Question of religous sorts.

[Scauthra]

My question is, why do you believe in what you believe?

The reason why I ask this is, is because a lot of religious debate is based on relgion vs religion. Some athesist saying cathlics are idiont for believieng in an unseen essence. Blah blah.

So yes, my question. Why are you a Christian? Why are you a Buddist? Why are you Agnostic/Atheist?


My answer. Because I feel good not believe that thier is a god. I feel better thinking, and believeing that we are here because we are just here. I feel good not haveing to follow under the guidelines of any sort of religion. I feel good having faith in myself, and not a god or goddess, or what not. I search myself for things instead of looking up and asking god.

Hehe. Sorry, rambled.

I'm just curious of others thoughts on the question. Not to mention, it can help most of us understand anothers perspective on things. Like "Why do they believe in the bible 100%?" Hehe.

[wraizyr]

I believe in God because of a variety of factors.As simple as I can put it, the Bible is a collection of documents, and is historically reliable.There are no objections I have heard that have not been refuted, at least within the areas of the Bible I focus on.

[GrassDragon]

I'm sure the reason I first became religious would have to do with my parents. Them bringing me to church every week when I was younger has introduced me to religion. Naturally when I was younger, I took everything everyone said to heart. Some of it has stuck with me, and some of it I have really thought over and refined my beliefs.

One of the things that really makes me believe in God is that there are so many people, walking around and doing their own thing, thinking their own things. All those minds and "souls" each doing something different, and it never gets mixed up, makes me think that someone must have organized this, even if it was only at the beginning, and he's letting it run its course now.

I'm a Christian, but not as "hardcore" as some people. I believe in salvation by grace (you don't have to buy your way into heaven, which is how some religions believe it is done; Catholocism is this way I believe) and I don't believe you can do anything to lose your spot in heaven here on Earth. Once you accept Jesus and God, you are guaranteed your spot. Why? Because as they say, Jesus died for you, so your sins are paid for (I'll stop preaching now ;)).

I just want to ramble about one more thing, then I'll stop :P People ask why you would ever want to do anything "good" then, if you can just fall back on God and you'll go to heaven anyway. The way I see it is Christians behave a certain way and preach so that others can be saved too.

That's all, I know I hate it when someone preaches to me, so I'll stop now. By the way, my denomination is First Christian Church, Disciples of Christ.

[Scauthra]

I believe in God because of a variety of factors.As simple as I can put it, the Bible is a collection of documents, and is historically reliable.There are no objections I have heard that have not been refuted, at least within the areas of the Bible I focus on.

I don't want to pick at you, or look down on your beliefs. But there are some things from the bible that are not historically reliable. But you said the areas you have looked on, so I can't pick and push at anything. But I do have to ask you this. Do you think the bible is all true, and should all it's contents be held true to the faith of all it's followers? ^_^

[Demosthene5]

But there are some things from the bible that are not historically reliable. Youre probably going to regret mentioning this to the all knowing wraizyr. :\

[Scauthra]

Youre probably going to regret mentioning this to the all knowing wraizyr. :\

I am ready for the challenge?? ^_^

[Scipio7777777]

i am a christian because i grew up one and its still with me and now that i am older christianity looks like the best religon to me and seems to be more likley than others

oh and my denomination is Southern Baptist

[TheGreatBrain]

I'm not sure why exactly it is I started believing in God again (I say 'again' because I think we all did as small children for a time, or at least I did). For a long time I was just nervous about making an actual declaration that God did or didn't exist. I guess I was sort of undecided. I would have times when I would start leaning towards atheism, and others when I leaned towards God again. For some reason, I have started believing in God again, and it has just stuck. I get some comfort from the idea, but I don't dump all my problems on God, or try and "convert" others by any means. It's just a belief.

[Black.Ice]

I was raised a Muslim, and I follow that faith because I find peace and contentment in it. That's all that matters to me, I don't want to change the world, I just want to change myself. And, IMO, Islam makes me a better person. :)

[Whiteknight]

I believe in science because it is proven. Beyond that, I hope that there is a higher power and that we go somewhere when we die, but I have no strict belief in anything as of the moment.

[Valjean]

I believe in science because it is proven. Beyond that, I hope that there is a higher power and that we go somewhere when we die, but I have no strict belief in anything as of the moment.
My answer. Because I feel good not believe that thier is a god. I feel better thinking, and believeing that we are here because we are just here. I feel good not haveing to follow under the guidelines of any sort of religion. I feel good having faith in myself, and not a god or goddess, or what not. I search myself for things instead of looking up and asking god.
Combine these 2 answers and you have my answer. ^_^

[GiaDragoness]

What do i beleive? Christianity. No, not all that "the power of christ compells you!" and "and now we will pass around the collection plate the third time, remember god is watching as you donate" or chanting hyms for hours on end or "you must be this special division of the church to be the most holiest of the saved ones!" or any other bull. I belive that Jesus christ has the power to save, so much so, that all you have to do is repent, and BAM, there it is, like a bolt of lgihtining, in som much power that normal people would never comprehend.

Why do i beleive this? In fact, i'm not to sure, but i do, because God makes me strong i pray. Let me start, I was raised in the christian way, you know, all that sunday school stuff and everything, but when some of life's real troubles, most specificly, the death of a freind of mine was the victem of gang violence in detroit, i broke down, and had two choices: To turn away from religion, and say "the hell with this, why should i have faith in someone who wont protest my freinds" (putting it lightly how i felt at the time), or i could stop sinking into pity, and try to find out why. I guess it just went on from there. I kept trying to find out, why, and learning more about God in the process. Life did'nt wanna let me down though, as the option to turn from God like before, kept repeating itself, yet i always kept going, no matter how many people just say i'm evil, and misleading other people, and no matter how many people stab me in the damn back, or how hard it fuckign hurts when another of my best friensd dies, or another dreamed i've always had is killed or whatever happens. but for some reason or another that is constantly beyond my understanding, God just seems so right to me. I have been led through so much, I can't turn back. But through all of my problems in life, i manage to find the strength to move on. Human spirit, or Divine Strength? Say what you will, i know my answer.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Cygnus]

Let's see why I believe what I do.... I guess I should tell you what I believe in first.

As some of you might know, yes I'm an atheist. I do not believe in the existence of supreme beings/ gods/ goddesses/ aliens creating the world. To me the universe, earth and us just exist. I do not need to create or believe in someone elses invisible divine creatures to give me comfort, what I find comfort in is other people and other things that actually are known to exist.

Basically now I can get into the 'why' of my belief. You and I are known to exist, even our societies, for better or worse would seem to work without divine creatures pulling the strings. I'm pretty much the other side of the coin as GrassDragon. When I look around and see hundreds of different religions, sects, or cults in existence contradicting themselves. All claiming the be the truth, some with different gods, explanations, or reasoning... who's right? You? Them? Yet you're satisfied with whatever religion you buy into this week, year or perhaps your whole lifetime. Doesn't this seem strange? To me, yes.

[Scauthra]

Cygnus... *Sniffles*... So ture... Much love!

aliens creating the world Hehe. Xel`Naga? ^_^

[TheGreatBrain]

All claiming the be the truth
The same could be said of atheists.

Not an insult, just saying.

[Scauthra]

The same could be said of atheists.

Not an insult, just saying.

Well, probly. But to me, we just appeared after matter gathered and formed and the new matter created some creatures and poof.

Make-shift explination, but it works? ^_^

[LordAhriman]

I believe in experience, because everything else is of little worth.

[GiaDragoness]

Well, probly. But to me, we just appeared after matter gathered and formed and the new matter created some creatures and poof.

Make-shift explination, but it works? ^_^
And you atheists say the idea of a divine being is crazy. Go figure :p

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Scauthra]

I believe that is more scientific then divine power : P

If i'm wrong... i'll still be an athiest ^_^

[Cygnus]

The same could be said of atheists.

Not an insult, just saying.
Point taken. But I came out of my belief of being an atheist by observing and looking at different religions. I don't know if that counts or anything. Hell it might not even justify it.

Atleast some positive chatter is getting done in here. :)

[Dark_Magneto]

Used to be a Christian once upon a time. Really started evaluating the belief structure and doing a study on scriptures, especially those that didn't make the cut into the canon because they were considered forgeries.

Well to make a long story short, after much studying and critical analysis, things didn't add up. If you think about it, it's to be expected that multiple authors from different time periods would have a hard time getting the collective story straight.

Several other theological problems presented themselves as well. Even if you assumed all of modern-day Christianity was undisputed truth, it would still leave much to be desired and leave more questions than answers.

I decided then to turn towards empiricism, parsimony, logic, and the scientific method. With these tools at my disposal, I will never get duped into some extravagant hoax or lie. Granted, I'll be the last person to believe something that's going around, but I won't be duped. I figure that it has to be proven true with substance beyond reasonable doubt before I'm going to accept it. So far everything has been going just fine. Skepticism is the way to go.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

[GiaDragoness]

Used to be a Christian once upon a time. Really started evaluating the belief structure and doing a study on scriptures, especially those that didn't make the cut into the canon because they were considered forgeries.

Well to make a long story short, after much studying and critical analysis, things didn't add up. If you think about it, it's to be expected that multiple authors from different time periods would have a hard time getting the collective story straight.

Several other theological problems presented themselves as well. Even if you assumed all of modern-day Christianity was undisputed truth, it would still leave much to be desired and leave more questions than answers.

