Programming Languages

[Markpyro]

I tried learning C++ but plainly, the book I found wasnt for me.
Anyways- I want to learn a programming language but I don't know which to choose nor how to start. Any suggestions?

[Vhaeraun]

You have a C++ compiler? Ya need one of those for programming to work (I think)

You could also get Microsoft Visual C++ somewhere

[Markpyro]

no, i got this book that had a program called DevC++ it worked pretty well

what does microsft C++ thingamabob do?

[Vhaeraun]

Microsoft Visual C++ is a visual programmer.

Basically, you can use it to see wut you are programming (I think. Never used it, so I am not sure what it does)

[WeekendLazyness]

C++ is a good start. If you want to learn more, I suggest going to the bookstore or library and get one by one of the major programming publishers (Sams, O'riley, etc.) and go from there. And we could try checking your code for you, post it within tags.

[TimP]

Actually, Visual C++ is just the compiler. Visual Studio is the visual portion. The Visual C++ .NET compiler, regarded as one of the best compilers, is now available for free. MS Office 2003 was compiled with the VC++ compiler.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=272BE09D-40BB-49FD-9CB0-4BFA122FA91B&displaylang=en

[BSTRhino]

'Visual' actually refers to the fact that it's not (usually) DOS.

Hmmm... first programming language, let's see... I would recommend Visual Basic as a first language. I think that all the other languages are very 'unstrict' compared to VB and it's not good to get into the habit of being 'unstrict' from the start.

[TimP]

Visual C++ is no more Windows oriented than it is console oriented (or DLLs, etc).

VB is not a strict language. Variables aren't required to be explicitly declared and there's no case sensitivity.

There are actually quite a few, popular languages that aren't strongly typed. Some examples that come to mind:

PHP
JavaScript
VB (it can be, with Option Explicit)
JScript.NET
Ruby
Python (not 100% sure, feel free to correct me)

But when most people think of the most popular languages, they are strongly typed:

C
C++
C#
Java

Some people prefer strongly typed languages, some don't. I personally prefer them, but there are merits to loosely typed languages.

[Seal]

Perl? :)

[TheBB]

It's actually very handy to quickly get into the habit of being strict. ;)

[BSTRhino]

Out of all the languages around, Perl is probably the most loose. I think that's its greatest advantage, but I wouldn't recommend learning Perl first because of its unstrictness.

I think that it's a good habit to get into being strict because then you understand when you're doing something ambigious. "You've got to know the rules to break them" is the relevant quote.

Good point, Visual Basic isn't really that strict heh. And yeah, you're right, in Visual C++ you can pick windows or console. I was thinking the Visual part was borrowed from 'Visual' basic which means it's got something to do with windows, unlike QBasic. What language did you learn first TimP?

[Forerunner]

Perl is the greatest programming language and you know it. You can do almost anything in 5 lines of perl. Plus, there are like 5 ways to do almost everything.

I suggest Perl to newbies because it's confusing and abstract :) But more seriously, for beginners, use C++ or Java

[TimP]

Too bad Perl is going the way of the dinosaurs, at least on the web frontier. ;)

I started with Qbasic in 1998 and have become fairly fluent in the following languages over the years. Here is a list in the order I learned them with the year I learned them in parenthesis:

QBasic (1998) - still moderately useful
Visual Basic 5.0 (1998) - obsolete, replaced by VB6.0
Visual Basic 6.0 (1998) - mostly obsolete, unless you need to make native STA COM components
JavaScript (2002)
Java (2003) - never touching it again
Visual Basic .NET (2004)
C# (2004)

Of all the languages, I feel the most powerful and productive with C#. Everything I've wanted to make (console apps, Windows apps, DLL's, web server side apps), I've been able to do in C#.

[BSTRhino]

Wow, you sound like a great application programmer TimP, and you do web programming as well. Wow. For me, I feel bad now because I'm unskilled in the non-web application programming. I started in 1998 too, so I guess we had the same amount of time, except I went in a different direction. I only know QBasic, Visual Basic and Jade in the non-web programming respect. I think that C#, like you're saying, can do everything unlike most high level languages these days, so I feel that if I'm going to go become a real non-web application programmer, C# is a must.

But... I do want to be a web programmer, but I don't want to close down my options.

And yeah, I agree, Perl is running into the ground for web programming these days because of PHP.

[TimP]

Actually, C# doubles as an application and web programming language.


Label l = new Label();
l.Text = "This is a label";


This small block of code works both in WinForms (Windows) and ASP.NET (Web). The unified programming model makes it very convenient. That's one of the reasons I stopped using PHP. I didn't like having to use one language (VB) for Windows development and another language with completely different syntax and keywords (PHP) for web programming.

[TheBB]

"Visual", btw, refers to the part where you sort of drag-and-drop controls onto forms and things. Or so I've heard. :P

[BSTRhino]

Oh yeah, that's right! The .NET platform makes everything standardised so you can use C#, VBScript, JScript and anything thats a .NET language as a web language, doesn't it? That is so cool! I have got to learn that...

[TimP]

Yes, C#, J#, VB.NET, JScript.NET.

