are lurkers important

[general_hydra]

i've won many times in battlenet and i still have only like 2 lurkers
ppl say that lurkers are a important defense
if so , why?
what do you think?

[Calibur]

Lurkers are good defense because of the element of stealth.
For example the emeny is a about to drop a bunch of nats near you mineral gatheres, then as soon as they try to attack a lurker takes them all out. Also lurkers can be good suportt units, let me explain with one of my favorite strategies.
Ingredients:
1)defiler
2)Pack of hydras
3)2-3 lurkers.

Let say you are about to attack a heavily guarded enemy base or outpost, so you sent in your pack of hydras and just as the enemy thinks hes gona own them with his bcs you use dark swarm and rip his bcs. Then he tries to stopr you by sending in a group of marines and bats. Thats when you startegicaly place your lurkers to cover your pack of hydras. The fire bats will fall quickly to lurker splash damage, then the lurkers will attack the marines doing enough damage for the hydras to kill them in seconds. After wards you can do what I usually do, which is send in mass hordes of zergling to rip what ever is left of your enemy.

[viXen3]

i've won many times in battlenet and i still have only like 2 lurkers
ppl say that lurkers are a important defense
if so , why?
what do you think?
i also the crazy fans of lucker, yes, lucker defenitely is a great defence since ur enemy might not seen u when they drop u or attack u directly, even they are affraid to sent in a detector since it is hard to see it when there are hydra or spore unless for terran got the scan, by the way i also think lucker not just a good defence but also a great force to attack, it can join with any other unit, such as ling, hydra, muta, or any other else, it is important for the race not just defense.

[Lain]

I myself am a terran player. So heres MY point of view towards the lurker.

Marine: "Are we Almost to the zerg base?"

Firebat: "A little bit further"

MArine: "Uh..? Whats that headed toward/$%^ss/fd AAAAAAAH!!!!! OH GOD HELP!!!! %&$


Me, Game player: "Huh? Now whered my army go. Damn you Zerg player!"

[RuneWalsh]

Lurkers are important if you want a victory in mid game. I usually find myself slipping in one or two inside of overlords and then flying over behind my enemies main hatchery/CC/Nexus. I've imagined it as

Opponent:Sweet, I almost have enough Minerals to make my dark templars. Um...why is my Nexus on fire? And where are my probes?! CRAP!!!!!

You:MUAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

opponent: any chance of ally?

your terran ally: Nuclear launch detected

opponent: damn

[Darkslayer633]

Lurkers in my oppinion are not an absolute nesisity like say hydras, but ther are very useful for many things, like you could put a few at the choke(s) of your base and you could also put one or two at an resource spot to alert you if the enemy goes there. or as defense that can move.

Lurkers are important if you want a victory in mid game. I usually find myself slipping in one or two inside of overlords and then flying over behind my enemies main hatchery/CC/Nexus. I've imagined it as

Opponent:Sweet, I almost have enough Minerals to make my dark templars. Um...why is my Nexus on fire? And where are my probes?! CRAP!!!!!

You:MUAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

opponent: any chance of ally?

your terran ally: Nuclear launch detected

opponent: damnum... nuculear launch in mid game u must have a very very and a few more verys fast terran player who can defend himself and get nukes by mid games. can you say money map

[Seraph_Knight]

-deleted-

[UA-drpeppa]

A few wisely used lurkers in a ground attack can do wonders, 2 or 3 lurkers with some hydras can take out dozens of marines/firebats/hydras/lings, even with detector backup. I wouldn't recommend using them in an attack against a protoss base, unless you've already gotten past the photon cannons. Dropping a few in a rescource spot to attack workers also works well, you might even want to have a couple in your main rescource spot in case of people dropping there.
Personally, even though this might not be the best idea, I like to have 2 or 3 lurkers at the chokepoint(s) of my base, especially on top of the ramp in LT, for example. Its also pretty funny to have a few lurkers across different random spots in the middle of a map, or in empty rescource spots. Works as a pretty good reconnaissance, but burrowed lings would probably be better.

[Spartan-II]

I like burrowing 1-2 lurkers behind undefended expoes so if something comes to build it gets dead fast ^_^

[Ragnarox]

I believe that lurkers are very important because they are very flexible in my eyes.

You can use them offensively, closing your enemy into one area.

Defensive, isn't this one obvious?

Drop assault, another obvious one.

Harassment, preventing your opponent from getting resources on expansions.

lovely little ass monkies those lurkers.

[Garrec]

I was playing a LAN match as Zerg, and one of my friends was Terran. Figuring that siege tanks could be a problem later on, I figured I had better stage an attack. Using a small task force of a few hydralisks and maybe 3 lurkers, I managed to completely cripple his base. My opponent had 2 full bunkers, and NO turrets or comsat. I burrowed my lurkers, and removed the bunkers. Upon entering inside his base, where he was mobilizing a defense of marines and firebats, I moved my two lurkers from the perimeter defense to the inside, where they completely decimated all chances of resistance, even though he had newly constructed a comsat. Infantry do NOT fare well against lurkers. I could hide my hydralisks behind the protection of my lurkers. So it's kind of like defending your attack force, even when you're on the offense. I finished him off with a few hydralisks and zerglings. We're all newbs, but it was still a satisfying defeat.

I've been practicing on my lurker micromanagement against the computer, and it's helped a bit. Throw in some defilers with dark swarm, and a few groups of hydralisks and zerglings, and you have an awesome attack force, where lurkers play a key role.

[Spartan-II]

The best way to kill anything under swarm is A) Dark templar B) Ultralisks

[VYTOCRAFT]

All units for Z/P/T is VERY important and VERY srong(if used WELL):)))

[Zergfire]

Lurkers are VERY important. They are like reavers for the Zerg

[Spartan-II]

Lurkers are VERY important. They are like reavers for the ZergNot really. A)They do 20 damage B) They dont have the range C) They Dont have as much health
I don't think you know what your talking about v.v

[Schwitzer]

Lurkers are VERY important. They are like reavers for the Zerg
Er... how?!

[Cpt.Chronic]

Er... how?! You can use both for quick drops and worker harrassing. Also, they both do splash damage. I'm not supporting his claim, but those were a few similarities I saw. Overall, the lurker is a much more crucial unit to the zerg's army than the reaver is to the toss army.

[MagnaAngel]

why is lurker good?
1. 20 dmg to everything
2. 6 range with splash
3. Can't see them without detector
4. Can use for offense/defense

[soljax]

Lurkers are necessary to beat m&m. There's no other way.

[Cross_Fire]

Lurkers are necessary to beat m&m. There's no other way.
Ultras own that...

[Schwitzer]

Yeah... you've got to be prepared to tech a bit in a Z v T. Ultralisks >>> M&M&F.

[soljax]

Yea, good one. When he brings his marines, medics, and tanks. Just show him a couple ultralisks. RIIIIGHt.

Until then, get lurkers.

[Ahzz]

Yea, good one. When he brings his marines, medics, and tanks. Just show him a couple ultralisks. RIIIIGHt.

Until then, get lurkers.
please, shut up, if you dont know how to play this game, and tell facts and argue about everything we say when we try to tell Zerg does not suck etc. "great zergs get owned by noob terran players" Lol... Why do I not, then get owned by terran players about the same to my skill? Played about same amount of games etc. Ultras you can do right after you get 3 gas exp, or then it is most useful, and try to get it by then. Earlier not so useful, since you get so little of them. Lurkers are important vs terrans, and if controlled properly with some lings or hydras, they own m&m totally, escpecially if terran is not too good, not noob though, either

[soljax]

please, shut up, if you dont know how to play this game, and tell facts and argue about everything we say when we try to tell Zerg does not suck etc. "great zergs get owned by noob terran players" Lol... Why do I not, then get owned by terran players about the same to my skill? Played about same amount of games etc. Ultras you can do right after you get 3 gas exp, or then it is most useful, and try to get it by then. Earlier not so useful, since you get so little of them. Lurkers are important vs terrans, and if controlled properly with some lings or hydras, they own m&m totally, escpecially if terran is not too good, not noob though, either
Where in this pathetic post are you disagreeing with what I said?

