View Full Version : Cloning. For or Against?
Xx_bender_xX
09-29-2004, 2:07 AM
Cloning, ilegal on humans but some people are haveing there pets cloned. Some people dont think cloning is ethical, and others think its all fine. I personaly think that cloning is a good thing, as long as its not with humans.
What are your opinoins on cloning? Do you aprove or disaprove? Tell us. We would like to know.
Scauthra
09-29-2004, 2:17 AM
Really, it all depends. Right now, cloneing humans would be a bad idea. As it is, the world is getting more and more populated by the day, and our resources are going to be used up a lot faster. Cloneing should be passed, or whatever, but, there just isint a reason for it right now. Because, with the research we gather now about cloneing, could be a very important scientific ability in the future. Who know's what lies for us in that.
Though, I wouldint want my pet's cloned -.- Wouldint be the same. ;-;
Oh, and I suck. (This dare sucks -.-)
Darkslayer633
09-29-2004, 6:25 AM
I would say that cloning is a good idea but not on humans but on animals because then you could clone animals like chickens or cows. allowing for a larger food supply for the ever growing population.
cloning of humans for stemm cell/embryo research only
on animals for food/transplantyness
on a related note Genetically modified food is a grea idea :P
Uuugggg
09-29-2004, 9:35 AM
Geez, has anyone seen Star Wars? With the clone army? Noone says 'Oh, that's terribly unethical! Burn them all!!!' Clones are good... (more to say, but meh)
hammocksleeper
09-29-2004, 12:39 PM
Does anyone here know what the Pope says about cloning?
TheBB
09-29-2004, 12:50 PM
Who cares what the Pope thinks? The Pope has zero credibility in my eyes, considering all the other hoolaboo he takes for granted.
My stance is to wait until we find out excactly what we can use it for. I don't want to worry a lot about techniques still being developed. If I were to take a stance however, I'd say cloning is probably perfectly okay, as long as we have some restrictions around to prevent inbreeding. What's more interesting I think, is all the things we can do with cloning. I won't bother about the infamous "buy a baby" scenario because it's too far out still. Before we get there there's a whole array of useful things that cloning can do, and other techniques cloning will and has showed us.
And for the record, the overpopulation argument doesn't work against cloning. How fast do you think you would be able to clone people anyway? Relative to the current birth rate?
hammocksleeper
09-29-2004, 1:38 PM
Who cares what the Pope thinks? The Pope has zero credibility in my eyes, considering all the other hoolaboo he takes for granted.
I take offense to that. If the Pope condemns cloning then I will go along with him.
I take offense to that. If the Pope condemns cloning then I will go along with him.
No offense, but if you want God's approval, ask him yourself. Don't rely on the opinion of a human being. The Pope, regardless of what you hear, is still just a man. The Pope is a politician in a white robe.
Scauthra
09-29-2004, 3:01 PM
No offense, but if you want God's approval, ask him yourself. Don't rely on the opinion of a human being. The Pope, regardless of what you hear, is still just a man. The Pope is a politician in a white robe.
Hmm. That whole thing about god, and the speaches his 'followers' make to convince the public. "If god wanted us to close, he would allow us to break off from ourselves!" (think mutilplation that some cells do), is just unsenseful. That arguement has little informationt o back it up. 'God' gave us free will, gave us the capability to learn, to think, to evolve. If 'God' had no intension for a human to fly, use technology, or clone, he would of set it so they would not be able to evolve to that point. After all, we are his, or her, or it's creation. Arnt we?
What Nuts said, ask him yourself. Because as I see it, 'God' is not complaining about what we have done to this point. I havint heard a word from him.
EDIT: Oh yeah..... and I suck -.-
hammocksleeper
09-29-2004, 4:30 PM
No offense, but if you want God's approval, ask him yourself. Don't rely on the opinion of a human being. The Pope, regardless of what you hear, is still just a man. The Pope is a politician in a white robe.In order to preserve the Church in the purity of the faith handed on by the apostles, Christ who is the Truth willed to confer on her a share in his own infallibility. By a "supernatural sense of faith" the People of God, under the guidance of the Church's living Magisterium, "unfailingly adheres to this faith."