I decided then to turn towards empiricism, parsimony, logic, and the scientific method. With these tools at my disposal, I will never get duped into some extravagant hoax or lie. Granted, I'll be the last person to believe something that's going around, but I won't be duped. I figure that it has to be proven true with substance beyond reasonable doubt before I'm going to accept it. So far everything has been going just fine. Skepticism is the way to go.

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.If that is your point, then i truely pity you. Your life ahead may hold little dissappointment, but little joys as well. I find it funny, that in an argument here at the intellectual round table, you say that you kept finding loopholes in christianity, yet you fail to point out a single one. Tell me, did you feel god let you down or some such thing, and you decided to look in the wrong places or in controlled experiments just so you could justify saying God does'nt exist? I respect your opinion that you feel some divine spirits can't exist when there is virtually no solid evidence of them, but I just can't imagine how I myself could even begin to try and explain things without God in the picture. Any enlightenments?

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Dark_Magneto]

If that is your point, then i truely pity you. Your life ahead may hold little dissappointment, but little joys as well.

Little joy how? For not believing in religions and superstitions?

You don't have to believe in otherworldly supernatural speculation to experience joy.


I find it funny, that in an argument here at the intellectual round table, you say that you kept finding loopholes in christianity, yet you fail to point out a single one.


Ok, to keep things short I'll use the third-world tribesman scenario.

There are these third world tribesman. They have lived out in the wilderness their whole lives and have never had contact with civilization. They have never seen a white man or his God. They don't even know that such people or such a belief exists. They perform ritual sacrifice, they have ancient ceremonies, and they have grown up completely secluded from the rest of the world.

What happens when these people die?

If they go to hell because they didn't know any better, then the Christian God obviously isn't anywhere near as compassionate or understaning as some people would have you think and there are scads of people roasting on a paranormal spit rack with supernatural pain receptors that God gave them as a parting gift simply because they didn't know of a certain religion and it unfortunately turned out to be true.

So what happens to these people? Do they go to hell, or heaven? If they go to hell, then rumor's about God's mercy have been greatly exaggerated.

And if they go to heaven because they were ignorant? Then it's contrary to scripture. Wouldn't it be better then if noone found out about Christianity, since the only thing the "Good News" does is gives you a ticket to hell should you reject it? Wouldn't the best thing to do would be to stop all missionaries and gospel preachers and keep as many people ignorant of Christianity as you could to ensure their salvation, reguardless of any consequences to your own?

What they don't know can't hurt them, right?


Tell me, did you feel god let you down or some such thing, and you decided to look in the wrong places or in controlled experiments just so you could justify saying God does'nt exist?


I don't feel that God let me down, I feel that there was nothing there to let me down to begin with. If the Christian God does exist, then yeah, all it did was let me down, but I have no valid reason to consider it real. It's like, when Christians got thrown to the Lions in the Roman coliseum, The Romans taunted the Christians telling them to ask their God to save them. "Where is your mighty God now, Christian?". Sure enough, God never showed up and the Christians got ate by the lions each time.

Pretty shitty to let your people get eaten by lions for years on end and just sit idly by and watch while it happens.

But that's the thing. Why believe in an impotent God that can't or refuses to do anything for it's subjects? You can pray all you want, but if the situation is hopeless, then nothing is going to change it.

You never see anything that would directly prove the existence of God, like Vietnam veterans instantly regenerating limbs in a faith healing session or something equally grandiose that would dispel all doubts.

Ultimately, you have to ask yourself this question:

Suppose their is a universe identical to this one in every single fine detail... with one exception. There are absolutely no Gods in this universe and it runs on naturalistic if not completely understood principles and has been since the beginning.

How do you tell the difference between that universe, and this one? How do you know that you aren't living in the universe with no Gods/Godesses/Deities?

What would be the criteria for falsification of the proposition that there is a God? In other words, if there wasn't a God how could one show that?

Well formed, objective statements about reality, usually have some criteria of falsification. If the statement "There is a God." doesn't have any criteria for falsification, then there are reasons to think that the statement is not a well-formed, objective statement about reality.

I will expand a bit on my above point.

What I'm asking is this. What would it take to prove that there was no God?

"If you can show "_______", then that would be evidence against their being a God."

If you can't fill in that blank with some criteria, then the statement that there is a God seems to be without content since no matter what the evidence was you would still believe in a God.


I respect your opinion that you feel some divine spirits can't exist when there is virtually no solid evidence of them, but I just can't imagine how I myself could even begin to try and explain things without God in the picture. Any enlightenments?


God isn't a valid explanation for anything. It doesn't explain anything anymore than invoking invisible pink unicorns. It's just a problem substitution. It just takes one unknown (Life, the universe, and everything) and attributes it to an even greater unknown (Supernatural entities), thus failing to solve the original problem of where anything came from, and just kicks the whole step back a notch. It's a thought-terminating cliché. People say that God created the universe and God has always existed. I say you could just trim the fat and skip a step entirely.

http://home.earthlink.net/~darkmagneto/orazor.gif

[Scauthra]

*Drags Cygnus over and forces him to sit behind everything Dark Magneto just said.*

If I were smarter, more knowledgable, and could express thought in a coherent manner, I would say something along the lines as he. *Always liked how Dark Magneto went about saying what he does*

.. I also go along with Penn and Teller ^^;

[Valjean]

Pretty shitty to let your people get eaten by lions for years on end and just sit idly by and watch while it happens.
Pretty shitty what god did to Job. If God exists, which I do not believe anyway, but if he does, he could have just have gotten tired of people praying for them. This way, it's a test of faith; which is still kinda shitty. I let you get eaten by a lion, you doubted my existance at the last seconds of your life, you go to hell.

[Dark_Magneto]

.. I also go along with Penn and Teller ^^;

Penn and Teller rock.

Pretty shitty what god did to Job. If God exists, which I do not believe anyway, but if he does, he could have just have gotten tired of people praying for them. This way, it's a test of faith; which is still kinda shitty. I let you get eaten by a lion, you doubted my existance at the last seconds of your life, you go to hell.

Yeah, that Job situation was pretty fucked up too. He makes a bar bet with Stan and lets him torture this guy to within an inch of his life and kill his family off just to make a point. It's so bad, Job is all cursing his own existence/wishing he had never been born. So afterwards, God and Stan are engaging in some post-bet analysis for a few years, and during this time Job is doing much better off. He has prospered 10 times beyond what he originally had (Material wise that is. His family didn't magically get resurrected or anything.). Well God and Stan finish up their conversation, and then God notices ol' Job, doing better than ever.

"Oh! Almost forgot...!", and God kills Job. I guess Job outlived his usefulness. Reminds me of that scene in Demolition Man where Westley Snipes grabs an MP5 and says "Thank you gentlemen, but your services will no longer be required!" and rakes the crowd of scientists at the cryo-prison with hot lead. Kind of like doing a double-take right before you leave a room because you forgot to get the light.

[Warp_Factor]

I don't believe in the supernatural (God included), because after being a christian (catholic) and documenting myself about other religions, I came to the conclusion that I was better off without them.

[wraizyr]

Youre probably going to regret mentioning this to the all knowing wraizyr. :\Oh yeah?Well,you hate hate!Hah, self-contradiction, I am vindicated!
In seriousness, John plainly stated that he was talking about Satan, you have to read the entire paragraph.
you doubted my existance at the last seconds of your life, you go to hell.
Nope.Wrong.Incorrect.The charge is falsely made.
"and now we will pass around the collection plate the third time, remember god is watching as you donate"
RO-teh-FL



Ok, to keep things short I'll use the third-world tribesman scenario.

There are these third world tribesman. They have lived out in the wilderness their whole lives and have never had contact with civilization. They have never seen a white man or his God. They don't even know that such people or such a belief exists. They perform ritual sacrifice, they have ancient ceremonies, and they have grown up completely secluded from the rest of the world.

What happens when these people die?
They can come to a knowledge of God via General Revelation, and they can go to heaven.Heaven isn't going to be based on a theological test, it's about repentance before God."White man" has nothing to do with God.

So what happens to these people? Do they go to hell, or heaven? If they go to hell, then rumor's about God's mercy have been greatly exaggerated.
Also, I believe there are degrees or levels of hell, based on one's life.Meaning that someone who has the Gospel preached daily will be in a worse state of hell than someone who only heard it once.I think.

Pretty shitty to let your people get eaten by lions for years on end and just sit idly by and watch while it happens.And what makes you think God was sitting idly by?(You would kind of expect an omniscient being to do things slightly differently than you or I.)

But that's the thing. Why believe in an impotent God that can't or refuses to do anything for it's subjects?By definition God isn't impotent.And God has done and continues to do plenty.This is more or less argument by outrage.

[Dark_Magneto]

They can come to a knowledge of God via General Revelation, and they can go to heaven. Heaven isn't going to be based on a theological test, it's about repentance before God."White man" has nothing to do with God.


How the hell does is this a solution? The whole scenario goes on the basis that he has never heard of this god, and still performs acts that would be considered ungodly. What are the chances that he would really come to this relevation? This has got to be the most contrived, ad-hoc response I have encountered when it comes to the third-world tribesman scenario. Hell, you might as well just come out and say the guy is doomed to damnation instead of wasting time by presenting something the man isn't aware of, much less won't accomplish worshipping his heathen pantheon of elemental gods.

Kind of hard to repent to a god you don't know of about for things you have done that you don't have any reason to consider wrong.


Also, I believe there are degrees or levels of hell, based on one's life. Meaning that someone who has the Gospel preached daily will be in a worse state of hell than someone who only heard it once.I think.