I said: Lurkers are absolutely necessary against the m&m swarm, because you can't get ultras by that time.

You: You're wrong, lurkers rape the m&m swarm, because you can't get ultras by that time.

..fucking dumbass

[Ahzz]

Usually lurkers make a fine addition to an ultra ling army... actually, almost always unless terrans go for machines, and I dont mean making masses of lurks, only a few are good to cause havoc (5-7 about is usually enough)

[GoatseS_BoxeR]

Lurkers are good
watch )Is(City make nada look like a noob lol with lurkers =)

[ReD_ICE]

ok...personally...im a terran player myself...but like all u ppl said, which is right), marine+medic cannot FLY, whereas mutals can, and what my friend (a better player than me who is zerg) does is get some mutals, and continuously harrass my back...== everytime i try to go for him, i would have to run my marines back, and shoo his mutals off, and then try to go for him again. Ofcourse, im not dumb, i DO have couple of turrets at home, but still....those mutals..very annoying...any suggestions? ps. if ur thinking of wraiths/valks, forget it, i wont waste my time/money teching to airs.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

why dont you try goliaths with the missile upgrade

[Sambo83]

Why don't you just keep a control group of m and m at your base. You don't have to send your entire force out.... also, make sure to irradiate large groups of mutas.

Goliaths suck against mutas, seeing as mutas are their counter. Disregard the poster above me -_-

And if he's making muta all game long like a dumbass (not switching to hydra/lurker or ling/lurker) then just make a valk or 2 or 3... the only extra building you need is an armory. The rest of the tech is already there for your vessels.

[Schwitzer]

Also, Science Vessels are not a waste in mid-to-late game TvZ... in fact, they're basically a requirement. :P

[MidnightGladius]

Yeah Schwitzer. Irradiate is the silver bullet for the Zerg. The only reason why you can't use it and only it is because the Blizzard guys said that Zerg buildings weren't "organic". Sure...

Anywho, Dmatrix and Irradiate your siege tank push. If you have the energy, it is able to kill any ground combo they can come up with (irradiate will kill an ultra before it can kill a tank with a full dmatrix)

[thefazant]

one irradiate doesnt kill an ultra

[Valjean]

one irradiate doesnt kill an ultra
It does if the ultra is being attacked by a d-matrixed tank is what he said.

[thefazant]

thats like me saying one marine shot kills an ultra

















if it only has 2 hp left.
and him saying siege tank push implies his tank is sieged which means they cant attack ultras

[MidnightGladius]

Since when can you tank push without unsieging your tanks (unless you're doing some sort of weird recall tank push)?

What I was saying is that if he sends ultras at your tanks, you dmatrix the tank, irridiate the ultra, and unsiege the tank and kill it.

You could also cast irradiate on the tank itself if he's sending lings so you don't waste your irradiate.

[Sambo83]

Irradiating ultras is kinda gay, the splash kills your marines.

[Valjean]

Irradiating ultras is kinda gay, the splash kills your marines.
If you keep them back far enough or have enough medics, wouldn't your marines not die?

[Cross_Fire]

If you keep them back far enough
In which case your just trying to out run a train. And if you are on the run, medics dont heal very good.

[Valjean]

I was assuming if the Ultra was fighting a tank and you had your M+M a bit behind the Tank.

[Cross_Fire]

I was assuming if the Ultra was fighting a tank and you had your M+M a bit behind the Tank.If you were playing me, in this situation I would try and do as much damage as possible. So would ignore your tank and charge your M&M's.

Even if I did continue to attack the tank, the ultra would finnish the tank off realitively quick, and move on to your M&M's. And if the ultra had full armor power up (which is usually the case) your Marines will do little to it, even if the Ultra was Iridated and weakend by the tank.

So in the end Ultra>M&Ms in a standard fight. However if M&M's were microed like a pro, the Marines could win.

[Schwitzer]

Hahaha, Irradiating Ultralisks is just a really bad idea. Save up your energy for Defence Matrix.

[Ragnarox]

Hahaha, Irradiating Ultralisks is just a really bad idea. Save up your energy for Defence Matrix.

OR, save the energy to irradiate the overlords.
OR save the energy for EMP against all the buried Defilers.

[Sambo83]

lol.. iradiating overlords and emping defilers are really stupid ideas. I'd rather irradiate an ultralisk.

Marines can't beat ultralisks no matter how they are microed.

Usually if zerg has ultralisks you aren't going to win, but the best bet is to probably dmatrix a couple marines.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Hahaha, Irradiating Ultralisks is just a really bad idea. Save up your energy for Defence Matrix.
No way man! Irradiating ultras owns. The thing about fighting ultras in tvz is positioning. If you have bad positioning no amount of d-matrix will save you from ultras, but if you have good positioning you won't need the d-matrix. Once you have your army in a good position (i.e. on top of a ramp) you can go mass irradiate his ultras so that when you innevitably have to move from your vantage point they will be much easier to kill.

[ReD_ICE]

actually, on the bright side, irradiating ultralisks are good since they will die for sure, its just a matter of time, and u could make the enemy look at his beautiful, expensive baby die slowly, painfully~ that would be fun, wouldnt it?

on second thought, thats a stupid idea, u might as well save up the energy, and retreat first (thats if u have tanks, and powerful firearms like them). U could save up the energy for using irradiate on ur own science vessel!! haha, how fun is that?! actually, it is very useful, then u would be able to circle ur science vessel(s) around those zerglings, and watch a whole lot of em die.

ps. Sambo...dude...which planet have u been on? Who said marines cant beat ultralisks no matter how they are microed? Have u actually seen a pro-replay? dude...ur funny...u are...u really are...

[Ahzz]

eh? sambo would own 3v1 with the skill of you, red_ice


actually, on the bright side, irradiating ultralisks are good since they will die for sure, its just a matter of time, and u could make the enemy look at his beautiful, expensive baby die slowly, painfully~ that would be fun, wouldnt it?


:D irradiate makes 300 dmg, ultras still have 100 + some more because they regenerate

U could save up the energy for using irradiate on ur own science vessel!! haha, how fun is that?! actually, it is very useful, then u would be able to circle ur science vessel(s) around those zerglings, and watch a whole lot of em die.

yea, beat zerglings if you have like 3 vessels irradiated all the time. But zerglings rarely are a big problem because m&m own 'em before they get close, usually.


ps. Sambo...dude...which planet have u been on? Who said marines cant beat ultralisks no matter how they are microed? Have u actually seen a pro-replay? dude...ur funny...u are...u really are...

if ultras have even some control, marines cannot win them, they just keep them away while tanks + irradiate makes the damage, well they make some too, but really little. You know why? because z has really often 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades once they get to ultras, and + ultra armor, makes 5+1 which is 6 carapace, marines make like... 1 damage at a time. Thats why they cannot beat ultras. Also, ultras kill them fast, and are ATLEAST as fast, when marines use stimpacks. (not 100% sure about this, but what I've seen is this...)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Well, here's a couple replays showing the power of irradiate vs. Ultras. I'm Chron[EoC] in the first one. The second one is Frode from Blizzforums, a much better player than myself.

[Sambo83]

Irradiate does 225 damage...

yea, beat zerglings if you have like 3 vessels irradiated all the time. But zerglings rarely are a big problem because m&m own 'em before they get close, usually.
The ultras take the damage allowing the zergling to rape. Ultras have priority targetting in the marine ai.

Yea, frode likes to irradiate ultras for some unknown reason. It's good to irradiate them when they are not attacking. You need to retreat and irradiate because obviously that's free damage.. irradiating them while they attack you is kinda gay. I can't really tell if it's good or bad overall, but it's gay that it splashes your marines too. I think matrix is better.

Ahzz, the terran players around here like to think that their pathetic little marines and irradiate are pretty tough, but we zergs know better. :D

[Cpt.Chronic]

Irradiate does 225 damage...


The ultras take the damage allowing the zergling to rape. Ultras have priority targetting in the marine ai.

Yea, frode likes to irradiate ultras for some unknown reason. It's not an unkown reason why he does it. Actually, you just subsconsiously explained 1 reason why irradiating is good vs ultras. When the ling/ultra force attacks your m&m the ultras will die 4 times as fast, allowing the rines to change targets to the lings much quicker, creating a pool of zerg blood where there once stood a formidable army.