The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. the exercise of this charism takes several forms:
"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... the infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter's successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium," above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine "for belief as being divinely revealed," and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions "must be adhered to with the obedience of faith." This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.
From the Catechism.
The Pope is not simply a layperson. He may be political (who isn't?), but he represents and is charged with guiding the entire Church. The point is that he's more than a dictator, or even an elected president. He has divine guidance, and I choose to recognize this.
Demosthene5
09-29-2004, 4:47 PM
I havint heard a word from him.shocking.
EDIT: Oh yeah..... and I suck -.-also shocking. seriously i wasn't expecting this.:concern: new trend?
he represents and is charged with guiding the entire Church.Should any mortal be given this job?
He has divine guidance, and I choose to recognize this. Thats up to each person including yourself, but does your trust in him give him authority to control my actions, a person who does not trust him to have divine anything? Like if I wanted to clone a chicken that made superior eggs for my business, should this human that you trust have authority to stop my chicken cloning?
note: this "business" is a metaphor, I will not be accepting or filling orders for super tasty cloned chicken eggs. at this time.
Cloneing should be passed, or whatever, but, there just isint a reason for it right now. Because, with the research we gather now about cloneing, could be a very important scientific ability in the future. Who know's what lies for us in that. Well theres possible cures for about every illness if we learn everything there is to know (including cloning abilities), including cancer because it deals with the subject of how cells mutate and divide, as does stem cell research. Knowing how to do this sort of thing brings about more knowledge. Knowledge is good, but if we start making supersoldiers and killing people, that would be bad. I think it depends on what we do with our abilities.
As far as doing it for the sake of knowledge and ability, I think we owe it to our future generations to provide cures and options for the ill.
I'm curious hammocksleeper, where did that text come from? It's not biblical.
I take offense to that. If the Pope condemns cloning then I will go along with him.
Whatever you want.
hammocksleeper
09-30-2004, 9:31 AM
I'm curious hammocksleeper, where did that text come from? It's not biblical.Must everything come from the Bible? What I love about the Catholic Church is that it's not simply scriptualist or evangelical, but it's a church steeped in deep tradition and practice, dating all the way back to Christ himself. The Gospels were not written in Jesus' time. They were written many years later, often from second-hand accounts.
Although I must admit, what I quoted above is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was commisioned by the Holy See in 1986 to summarize and detail the history and doctrine of the Church.
I can provide scriptural references if you desire them. Although I found this site which you may find interesting. To cut to the chase you can click on Section III - The Pope. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
But we're getting off-topic, and xbender is going to kill us. :D
I think cloning is a very interesting topic, and it of course has great potential. Everyone always says, Well think of all the bad things you could do with it. I say that most of the technology we use today comes from military research. It is implemented in our armed forces and then later given to the public. You can't really stop it from being used for bad purposes, but why should we stop it all together? There are plenty of nations around the world that are tolerant and highly capable of cloning research. These guys are just going to get ahead of us, and we'll be out of the loop.
Cygnus
09-30-2004, 2:29 PM
Remember kids, some people believe differently than you, let's not go crusader on each other... Wait a second, you believe that? BLASHPAMY! ;)
But let me say this: Make your own judgements, don't just listen to what a man says and presume it is fact, investigate things yourself.
Now, in my opinion? Cloning is fine. We can transplant organs, selectively breed and alter the genes of animals and plants, and know that many (if not all) of our characteristics are determined by a veriaty of nucleic acids. Why not let people clone? Aren't we already "playing" god. Heck people have been doing that since the dawn of man. Who picks which of our of our cows and bulls mate? Which corn seeds do we use to seed the next crop? Messing around with nature, to improve human life has been going on since the beginning. It's what we've been doing to well keep us alive.