All the more reason to keep them in the dark then. Like I've said before, knowledge of Christianity is just a grand indictment on your beliefs and little else. It's like handing someone a dead-man's detonator. As soon as they take hold of it (learn about Christianity), it activates. If they ever release it (fail to convert), it blows up in their face.

Better to never pick it up than have to spend the rest of your life holding on to something strictly due to the consequence of letting go.


And what makes you think God was sitting idly by?(You would kind of expect an omniscient being to do things slightly differently than you or I.)


Thousands of dead Christians and no god later tends to paint a pretty clear picture. Whatever he was attempting, if anything, obviously wasn't working.


By definition God isn't impotent.And God has done and continues to do plenty.This is more or less argument by outrage.

Name 3 things... 3 demonstratable things... that your god actively does.

I'm having a hard time thinking of 1 that any god does.

Hell, come to think of it, I'm having a problem remembering the last time a supernatural entity was even shown to exist, much less take decisive action.

[GiaDragoness]

Allow me to educate you then.
How the hell does is this a solution? The whole scenario goes on the basis that he has never heard of this god, and still performs acts that would be considered ungodly. What are the chances that he would really come to this relevation? This has got to be the most contrived, ad-hoc response I have encountered when it comes to the third-world tribesman scenario. Hell, you might as well just come out and say the guy is doomed to damnation instead of wasting time by presenting something the man isn't aware of, much less won't accomplish worshipping his heathen pantheon of elemental gods. Then think about it. Why are they not offered the choice to convert, and, if they did have than chance, would they? You seem to forget one very important thing, and not know another. First is, even if people have the chance, they will be like you, mock God to his face, and kill his messengers or whatnot. I think god would be wise enough to know who would reject him, and who would accept him, if he really is the all powerfull ruler of the universe dont you think?
Second thing, which you may not know: It may not be your choice. Remember, consequences of people's own free will are far more reaching than you could think possible. While God is loving and forgiving, sometimes the consequences or one's actions may extend damnation down to further generations as well. How would you like to be responsible for damning the souls of a dozen people you talk to at least? Not very pleasent i would imagine. How do you think children raised in an atheistic family feel? They are raised to belive jesus is nothign more than a madman. How is it their fault they get condemned in the end? it is'nt, it was the fault of those before them. While God may constantly be extending mercy to people, he can only extend it so far. So just remember what you say or do for it just may affect someone else worse than you could imagine.

Kind of hard to repent to a god you don't know of about for things you have done that you don't have any reason to consider wrong.God asks his children to obey. If you knew say, only three of the ten comandments, and followed them very closly, then you would be obeying. If you knew all ten, but only obeyed 9 of them, you would be disobeying. So then, why should you try to learn more? Because: If you are faithfull with little, and risk little, you gain little as well. Sure, you get into heaven, but think how much God would exalt someone who took a low risk life, then on the other hand, someone who tried to learn as much as he/she could about god, and obeyed all of it because they were'nt afraid to sacrifice things on earth for God's purpose?

All the more reason to keep them in the dark then. Like I've said before, knowledge of Christianity is just a grand indictment on your beliefs and little else. It's like handing someone a dead-man's detonator. As soon as they take hold of it (learn about Christianity), it activates. If they ever release it (fail to convert), it blows up in their face.
Better to never pick it up than have to spend the rest of your life holding on to something strictly due to the consequence of letting go. First of all, see above. Second, are we afraid to take the chance? How far do you want to go? It's a matter of faith. How much are you willing to risk? Third, We already stand damned because of sin. Jesus does'nt damn you because you dont take his ticket he just made up, Humanity was already damned because of the outcast from the garden of eden. Jesus is just a really cool ticket back in to God's house. It's not that difficult of a concept.

Thousands of dead Christians and no god later tends to paint a pretty clear picture. Whatever he was attempting, if anything, obviously wasn't working. If you look at death as the worst possible scenario, then yes. However, death is not the worst scenario, and for a christian, the end of this life is the begining of a new one. Think about those people: Those who are so devoted as to surrender their lives, would be given greater rewards in their next. Secondly, if God ever did some great and drastic move, than that would make it REAL easy to figure out what to beleive in, which would completely invalidate the reason of faith and beleiveing. How hard is it to beleive in something if the evidence is litteraly smacking you right in the face? Should an eternal paradise be that easy to get into? How would God seperate those who were really sincere about following him from those who were just on for the free ride? You've seen how ignorant people can be, what makes you think that even if God did some miraculous sign, the romans would not have taken it as a sign of their gods? If you have bothered to read the bible, you will read that God did show tons of miracles awhile ago, and that did'nt stop people from turning away because they just took it for granted, and still beleived whatever the hell they wanted to beleive in.


Name 3 things... 3 demonstratable things... that your god actively does.
I'm having a hard time thinking of 1 that any god does.
Hell, come to think of it, I'm having a problem remembering the last time a supernatural entity was even shown to exist, much less take decisive action.Well well, i was wondering when this was going to come into play. Question to you first, do i have any insurance that you wont try and pull some bs like "god does'nt do that, there is a logical explaination behind it, we just hav'nt found it yet.", or "That was just sheer luck." or some such? Probably not, but i'll list off a few things from the top of my head anyways.

1:> September 11th for one. Even though our government knew damn well, that terrorists had attacked it before, and showed intention of attacking again, G W Bush went on vacation and ignored it. The towers were destroyed just an hour or so before they would have opened, making the casualties possibly ten times as high, many of the people missed the flights that crashed into the towers. Quite some mercy for someone who clearly took no precaution against this attack whatsoever, and rightfully should have had ten times as many people dead.

2:> Out of tens of thousands of planets that we even know of, one, and only this one, can support human life, and actually does a nice job of it, with the exception that we keep polluting the damn planet making it less habitable.

3:> Humans are an extremely destrutive creature. It is deep inside our nature that we cannot escape. We have the means to destroy every living thing on this planet ten times over at least, yet, even in times such as the cold war, humanity still thrives, and manages to find the restraint to keep that power holstered, even though we can't manage to keep our tempers intact at someone on the other end of the internet/phone/counter and often wish nothing more than to just go on shooting or killing sprees whenever we feel like. (and don't tell me you've never felt anything like this :P )

4:> We've had George W. Bush for our president for four years and the world has'nt exploded with whipped cream everywhere. (lol, a bit of a joke, but still, you can't ignore the fact that he's been one of the worst presidents in history at the hieght of world technology as it is.)

5:> France, a country that had never won a single war in it's long sad history, was led to victory in it's hour of need to defend itself, by a 17 year old girl who claimed she was led by God.

6:> USA was the first country to develop nukes, as opposed to a country led by the axis powers. Can you imagine what the world would be like if the axis powers had discovered nuclear weapons first?

7:> When japan bombed pearl harbor, they ignored a bunch of fueling towers, that they deemed as not enough of a striking blow, when in fact, if those towers had been bombed, USA would not have been able to do nearly a damn thing in WW2, which, would of course change the world as we know it.

8:> Define, every miracle that has ever happened. And no cheap cop-out answers either.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Scauthra]

How do you think children raised in an atheistic family feel? They are raised to belive jesus is nothign more than a madman
I'm sorry, a madman? What the ****?....

I'm an athiest but that is the first time I have ever heard that statment. No other athiest I know has said. "That hippy idiot Jesus was such a madman. Haha. He fooled so many people with his raveings." And how do those children feel? The feel normal, I would guess. If you are raised as a buddhist in a country full of christaisn and such, you would feel, normal. Let's say one of every child in 20 households is raised in a buddhist family, to them, despite hearing all the christian speak, still follow thier parents guide. Wouldint that be the same with an Athiest child?

Really, what it comes down to is what YOU feel better believeing in. If you feel good believeing there is a god out there, somewhere, watching over you and waiting for you to come to his domain then all the power to you and yours. If you feel better believieng there is no god and end wll of your life will be either null or unexpected, all the power to you, and yours.

What I am basically trying to say is, just becuase a child is raised in an athiest family doesint mean they are being left out of anything. Rather you refer to it as true, fact, myth, or just plain,

Bullshit!
Oh and.

7:> When japan bombed pearl harbor, they ignored a bunch of fueling towers, that they deemed as not enough of a striking blow, when in fact, if those towers had been bombed, USA would not have been able to do nearly a damn thing in WW2, which, would of course change the world as we know it.
I will pick at this one, in praticular.


God: Hey, you, Japanese. Don't worry about attacking those towers. Your attack will be plenty enough to take care of those Americans.

Japanese: Hai hai!

*Later*

Japanese: ;-;

Americans: Haha, bastards.

God: Haha, that was sooooo goood! I love freaking with the mind's of my toys.

^_^

[Draix]

1:> September 11th for one. Even though our government knew damn well, that terrorists had attacked it before, and showed intention of attacking again, G W Bush went on vacation and ignored it. The towers were destroyed just an hour or so before they would have opened, making the casualties possibly ten times as high, many of the people missed the flights that crashed into the towers. Quite some mercy for someone who clearly took no precaution against this attack whatsoever, and rightfully should have had ten times as many people dead.]
That's a tad odd if you ask me. Why did god save them? IM sure a lot Christians were killed in the WTC's maybe more devoted then those people who missed there flight. I just see it as odd, shouldn't he of stopped the suicide bombers? Isn't suicide wrong? Oh wait they were "sacrificing" themselves for there god. Well, doesn't god say no in believing in other gods?