It's good to irradiate them when they are not attacking. You need to retreat and irradiate because obviously that's free damage.. irradiating them while they attack you is kinda gay. I can't really tell if it's good or bad overall, but it's gay that it splashes your marines too. I think matrix is better. Yeah, like I said earlier-- Irradiate them when you are in a position where they can't attack you, not as they are attacking you.

[MidnightGladius]

Hey Sambo. When we were talking about ultra/ling combos, did anyone besides me have "spider mines" pop up in their heads?

Gosh, this thread is in a jumble. First we were talking about lurkers. Now, we just branched off to Entropy.

[Sambo83]

It's not an unkown reason why he does it. Actually, you just subsconsiously explained 1 reason why irradiating is good vs ultras. I don't know why you insist that it's "good" vs ultras. The only thing "good" vs ultras is bunker/tank. Then you can irradiate. Irradiate is... a mixed blessing vs ultras normally. A lot of people don't do it at all, but it can be useful.

I could post a bunch of replays of gaeko owning frode when frode irradiated his ultras, but that doesn't mean that irradiating ultras is good or bad.

creating a pool of zerg blood where there once stood a formidable army. rofl.. yea ok. Every time I see ultra/ling attack a terran force, just the opposite happens, irradiate or not.

Yeah, like I said earlier-- Irradiate them when you are in a position where they can't attack you, not as they are attacking you. Obviously.. if you can only do it at this time then irradiate will be effective, but irradiating them while they are charging at you is kinda dumb. Unless you have like 8+ vessels with mana you'd better save for matrix.

Hey Sambo. When we were talking about ultra/ling combos, did anyone besides me have "spider mines" pop up in their heads? Nope, you were the only newbie that had that idea. Most terrans won't even have a single vulture.

[Ahzz]

yea, beat zerglings if you have like 3 vessels irradiated all the time. But zerglings rarely are a big problem because m&m own 'em before they get close, usually.

The ultras take the damage allowing the zergling to rape. Ultras have priority targetting in the marine ai.

I meant in this, that if the Zerg has like only zerglings, and ónly a little bit of ultra (2-3 and zerglings ten time more). If there is a fine amount of m&m, the ultras will still die rather easily. Escpecially when t is defending. Though, if the Zerg has still a rather good micro and flanks him, The Zerg might win, but in my post I didn't mention Ultras, did I? :D Though, the idea about having only Zerglings vs T is kinda gay.



Nope, you were the only newbie that had that idea. Most terrans won't even have a single vulture.


Except if they deside to go metal vs Zerg.

[Sambo83]

They still probably wouldn't have any vultures or very few by the time you have ultra/ling... and if they are metal, you wouldn't be with ultra/ling anyhow, so the whole point is irrelevant.

[MidnightGladius]

But in theory, spider mines wouldnt be that bad against ultras.

Of course, in reality, metal vs. zerg is doomed

[Cpt.Chronic]

I don't know why you insist that it's "good" vs ultras. The only thing "good" vs ultras is bunker/tank. Then you can irradiate. Irradiate is... a mixed blessing vs ultras normally. A lot of people don't do it at all, but it can be useful. Ok, you're right. It's better to fight a full health ultra than it is to fight one with only 1/4 of it's health. Why didn't I see this before? /END SARCASM

I could post a bunch of replays of gaeko owning frode when frode irradiated his ultras, but that doesn't mean that irradiating ultras is good or bad. Obviously there are going to be replays where terran gets owned by ultra/ling as that is a tough combo to beat if their numbers get high through not containing the zerg economy earlier in the game. The reason zerg goes ultra/ling is because its an effective tactic that takes less micro than other tactics. What exactly was your point?

rofl.. yea ok. Every time I see ultra/ling attack a terran force, just the opposite happens, irradiate or not. I don't know why you think that ultra/ling is a death sentence for terran. Sure, it's difficult to beat (just as lurk/defiler is difficult to beat, actually, even moreso than ultra/ling if done properly), but it's not impossible. In fact, not anywhere near impossible.

Obviously.. if you can only do it at this time then irradiate will be effective, but irradiating them while they are charging at you is kinda dumb. Ok, glad you agree with me (but oddly makes me wonder why you're arguing with me). It's not hard to be in a position to do this as really the only time the zerg will completely rape the terran is when the terran is on the move towards a zerg base.

[Sambo83]

=/

Using irradiate on ultras is usually more trouble than it's worth because you can't always just irradiate them when they are sitting around. Good zergs have their army in constant motion, and you always have to respond to it, and you always come out on the losing side of the conflict.

Ultra/ling doesn't require "less micro" than any other strategy.

Terran has no cost effective counter to ultra/ling. Survival depends on having more resources than the zerg, and using smart play to cut their economy. Flying around with a dropship of marines to kill drones while bunkering for instance. The only way to survive and win is to have the econ to do it since none of your units are cost effective.

If you went metal you would be cost effective against ultras.. mass tank and goliath, but in that case obviously your opponent wouldn't go ultra.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Using irradiate on ultras is usually more trouble than it's worth because you can't always just irradiate them when they are sitting around. Good zergs have their army in constant motion, and you always have to respond to it, and you always come out on the losing side of the conflict. They may be in constant motion running around the center of the map, but what is that going to do if they can't attack your choke or army (which should be at a choke if there is an ultra/ling army roaming the map) without getting decimated. This is when you irradiate them. Then you attack.

Ultra/ling doesn't require "less micro" than any other strategy. Oh, come on. The only better strategy is lurker/swarm which takes some of the most intensive micro in the game. Ultra/ling is based off of if you have the macro/economy to support it; not based on if you have the micro to control it.
Terran has no cost effective counter to ultra/ling. M&M is cost effective against all zerg units other than mass gaurdians (vessels with irradiate are needed here) or mass lurkers. 3/3 m&m can cost effectively fight ultra/ling as long as you don't lose your natural or mineral only expo.

Survival depends on having more resources than the zerg, and using smart play to cut their economy. Wow. That statement right there makes me wonder if you understand the matchup of zerg vs terran at all...well, at least the first half of the statement. Only early in the game (while the zerg is getting their natural expo up and running) is the terran going to have more resources than the zerg. To win a long/good game the zerg MUST expand and out mine the terran. Otherwise he has no chance because marines produce much faster than zerg units for less cost. The reason that it's so easy to switch to ultra/ling for zerg is because the nature of the matchup allows for them to have a larger economy than the terran in a long run so spending more resources per unit only makes sense. At the same time the terran has to work off his main/natural/mineral-only for practically the entire game for 2 main reasons: 1. It's very difficult to defend 2 seperate chokes from a full scale zerg assault, and 2. As a terran, it is not necessary to have a superior income because the terran's base unit (with sv and tank support of course) can compete with zerg's upper teir units.

Flying around with a dropship of marines to kill drones while bunkering for instance. Yes, this is a tried and true strategy, but it's not usually what will win you the game; although any successful harrassment is obviously a great benefit. Being able to build your mass of m&m while at the same time dropship harrassing is what really matters. What's great about this situation is usually by the time the zerg army is able to reach the expo the hatchery is already killed (obviously micro is needed if 1 or 2 lurkers are present as a zerg defense).

The only way to survive and win is to have the econ to do it since none of your units are cost effective. As I explained earlier, I do think that terran has cost effective units to counter ultra/ling, and is actually the reason why it is possible for a terran to destroy a zerg that has 6 bases compared to a terran that only has 3.

If you went metal you would be cost effective against ultras.. mass tank and goliath, but in that case obviously your opponent wouldn't go ultra. I'm not talking about going metal :/

[Sambo83]

You think you're just going to send out vessels by themselves and irradiate ultras. I'd like to meet some of the newbs you play. I will tutor them.

Oh, come on. The only better strategy is lurker/swarm which takes some of the most intensive micro in the game. Ultra/ling is based off of if you have the macro/economy to support it; not based on if you have the micro to control it.
Saying that ultra/ling takes "less micro" than other strategies is wholly irrelevant whether you're right or wrong, and has nothing to do with why it is effective.