The good of cloning far outways the bad at the moment. If it can help improve human life, why not use it? Is it any different than what we've already been doing?
Also the population argument, as theBB said, is bogus. It's not like we're suddenly going to start churning out millions a clones a day and send them out in the world. We haven't even cloned a person yet nor have we been able to experiment fully with how much cloning can do for us. Why not try to see if something works instead of blowing something off because of lack of faith in it or foolish fears.
Cloning humans is wrong, but I think cloning animals would be okay. They should clone some endangered species or something..
Scauthra
09-30-2004, 5:44 PM
Cloneing humans is wrong, but I think cloning animals would be okay. They should clone some endangered species or something..
Do care to explain why, please?
Valjean
09-30-2004, 7:24 PM
Hmmm....cloning...
I frankly see nothing wrong with it, like many others have said. With Cloning and Stim-Cell Research, we could improve many things. We could treat cancer and people with disabilities (like leg or arm disabilities)! We could manupulate and multiply our live stock and our plants! It could basically be used for food and medicine; but would eventually end up in the military...:P
Then again, if we grow advanced enough, we could have very fast medical treatments or devices for such things. Or something like that....I'm sooo tired right now and can't think of the words I want. XD
Well, It isn't really wrong I don't think. But I don't really think we should do it. As somebody said the world is already over populated and is growing more and more each day. In about another 50 years or so, the human population will have doubled from 5-6 billion that it is now, to 12 billion. Thats alot of people. ^^ But I think stim-cell research would be okay it trying to prevent desieses or something.. But I don't know. :/ heh.
Demosthene5
09-30-2004, 7:51 PM
Well, It isn't really wrong I don't think. But I don't really think we should do it. As somebody said the world is already over populated and is growing more and more each day. In about another 50 years or so, the human population will have doubled from 5-6 billion that it is now, to 12 billion. Thats alot of people. ^^ I think this idea has come up twice now... I would like to say that we are probably not going to make "gigantic human factories" all over the world for the purpose of having someone else eat our food for us. But if we did end up doing that, and some clones want to eat my food... is there any guilt in shooting a clone? someone else has their soul, right??? ...
right? :/
haha.. good way to put it. :P But im sure it would still be considered murder.
Battlecruiser
09-30-2004, 8:09 PM
Wow, this is the one topic in which I can't decide my feelings on. On one hand, I want science to progress. On the other, I know people will use the knowledge for bad purposes.
Scipio7777777
09-30-2004, 9:43 PM
i guess that i want cloning because its cool and will help humans to progress but it is a little borderline being unetical
Demosthene5
10-01-2004, 12:43 AM
i guess that i want cloning because its cool and will help humans to progress but it is a little borderline being unetical(assume you typed unethical)
unethical how? what is bad about it?
People in some different cultures thought that it was wrong to paint pictures of people, because they believed that once your facial features and eyes especially were in another form, then part of your "soul" would stay in that form forever in a state of unrest...
I think this came around from people being wierded out by accuracy of some paintings staring back at them, but could this the same kind of reaction that people have with being cloned?
Valjean
10-01-2004, 5:54 AM
As somebody said the world is already over populated and is growing more and more each day. In about another 50 years or so, the human population will have doubled from 5-6 billion that it is now, to 12 billion.