Or maybe this life is just a test to see if we have faith in god? I find it hard to believe in an entity that has never helped me or my family. He must be a sadistic bastard.


I was once a Christian. All my family still is, I prayed every night went to church gave to people in need the works. But when I needed god I got nothing not even a good feeling. Ill believe in god when he does something that is easy to point out.

But I do respect Christians, they make more sense. And IM not an atheist I just have my own personal religion.

[GiaDragoness]

That's a tad odd if you ask me. Why did god save them? IM sure a lot Christians were killed in the WTC's maybe more devoted then those people who missed there flight. I just see it as odd, shouldn't he of stopped the suicide bombers? Isn't suicide wrong? Oh wait they were "sacrificing" themselves for there god. Well, doesn't god say no in believing in other gods? perhaps you have'nt been paying attention when you post at the "does god exist?" thread. Free will allows us to do whatever we want, we have to face the consequences, but we still are allowed to choose our path.

Or maybe this life is just a test to see if we have faith in god? I find it hard to believe in an entity that has never helped me or my family. He must be a sadistic bastard. I find it very hard to beleive he has NEVER helped your family. First of all, you live in america (I am assuming) so if you are indeed, you should be thankfull for that, at least that you live in a country that allows you enough luxury to spend time on the internet, which is more than a lot people have. I'm sure God has given gifts to you and your family in PLENTEY of ways you often take for granted. The only reason you may not see them is because you look for gifts from god with a big glowing wrap with a label on it singed "from God". A bit exagurated, but you get the point. The phrase "god works in mysterious ways" was'nt applied because it sounded cool, The Lord chooses often times to wokr through us humans to do his will, and sometimes he likes to do the most ironic thing possible. Why? Maybe that's his idea of a sense of humor, maybe it's just him telling us to lgihten up, i dunno. I would say though, that if you look around and can't see God's work in progress, you're lucky it's not a venomous snake looking for a meal. lol

I was once a Christian. All my family still is, I prayed every night went to church gave to people in need the works. But when I needed god I got nothing not even a good feeling. Ill believe in god when he does something that is easy to point out. Mmmhmm, mmhmm, mmhmm. I see good neighbor. The old "fallen angel" testimony. First of all, Christianity is not always going to be all good feelings and sunshine, there are times you will feel absolutly pushed 110% pushed past all your limits. It's often that point when your about to give up, that things are about to turn up. You have to always look up, and you can't just get into the mood of "skrew it, it's too hard, and i'm tired. I don't care if the answer just presented itself, it's too late, i dontn care anymore." Trust me, i've been there. Hell, I go there probably twice a month. It's not whether you fall down, but if you choose to get back up. And to your last sentance, I beleive God did say "don't temp me" or something along those lines. In case you don't know if he meant it, trust me from personall experience, HE MEANS IT.


But I do respect Christians, they make more sense. And IM not an atheist I just have my own personal religion. Join the crew. Making a new religion, or a new division of a religion is about as easy as going into a dunken donuts and ordering a dozen donuts.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Dark_Magneto]

Then think about it. Why are they not offered the choice to convert, and, if they did have than chance, would they?

Probably not. Out of all the people in the world that have been confronted with the Christian doctrine, most have chose not to convert to Christianity.

I think god would be wise enough to know who would reject him, and who would accept him, if he really is the all powerfull ruler of the universe dont you think?

Well if that's the case, then why bother with this whole "life on earth" psychodrma?

He already knows what everyone is going to do before they even had a chance to decide for themselves what it was going to be, so we're all stick fulfilling his omnicience either way.

Why doesn't he just get right down to it and create everyone in their prospective final destination of heaven or hell?

Fresh souls, hot off the press, delivered straight into the furnace of wrath. They're going there anyway, right? Why not just save a step?

Or better yet, do the compassionate thing and just simply not create those people you know won't make the cut for some reason or another.


Second thing, which you may not know: It may not be your choice. Remember, consequences of people's own free will are far more reaching than you could think possible. While God is loving and forgiving, sometimes the consequences or one's actions may extend damnation down to further generations as well.

That's a crock excuse for the concept of original sin. Humans don't have the desire nor capacity to create death, destruction, and calamity in a world where such things are impossible and don't exist.

How would you like to be responsible for damning the souls of a dozen people you talk to at least? Not very pleasent i would imagine.

Yeah, that's under the Christian ruleset though.

When you join an organization, you are expected to follow its rules and regulations. These same rules, however, are totally meaningless to someone who is not a member. For instance, let's say you joined Group A. According to Group A's handbook, you are required to wear a jacket and tie to all of its functions. Naturally, they would be well within their right to expect this of you. But what if you weren't a member, and had no ties to Group A? Would you still be expected to wear a jacket and tie just because they do? The answer, of course, is "no". Organized religion, for all intents and purposes, is a type of organization. It's a group of people joined together for a particular purpose. In the case of Christianity, this purpose is to worship the Christian god.

Christianity has a handbook which it calls the Bible. Christians, as members of this religion, are expected to obey the rules contained within it. If a member disobeys one of these rules, it's called a sin. This, of course, is all common knowledge. But, what if you're not a Christian? What if you're Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, Buddhist, Atheist, etc? Do their rules also apply to you? The answer, again, is "no".

This is where the Christian asserts that it isn't their rules, but God's rules. Since this "God" has never been found outside the pages of their rulebook, it's merely a matter of semantics. Christians don't follow the laws of other religions, and no one expects them to. What some fail to realize is that it goes both ways. If Christians aren't subject to the laws of other religions, then they can't expect those outside their religion to be subject to theirs. This is why a non-Christian simply cannot commit a Christian sin.


How do you think children raised in an atheistic family feel? They are raised to belive jesus is nothign more than a madman. How is it their fault they get condemned in the end? it is'nt, it was the fault of those before them. While God may constantly be extending mercy to people, he can only extend it so far. So just remember what you say or do for it just may affect someone else worse than you could imagine.


Condemning an entire group of people for the actions of someone else is a total miscarriage of any sane definition of justice. That would be like sentencing you to death row over something your friend's cousin's great grandfather's son-in-law did.

Totally unfair. Totally unjust.


God asks his children to obey. If you knew say, only three of the ten comandments, and followed them very closly, then you would be obeying. If you knew all ten, but only obeyed 9 of them, you would be disobeying. So then, why should you try to learn more? Because: If you are faithfull with little, and risk little, you gain little as well. Sure, you get into heaven, but think how much God would exalt someone who took a low risk life, then on the other hand, someone who tried to learn as much as he/she could about god, and obeyed all of it because they were'nt afraid to sacrifice things on earth for God's purpose?


The Christian ruleset is like a game. As the old saying goes 'A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing'. Such seems to be the case with Christian doctrine. The less you know about it, it seems, the less you are obligated to it and the better off you are. Christianity is only a beneficial knowledge (once again, assuming Christianity is correct) to those that follow it.

To those that know about it and choose not to follow it, it's an obligation. If people are judged on their individual merits if they are ignorant of Christianity, then I say let them be ignorant. For a judge of character and content is a fair and balanced method, and a judge on what religion you believed to be most likely despite none of them being more true than the next is completely biased (depending on what religion you are arguing for). Content of character is universal and knows no prejudice.


First of all, see above. Second, are we afraid to take the chance? How far do you want to go? It's a matter of faith. How much are you willing to risk? Third, We already stand damned because of sin. Jesus does'nt damn you because you dont take his ticket he just made up, Humanity was already damned because of the outcast from the garden of eden. Jesus is just a really cool ticket back in to God's house. It's not that difficult of a concept.


It doesn't make sense though. Why would God have to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy his own sanguinary bloodthirst for sin that he invented over the rules he developed?

Jesus comes down and gets his ass whooped and sacrificed, and for what? God could just as easily say 'Be excellent to each other and in your deeds, and you're in'. He could have chose any means as a solution to his self-imposed problem, and he chose violence.

I think this really speaks volumes about this biblical Christian god character.


If you look at death as the worst possible scenario, then yes. However, death is not the worst scenario,

Yeah, death isn't so bad. It's the transition that's the kicker.


and for a christian, the end of this life is the begining of a new one.


That's what the Bible says. Believe and you will have eternal life. You will still die, have a funeral, get put in the ground, and rot like evryone else; but you'll still be alive. Trust us.


Think about those people: Those who are so devoted as to surrender their lives, would be given greater rewards in their next.


That, of course, assumes that there is a next.

What if (I know many people find this possibility disheartening, nigh unthinkable even), but what if this was the only life that you get?

Well then all their sacrifice and surrendering of their life was in vain. That's one hell of a cost.

As for me? I realized that it was not worth sacrificing this life for any promises or IOU's of another one afterward. I take every day one moment at a time; every existence, one life at a time.

Yes, I have developed a skeptical, cynical, and pragmatic approach to things, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's great. I don't fall for scams, cults, or religions. Don't get ripped off, hoaxed, or deceived. I am easily able to see through other's lies and tell when they are making them up. Very useful asset.

I'm just skeptical and unconvinced about any bizarre claim until something of substance can come along and convince me otherwise.

If the skies opened up and God/Gods/Godesses descended, then yeah, I would believe in them. Hell, everyone would. You'd be a damn fool not to.

That does not mean that I would approve of his/her/their methods or think that he/they were beyond reproach though. Although it would be better to get the story first hand from the source rather than what men with agendas have been trying to sell to people for centuries.