M&M is cost effective against all zerg units other than mass gaurdians (vessels with irradiate are needed here) or mass lurkers. 3/3 m&m can cost effectively fight ultra/ling as long as you don't lose your natural or mineral only expo.
Marines and medics are ridiculously ineffective against ultra/ling which is why that strategy is used. (nothing to do with how much "micro" it takes.) Cost effective means that resource for resource it would win, not "if you have twice as much you might live."

To win a long/good game the zerg MUST expand and out mine the terran. Otherwise he has no chance because marines produce much faster than zerg units for less cost.
In the midgame zerg needs more resources, particularly more gas than terran to keep up, but once he reaches hive tech terran needs more resources to win. This is obvious. Terran uses his elementary force of marine/medic/tank/vessel all game whereas zerg introduces new units that are much more effective than lurk/ling or hydra/lurk.

By endgame a 2 base terran is on par or even slightly ahead of a zerg with 4 bases. Obviously. Terran will have some 50 scvs. If he has 3 gasses, he will have about equal resources with a 6 base zerg. His min only just makes up for his main being harvested out. Unless he can take it before that happens.

I'm not talking about going metal :/
I thought it was necessary to point out the only cost effective counter to ultra/ling which is tank/gol with about a 40/60 mix. Of course had you gone that route your opponent would certainly not make ultras, but nonetheless I thought it was important to point that out, regardless of what you "are talking about."

[thefazant]

i love it how sambo keeps trying to discuss strategy with people better then him, but is always proven wrong by the simple sentence 'sambo, you suck at sc so stop arguing about it'.

[Sambo83]

lol.. your argument is called "ad hominem," and it's a logical fallacy so you haven't proven anything. Regardless of whether I'm the best player alive or it's my first game playing, attacking me has nothing to do with the validity of my argument.

If gorush came here and posted that guardians are the best counter to corsairs, I would argue with him. You would probably just offer him felatio.

[Topace]

Lol this argument is so funny...

[Cross_Fire]

sambo, you suck at sc so stop arguing about it'.That is probably the most UN-intelegent statement I have ever heard.

Congrats, here is your award.

*Hands Fazant a hand full of air*

[Hayley]

A zerg with 6 bases, assuming they are all gas (who takes mineral only expos zvt??) would be almost impossible to beat, 3 base terran would do nothing at all vs 6 gas ultraling.

The reason you can't irradiate ultras effectively is because your vessels will get scourged if they move out without support and it's better to use dmatrix during fights when vessels will be protected.

3/3m&m is not cost effective vs fully-upped ultraling, only vs unupped, and even then it's pretty risky if they have 4gas.. Best way to play vs ultraling is to harass constantly while using bunker tank to defend your expos and getting lots of tanks + vessels + M&M and trying to get the zerg to commit to a poor position and wiping out their ultraling before they take the other 2 land gas.

And I don't know what you're smoking Cappy, M&M is not cost effective vs ultraling, guardians, hydralurker, or defiler + anything.. The only thing M&M is cost effective against is mutaling, and that's only when it's upped M&M.

[Sambo83]

lol.. that's basically what I said, although I think 3 gas terran (main nat island, min only if main is harvested out) is competitive with 6 base zerg. He will have harvested more resources, and his army is more mineral based.

So to continue with fazant's ad hominem based arguemnt, "Since Hayley is 100x better than you, you must be wrong."

[thefazant]

hayley isnt better then me, id say were equal, i think we went 1-1 or 2-2 or smth like that in pgt, and when she still played toss, she certainly wasnt better then me.

you have some weird idea that a strat only works when it can be logically explained, but well, thats just not right, some strats , when you write them down on a forum, dont seem to work at all, but in a real game they do, saying that i am better then you and because of that my knowledge on my own working (working on a level that you will never reach) strats is a lot larger then yours, so i dont have to write 3 pages is a lot easier then explaining every little aspect of a strat.
ad hominem arguments are perfectly justified, saying a strat doesnt work is incredibly easy, its like countering a strat with maphack on, but its completely different from doing it in a real game, something you dont realise, proved by the fact that you can switch to reavs to counter a zerg who is starting to pump ultraling

[Sambo83]

Logic is paramount. If a strategy doesn't make sense, it won't work. If it does happen to work, then it was luck.

It's very obvious that you don't understand the game even half as well as I do, regardless of how good you are at it.

saying that i am better then you and because of that my knowledge on my own working (working on a level that you will never reach) strats is a lot larger then yours, so i dont have to write 3 pages is a lot easier then explaining every little aspect of a strat.
No, it's an excuse you like to use because you don't have an answer. If you agree with Cappy in this thread, which you seemed to be implying with your little ad hominem attack, then you are simply wrong. I don't care if you are a newbie who can't beat a computer, or nal_ra. You would be wrong.

My starcraft skill has nothing to do with whether or not it's prudent to irradiate ultras, nor does it have anything to do with whether or not reavers are an effective counter to ultras. My skill level has nothing to do with the validity of those arguments, and therefore saying "you're wrong because you suck" is not a valid counter to the argument. Say you win the geography bee for your school, and you go on to come in 3rd in your entire state. Now assume that I don't know anything about geography at all, and I failed the class in school multiple times. If you say that Canada is in Africa, I would disagree with you, and I would be right. The validity of the point has NOTHING to do with the skill level of the person making the point. The sooner you realize this, the better off you will be, not only on this forum, but also in life.

[thefazant]

i agreed when cappy said irradiate is valid against ultras, imo vessels are the only answer to zerg hive tech, i havent really read the rest of the thread, if he says m&m are cost effective against ultras then hes retarded.
the point is that logic cant explain everything in starcraft first of all there are facets that cant be explained in words, they cant be taught, they come with experience and skill (the reason why 'i am better then you' is a good argument to claim that i know more then you when it comes to things like timing and psychology in sc is because 'i am better then you' proves i am more experienced and skilled when it comes to sc, even tho psychology and timing cant be proven logically), another thing is that you cant really apply basic math and logic to sc.
a small example.
+1 zeals against lings need 1 less shot to kill them, 2 instead of 3, logically, this would mean that 8 zeals equal 12 zeals when it comes to dmg and 8 zeals have 1/3 less hp then 12.
if you look at it this way, then +1 isnt worth it, cuz forge + the upgrade + assim + gas mining costs way more then 12-8 = 4 zeals, you should be better off with 4 zeals extra instead of +1.
this was the part of the +1 zeal strat that you can explain easily in words, and if you only look at this part, you might say getting +1 fast instead of more zeals is dumb.
the reason getting +1 is so much better then just getting more zeals, is because the +1 zeals can be microed a lot easier then normal zeals, they can be positioned a lot better, vs lurk ling you can kill lings before his lurks can burrow and then you can run, zergs get intimidated by the +1,... all this is impossible with normal zeals
there are so many factors that it cant be explained or proven, so sucky players like you should just shut up and listen to the better players because they are right even tho they cant always explain it, not everything can be explained.

[ZeroCross]

i agreed when cappy said irradiate is valid against ultras, imo vessels are the only answer to zerg hive tech, i havent really read the rest of the thread, if he says m&m are cost effective against ultras then hes retarded.
the point is that logic cant explain everything in starcraft first of all there are facets that cant be explained in words, they cant be taught, they come with experience and skill (the reason why 'i am better then you' is a good argument to claim that i know more then you when it comes to things like timing and psychology in sc is because 'i am better then you' proves i am more experienced and skilled when it comes to sc, even tho psychology and timing cant be proven logically), another thing is that you cant really apply basic math and logic to sc.
a small example.
+1 zeals against lings need 1 less shot to kill them, 2 instead of 3, logically, this would mean that 8 zeals equal 12 zeals when it comes to dmg and 8 zeals have 1/3 less hp then 12.
if you look at it this way, then +1 isnt worth it, cuz forge + the upgrade + assim + gas mining costs way more then 12-8 = 4 zeals, you should be better off with 4 zeals extra instead of +1.
this was the part of the +1 zeal strat that you can explain easily in words, and if you only look at this part, you might say getting +1 fast instead of more zeals is dumb.
the reason getting +1 is so much better then just getting more zeals, is because the +1 zeals can be microed a lot easier then normal zeals, they can be positioned a lot better, vs lurk ling you can kill lings before his lurks can burrow and then you can run, zergs get intimidated by the +1,... all this is impossible with normal zeals
there are so many factors that it cant be explained or proven, so sucky players like you should just shut up and listen to the better players because they are right even tho they cant always explain it, not everything can be explained. Stop talking! all your hot air is melting the walls! Seriously, I have never seen anyone so high on himself, it's amazing you can still see straight lines at this point. In any case, I find it amusing you tell other people to shut up and listen to others. The irony of that statment alone pretty pathetic.