Why does everyone seem to think that's what cloning would be used for? O_o;;
I mean, besides if someone created a chain of "Buy a Baby" stores. XD
GiaDragoness
10-01-2004, 1:25 PM
I take offense to that. If the Pope condemns cloning then I will go along with him. Then why dont you come live in my town? They would be greatfull just to have another mindless follower who just does whatever is the "religious thing to do" instead of exercising your own free thought. Sorry if i offend you, but you should be for or against something because of your personally thoughts on the matter, not what someone else tells you to think. You truely have no idea what a gift free speech and thought is until you live in a place where it's forbidden. (thank the good lord for internet)
In any case, I have no quams about it really. What's so unethical about it? Sure i would not be the only one like me, but it would be like having a twin sister, i could get twice as much done! One of me could go to work, the other could work on projects around the house, then we would switch! lol. I would love to have a clone sister like that, it would be cool! ^_^
:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:
Demosthene5
10-01-2004, 1:33 PM
In any case, I have no quams about it really. What's so unethical about it? Sure i would not be the only one like me, but it would be like having a twin sister, i could get twice as much done! One of me could go to work, the other could work on projects around the house, then we would switch! lol. I would love to have a clone sister like that, it would be cool! ^_^ Thats an interesting point, to make partners for yourself, but no clone would ever reach your age unless it was born at the same time that you were. Theres no machine that pops out fully grown humans for anyones bidding :/ yet, thats a scary thought for military purposes. It could be like a barracks popping out marines and sending them in to battle...
hammocksleeper
10-01-2004, 1:34 PM
Then why dont you come live in my town? They would be greatfull just to have another mindless follower who just does whatever is the "religious thing to do" instead of exercising your own free thought. Sorry if i offend you, but you should be for or against something because of your personally thoughts on the matter, not what someone else tells you to think. You truely have no idea what a gift free speech and thought is until you live in a place where it's forbidden. (thank the good lord for internet)I am "exercising my own free thought" by choosing to follow the Pope. If you think aout it, every single rational decision that anyone makes is based on outside influences. The Pope just happens to consist of close to 100% of my influence. Your influences may consist in part of the New York Times, the Food & Drug Administration, the opinions of other forum-goers here, the opinions of your parents and friends, stuff you read online and in magazines, and a whole slew of other things. You didn't come up with your opinion on your own.
Cygnus
10-01-2004, 1:59 PM
I am "exercising my own free thought" by choosing to follow the Pope. If you think aout it, every single rational decision that anyone makes is based on outside influences. The Pope just happens to consist of close to 100% of my influence. Your influences may consist in part of the New York Times, the Food & Drug Administration, the opinions of other forum-goers here, the opinions of your parents and friends, stuff you read online and in magazines, and a whole slew of other things. You didn't come up with your opinion on your own.Point taken but doesn't it seem a bit irrational and foolish to put all your influence in one source then? Wouldn't be a bit smarter to expand your influences beyond one man? Isn't putting all your eggs into one basket a bit... dangerous?
I mean I have no problem with you doing such a thing but in the end... putting all your faith into one source seems a bit ridiculous?
i would not be the only one like me, but it would be like having a twin sister, :smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:
okay, cloning DOES NOT create a person exactly the same as the "clonee" (for want of a better term. the clone would be genetically identical to the "clonee" but would still need to be raised from birth, would be a person moulded by different experiences, would have a different personality. that person would be
unique.....just like everyone else :P
lots of people seem to think that cloning could be used to make a production line, rolling off thousands of identical adults like cars at an assembly plant.
now, let us examine the cloning procees.
step one, extract genetic material from the "clonee"
two, insert said genetic material into a fertilized egg (first removing the goo inside that egg.
step three, place egg inside a womb. (preferably of the same species as the thing that is to be cloned :P)
the "clone" will now grow JUST LIKE ANY OTHER EMBRYO, it will then need to be brought up, in a unique way (because it is impossible to exactly reproduce an upbringing, and even if it wasnt, who said the clone would make the same choices as you?)
ergo the clone will gro into a normal human, the only complications arising if either clone or clonee commits a crime and DNA testing is used :P
reall, cloning is just a fancy form of IVF.
Demosthene5
10-01-2004, 3:22 PM
You didn't come up with your opinion on your own. But its also not from one dude on the other side of the world that youve never had a conversation with or maybe never even seen in person. That seems like alot of trust sticking its neck out in the open... but its your decision.