Secondly, if God ever did some great and drastic move, than that would make it REAL easy to figure out what to beleive in, which would completely invalidate the reason of faith and beleiveing. How hard is it to beleive in something if the evidence is litteraly smacking you right in the face?


So lemme see if I get this straight. If you know for an undisputable fact that God does, in fact exist, then there's no reason to believe in him; but if you don't have conclusive proof and have to rely on speculation and whild guesses then that's a valid reason?

Talk about the antithesis of reasoning. It should be the exact opposite. The only reason you should believe in some radical claim is if it is well founded, proven, documented, and firmly established. The inverse being good reasons not to believe.

It would seem then that ignorance is god's greatest ally. God exists not because of any proof of it's own, but merely due to the inability to disprove it.

Reminds me of an old quote:

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful the Babel fish (a fish you put in your ear that lets you understand any language) could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


Should an eternal paradise be that easy to get into? How would God seperate those who were really sincere about following him from those who were just on for the free ride?


By judging them by some indiscriminatory uniform standard, like how much more positive things one did than negative. If one left the world in a better condition than they came, etc.

I don't see how you can fault someone for picking a nonchristian religion and being honestly mistaken about it. It's not like they knew Christianity was the right religion. The inverse also applies. If Islam or what have you is correct, you can't blame all non-Islamic people for not knowing it. It's not like there was any clear indicator which religion, if any, was correct.

If all faiths are taken with equal merit, the wrong path is no more man's fault than it is God's.


You've seen how ignorant people can be, what makes you think that even if God did some miraculous sign, the romans would not have taken it as a sign of their gods?

Make it unambiguously clear. Spell it out for them if you have to. This is God we're supposed to be talking about here. If he can spawn an entire reality, then making his subjects understand should be trivial by comparison.


If you have bothered to read the bible, you will read that God did show tons of miracles awhile ago, and that did'nt stop people from turning away because they just took it for granted, and still beleived whatever the hell they wanted to beleive in.


Yeah, we all know how that works. Say a bunch of supercalifragilistic sttuff happened in the past, give an excuse for it to not happen anymore, and try to sell the angle based on that.

The Koran says that their prophet Muhammad split the moon in half and magically put it back together with no cracks, thus sealing any evidence of the event ever taking place and requiring faith to believe. Hardly what I would call convincing.

But that's why religions depend on articles of faith. They can't show you anything that proves their case, because nothing like that exists, and if they were selling a false product, one would expect that. That's why they have to play on your emotions and invoke 'faith'.

Faith isn't useful or desirable in determining whether something is true or not. Anyone can have faith in anything. Faith is just a blank check to believe in any nonsense you can convince yourself of.

If you're right then you're right and faith won't make you any more correct. If you're wrong, then all the faith in the world can't change that, and the only thing faith does is makes it harder for you to accept that fact. This is why I find faith to be a sham, and unsuprisingly, why all major religions universally bank on faith.


Well well, i was wondering when this was going to come into play. Question to you first, do i have any insurance that you wont try and pull some bs like "god does'nt do that, there is a logical explaination behind it, we just hav'nt found it yet.", or "That was just sheer luck." or some such? Probably not, but i'll list off a few things from the top of my head anyways.


Why would I? You can't just discount logical explanations. If you do that then you'll develop a very strong if nigh unshakable confirmation bias (http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html).


1:> September 11th for one. Even though our government knew damn well, that terrorists had attacked it before, and showed intention of attacking again, G W Bush went on vacation and ignored it. The towers were destroyed just an hour or so before they would have opened, making the casualties possibly ten times as high, many of the people missed the flights that crashed into the towers. Quite some mercy for someone who clearly took no precaution against this attack whatsoever, and rightfully should have had ten times as many people dead.


If god had a hand in it, we would expect something like the terrorists to be thwarted completely by divine sources or the relevant intelligence agencies to have information magically delivered to them that stopped the attacks. We find that no such thing has happened.

This one right here is a classic. It's called "Argument from Incomplete Devastation":

Argument from Incomplete Devastation

(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Complete logical disconnect between the premise and conclusion.


2:> Out of tens of thousands of planets that we even know of, one, and only this one, can support human life, and actually does a nice job of it, with the exception that we keep polluting the damn planet making it less habitable.


It's the process of life adapting to it's environment, not an environment built specifically for life. Plenty of aspects of earth are much less than accomodating, but life adapts and finds a way. There's no telling how life would have turned out if Earth's conditions would have been different, or if life could have even been formed at all. Life is not exclusive to Earth either, just advanced life. We still find simple life such as bacteria in rock samples from Mars and the moon, and the moon has ice on it, which indicates that it may have had an atmosphere capable of supporting higher life forms a long time ago.

We can't say that no other advanced life exists in the rest of the universe, because we haven't been able to explore even a good fraction of it. It might be out there, might not. Hell, 90% of the universe is dark matter, which we aren't even close to figuring out. There's too little information to make a statement either way.


3:> Humans are an extremely destrutive creature. It is deep inside our nature that we cannot escape. We have the means to destroy every living thing on this planet ten times over at least, yet, even in times such as the cold war, humanity still thrives, and manages to find the restraint to keep that power holstered, even though we can't manage to keep our tempers intact at someone on the other end of the internet/phone/counter and often wish nothing more than to just go on shooting or killing sprees whenever we feel like. (and don't tell me you've never felt anything like this :P )


True, we do have nuclear weapons, but we also have common sense as well. There are no winners in nuclear war. Like the computer in the movie "War Games" said, "The only way to win is not to play". It's in everyone's best interest that we not wipe each other off the face of the planet, so we show restraint. We are the glue that binds society and upholds order. Should that binding dissolve, everything goes to hell in a handbasket. It's happened before, it's just that multiple countries back then didn't have the capacity to obliterate each other in 20 minutes.


4:> We've had George W. Bush for our president for four years and the world has'nt exploded with whipped cream everywhere. (lol, a bit of a joke, but still, you can't ignore the fact that he's been one of the worst presidents in history at the hieght of world technology as it is.)


Don't count your chickens just yet. He hasn't sunk the ship, but it sure is getting leaky. And if he gets reelected, 4 more years of the same thing just might be the nail in the coffin.

He's got a reverse Midas touch. Everything he touches turns to shit.


5:> France, a country that had never won a single war in it's long sad history, was led to victory in it's hour of need to defend itself, by a 17 year old girl who claimed she was led by God.


And who was subsequently burned alive at the stake (A special type of burning so you don't have the luxury of passing out from smoke inhalation).

When she tried to call up god on the hotline, she got an answering machine.


6:> USA was the first country to develop nukes, as opposed to a country led by the axis powers. Can you imagine what the world would be like if the axis powers had discovered nuclear weapons first?


Yeah, we would all be speaking German and they would have wrote the history about how the noble Germans valiantly defeated the invading imperialist American scum.


7:> When japan bombed pearl harbor, they ignored a bunch of fueling towers, that they deemed as not enough of a striking blow, when in fact, if those towers had been bombed, USA would not have been able to do nearly a damn thing in WW2, which, would of course change the world as we know it.


A bad tactical decision costs them the war. It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.


8:> Define, every miracle that has ever happened. And no cheap cop-out answers either.


It all depends on the situation. Many professed 'miracles' have been revealed as hoaxes or have valid scientific explanations behind them, others were complete fabrications and never happened to begin with, etc.

What remains to be seen is a valid miracle. Like the aforementioned limbless war veterans going into church as a torso with nubs and walking out with brand new arms and legs.

It doesn't happen. Why? Because it can't be hoaxed. Anyone can go up there on the 700 club or a Benny Hinn special and pretend to be blind, paralyzed, or some other internal condition that can be faked and then be 'magically healed', but you'll never see anyone regenerate missing limbs or spontaneously reform a missing fully functional 20/20 vision eyeball from an empty socket .


:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

That's my donut!

Damn Zerglings.

[Draix]

perhaps you haven't been paying attention when you post at the "does god exist?" thread. Free will allows us to do whatever we want, we have to face the consequences, but we still are allowed to choose our path.I see, I would think that he/she (funny that god is assumed to be a man) gave us free will too see if we are "worthy" of such a gift. I think we have proven time and time again that we are indeed not worthy. I would think god would see us "unfit" for such a gift and end are endless cycle of self destruction.

I find it very hard to believe he has NEVER helped your family. First of all, you live in americaAmerica is by far the best place my dear. Don't get me wrong I love the U. S, but we have a fair amount of corruption and a heavy amount of capitalism, we have also done many inhumane things.

I'm sure God has given gifts to you and your family in PLENTEY of ways you often take for granted. The only reason you may not see them is because you look for gifts from god with a big glowing wrap with a label on it singed "from God".Well, shouldn't it be very noticeable? Well, perhaps not because after all "god works in mysterious ways," I find that funny, he wants us to believe in him/her yet he does things that we cannot see. Perhaps we are to ignorant to see it? Well, in that case I would think that he would "enlighten us" so we don't take what we have for granted.


The Lord chooses often times to work through us humans to do his will, and sometimes he likes to do the most ironic thing possible.Fate is not without a sense of irony I suppose.


Mmmhmm, mmhmm, mmhmm. I see good neighbor. The old "fallen angel" testimony.ANGEL, HA don't make me laugh, I am far from ever being an angel. I just believe in helping my fellow man, or our only religious people aloud to do that?

First of all, Christianity is not always going to be all good feelings and sunshine, there are times you will feel absolutly pushed 110% pushed past all your limits.I would think that the "true" religion would come with some sort of "godly consequence" if not then how are we to know that it is the right religion? Hell their are so godamn many of them.