[hammocksleeper]

I'll bet in the future, everything is going to be a web-based language, and all your software etc. will come from a remote source, and you can subscribe to access to supercomputers and use their resources so you don't have to have that huge thing in your bedroom but you still get all the power...

[King_Templar]

As far as programming languages, I highly recommend C or C++ because so many other languages are based off of it in some way.

Languages that I know (as in i know enough to do SOMETHING with them. This doesn't mean i know everything about the language):
HTML - Quite a bit. No CSS really though.
Javascript - very minimally.
Basic - Not as much as i used to, mainly because i don't use it anymore
C++ - I really need to continue studying so i can do graphics
PHP - still learning.
TI-Basic - Need to program my calculator in something!

And i'm going to begin studying Perl after i finish off my PHP book. Oh, and BST, just out of curiosity, how would i make an automated program like MPQCompactor? And a general programming question: How would i make a webpage that i could use to run programs?

[TimP]

What kind of programs do you want to run?

[King_Templar]

Well, things such as running a game. BTW, i use windows.

[TimP]

If you're talking about running regular compiled apps, then it's not possible.

[King_Templar]

Ah, ok. Thanks. I guess i'll settle for a link to a folder of my favorite programs. Oh, and TimP, you sound like a pretty good programmer. I had a thread a while back that never really did get much steam. The subject was making a text-based RPG in C++. But no one really seemed to enthusiastic. I was wondering what you think? I kinda would like to do C++ things again...

[TimP]

Oh, if you're talking about running local programs then a simple link will do.

<a href="c:\app.exe">My App</a>

Regarding an RPG, if we can get enough enthusiam and support, I'm never adverse to a programming project. :)

I've been sort of envisioning a game based on a XML Web Services/SQL Server backend. Basically, it would involve writing an API with XML Web Services and then generating proxy classes to interact with them. The benefits are a truly dynamic experience, for example, if an item needs to be added, it's simply added to the server database and the change is reflected to all players without the need to download a new version of the software. Another advantage is easy porting to any type of user interface, a console app, Windows app, web app, even a Pocket PC or Smartphone app without having to rewrite any code.

[King_Templar]

Ah. Ok, thanks for that link tip. And yea, that IS the problem, getting up enough enthusiasm. I know that I am very determined to get something working when I program my calculator at school. I'd like a bigger programming project, though. Just messing around with my calculator is a little dull.

Oh, and as far as i'm concerned, the hardest part of programming is: Inspiration.

Figuring out something to do is SO hard...

[BSTRhino]

I made the MPQ Compactor and Iscript assistant in my favourite language JavaScript believe it or not King_Templar. I love JavaScript, just yesterday I made menus that sort of 'pop' out a bit like a racing car hitting the brakes.

That is a great idea TimP, it sounds a lot like a lot of the games are programmed nowadays, where the data is stored outside the engine. Except usually by outside, it means in archive files, but for your game it'd be on the web. I'm not sure how the MMORPGs are programmed these days, but your idea reminds me of ActiveWorlds, where you sort of walk into worlds, and as you walk around it, the things that come within your visibility start downloading.

Since it's easy for them to change the data, they do all sorts of festive things, like make the ground covered in snow around Christmas. People can also build in the world and others can interact with what fellow members build. It's real cool, and I think that the programming behind it must be very organised, a lot like your idea there.

Another advantage is easy porting to any type of user interface, a console app, Windows app, web app, even a Pocket PC or Smartphone app without having to rewrite any code.
Is this advantage there because the .NET is perfectly portable?

Also, J#, is that related to Java like JScript is related to JavaScript?

[King_Templar]

BST, I know WHAT language, i just don't know HOW. I was asking the HOW, not the What. Understand? If so, good, if not, not good. :)

Anyway, I'm not sure how java compares to C++...

[BSTRhino]

Oh! Right. All you do is type your code, save it with the extension '.js' and double click on it. Voila, you've just made your first JavaScript program. If you want to see how it works, type this in a .js file:

WScript.echo("Hello world!");

[TimP]

Actually, the portability comes from Web Services. Web Services can be used in Java, too. J# is the Microsoft version of Java. JScript.NET is the Microsoft version of JavaScript. Java and JavaScript are VERY different.

[WeekendLazyness]

It's true. One has infinite uses and the other was written for toasters.

[Seal]

<a href="c:\app.exe">My App</a>
wouldn't that be:
<a href="file://c:\app.exe">My App</a>
just that every link needs a protocol...
i'm pretty sure both things work, but mine is the more correct one.

[TheBB]

Why anyone would want to learn Perl is above and beyond my understanding... =\

[TimP]

wouldn't that be:
<a href="file://c:\app.exe">My App</a>
just that every link needs a protocol...
i'm pretty sure both things work, but mine is the more correct one.
Whatever you want.

[Exedore]

Why anyone would want to learn Perl is above and beyond my understanding... =\

PHP is almost identical to Perl with the addition of functions to make it easier to handle HTML and various SQL database queries. It's decently fast, great for string processing and quick-and-dirty programs, and doesn't need to be re-compiled after small changes like C/C++.

[TheBB]

I know... which brings us back to: why would anyone want to learn Perl?