GiaDragoness
10-01-2004, 5:49 PM
I am "exercising my own free thought" by choosing to follow the Pope.
<....>
You didn't come up with your opinion on your own.
This rather insults me that you would say something like this. How dare you say i did not formulate my own opinion when first of all, you don't know a DAMN thing about me, or what i based my answer on, and second, you are the one who following someone else's opinion in the first place!
Second, to singo: If cloning is what you say it is from your last post, how would that be too much different from artificial insemination? It's just raising up a child like a normal one. The only problem would indeed be DNA testing for like robberies and such, but other than that you could also say the same thing for twins and suck could'nt you? If cloning is really as you describe, then i dont see it at this point, as either harmfull, or harmless, just basicly worthless really. When we get to the point where we can clone entire people as they are, then let me know, until then, what the hell is it besides that "dna results" stuff that anyone would be against?
:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:
Demosthene5
10-01-2004, 7:02 PM
How dare you say i did not formulate my own opinion when first of all, you don't know a DAMN thing about me in basically no-ones defense: would you have any opinion at all if it werent from your surroundings? If you truly came up with all your ideas, then you would think every same thought you do now even if you lived in say... a cave on mars. Our surroundings are our only references after all.
just basicly worthless really.whenever we do something we learn more about it. Learning more about biology, especially cell properties, is a benefit in itself, and I think we owe it to our future to know more.
bluemicrobyte
10-02-2004, 3:49 AM
Cloning, ilegal on humans but some people are haveing there pets cloned. Some people dont think cloning is ethical, and others think its all fine. I personaly think that cloning is a good thing, as long as its not with humans.
What are your opinoins on cloning? Do you aprove or disaprove? Tell us. We would like to know.when I first read the title of the thread for a moment I htought it said "clothing: For or Against?" only upon closer examination did I find that this was about cloning.
Anyways, if we clone stuff, were gonna have a world full of clones, and soon they will figure out how to take over. Ever seen I, Robot? they were basically all clones.....clones will think the same way, clones will rebel, clones will want to rebel the same way...clones will then want to rule over us the same way. Bush wants his way, and therefore we are all doomed to the clones...the cooperating clones.....
Battlecruiser
10-02-2004, 9:09 AM
Why does everyone seem to think that's what cloning would be used for? O_o;;
I mean, besides if someone created a chain of "Buy a Baby" stores. XD
Maybe everyone would want dead family members cloned? Ever see Godsend?
Anyways, if we clone stuff, were gonna have a world full of clones, and soon they will figure out how to take over. Ever seen I, Robot? they were basically all clones.....clones will think the same way, clones will rebel, clones will want to rebel the same way...clones will then want to rule over us the same way. Bush wants his way, and therefore we are all doomed to the clones...the cooperating clones.....
Umm...no. He wasn't talking about machine cloning. He was talking about biological cloning, more specifically about humans. Also, clones don't behave the same. Clones will be just like "regular" people, as long as they are subjected to a "regular" person's nurture. "Regular" people don't always think the same, therefore clones won't either.
singo
10-02-2004, 12:39 PM
Second, to singo: If cloning is what you say it is from your last post, how would that be too much different from artificial insemination?
thats pretty much what i said...shoulda been more specific, i used IVF which is really the fertility treatment not the artificial insemination itself, which is what it is effectively.
If cloning is really as you describe, then i dont see it at this point, as either harmfull, or harmless, just basicly worthless really. When we get to the point where we can clone entire people as they are, then let me know, until then, what the hell is it besides that "dna results" stuff that anyone would be against?
:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:
Well, the main problem with trying to clone a child to actually have it grow up and not just for embryo reasearch is that genetic defects happen.
it is useful however for stem cell reaserch to try and find cures for stuff but apart from that not much
sorry guys, looks like we are gonna be waiting a long time for any "clone armies"
Maybe everyone would want dead family members cloned? Ever see Godsend?
it would not bring them back....see my earlier post
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