Also, M&M against ultras being pathetic? That depends on how you use them. If you have ever taken a good look at the units of the game, the only thing the ultras have going for them is their defense. Due to their large size and melee attack, ultras do nothing but standing around taking hits at the slightest wall or narrow opening. Ultra virtually jump at the chance to get stuck in anything even remotly narrow, which, is filled plentily with. Now, if the terran player was a dumbass and just sent his M&ms in, instead of keeping his marines protected, then yea, they would'nt last long against a 20 hit per every half second or so with enough armor to almost negate their attack completely. Perhaps this is what you were referring to, I honestly could'nt understand with you being higher on yourself than a hippie in heaven.

[thefazant]

zerocross, youre retarded, my arrogance is completely valid, there is no one who posts regularly on this forum who even comes close to my skill, thats just a fact, so i really dont care if you think im high on myself, what does it matter?
can you beat me?
do you know more about starcraft then me?
does it matter that i am arrogant?

and yes, m&m vs ultras are pathetic, they do 3 dmg against a 400 hp unit while cracklings rape them, staying in youre base behind a choke point does nothing, you have to move out to destroy the zergs superior economy and once youre in the open youll get raped.

[Sambo83]

the reason why 'i am better then you' is a good argument to claim that i know more then you when it comes to things like timing and psychology in sc is because 'i am better then you' proves i am more experienced and skilled when it comes to sc, even tho psychology and timing cant be proven logically Being better than someone in something has nothing to do with how much knowledge you have of it. Psychology and timing can be broken down logically, although I do understand your ponit. It is possible to teach those aspects of the game, but it's difficult. You have to have a smart student.

Also, you have far less experience than I do. I played the game for 4 years before you ever heard of it, and I'm sure I've played 10x as many games as you.

the reason getting +1 is so much better then just getting more zeals, is because the +1 zeals can be microed a lot easier then normal zeals, they can be positioned a lot better, vs lurk ling you can kill lings before his lurks can burrow and then you can run, zergs get intimidated by the +1,... all this is impossible with normal zeals
there are so many factors that it cant be explained or proven Obviously they can be, as you just explained and proved this point very well. By explaining the point, you defeated your own argument. What you are getting at is that newbies don't take into consideration all of the variables. If you only look at the amount of damage dealt and hitpoints, then you would come to the conclusion that more zeals are better than +1.

When you consider all the variables including the dual usefulness of the forge in that you need it to provide cannons, and also the fact that future upgrades will not cost you another forge, so the entire cost of the forge shouldn't be factored in when considering the cost/benefit analysis of +1. Those are 2 more variables in addition to what you mentioned. When all variables are considered, you reach the logical conclusion that getting +1 reletively quickly is better than using the money for more zealots.

zerocross, youre retarded, my arrogance is completely valid, there is no one who posts regularly on this forum who even comes close to my skill, Which is irrelevant, because I'm by far a better teacher than you, and I know way more about this game than you could ever imagine. Also, Hayley is way better than you. If you beat her, she was probably fooling around. Did she mass queens?

Fazant, why do you suppose it is that Neverborn always agreed with me, when he posted at BF and disagreed with you? You couldn't beat him 1 game in 50, and he has an amazing understanding of this game.

[thefazant]

ive never played neverborn, but im pretty sure i can beat him way more then 1 game out of 50, and hayley was not fooling around vs me at all, i think you werent paying attention when i became top 3 blizzforums.

and i can list all the variables, but teaching things like good timing is practically impossible

oh, and sambo, stop thinking you know more then me about this game, if you know so much, then why do you suck so bad?
do you miss like 6 fingers or smth?

[UnHoly-Assassin]

You would know the significance of a lurker if you faced anyone who likes to use them.

Also irridating ultralisks can also damage units nearby. And since irridated ultras dont die, it'll be able to give the full effect on units nearby. Irridate does wonders, you can even irridate another science vessel and float it about their drones to kill them.

[ZeroCross]

zerocross, youre retarded, my arrogance is completely valid, there is no one who posts regularly on this forum who even comes close to my skill, thats just a fact, so i really dont care if you think im high on myself, what does it matter? I beleive a wiseman once said "there is no justification for pride" In any case, I would think it wise never to boast what is unknown. You, nor I, nor the the guy next door knows how good everyone on this site is exactly logicly and analyticly speaking. I just simply commented that you are the most pridefull person i have ever seen (or read anyways.) Meh, Maybe it's proof i dont get out much.

can you beat me? Dunno, if your looking for an SC challange, I suppose i could use someone to play non-money maps besides the computer. All my damn freinds (read as "Ex-freinds") became money map loving newbies when the damn thing first came out and now i hav'nt been able to find anyone to play a striaght non-money with. If your interested, I could play a couple games for fun tomarrow at about noon. By the way, i have seen a couple replays, you are quite notorius with those damn SCVs. (If anyone wants to play me, I would welcomly accept the practice on human, as long as it is not on a money map.)

do you know more about starcraft then me? With no quiz to take or such, it is near impossible to tell. Most of my problem in SC comes from lack of macro 5ki115, or whatever the hell they are called nowadays, as adversed to knowing what to use and when.

does it matter that i am arrogant? If you relate it to my previous attempted joke at your expense, yes. Otherwise, hellifiknow. I have a habbit of focusing on the un-inportant things in life and missing a point here and there. That's why the world is round, it has no point.

and yes, m&m vs ultras are pathetic, they do 3 dmg against a 400 hp unit while cracklings rape them, staying in youre base behind a choke point does nothing, you have to move out to destroy the zergs superior economy and once youre in the open youll get raped. yeah, really. If you are still releying on M&Ms when your enemy has ultras, what the hell have you guys been doing for the past five to fifteen minutes?
The only thing more sad is massing firebats against them.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Just to clarify what I was saying earlier: M&M are cost effecient against ultra/ling only when they outposition them, which is what I've been preaching this whole thread. If you take what I say out of context and think that m&m can stand toe-toe with ultraling in the middle of the map, well, obviously that's not true. But after you irradiate the ultras, dropship harrass, and have a ctrl group of tanks, that's when m&m becomes cost effecient against ultra/ling.

[Sambo83]

i think you werent paying attention when i became top 3 blizzforums.
rofl.. well here are the best players in blizzforums in order of skill, as I see it. Some people will have slightly different opinions of course.
marsala
neverborn - although he doesn't play anymore.
frode
hayley
prodigy
capitalist
then probably you. although staind might be in that list somewhere.. don't really know as he doesn't play much anymore. Last time I checked you were marginally better than munkeys. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when you got good, seeing as I try to ignore your posts as much as possible. You think you're better than Capitalist or Prodigy?

and i can list all the variables, but teaching things like good timing is practically impossible
So can I, and I would agree that timing is something that you must practice in order to learn. However you can guide your student to understand the timing better. There are certain subtle cues that you pick up. Those are what guide "timing."

oh, and sambo, stop thinking you know more then me about this game, if you know so much, then why do you suck so bad?
You keep making the same mistake, no matter how many times I try to point out where your error is.. maybe this story will help illustrate:

When I was like 13, I was in the local chess club. I had been playing for about 3 years, and I was a good player compared to others there. There were 3 teachers. One was a master, the other was an expert level player and the guy who worked with the younger kids and new players was Ron. A guy rated about 1400. Ron was an excellent teacher. He has an amazing grasp of the concepts of chess, and had been playing for over 20 years, and because of this, I even took private lessons from him at his house. He was no where near as good as me though. I beat him almost every single time including once in a USCF sanctioned rated tournament that had cash prizes.

