Calling Gosu ZERG & Terra players.. (ZvT)

[xAPxKrZy]

I would like to ask the pro gosu players in here, what do you do in the first 5 minuets of the game when you are playing against a terra?

~Do you 3 hatch? If so why? Do you 2 hatch and tech? do you early expo? Or do u not early hatch at all and why?

~What tactics do you usually use?

~what do you usually go? (ie. Lings at start, then lurk.. Or mutas then lurk)?

~what stratigies do you use?

~list and tips…



As for the terra players.. All you gosu terra players there, what annoys you most playing a zerg???

[Sambo83]

Neverborn's Lost Temple ZvT Guide:

I will only be writing one ZvT guide, as I am a devout believer in this style being the most consistent at higher levels. This style takes a decent amount of skill, intuition, and practice to pull off correctly, and as there are plenty of resources for more elementary zvt openings I will not waste my time writing strats for newbies.

Purpose:

The purpose of this build is to maximize economy while minimizing risks to such "cheese" strats as proxy BBS.

Build Order

9 overlord
12 pool
12 hatchery (at expansion)
If opponent techs:
14 gas
if opponent 11/13 rax or especially 10/12 rax
16-17 hatch in main or at expo if at 6, then immediate gas after.

If you start at 12, put your second hatchery just below/to the side of the ramp and your third at your expansion.

Now as at this point you have taken the economy route and are NOT in control of the game, you must respond to your opponent.

Early Game

vs Tech:

If your opponent walled off, use your initial lings as scouts and only make drones for now. Sending one ling periodically to his ramp to scout (and always maintaining another just outside out of his vision) is crucial to discovering what he is up to, as you have several vulnerable points and you cannot possibly protect them all and expect to win.

vs Early Wraiths:

If your zerglings see only a few (3-4 at the most) marines being made and no new ones in production, there is an extremely high chance that your opponent is wraith rushing. The only other thing that generally comes from this is fast tanks on your expansion cliff, but if he's stupid enough to do that you shouldn't have much trouble beating him. In any case, it is a possibility and we must cover that end as well. Even if you didn't 3 hatch, your spire will not be done in time to save all your overlords from the inbound wraiths. Since you will eventually switch to hydra later and you aren't worrying about tanks, just drop both a den and a spire, make 3-4 hydra, and wait for spire to finish to start making mutalisks. If your spire is nearing completion, you haven't seen any wraiths, and your scouting his ramp still reveals nothing, he's probably trying to put tanks on your cliff like a dumbass, so drop one sunken by the edge and rape it with mutas when it shows up.

vs Tank Rush

If your zerglings see academy units (or an academy) accompanied by slow marine production (i.e. 4-6 marines and medic(s) or firebat(s), he's obviously spending his money on something, and he's either hiding 3 rax m&m, fast m&m dropping, or tank rushing. Most of the time it's the latter, but in case it is the former you may want to suicide your other scouting overlord to find out since the counters to both are fairly different. If assured that he made an early factory make 24 or so speedlings, but don't let your opponent see them. The less firebats he makes the easier this is. If the tank comes out and you aren't sure you can take his army with a speedling flank (or burrow, if you were just that motivated), leave your army hidden and pop down a few sunks to slow him down and collect muta/speedling until you have enough to kill his entire army at once. The sunks should delay his tank(s) enough to build an army capable of doing this. If he leaves a tank or infantry unit unprotected use grouped mutalisks to snipe it. Once the attack is dealt with, proceed to midgame.

vs one rax M&M drop

Similar to the previous, make some speedlings and follow the dropship around when it gets to you. Since it can't unload on top of a dozen+ speedlings, he'll be forced to retreat in plenty of time for midgame. Often after this I'll skip mutalisks altogether and go straight into linglurker => hydralurker using the spire only for scourge.

vs Metal

Very few people do this anymore, but it's not unheard of. If you see multiple facts, sunk a few times and block your ramp (in case of speedvultures), then start massing mutas when your spire finishes with +1 attack upgrade. If your opponent begins making valks switch to range/speed hydralisks and get upgrades for them, and make a few scourge for the valks to include in your first fight in the middle. Valks cost alot of minerals, so you do not have to worry about any excess of tanks. If he continues on land only, muta/hydra is more than sufficient to deal with any amount of goliaths. Throw in a few lings if you're feeling frisky, it's really not a hard strat to beat unless you get caught COMPLETELY unaware.

