SCUMS and Customs FAQs for StarCraft.org

[BSTRhino]

Hi there, I was just wondering if any of you had any ideas for the new SCUMS and Customs FAQs I was going to put on StarCraft.org.

And if anyone would be interested in writing a hyper triggers tutorial? (tell us everything you know about hyper triggers, including the stuff about how 3 hyper triggers is optimal)

[Doom_Dragoon]

Oh ok, since you asked so nicely. Expect it tomorrow.

[Nozomu]

Aw, man... How about letting me participate, Doom? All I can do from where I am is make documents, not maps. Doom, I suggest making it an all-encompassing Wait tutorial. I mean, the order of trigger operations has everything to do with the Wait action. You can create intricately-timed systems with proper Wait placement. Can I help you with it?

[Doom_Dragoon]

I know so much about waits though... (listening to Bolt explain it so much and with some side testing). How about this. I'll write up hypers only and you can do waits. Then I'll practically copy and paste it to EOSE?

[Doom_Dragoon]

The Mechanics of the Hyper Trigger

Have you ever played/made a map where triggers seemed to fire too slow? For instance, you die in an RPG because the heal beacon doesn't heal you fast enough, as is the problem with X-Men. Well, properly used hyper triggers can make thos little problems vanish. We'll take a quick look at what a wait does to understand how hyper triggers work.

When SC hits a wait, which are Waits, Transmissions, and Center View (only in Single Player), Starcraft halts all the actions following that wait, continues down the list, then returns to the top of the list and goes down until it reaches the halted trigger again, wherein it resumes the trigger. Keep in mind that it will not rerun the triggers preceding it until the next trigger cycle.runs every other trigger in the map. This is because SC cannot afford to wait out each wait before continuing with the rest of the triggers. Usually, if your conditions do not conflict then there is no problem. If done wrong, hyper triggers can make your map a nightmare. Everything wait-related is thrown off and many other things. For this reason you should never put hyper triggers owned for a player with other wait actions. Usually the safest place to put them is for a computer player.

Now that we understand that, let's look at hyper-triggers. Now for this we're going to use 3 triggers of 2 waits. Now remember that each time SC hits a wait, it re-runs the entire trigger loop. When it finishes, it resumes the trigger of the wait it was in. Here's an example.

-=Conditions:=-
-Always
-=Actions:=-
-Wait 0
-Create 1 marine for current player at anywhere
-Preserve Trigger

-=Conditions:=-
-Always
-=Actions:=-
-Create 1 Hydralisk for current player at Anywhere
-Preserve Trigger

Now in this case, a hydralisk would spawn, then a marine, then another hydralisk, resulting in 3 units rather than 2, which most would think. This is because when SC hits that first wait 0 it pauses the trigger, then re-runs the entire trigger list. Since it's running the Marine one, it skips it and runs the hydra trigger. The conditions (always) are satisfied, so the trigger is executed. The Hydra is created. Since there are no more tiggers, SC resumes the marine trigger. A marine is created. Then it finishes of the current trigger cycle and creates another hydralisk. So basically, the trigger cycle was just run twice. Anyway, on to hyper triggers.

A basic set of hyper triggers should look like this.

-=Conditions:=-
-Always
-=Actions:=-
-Comment: "" (Leave it blank to save strings or don't put a comment at all)
-Wait 0
-Wait 0
-Wait 0
-(copy until you cant anymore then delete 1)
-Preserve Trigger

Copy this trigger twice. Any more is overdoing it.

Now you may think that this just eliminates the 2-second wait after each trigger cycle, but this is not the case. Hyper Trigger merely push the 2-second delay back. Now eventually your hypers would expire, 2-second delay, then resume again, but with this many waits, it would take nearly 5 hours. Now to further understand this we'll need to look at multiple waits and how they affect each other.

Normally when SC hits a wait it does the above mentioned, but what happens when it hits another wait during the cycle? Well, let's see...

-=Conditions:=-
-Always
=-Actions:=-
-Wait 0
-Create 1 marine for current player at anywhere
-Preserve Trigger

-=Conditions:=-
-Always
=-Actions:=-
-Wait 0
-Create 1 hydralisk for current player at anywhere
-Preserve Trigger

Now here's what happens. The first trigger runs, then the second trigger forces the first to run again. The result is 2 marines and 1 hydralisk. Trigger cycles are everything. The more trigger cycles, the more time it takes to get to that 2-second delay.

Finally, let's look at how the waits would run. Keep in mind that waits run by priority. If we assigned each wait a letter and we had 3 triggers of two waits we end up with A-F and the fireing sequence would look like this.

ABCABDABEABCABDABFABCABDAB

Now let's break it down. A and B run, then C forces A and B to run again, then it runs itself, then D forces A and B to run yet again, then it runs itself. We'll label this entire cycle C1. Next E forces C1 to run again then it runs itself. F does the same thing.

There we go. Done, did, finito.

Thanks to Bolt for helping me out with this as well.

[Nozomu]

I think you're covering the order of trigger operations pretty well... Oh well. Just remember to explain why three Hyper Triggers with 62 Waits each is all you'll ever need.

[Doom_Dragoon]

I did, now after discussing it with Bolt and making sure everything is accurate, I'm not sure what to add...

[Dark_Soul74]

Wow. Nice. Now I actually know what the hell they do, exactly.

[Geno]

Really, if you have 3 wait triggers, and copy it once, don't you really have 9 waits? And the same would be true as in 4 waits copied once, gets you 16? It runs the triggers in a certain facsion... I remember Nomozu or someone talking about it on BF once...
Wait set 1
Wait A
Wait B
Wait C

Wait set 2
Wait D
Wait E
Wait F

This would be run as: ABCDABCEABCF then pause, and restart.