I didn't understand the concepts of chess nearly as well as he did. I didn't know 1/100th as many openings or understand reasons behind moves half as well as he did, and I wouldn't have been anywhere near as good of a teacher though, and he taught me a lot about chess despite being a far worse player than I.

There is a very similar phenominon in starcraft. Despite the fact that I know more than you do about SC and have at least twice as much experience as you, I couldn't beat you once in 50 games. This is because you're probably faster, better at seizing opportunities, etc. While I know more, know better things to do, know how to accomplish certain tasks, you're better at actually doing them.

Zerocross, I guarantee that Fazant is the 2nd best player that posts here. Best is Hayley. :D

Just to clarify what I was saying earlier: M&M are cost effecient against ultra/ling only when they outposition them, which is what I've been preaching this whole thread.
M and M are never cost effective against ultra/ling, except when they are in bunkers or behind medics on a ramp, and those situations are irrelevant because if you sit there, the zerg will just make more and more units till he can overpower your defense, obviously.

after you irradiate the ultras, dropship harrass, and have a ctrl group of tanks, that's when m&m becomes cost effecient against ultra/ling.
It's the control group of tanks that is cost effective against ultralisks, not the marines and medics. When the tanks kill the ultralisks, the marines mop up the stray zerglings.

[ZeroCross]

Zerocross, I guarantee that Fazant is the 2nd best player that posts here. Best is Hayley. :D
Never said anything about him sucking at SC or the ilk. I was just prodding at his personality. By the way, I must meet this "hayley". Would make for some interesting learning experience ;) By the way, what gender is hayley? Never met or heard of him/her before.

Just to clarify what I was saying earlier: M&M are cost effecient against ultra/ling only when they outposition them, which is what I've been preaching this whole thread. If you take what I say out of context and think that m&m can stand toe-toe with ultraling in the middle of the map, well, obviously that's not true. But after you irradiate the ultras, dropship harrass, and have a ctrl group of tanks, that's when m&m becomes cost effecient against ultra/ling. Technicly, nearly any unit used with good enough Mad Macro skills! (inc.) could wipe out their opponent, but yes, the terrans with their ability to have ranged atacks on everything give them one of the few advatages they have over the other races to survive as a race in SC. Sorry if I took it out of context.

And by the way, one thing i love to do when I'm terran and my opponent i know is a ling rusher (could also work for ultras too) Wall up with marines behind, then fly Engineering bays over the wall. Anytime they try to attack the wall, the marines will fire upon them and get their attention again. This, mind you, will only work against melee units. Hydras and air units will foil your lazy defense scheme, damn them i say!

[Cpt.Chronic]

And by the way, one thing i love to do when I'm terran and my opponent i know is a ling rusher (could also work for ultras too) Wall up with marines behind, then fly Engineering bays over the wall. Anytime they try to attack the wall, the marines will fire upon them and get their attention again. This, mind you, will only work against melee units. Hydras and air units will foil your lazy defense scheme, damn them i say!




I have done something similar to this, but only in very rare situations and I use my rax instead of an ebay because the ebay wouldn't be built in time, and if it was, it'd still be a waste of early, much needed minerals. Usually, I'll only need to do this vs a zerg that has randomed and is doing a ling rush, because vs random I will tech instead of double rax opening so I won't have enough marines to hold the ramp on their own. If I know he's zerg and he's rushing (scouting is good) I will just send a couple scvs to hold position in front of the rines while I continue to use my rax to make rines.

[ReD_ICE]

lol..zerocross...wanna play with me? maybe i can teach u something about starcraft before great professor zero comes in here again to give everyone a big important lecture about a man and his pride..... anyway, host ur talk show some place else....^^"

[Sambo83]

By the way, I must meet this "hayley". Would make for some interesting learning experience By the way, what gender is hayley? Never met or heard of him/her before.
Hayley posts here.. Obviously, hayley is a girl's name. I think I've posted a few replays of games with her. Once I went 2 robo reaver and she mass DA -_-

[ReD_ICE]

but didn't wouldnt u have found out about the DA plan before u finished building ur robo?

[Sambo83]

No, I scouted her ramp, but only knew she was teching, didn't know it was DA. heh.. here's the replay, you might find it funny. :)

[ReD_ICE]

lol...mc...thats pretty useful...i once used mc against my friend who i knew already was gonna do carriers, so as SOON as his carriers came out of the stargate, i got them...lol...he was like.."holy shit!! what just happened?! where the fuck r my carriers?!! holy shit!!!!!!" ....anyway, mc is pretty cool

[Dwimmerlaik]

I like it when people send in there army of BCs, and then watch in horror as half of there own bcs turn around and yamato the rest of there asses of... Mc has to be one of my favorite abilities, especially when playing single player, and then use the cheat for infinate energy...

[MidnightGladius]

What was up with the replay? It ended for no apparent reason.

[thefazant]

rofl.. well here are the best players in blizzforums in order of skill, as I see it. Some people will have slightly different opinions of course.
marsala
neverborn - although he doesn't play anymore.
frode
hayley
prodigy
capitalist
then probably you. although staind might be in that list somewhere.. don't really know as he doesn't play much anymore. Last time I checked you were marginally better than munkeys. Maybe I wasn't paying attention when you got good, seeing as I try to ignore your posts as much as possible. You think you're better than Capitalist or Prodigy?
are you kidding me?
i have a 30-5 record or smth like that against prod.
i cant really remember the last serious game i played against cap, but i do know that everytime i play this game seriously for a month or so, i beat him almost every game and i always have a better record then him at every ladder.
i have never played neverborn so i cant say anything about him, altho im pretty sure frode is better then him.
marsala and frode are both better then me, altho i had a better pgt record then marsala, i think that frode is better then marsala tho.
hayley, like i said, i havent played here a lot lately, but her toss was not better then my terran, from what i remember i had a winning record against her, and i went 1-1 against her on pgt when she played zerg, so i wouldnt say she is better then me at all, id say were about equal, and she hardly posts at bf so i didnt really include her.
you obviously have no idea how good i became like a month ago, i hardly played any games in the last month and a half tho.


and being a good teacher does not equal having accurate knowledge, i know more about starcraft then you, its as simple as that, when we disagree about something, then i am right.

[Schwitzer]

I like it when people send in there army of BCs, and then watch in horror as half of there own bcs turn around and yamato the rest of there asses of... Mc has to be one of my favorite abilities, especially when playing single player, and then use the cheat for infinate energy...
Cheat for infinite energy... ? Sounds like you're playing single player. That strategy won't work in a multiplayer game at all.

[Sambo83]

i have a 30-5 record or smth like that against prod.
Really? O_O Guess I wasn't around when you got way better.

hayley, like i said, i havent played here a lot lately, but her toss was not better then my terran, from what i remember i had a winning record against her
I agree.. I just noticed that from when I used to play when she was toss she was good but not amazing. When I started playing again and she was zerg it was like W T F, but when I said she was better than you, I didn't realize how good you had gotten.

i know more about starcraft then you, its as simple as that, when we disagree about something, then i am right.
lol... false and false.. But even I were to conceed that you know more about SC than me, that doesn't mean that if we disagree you are correct by default. Have you ever disagreed with a teacher and been right? I have, and I was right probably more often than I was wrong, but that doesn't mean that the teacher doesn't know way more than I do about the subject they teach.

[Valjean]

Cheat for infinite energy... ? Sounds like you're playing single player. That strategy won't work in a multiplayer game at all.
It says, "especially when playing single player" right in the damn quote...XD

[Schwitzer]

At any rate, I don't see what relying on cheat codes is going to do to help you become better.

[Sambo83]

Wherewolf, come on bnet and watch some replays -_-

[MidnightGladius]

Exactly.

Discounting that, who the heck is massing BCs? Who the heck is letting them mass BCs? Getting an army of BCs in any map I've heard of is impossible even with 2 expos, and you should be constantly harassing in any case.

Besides, DA isn't a serious strategy. It's just a stepping stone to something even more horrifying :)

[ReD_ICE]

rolf~~~ actually, if u play REALLY REALLY long, and ur not a newbie in a multi game, it is possible to have a group of bcs...only its gonna take u at LEAST 3 expos...considering each additional expo gives 12000 (in lottem). Ofcourse, it WOULD be very hard to go to bcs, but its not impossible ;)

[Schwitzer]

I've gone BattleCruisers in a proper game before. It was a 2v2 on a huge, huge map. It was an island map so we did the traditional drops / harassment / expanding, but eventually I was producing BattleCruisers.