vs Two Rax

Since you don't have to worry about anything except marines and medics coming through your choke for now, feel free to skip the zerglings (aside from your first 6) and make drones. Scout his ramp a few times as he may still be tank rushing, and you will need sunkens and/or speedlings to deal with that. If you see nothing but a pile of marines, power from all three hatches while teching to spire, not forgetting to block your ramp if it's exposed with a few lings (3 and 6 positions). Once your spire is done, proceed to midgame and be happy the early game was so easy. Make sure you scout for some dumbass trick like a floating rax in your main or such.

Midgame

Collect your mutas until you have somewhere around 6, then go scout his main. If he happens to be playing aggressively and doesn't leave more than a few marines to defend his main, feel free to go gung ho on scvs while he frantically runs back to save his base. Speed really helps here, as keeping your mutas alive is extremely essential, but at the same time sitting at home collecting money is also going to get you killed. If you do see a bunker and/or turrets that are too much for your mutas to handle at this point, don't think you actually have to KILL anything with your mutas yet, the fact that he just spent 300 minerals clogging his base up with defensive shit is good enough. Fly around and see if you can't find a defenseless supply depot or scv building something, and try to kill it without engaging any force of m&m that you can't run over with ease. Also if he sends a tank to your expansion it'll often spend much of the journey unprotected, so feel free to kill those as well. In fact, make sure you DO kill those as well. Meanwhile while this is going on, don't forget to pump drones (or lings, if the fucker has you contained) as well as research lurker at the den you should have built around the point you had 8-10 muta. If he commits to getting a tank or two to your expo and you can't kill it (and you should start this when you first get to his base if you see a factory/machine shop working), forget the lurkers and get a massive amount of +1 attack muta. HovZ in particular likes this, because he gets to call you a newbie after he gets raped with it. Since he probably won't have a rine upgrade, +1 mutas en masse have the ability to melt medium to large groups of unupgraded marines and medics. If he did the more common 3 rax with an upgrade (and possibly teching to sci) do the previously mentioned lurker switch. As your lurkers are finished (and if you've been completely chased out of his main by now), hotkey them in a group next to your mutas, and keep them together. Use a ling or your scouting overlord to keep an eye on his ramp, and expo at least once (twice if he's playing defensively and expanding, since massing and trying to kill it as it lands is very risky and will get you killed very shortly if you don't succeed. After you are sure you can protect your new expos, throw down a couple evolution chambers and begin upgrading ranged attack and carapace. get hydra upgrades and start pumping hydralisks. If you lose your mutalisks in a fight as he tries to pressure you, don't worry, you don't need them. Make a few scourge and position your overlords to find a dropship leaving his base, and continue hydralurker production. If you have enough of an advantage already at this point, feel free to get drop research and take the islands, or drop his base when he leaves to attack you. If you end up with more lurkers than you absolutely need, put a couple at your expansions to protect against drops that you or your scourges miss. Continue expanding every time you win a fight in the middle, and if you lose one don't panic, just collect more units and hit his army again when it's vunerable. Remember that you always get to pick the place of the fight, so don't think you have to deal with it immediately if you are waiting for 6 more lurkers to morph somewhere. Zerg can handle losing an expansion or two, just stay in the game and rebuild what you lose. If you both make it to late game, you can get hive for darkswarm and/or ultraling, both of which are wonderful for breaking m&m&tank pushes into your expansions. Guardians are also very good when used with a little bit of ground support, as they do extreme amounts of damage to groups of m&m. By the time the terran reacts his army is often decimated, and you have free opportunity to expand again or mount a counterattack.

[xAPxKrZy]

Very nice.. I cant tell you how great full I am… I just have a few questions…

Is this your own personal strategy? Or did you copy and paste? Not to be disrespectfull just wondering….