Now, let's make it more complicated:
Wait set 1
Wait A
Wait B

Wait set 2
Wait C
Wait D

Wait set 3
Wait E
Wait F

It SHOULD run as ABCE ABCF ABDE ABDF

Giving a total of 16 waits... I think that's how it would eventually work... If that isn't it, I believe it's a combination to get you 2*2*2 or 8 waits.. I forget how it exactly reads... But there is a way to explain it... DD is the best for it x.x

Oh well... Just trying to explain something that I have no comprehention of... I just make maps... Simple as that... o.O

~Larry "Sticks to making maps Geno" Meyers

[Doom_Dragoon]

If you're talking about trigger cycles and 3 triggers with 2 waits, it would come out to 26 not 16. It would be ABCABDABEABCABDABFABCABDAB

[BSTRhino]

Wow guys, this is great! I was going to settle for just a little tutorial that said 'fill a trigger with wait 0s and you get hyper triggers.' This exceeds my expectations. Good job!

So... is that the finished product Doom?

[Mechsaurian]

If you need me to do a tut on .bin editing or arsenal or something, ask away. Or is this a trigger related thread? Anyhow, I have been practicing quite a bit with ICE and Arsenal; I'm fairly confident in my abilty to create a competent, helpful guide for up-and-coming modders (remember my e-mail, BST? I do. I never got around to replying, so here I am). As incompetent as I may seem (I remember the multitude of stupid questions I asked spamming the maps section of BF) I have come quite a ways since then.

All right. Cards on the table.

Truth is, I want to design a tutorial for customs-sis-sing. I'd like to be entrusted with a big responsibility I can do ON MY OWN rather than on a team. Do you trust me, Rhino?

Two things before I sit and wait behind my screen all night for a reply:

1. This thread needs to be stickied. I'm sure many young modders and mappers will find it useful.

2. I can't make the tutorial tomorrow, maybe on Sunday. I'm going snowboarding. Hopefully I'll be back at a reasonable hour so I can check this thread.

[Geno]

I knew I was off... I read about it somewhere before, and tested it, and sure enough, it fired more than just 6 times... That was a while back though... Thanks for getting that straightened out DD ^.^

All we have to do now is figure the exact number of waits to create a constant flow... o.O

~Larry "Geno" Meyers

[Nozomu]

3 trigs with 62 waits each lasts for almost 6 hours. Bolt chewed me out about it over at Team SE, 'cause I quoted it at 53 minutes... All you need are 3 full trigs.

[BSTRhino]

Almost six hours... did he time it or calculate it? Hehe, I couldn't imagine timing for six hours, that's dedication lol.

And Tiga, if you want to write a tutorial, you can choose your favourite topic, I don't mind. We don't really -need- anything, so I'll leave it up to you. I remember you and the 'Modding questions' or whatever it was called thread, I'm glad to hear you've really caught onto modding!

I'm not really sure about stickifying this, what I was planning to do was to put all your tutorials on the website. They'd get more hits there, and we could also reference them from that other sticky thread.

Does that sound like a good idea?

[Geno]

Sounds good. Do what you will. I just think we need the references in a place where everyone will see it, and a lot of people visit. You know what I mean ;)

~Larry "Geno" Meyers

[Doom_Dragoon]

Sorry guys, I had IP conflictions here at home. Anyway, that is the finished product if unless anyone can think of something I missed. Oh wait, I want to add one last thing explaining how the waits would run.

Post Updated

[Dark_Soul74]

I have started making a in-depth and animated guide to making custom weapons, including graphics.(not import though, I'll convienently leave that out....BST hasn't taught me yet :()
I've got half of the Arsenal part done. :D

[Nozomu]

He timed it, BST. Actually, I did, too, a long time ago, but I never wrote it down. I just remembered that 3 hyper triggers are enough. Bolt, however, did write it down.

[BSTRhino]

Great, how cool. So... you wanted to add that bit Doom?

http://www.blizzforums.com/showthread.php?t=36990

Can someone tell Oaf there are two kinds of overlays/underlays. Sprites are separate and get left behind. Like the anti-matter missile smoke trails.

Images are part of the unit/weapon. (technically it's the main sprite) For example, shadows or the archon stripe things that fly around it. Separate images, but need to follow the main unit.

He can find the sprites list from the sprites editor, and the images list from the image editor in Arsenal III. Just remind him that it's not wise to save those two files with Arsenal III, I've found it corrupts the files.

[Doom_Dragoon]

I added my bit already, so feel free to use it freely guys. Just give me credit por favor.

[BSTRhino]

so the whole post right down to 'thanks to bolt' whatever is the tutorial? Okay, I'll copy it over to StarCraft.org and put it on the front page. I always get it done, but maybe not straight away... you might have to wait a week or two.

[Doom_Dragoon]

That's fine, lol. I know how it feels to procrastinate. Gotta love it... good times!

[BSTRhino]

heh, no it's not that, it's just that I only get to access the StarCraft.org FTP and admin panel after school, sharing time with dinner, checking feedback, posting news that doesn't really matter anyway, and other important things, and also having to compete for the internet with the other members of my family, so usually it's around 11 PM for about half an hour.

But, at school I can write a lot of the code offline. I've already written up all the HTML code for your tutorial, but I can only see whether the layout works when I get home, which means it'll probably be delayed a few days.

When I look back over the past few weeks, it's amazing how much stuff I've got done without having access for 23 hours of the day.