[Sambo83]

I've seen plenty of 1v1 games where terran gets BC. It happens a lot in TvT. You can go BC when you have 3 active gas. It's just like toss with carriers.

[MidnightGladius]

It's just that most of my games end before anyone has the capablity or want to go BCs.

[ZeroCross]

Hayley posts here.. Obviously, hayley is a girl's name.-_- Well, I have met alot of people who use different gender names or worse. *Shudders* I've seen names like "MissPikaPie" and it was a 25 year old guy. *shudders again*

lol..zerocross...wanna play with me? maybe i can teach u something about starcraft before great professor zero comes in here again to give everyone a big important lecture about a man and his pride..... anyway, host ur talk show some place else....^^" Professor Zero? wtf? Who are you even talking about? What talkshow? If that was supposed to be an insult, then DAMN, you need some serious practice.

Anyways sure, I'd like all the non-money human exp. I can get. How's Tuesday for you?

[Sambo83]

tuesday?
Why don't you just come on bnet right now, I'll play you.

[Schwitzer]

You're about four hours too late, Sambo :)

[ReD_ICE]

lol...we dont even mention non-money maps...damn...ur gonna get all the human exp. from me, dont worry.

ps. its not me who needs practice, its u who need a faster working brain...sorry if im making it too complicated for u.

[MidnightGladius]

That was blatantly insulting.






But I must agree.

[Chris_C]

How do you deal with lurkers as a terran?

[Cpt.Chronic]

How do you deal with lurkers as a terran? It depends on what part of the game you're talking about.

Early game- Send your m&m to his choke and hold position just outside of sunken range. If he sends lurkers at you with minimal ling support, stim and focus fire on one lurker and retreat after he dies, then hold position just outside of lurker range. Continue to do this so that you don't allow him a direct path to your base. If he comes with a lot of lings just in front of lurks then stim and let rines fire at the lings for a second and then retreat as the lurkers burrow. Now his lurkers won't have much ling support so next time he tries to attack, do what I mentioned before. During this time you should be teching to tanks with seige, science vessels, and have researched marine range upgrade. If he gets past (or kills) your m&m that were containing the zerg, then build a bunker and turret at your ramp (I'm assuming LT here) and put 2 medics on hold position on the ramp so that lurks just can't run into your mineral line. Also, upgrade +1 defense so that marines can withstand an extra lurker attack before dying. Spread your rines before fighting lurks so that the spines only attack 1 rine at a time instead of slaughtering your whole group.

Mid Game- Once you have science vessels and seige tanks to support your m&m things get much easier as long as you can control your m&m and not get slaughtered. Hotkeying your troops is very important here. Always hotkey your marines seperate from medics so that you can stim easily (just hit 1+t). Scan the path you will take right before you move out. As you approach the ling/hydra/lurk army of the zerg seige tanks out of range of their army and attack with m&m (not if their lurks are burrowed of course), then as the zerg sends in his army to attack you, reposition your m&m next to your seiged tanks. I also like to dmatrix tanks vs lurks if they burrow near them because the lurks will waste their shots on the dmatrixed tanks while your marines and other tanks kill them. You can also d-matrix a marine or two and send them through the lurker gauntlet while the rest of your marines come in just after the dmatrixed ones to kill the lurks as the lurk spines will be firing at the first dmatrixed ones (assuming zerg doesn't micro his lurker attacks which a lot of times they don't). This is really only useful if you have little to no tanks.

Late Game- Lurks + darkswarm is pretty much impossible to kill as terran so you must retreat out of lurk range and irradiate the defilers.

[ReD_ICE]

yes, thats the safest, most popular way. btw, spread ur marines out when u attack lurks (if u dont have tanks)

[Ahzz]

T_T Spread ur marines EVEN IF you have tanks.... vs lurkers i mean

[ReD_ICE]

well, if u have tanks, u would just back up when the lurks advance wouldnt u? (thats if there is an unbelievable amount of lurks). But then again, which dumbass player would send their freakin lurks towards a bunch of tanks + m+m?

[MidnightGladius]

A "dumbass player" would :D

Seriously though, if you have tanks, just keep M&M outside of lurker range, wait for comsats, and pound them. Of course, if they have a LOT of lurkers, then you have to do some reconsiderations.

[ZeroCross]

In late game, if your enemy gets dark-swarms lurkers, use a science vessal's Irradiate if you can land one. Siege tank fire will reduce the numbers of those lurkers quite a bit, depending on how they are positioned. If you are able to Dmatrix a pack of vultures, you might be able to get in in time to lay a few mines. You should try this in a test game before releying on it's validity.

If all else fails, then by this time you might be able to launch nukes. Even if you have no intention of landing it, it should ideally send your opponent into a hurried retreat, which will at the least buy you more time. You may want to hover valks over the area to shoo overlords. If hydras under swarm give you problems, unload a half dozen Irradiate spells.

The only thing wrong with this strat is really the fact that few people go for nukes in serious games. I don't think nuclear fire can be negated by darkswarm, anyone care to confirm?

[MidnightGladius]

As thefazant was arguing earlier somewhere, tanks cannot, repeat CAN NOT hit burrowed lurkers under swarm unless they are burrowed on top of each other, and then, only splash will do damage.

All spells can go through swarm. At least, storm, yamato, ensnare, plague, broodling, heal, restore, and optical flare do. I've never tested it out, but I believe a nuke can penetrate a big orange cloud of insects. Then again, it should kill the insects too.

Mines are somewhat pointless, as the lurkers can kill them before they enter the ground.

Also, be careful with the vessels. Zerg players tend to scourge them (literally and metaphorically). But then, you supposedly have valks, so that shouldn't be much of a problem.

Actually, nukes are usable in serious play. It's just that no one does when you can get much better things for the same price (not to mention they aren't one-use only and aren't as easy to stop [comsat and 2 scvs can kill a nuking ghost]).

[ReD_ICE]

i've tried a 3-way nuke tvp before...just hearing "Nuclear Launch Detected" 3 times felt so damn good... :P

[MidnightGladius]

Hehe I did that once in a TvP, but forgot to cloak my ghost and got it killed by 2 probes :(

[ReD_ICE]

that sucks...lol...but with 3 nukes at a time, ur enemy's gonna be pretty nervous...

[MidnightGladius]

The fun thing was that I killed him with a blanket nuke at the end (~7 cloned nukes through base). Of course, I had already killed everything worth killing; that was just a nice (cough cough cheezy) finish.

[ReD_ICE]

lol...u could wipe out an entire army, while he's trying to look for the red dot somewhere in his base...

[MidnightGladius]

But then, most people tend to listen when they hear "your army is under attack", don't they?

The map type was ashworld, so that made finding the dot that much harder.

Speaking of which, there aren't too many popularly played ashworld maps. Would it help if they made Lost Temple for ash? :D

[ReD_ICE]

there's a ash type lottemp in sclegacy, they made all these different terrain versions for lottemp...lol...btw, in case ur wondering, its www.sclegacy.com

[MidnightGladius]

...

What is this world coming to? It's like Yenku in staredit.net who made these different tileset versions of blood bath. Some of them are downright scary.

But then, this is getting REALLY off-topic. We haven't said the word "lurker" for one page now!

[ReD_ICE]

guess they're pretty important~(back on topic...lol)...

[DotHack]

Well lurkers can be usefull in early games against terran protoss and zerg if they dont bring over lords i usually build like 6 hydralisks and make lurkers leave like 2 at base enterance and send others to enemy base [fastest map possible]

[ReD_ICE]

.................................................. .................................................. ......never talk about money maps.............................................. .................................................. .........................

[Tal3nt]

Lurkers aren't absolutely nessicary, but they sure as hell make life easier. Like Nydus Canals! Okay then, let's look here. You do a Mutaling rush. You have 5 Lurkers. Plant them at the base entrance so as nothing can enter/leave the invaded base without suffering severe damage. This makes me wonder about attacking someone with 160 Lurkers...