Trust me, i've been there. Hell, I go there probably twice a month.HA, indeed good form.

Join the crew. Making a new religion, or a new division of a religion is about as easy as going into a dunken donuts and ordering a dozen donuts.I don't think you should discourage it. Whats wrong with one's own personal religion? I guess only the big ones count eh? Also we don't have anymore Dunken donuts around here anymore :(

6:> USA was the first country to develop nukes, as opposed to a country led by the axis powers. Can you imagine what the world would be like if the axis powers had discovered nuclear weapons first?Oh I see, so it was gods will for us to have the nuke and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people in Japan? Why the double standard? Is it fair that all those people died as a result of what their government did? I thought god loved all his children? If god truly did exists why would he allow for such a terrible weapon to be created? Think about it.

[wraizyr]

If god truly did exists why would he allow for such a terrible weapon to be created?
Because he wants more than puppets.

[RelinaIonna]

6:> USA was the first country to develop nukes, as opposed to a country led by the axis powers. America got the nukes first because it conquered Berlin. Germany was ahead in the race for the atomic bomb. German Scientists had the choice of working for the Americans and Capitalism or the Russians and Communism. A choice between greed and suffering.Can you imagine what the world would be like if the axis powers had discovered nuclear weapons first?I guess we assume Germany use the bomb as an end-all like America did with Japan. Interestingly I don't remember any proof of Hitler wanting to rule the world; it would be really hard to do. It was Europe as one unified economic super power: Germany at its centre, the other conquered countries would be puppets who’s job was to support Germany, the eradication of all useless races, and enslaving of inferior ones. All else is guesswork. Probably Germany would heavily influence other countries and any economic rivals would be put in their places.

jesus is nothing more than a madman Yup.

In a society of core Jewish people; you have some guy/kid preaching that he is the son of a god and many other things that goes against the accepted norm or truth. Definitely a madman, but all so a heretic, non-conformist, revolutionary, independent mind, and a ton of other things.
Jesus was also a belonged to his own personal religion. He was a Neo Jew; many of his beliefs were based on Judaism, and augmented by his own knowledge from sources debatable. Jesus wasn't a Christian because he didn't worship himself.

Best of all is that he was a Martyr. Martyrdom holds power; through it his followers would inspire the masses and uniform them into one of the great three monotheisms. Tragedies inspire action; where as happy ending inspire contentment; both are used by the master manipulator to achieve his ends.

I don't think there's a moral in this one.

[wraizyr]

In a society of core Jewish people; you have some guy/kid preaching that he is the son of a god and many other things that goes against the accepted norm or truth. Definitely a madman.Simply going against the flow does not make you a madman.
Jesus was also a belonged to his own personal religion. He was a Neo Jew; many of his beliefs were based on Judaism.Like all of them?He claimed to be the fulfillment of the Law.
and augmented by his own knowledge from sources debatable.
Which sources?
Jesus wasn't a Christian because he didn't worship himself.
No, but he did claim to be divine.
both are used by the master manipulator to achieve his ends.
Early Christians weren't exactly manipulators, they died for what they believed.

[RelinaIonna]

Simply going against the flow does not make you a madman Insanity is relative, but going against accepted truths can get you their faster. If some one I knew claimed to be the Son of God; and as of yet hadn't worked thaumaturgy, I would think they were nuts. If I didn't think they were kidding.Like all of them? He claimed to be the fulfillment of the Law..So you’re just validating this point then? Though to you it may be s.t.o. (stating the obvious.)Which sources? Divine revelation I guess. Any communion with god is questionable to those of little faith. If you haven't experienced it, then faith is all you have, and even then people can go into denial too.No, but he did claim to be divine."The greater sin is not arrogance, but to create a false idol from it" or something to that end. :DEarly Christians weren't exactly manipulators, they died for what they believedI lack faith in humanity; I'd say their had to be at least one manipulator because of the inherent evil and/or fallibility of humanity. Judas is an example of fault among Christian elite.

Judas then goes on to become the first vampire, lol, suck it Lylith. I can't remember which movie that one was from. :)

[Frattimonde]

Judas then goes on to become the first vampire, lol, suck it Lylith. I can't remember which movie that one was from. :)

Aha, Dracula 2001!

Sry If I bump In like this, but I just wanted to say the name of that movie.


As I may expressed myself before In the "Does God Exsist" thread,
I belive strongly In that there Is an almighty force.

I personally think that It would be more logical
with more then one god. So I do belive in several gods.
Some may call me heathen, but like to be a heathen.

There mayhap be one creator god and
several smaller gods whom helps the creator to keep everthing in balance.

For as I see It, there is no true evil or good.
We are all equal, those who deny It are just
a inbalance of the perfect Neutralilty in this world.

Note that I am not implying that It is wrong to be good.
When I say "those who deny It", then I am refering to those
whom are Chaotic and Evil. The inbalance of this exsistance.

Well anyway, that my opinion.

As for atheists, what´s wrong with them beliving In science?

I don´t really think It matters In what you belive, so long as you do belive.
And provided that you won´t harm anyone with what you belive, and that you can accept others for what they belive.

[RelinaIonna]

Thx Daniel. All those vampire movies have almalgamated into my head. I think I've seen one too many. ^^

[Frattimonde]

Thx Daniel. All those vampire movies have almalgamated into my head. I think I've seen one too many. ^^

It was a kinda cool movie, but I liked better the one that Francis Ford Cuppola had directed.

Bram Stokers Dracula, with Gary Oldman as Dracula.

Did you ever see that one?

[wraizyr]

If some one I knew claimed to be the Son of God; and as of yet hadn't worked thaumaturgyJesus did perform miracles.And let me congratulate you on having the coolest word in this thread.
*Adds thaumaturgy to list of words to say daily.

Though to you it may be s.t.o. (stating the obvious.) Divine revelation I guess.
Cool.I thought you meant something else.
"The greater sin is not arrogance, but to create a false idol from it" or something to that end.Jesus' claim is only arrogant if he is not God.

I lack faith in humanity; I'd say their had to be at least one manipulator because of the inherent evil and/or fallibility of humanity. Judas is an example of fault among Christian elite.Judas died soon after betraying Jesus.All or most of Jesus' inner circle had faults, but they were not manipulators.

Sry If I bump In like thisIt's ok, because you have a Deus Ex avy.


For as I see It, there is no true evil or good.Do you honestly and totally believe that?

Well anyway, that my opinion.
And an interesting opinion it is.
I don´t really think It matters In what you belive, so long as you do belive.
And provided that you won´t harm any with what you belive.Here's where I have to say you are flat out wrong.It matters a great deal what you believe;if you what you believe is true, you will be better equipped to go through life.If what you believe is false, you will be more poorly prepared for life.Believing something really hard doesn't make it right, and in matters spiritual, believing wrongly can cause great harm to yourself.

[RelinaIonna]

It was a kinda cool movie, but I liked better the one that Francis Ford Cuppola had directed.

Bram Stokers Dracula, with Gary Oldman as Dracula.

Did you ever see that one? Don't know those name, can't say if I have. I know I saw the old black and white Dracula. Vampires are sweet; but my fav monster is the Djinn. I luv the Wish master Trilogy.

Actually there's not much worth commenting on. A couple Thx and some :P and a little ???.

[Frattimonde]

Alle onde makter Må vike for hellighet

Perhaps this Is out of the subject, but I´ve noticed that you had this little Norwegian line In your signature. Why If I may ask?

Do you honestly and totally believe that?

Yes I do belive, because.

"Evil" and "Good" are really just words made by man to describe Law and Chaos.
So In truth we are neutral, evil and good are just on different sides of neutraility.

Perhaps what I mean Is that there Is no true evil or good among the gods, they are all beings of neutralilty. And won´t really cling to that which we see as law and chaos.

If there Is a true evil, then It´s us.

The human race, and not the devil.

[XTERMIN8OR1]

Here's where I have to say you are flat out wrong.It matters a great deal what you believe;if you what you believe is true, you will be better equipped to go through life.If what you believe is false, you will be more poorly prepared for life.Believing something really hard doesn't make it right, and in matters spiritual, believing wrongly can cause great harm to yourself.But what is right to believe (in)? Is it Christianity that is right? Or is it Buddhism? Or where the old Egyptians with their Pharaohs and stuff right? (Now that's a quite interesting religion; I even played a game about it called Pharaoh - Queen Of The Nile). Or is it any other religion that is right? Can we ever know what is right to believe in?

[wraizyr]

Perhaps this Is out of the subject, but I´ve noticed that you had this little Norwegian line In your signature. Why If I may ask?
I don't actually speak Norwegian I just think it's a cool line, translated:"All evil powers must yield to holiness."
Or so I've been told.Heck, it's could be a marriage proposal, or a political speech for all I know.

But what is right to believe (in)? Is it Christianity that is right? (Hint:Yes)

"Evil" and "Good" are really just words made by man to describe Law and Chaos.So In truth we are neutral, evil and good are just on different sides of neutraility.Interesting.How does that viewpoint work out in day to day life? It seems as if to function you would need to believe that there is something good, for example intelligence, or wealth, or companionship.Also, how would you view the actions of a group like the nazi's in Germany when compared with someone like Mother Teresa?


If there Is a true evil, then It´s us.The human race, and not the devil.
I don't personally think evil is an object or a person, it more like a lack of or a twisting of good.And I agree, humanity has fallen into much evil, but I have to wonder, how could you possible say that the Devil is not evil.By definition, the Devil is an evil being.

