the post above...

[X-Master2]

......not on warboards.org every freeking second of the day, and i didn't have time to read all of the posts, and i already aplogized in advanced if any one bothered to take the time to read the entire thing.

[Sambo83]

Anyone who thinks that defeating carrier/sair is as easy as massing hydralisks, I'd be glad to play a game with you.

Also, agreeing not to rush is a newbie way to play. If you insist on doing this rather than learning how to play, then just build 5 hatcheries before anything else, each one at a new resource node and power drones. You should thenbe able to have 200/200 in 2-2 hydralisks within the first 12-15 minutes of the game, then you can go afk waiting for the NR period to end.

[Shroom_Freak]

Jus one thing that i wanna add. Watch pro replays, they really help u out.
I'm sure most of you will agree with me on that one. You see basic strats and the replays can serve as a motivation to play like that one day.

Here are some sites you can dowload from.

http://www.supremestarcraft.com/repdb/
http://www.teamareola.com/replaySecular.php
http://www.gamingeye.com/pc/strategi/starcraft/proreplays/index.eye?PHPSESSID=159467617d94a32ccb9ebca18845d8 2e

njoy

[Sambo83]

Thanks for those sites. I've been looking for something like that. Do you have any more?

[Alexisonfire]

http://ygclan.vgaclub.co.kr/

best sc site made use the top right search bar and just put in a pro players name and some of there replays come up (sites in chinese)

[Shroom_Freak]

No problem. I found the sites by typing "starcraft pro replays" in google.com. You'll probably find more if you keep looking, try it.

[X-Master2]

thats what I use too, to search for any thing I need for StarCraft.

[Tushka_Nahola]

Get devourers have them attack the carriers directly, then have scourges attack carriers it will work.I often play with a friend. We dont rush. I always play zerg, he protos.

I soon get a problem with defending me from his crossair and carrieres. He usually has 5 of each, and I cant beat them.

It seems like I need to have a combination of a lot of different units to defend my self.

Any surgestions?

[ReD_ICE]

anyway, all it really takes is control (micro), cuz by the number of ur hydras, u could win no doubt. You actually dont need to make scourages, cuz that would cost u the spire + gas. Instead, u can mass hydra, just like u did, except with a little control, and then carriers are not a problem.

[IceFlare]

If he goes carriers, have a force of scourges @ the back and clone 6 to each carrier and boom, scourges are the official carrier killers since the interceptors cannot track the scourges fast enough to kill them. And flank your scourges so that the sairs will not rape all ur scourges @ once since 5x5 splash damage is usually enough to kill your scourges

[thefazant]

ygclan actually has a rep of staind

[Cpt.Chronic]

ygclan actually has a rep of staind You have a link? Is it an older game or is Staind playing again?

[ZeroCross]

Scourges do rape carriers, however, I myself have made the mistake of thinking scourges alone can take carriers one time when an player was attacking my base with about a dozne carriers.. My opponent was able to nutralize more of my scourges than i thought. At least half of them went down before hitting, even though he was reasonably distracted by a few colonies.

In any case, scourge are a terrible idea unless you have your enemy very occupied, or have spores on them. That's another reason the devourer's are such a key unit to the zerg. As long as you use them right, and cover help with hydralisks, you should slow them down and nutralize the corsairs to a degree where your scourge can make some better headway.

In any case, Hydras with darkswarm should be a pretty good counter to this in any case. Darkswarm is superior to any disruption web the corsairs throw down because A: it's radius is greater, B: it lasts longer, and C: the defiler can recharge it's energy by eating a spare unit. The corsair's cant. So really, unless the protoss brings some templar or zealots in with him (cue lurkers), the only time you have to worry is if he ignores your units and just starts pounding on your buildings.

[ReD_ICE]

Not if u have tons of scourages...the corsairs will never have time to finish all of the before the scourages explode. Also, u could upgrade the air armor (it obviously wont make MUCH difference, but still a little)

[IceFlare]

12 corsairs... 5+3 dmg (i think this is right, correct me if im wrong) rapid attack very low cooldown, no matter how well you flank i dun think ur massive army of scourges.... 400 max can kill your entire fleet of sairs because with the splash damage a couple die @ a time and idk

[ReD_ICE]

with the case of corsairs, i'd have to agree