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

160 lurkers is 320 supply... the only way you could achieve that would be if it was more then 1 person attacking with lurkers... that or by cheating

[PowderBB3D]

1 Lurker:
Cost 50/100, 2 supply (to morph) from Hydra
1 Hydra:
Cost 75/25, 1 supply

So "True" Lurker cost:
125/125, 2

x160

20,000/20,000 and 320 supply

Each mineral patch has on the order of 1500 minerals. Generally, a main has 7-8 patches (or 10,500 - 12,000 minerals) and a nat has 6-7 (or 9,000 - 10,500). Many nats don't have geysers either.

[Wehrmacht]

Lol I would have to agree that lurkers are essential for defense against many things.
The principle thing i use lurkers for backing my sunkens from massed zealots and other melee units that destroy sunken colonies soo quickly. when u have a lurker or a couple of lurkers that make 12-35 zealots disappear in a matter of seconds its just great to watch the expressions that the opponent screams when his attack force is ripped to shreads and then his base is utterly destroyed by my 150 hydras :)

[MidnightGladius]

2 lurkers cannot kill 12-35 zealots unless they're standing there doing absolutely nothing. If you're toss and see lurkers, go a containment and tech to high temp (you'll need them anyways) and observers.

[Ahzz]

yep. Protoss will always run the zealots through them. (as they always have early speed). And kill something or scout. Lurkers do not make so much damage to them afterall

[CoolPErson]

Yes I do this my P ally sends in Dts and i send in lurkers forcing enemy to use detector units. But before untis get there boom there gone. AS long as the enemy doesnt have air units ur fine.DTS Rock
Zeratul coolest hero ever

[ReD_ICE]

thats absolutely untrue...they're stupid enough to not build any cannons/obs in the first place, and how many lurkers did u have exactly that made their base "boom there gone"? unless ur opponent is a complete noob, that shouldn't have to happen at all

[GoatseS_BoxeR]

Hydra-lurk=best strat ever

[MidnightGladius]

GJ for reviving a 4-month old thread...

[Alexisonfire]

someone should make midnight an admin cuz we need someone smart enough to lock these threads when some random fucker that thinks his opinion matters goes and revives them when the topic has died

[CrankyBuddha]

sometimes lurkers are good, sometimes they arent. Its a matter of personaly preference and skill. If you can pull off a really killer lurker drop, it usually owns. If you get caught, youre left naked in the street, because all your units will be gone and your base will be undefended (assuming you went solid lurkers). I like lurkers. Thats my opinion. Yeehaw.

-CB

[L2_1989]

I don't like lurkers that much. Yeah, all burrowed units act like an early warning system for your base, but your lurkers will attack right away when they sense an enemy. And if they have a detector, you're screwed and you're lurkers are gonna go to waste.

[Ahzz]

And if they have a detector, you're screwed and you're lurkers are gonna go to waste.
Don't talk idiotic shit you don't know about please, detectors will only take away the invisiblity advantage, which can be countered with shooting the detectors, (observers... etc) which will give them the advantage again. besides, mass amount of lurkers do HUGE amounts of damage and are good even without invisiblity (splash + 20 dmg which is not bad at all). And it will force your adversary to use detectors all the time with him, or he will really suffer bad damage

[iceman331]

Lurkers are good and an extreme pain if used properly. Think about it. You r bringing in some tanks. The guy sets his lurkers outside the base. Keeps them from attacking till ur on them, and no more tanks. This forces you to keep an eye on ur troops constantly and make sure a detecor is with them at all times, not damaging in itself, but it turns your attention away from more important things. Think of it as a form of harrasing if you want to.

[MidnightGladius]

Eh, that's kind of why you scout BEFORE you attack...

[Alexisonfire]

Lurkers are good and an extreme pain if used properly. Think about it. You r bringing in some tanks. The guy sets his lurkers outside the base. Keeps them from attacking till ur on them, and no more tanks. This forces you to keep an eye on ur troops constantly and make sure a detecor is with them at all times, not damaging in itself, but it turns your attention away from more important things. Think of it as a form of harrasing if you want to.if ur talking about allied lurks/mines i believe most ladders do not allow doing these "strats" (well i know wcg doesn't not sure about the other ladder thingys but most likly they wouldn't let u)

[MidnightGladius]

I'd rather be harassing with mutalisks or drops. I really don't use lurkers all that much, and I really need to learn how to do so. :/

[Ahzz]

allied lurk is one of the most used legal ones, you know? They even do them in the big leagues withour complaints comin

[Alexisonfire]

pffft all i know is if some ass did it to me at wcg i would bitch about it cuz they say anyone who uses it would be disqualifed

[claus]

If you're zerg and you need a defence that you can move say like you need to defend an outpost for another drone to come in it is very important you use them in my eyes.

[BrotherGreen]

All the units are there for a reason, to be used. All units are usefull at some time, in some way.

[Alexisonfire]

gl finding a use for scouts

[MidnightGladius]

Actually, people playing PvZ find that it is actually better to harass with a scout and not a corsair. Reasons include ability to attack ground, faster speed, higher damage, and higher health.

Besides, you'll need them if your opponent is going muta/devie. Sairs and carriers really aren't capable of doing enough damage.

[Ahzz]

faster speed
nah, only if they have upped the scout speed, and rarely people do it just to kill a overlord or two

Besides, you'll need them if your opponent is going muta/devie. Sairs and carriers really aren't capable of doing enough damage.
heh? Carriers target at devos, not mutas, and kill them really fast that way, and mutas just need godly micro to win vs "mass" sair. to win sair/carrier you need upped hydras, devourers, just to add the purple thingy on them, and defilers. Maybe some scourges, but the do no good usually since sairs own them.

[Alexisonfire]

sair > scout for scouting pvz sair = faster speed, cheaper, less psi (who cares about 1 psi extra tho), faster to build

[MidnightGladius]

Ok, fine, so you prove to me that I suck as Protoss :/

[InfestedArchon]

Scouts are useful when fighting like... one zergling ( at half health mind you)

Seriously though...or maybe not so serious but... scouts can beat these units 1v1
SCVs
Firebats.
Medics.
Tanks.
Vultures.
Drop Ships.
Drones.
Zerglings.
overlord
ultralisks.
Guardians.
Scourge. (Im not sure on that one. 1v1 one scourge would kill himself and probably not kill the scout... im not sure on the armor and damage.)
Im not very familiar with ZERG
probe
Zealot.
Dark Templar.
Reaver.
Shuttle.
Observer.

I think thats about it....thats quite a few purposes for scouts

[Alexisonfire]

if ur trying to be funny u completly failed (have u ever tryed to kill a tank or a ultralisk with a scout? it takes about a week)

[MidnightGladius]

You....must....be....kidding...me....

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH <SEIZURE>

[Ahzz]

and ofcourse I'll just let you have the kills, and fasten them up by adding hold position on my units.
Also, since when has scout been detector?
Dark Templar

[InfestedArchon]

it takes about a week

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA damn that made me laugh really hard.
No... i was pretty much just being a smart ass if its all the same to you. And you yeah i forgot that A scout wouldnt be able to kill a DT...what an idiot. :alcoholic

[ReD_ICE]

u should've listed examples of air units that scouts can beat 1:1...lol...well, ill list them out then
Wraith (without cloak)
Mutalisk
Valkyrie
Corsair

these r the ones i can think of...scouts r great for taking out carriers and bcs too if u have a group...yes they r expensive, but they R useful sometimes...

[MidnightGladius]

Hey! You're back!

[ReD_ICE]

lol hi midnight...i've been pretty busy ever since the holidays ended...but apparently i took hold of some time during the weekend, and decided to make a visit :P

[Ahzz]

How often do you go 1:1 with almost any unit? Except like, scv vs drone (drone with good micro wins. Drones have longer range, so i like to spit on the scv, run only a little away, spit again, and the scv cannot reach my drone) You might also go 1v1 on zealot vs zealot, or dragoon vs zealot etc, but thats about it. Yeah yeah, you can make almost any 1v1 with any units, but the normal cases etc.
Besides, if I had a muta and my opponent a scout, id wait for scourges or more mutas, not waste the muta