[XTERMIN8OR1]

(Hint:Yes)I was asking a retorical question (a question without a concluding answer).

[Frattimonde]

I don't actually speak Norwegian I just think it's a cool line, translated:"All evil powers must yield to holiness."
Or so I've been told.Heck, it's could be a marriage proposal, or a political speech for all I know.

It´s correct, I do speak Swedish and Norwegian is not so different.

So don´t worry, it´s not a marriage proposal.

But what is right to believe (in)? Is it Christianity that is right? Or is it Buddhism? Or where the old Egyptians with their Pharaohs and stuff right? (Now that's a quite interesting religion; I even played a game about it called Pharaoh - Queen Of The Nile). Or is it any other religion that is right? Can we ever know what is right to believe in?

Someone who shares my opinion, thanks Jurgen.

[wraizyr]

I was asking a retorical question (a question without a concluding answer).
Ok.I didn't give an answer.


So don´t worry, it´s not a marriage proposal.
\m/

Can we ever know what is right to believe in?
At the very least we can eliminate some of the possibilities

[Frattimonde]

I don't personally think evil is an object or a person, it more like a lack of or a twisting of good.And I agree, humanity has fallen into much evil, but I have to wonder, how could you possible say that the Devil is not evil.By definition, the Devil is an evil being. I didn´t say he was not evil, but perhaps not as evil as some of the horros we caused. Who knows, perhaps he only gives people their dark desires, but does not stand for the those evils we´ve caused.

Perhaps I´m just ranting now, it was just a thought.

[wraizyr]

I didn´t say he was not evil, but perhaps not as evil as some of the horros we caused. Who knows, perhaps he only gives people their dark desires, but does not stand for the those evils we´ve caused.
In that case, I guess we actually pretty much agree.Humans are definitely to blame for a lot or most evils(I'm not even going to try to attach a percentage to it), but Satan does attempt to influence people for evil.I guess you're more Christian in your worldview than we thought.:D

[Frattimonde]

In that case, I guess we actually pretty much agree.Humans are definitely to blame for a lot or most evils(I'm not even going to try to attach a percentage to it), but Satan does attempt to influence people for evil.I guess you're more Christian in your worldview than we thought.:D

I was born and baptisted as a catholic, but I´ve never embraced Christ.

[GiaDragoness]

Sorry i havent been on to talk in awhile. Been wanting to reply to this forum but D2 kept getting in the way >.<

(D2 disc: "but gia! You hav'nt played me today!" Gia: "BACK! BACK I SAY! ...MUST...CONCENTRATE...ON...OTHER...THINGS...BESI DES...VIDEO GAMES!!!")

Well if that's the case, then why bother with this whole "life on earth" psychodrma?
He already knows what everyone is going to do before they even had a chance to decide for themselves what it was going to be, so we're all stick fulfilling his omnicience either way.
Why doesn't he just get right down to it and create everyone in their prospective final destination of heaven or hell?
Fresh souls, hot off the press, delivered straight into the furnace of wrath. They're going there anyway, right? Why not just save a step?
Or better yet, do the compassionate thing and just simply not create those people you know won't make the cut for some reason or another.
Why do people ask questions to which they already know the answer? Who knows. But tell me this: would it be fair to those people to never give them the chance? Would it be fair to lock you up in jail even before you commit a crime? According to christianity, everyone will one day have their "day in trial" to account for every last thing they have done. Do you think it would be fair to not even let someone existbecause they would do something wrong? I would say no. Now, as for why did god even create us in the first place: no clue, only speculation. We'll have to ask him when we get there.

That's a crock excuse for the concept of original sin. Humans don't have the desire nor capacity to create death, destruction, and calamity in a world where such things are impossible and don't exist. What the hell kind of response is that? That's not even true or legibly clear. From what i read is,you are saying people have no will or desire to create death amd destruction. Tell that to every soldeir who has fought in a war. If this is'nt what you meant, please clarify.

Yeah, that's under the Christian ruleset though.
When you join an organization, you are expected to follow its rules and regulations. These same rules, however, are totally meaningless to someone who is not a member. Not really. If christianity is true, than you would be required to live in a christian way no matter what. If Christianity is false, you dont have to do a damn thing because it wont matter. It's not "everyone goes to their own seperate heaven, christians go to theirs, and jews go to theirs, etc" Chrsitianity exists, and is the only right way, or it is wrong, and out of the picture completely. It is not both.

Christianity has a handbook which it calls the Bible. Christians, as members of this religion, are expected to obey the rules contained within it. If a member disobeys one of these rules, it's called a sin. This, of course, is all common knowledge. But, what if you're not a Christian? What if you're Jewish, Muslim, Wiccan, Buddhist, Atheist, etc? Do their rules also apply to you? The answer, again, is "no". Sin is plain out "disobedience to god". When a person seeks to go Gods way, and call on jesus's repentance, then all their sin is washed clean. Read later and i discuss this further.

Condemning an entire group of people for the actions of someone else is a total miscarriage of any sane definition of justice. That would be like sentencing you to death row over something your friend's cousin's great grandfather's son-in-law did.

Totally unfair. Totally unjust. It still happens because those people still refuse god by their own free will. Think about it: If you are raised to be against God from the start, unless god intervened directly (which has happened on occasion) then you would refuse to accept God no matter what someone showed you. This is really more the example i was talking about.

The Christian ruleset is like a game. As the old saying goes 'A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing'. Such seems to be the case with Christian doctrine. The less you know about it, it seems, the less you are obligated to it and the better off you are. Christianity is only a beneficial knowledge (once again, assuming Christianity is correct) to those that follow it. To those that know about it and choose not to follow it, it's an obligation. If people are judged on their individual merits if they are ignorant of Christianity, then I say let them be ignorant. For a judge of character and content is a fair and balanced method, and a judge on what religion you believed to be most likely despite none of them being more true than the next is completely biased (depending on what religion you are arguing for). Content of character is universal and knows no prejudice. No, because according to Christianity, everyone is condemned to begin with. God is trying to bring about in our lives so that we will turn to him, and not be left behind, but it is by our own free choice we have to choose. Remember, you cant say you want to remain ignorant and stay safe, because you already know that seeking to deny the truth just so you can stay safe is wrong, because you the know there is more that you are turning your back on. God is not a detonator switch. The countdown is already set, he's just trying to help you get on board the right ship. Do you honestly think if you had an open mind and a will to follow, he would let you fall so easily? I assure you as far as Christianity is real: The only way you fail at being saved by God is if you purposly try to lose. Read that and take it however you will.

It doesn't make sense though. Why would God have to sacrifice himself to himself to satisfy his own sanguinary bloodthirst for sin that he invented over the rules he developed? Good question. I prayed and asked God about this, and He revealed to me the answer.
The blood of jesus is as a sheild of purity that covers one's sins and cleanses them from one completely. It is'nt God's will that people are separated from him, but that's people's choice. Allow me to educate: People who have sinned, are unworthy to stand in the pressence of the lord, because if they did, they would be completely obliterated by his holiness. Sin is unholy, which is the opposite of God. Shadows can't exist where light is, right? So as Sin, or unholiness, which is like shadow, or absence of holiness, cannot exist where there is light, holiness. When we accept Jesus' sacrifice, and repent, it means we are sorry for the sins we have commited, and seek forgivness. God is mercifull, and can only truly forgive you if you ask for it, that way, he takes away your sin, like you ask him to, and you are once again sinless, and can be in his presence (heaven, etc.) without being obliterated. Now then, your probably asking yourself, "why cant he just learn to deal with it?" Because, he cannot violate free will, which he has said that he cannot, and will not, violate our free will. His word (once again, according to christianity) upholds all law and order in the universe, and all that exists. If he violates free will, then he would violate his own word, thus the universe and all of existance, which, is dependant upon his word as stated in scriptures, would collapse. Because God wants people to have fellowship with, not robots, he made us, and gave us free will. Thus, our sinning is a sign that we dont want to be with him, thus we cannot, and jesus, is a sign that we repent, and want back in basically. Hope we cleared up this little misunderstanding just now.

What if (I know many people find this possibility disheartening, nigh unthinkable even), but what if this was the only life that you get?
Well then all their sacrifice and surrendering of their life was in vain. That's one hell of a cost.
As for me? I realized that it was not worth sacrificing this life for any promises or IOU's of another one afterward. I take every day one moment at a time; every existence, one life at a time.
Whats the big loss? You lived life as a good person, never afraid to do what was right in a situation, and you will always be remembered as a good person. You can't take the good times and good experiences and pleasures you had in this world with you, so don't start acting like you can, "if" you refuse to bleeive in religion, and theres nothing afterwards. SO WHAT?! If your wrong, our wrong. Theres no penalty for being wrong. Is there is, please, tell. Even if you have to give up a few ver "temporary" or "trivial" things in this life, it's more than well worth the risk.

Yes, I have developed a skeptical, cynical, and pragmatic approach to things, but I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's great. I don't fall for scams, cults, or religions. Don't get ripped off, hoaxed, or deceived. I am easily able to see through other's lies and tell when they are making them up. Very useful asset. and you also are afraid every single day, fearing for your life, and are scared more than anything to lose it because you have nothing left besides your life. And just because you are skeptical, does not mean you can see through another person's lies. That comes about by experience, and being able to read someone. That has not a damn thing to do with religion.

That does not mean that I would approve of his/her/their methods or think that he/they were beyond reproach though. Although it would be better to get the story first hand from the source rather than what men with agendas have been trying to sell to people for centuries. Yeah, telling people there is a loving God who cares about them and does'nt ask for anything other than the people to do whats right is really a big ass money raker. Yeap. Those missionaries are really rolling in the dough all right. Go ask ProtossChick99 for a few grand if you want. I'd love to hear her response.

So lemme see if I get this straight. If you know for an undisputable fact that God does, in fact exist, then there's no reason to believe in him; but if you don't have conclusive proof and have to rely on speculation and whild guesses then that's a valid reason?
Talk about the antithesis of reasoning. It should be the exact opposite. The only reason you should believe in some radical claim is if it is well founded, proven, documented, and firmly established. The inverse being good reasons not to believe.
It would seem then that ignorance is god's greatest ally. God exists not because of any proof of it's own, but merely due to the inability to disprove it.
First or all, do you have even the SLIGHTEST idea of what what faith is? "Sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see." Secondly, tell me this though, do you really have to beleive something exists if you have proof? No, you KNOW it exists. Therefore, beleiving, a term which is based on you having no solid proof, therefore would become irrelevant.

Think about this: If you really want to know about God, you would have to have faith, but, would that really be enough? God does'nt intend for us to just sit around and say "god is coming, god is coming, and he will oen day smite my enemies!" No, God also intends for us to get up our lazy asses, and seek out some of the things he said. Having faith is good, but doubts in faith would cause us to want to know the truth, therefore leanr more about him, and henceforth, bring us closer to him. Although, some people are just to lazy to continue seeking God, and just give up because they dont want to go that far. Pretty sad really, what many people miss out on because of their own "priorities" in life.

Reminds me of an old quote:

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful the Babel fish (a fish you put in your ear that lets you understand any language) could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic."

- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
To be honest, that which proved him to be unreal, by thus proving him real, would still prove that god exists by logical means, even if by illogical means, he was proven not to exist. Oh yes, this is a great story until i ran out of popcorn. (lol)

I don't see how you can fault someone for picking a nonchristian religion and being honestly mistaken about it. It's not like they knew Christianity was the right religion. The inverse also applies. If Islam or what have you is correct, you can't blame all non-Islamic people for not knowing it. It's not like there was any clear indicator which religion, if any, was correct.
Thats another thing i was talking about with "be carefull what choices you make, you may damn others further down the road." Creating your own false religion is another one of those things that can mislead millions. In any case, i honestly don't know what would happen to people who were mislead and never had the chance. I assume they would be put into hell, but their eternal punishment would not be anything like the people who were responsible.

And yes, i have taken into account that some of these religions were started when no christians were around for 20000 miles and about 4000 years. another example of a screw-ups of a few, that spread down to generations. In any case, knowledge of what the world was like when man's civilization was beggining is not really my forte as much as other things.

If all faiths are taken with equal merit, the wrong path is no more man's fault than it is God's. If you have ever bothered to look into each individual religion, you would see that they are indeed, not all equal. There is a HUGE difference. If you want some examples, you'll have to allow me a few days. I have lots of college works so it might take me a day or so. That plus Diablo 2 Lord of Destrucion pulls in to play it for hours at a time like, every day it seems. :p

Make it unambiguously clear. Spell it out for them if you have to. This is God we're supposed to be talking about here. If he can spawn an entire reality, then making his subjects understand should be trivial by comparison. You have also seen how stupid or stubborn some people can be. In any case, God clearly had something else in mind. Why not go ask him about some of these things?

Yeah, we all know how that works. Say a bunch of supercalifragilistic sttuff happened in the past, give an excuse for it to not happen anymore, and try to sell the angle based on that.
But that's why religions depend on articles of faith. They can't show you anything that proves their case, because nothing like that exists, and if they were selling a false product, one would expect that. That's why they have to play on your emotions and invoke 'faith'.
If you're right then you're right and faith won't make you any more correct. If you're wrong, then all the faith in the world can't change that, and the only thing faith does is makes it harder for you to accept that fact. This is why I find faith to be a sham, and unsuprisingly, why all major religions universally bank on faith. Perhaps, but also because faith is maybe required if this sort of thing actually is real? Just because something fits one profile it does;nt mean it's a universal truth, so dont even begin to treat it that way. "All religions require faith, therefore, all religions are a sham" How do you know one right religion does'nt require faith, and all others copied it? You can't apply a universal truth like that and have it fly. That would be just like saying "thousands of people are bloodthirsty murderers. Therefore, all people are bloodthirsty murderers."

Why would I? You can't just discount logical explanations. If you do that then you'll develop a very strong if nigh unshakable confirmation bias (http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html).
Ohhh! lookie lookie! a link! lmao. anyways, what i was referring to is what you have done. I say something was god, you say it was sheer luck or coincidence. Whats the right answer? Who knows.


If god had a hand in it, we would expect something like the terrorists to be thwarted completely by divine sources or the relevant intelligence agencies to have information magically delivered to them that stopped the attacks. We find that no such thing has happened.

This one right here is a classic. It's called "Argument from Incomplete Devastation":

Argument from Incomplete Devastation

(1) A plane crashed killing 143 passengers and crew.
(2) But one child survived with only third-degree burns.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

Complete logical disconnect between the premise and conclusion.
Once again, you veiw death as the ultimate tragedy. Not only that, you fail to count the people who missed the flights, and those people who could have been in the trade centers that werent. We were lcuky to scrape out with as few casualties as we did that day, when we deserved much worse. We looked into the face of danger and threat years ago and mocked it. When it came back to bite us in the ass, we deserved alot worse that what we got.

We can't say that no other advanced life exists in the rest of the universe, because we haven't been able to explore even a good fraction of it. It might be out there, might not. Hell, 90% of the universe is dark matter, which we aren't even close to figuring out. There's too little information to make a statement either way. Also notice that i said "THAT WE KNOW OF" Please read a little closer next time.

True, we do have nuclear weapons, but we also have common sense as well. There are no winners in nuclear war. Like the computer in the movie "War Games" said, "The only way to win is not to play". True, but we have much more than nuclear weapons. I suppose a prime example of what we could do, but have chosen not to do was killed completely when Bush came into the equation. Thank you US government.


Don't count your chickens just yet. He hasn't sunk the ship, but it sure is getting leaky. And if he gets reelected, 4 more years of the same thing just might be the nail in the coffin. He's got a reverse Midas touch. Everything he touches turns to shit.
Dont forget, he made me lose the last shred of niave faith i once had in our government.


And who was subsequently burned alive at the stake (A special type of burning so you don't have the luxury of passing out from smoke inhalation).
When she tried to call up god on the hotline, she got an answering machine.
that still doesnt change the point. She was'nt the first to die a martyr, and wont be the last.

Yeah, we would all be speaking German and they would have wrote the history about how the noble Germans valiantly defeated the invading imperialist American scum. True, but then again, when the nazis were fleeing th camps where they were torturing jews, they tried to blow up the evidence so that no one would know what they did. They knew damn well what they were doing was wrong, and that if the world ever found out, they would suddenly be facing alot worse opposition.

A bad tactical decision costs them the war. It's not the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. You say coincidence, I say Act of God, etc, etc, who in the end is right? tomato, or Tamato? (i wish i could have pronouciation smilies)

It all depends on the situation. Many professed 'miracles' have been revealed as hoaxes or have valid scientific explanations behind them, others were complete fabrications and never happened to begin with, etc.
What remains to be seen is a valid miracle. Like the aforementioned limbless war veterans going into church as a torso with nubs and walking out with brand new arms and legs.
It doesn't happen. Why? Because it can't be hoaxed. Anyone can go up there on the 700 club or a Benny Hinn special and pretend to be blind, paralyzed, or some other internal condition that can be faked and then be 'magically healed', but you'll never see anyone regenerate missing limbs or spontaneously reform a missing fully functional 20/20 vision eyeball from an empty socket .
And yet, many have also proclaimed miricales which have yet to be proven false. Not all miricles are hoaxes my benny hinn type people you know. And besides, Miracles come in more shapes and colors than people being magically regenerated. How about someone risking something they have just to extend a deed of kindness to a stranger, or someone who has even wronged them in the past? How many times would you extend a guesture of kindness to someone who wronged you in the past, even if they were'nt in need themselves? How often would you see a regular public non-religious school to have te students actinf with kindness and decency towards everyone else, instead of "move it or get stepped on" attitude? Miracles, are both unexplained mystery, as well as a person's own choice for good in an hour of darkness. We've all sen in movies where a hero steps up agaisnt incredible odds to right a wrong, how many times in real life do you know where someone would do something alike?

That's my donut!

Damn Zerglings.
Oh no, now someone ELSE is trying to steal my donuts! All dragoness Report to battle stations!

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[King_Critter]

I believe in science because it is proven. Beyond that, I hope that there is a higher power and that we go somewhere when we die, but I have no strict belief in anything as of the moment.

Y'know, a lot of people think we cathlics (or any other religeon for that matter) don't belive in science. Well, I belive in god and I belive in evolution, and IMO evolution is as science-ey as you can get.

oh yeah, and i think that it really dosn't matter what religeon you are, as long as you're a good person.

[Morkeliph]

this thread provides scientific evidence for the doctrine of Resurrection

[Neo]

Wow. Thread necro is bad, BAD. Please don't revive a thread thats been dormant for over 3 months, especially not one thats been dormant for more then a year -_-!!!

-Neo