I notice there were mostly use of mutas on the post… I thought mutas get owned by terra easily? Marines goiaths? Shouldn’t fast lurk be better than fast muta? Also, I would like to know whats wid the muta - lurk switch? I think the mutas would just be a waste of gas…

But yes I will use mutas more against terrens, after all you’re the better one…. I just need answers to those questions so that way I understand what the purpose is for...

[Schwitzer]

Is this your own personal strategy? Or did you copy and paste? Not to be disrespectfull just wondering….

Neverborn's Lost Temple ZvT Guide:

.....

[poof]

mutas in the beginning is for harassment, picking off scvs and random marines. It also rapes any kind of drop. In smaller numbers, and with no sci vessels, mutas do well against terran. Its when the numbers get large that it becomes harder and harder to use mutaling.

[Twitt]

For the record, that guide isn't "the basics for newbies". You have to not suck to be able to make use of it, not sure if that applies to you in this situation, just thought I would bring that up before newbs on the forums start trying to correct shit.

[xAPxKrZy]

Well Definitly I Will Try And Use Those Tactics.... Newb Or Not.

If Im To Newb To Accomplish It, Then I Will Keep Trying Till I Perfect It. :)



~ANYMORE TIPS/TACTICS/HINTS/STRATEGIE'S ARE WELCOME!

[Schwitzer]

Umm... why are you capitalising the first letter of every word?

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

Simple Answer: Because He Can Lol

[Sambo83]

Is this your own personal strategy? Or did you copy and paste? Not to be disrespectfull just wondering?.
It's neverborn's guide, as stated in the title of the guide... do I look like neverborn? He's an extremely good gamer that I know from another forum.

I notice there were mostly use of mutas on the post? I thought mutas get owned by terra easily? Marines goiaths? Shouldn?t fast lurk be better than fast muta? Also, I would like to know whats wid the muta - lurk switch? I think the mutas would just be a waste of gas
Fast muta is safer, but fast lurker is workable too. It's really a choice, but neverborn thinks this style is the most consistent at high levels of play. You don't have to worry about cliffing. You can do a lot more harassment in the terran's base. You can keep him in his base which allows you to expand as you switch to lurk. Of course you need lurks for midgame battles which is why you switch. Mutas are the counter to goliath.

I think newbies are better off going lurker first because they just can't control their mutas and it will be useless.

[xAPxKrZy]

Umm... why are you capitalising the first letter of every word?
i actually typed that all in caps.. and for some reason when i submitted it, it caps the first letter on every word only..

and if your wondering why the bottom line is all caps.. well tahts cause i edited it and type all in caps again and came out propperly... something with the website....

i geuss when you post something the first time in caps, it only caps the first letter of every word..

then wen u edit it and type in caps again, it lets it go through.. happens to most of the forums i post in.

Fast muta is safer, but fast lurker is workable too. It's really a choice, but neverborn thinks this style is the most consistent at high levels of play. You don't have to worry about cliffing. You can do a lot more harassment in the terran's base. You can keep him in his base which allows you to expand as you switch to lurk. Of course you need lurks for midgame battles which is why you switch. Mutas are the counter to goliath.

I think newbies are better off going lurker first because they just can't control their mutas and it will be useless.
ok i see... i guess its basicly for harrasment, and yeh that solves the cliffing problem... thx!

i have one more question.. did you just say mutas are the counter for goliaths??? as in mutas > gols?

[Cpt.Chronic]

Apparently goliaths > mutas.

Originally posted by Manifesto7 at www.teamliquid.net:

Junwi (z) vs kOs (t) on Biofrost III

A couple of battle tested veterans opened on the Biofrost, each of them eager to prove that they are relevant in the modern broodwar scene.

Junwi took the right side while kOs took the left, and from the hop both players wanted their valuable vespene early. Junwi actually took it on twelve, before his pool, while kOs waited until a barracks blocked his front choke before starting up his refinery. An scv was busy harassing Junwi’s main, but the zerg took his gas natural at three o’clock and dropped a hydralisk den next to his half completed lair. Because of the block at the terran gates, Junwi needed a look inside the other main, so he sent his lings on a journey down the west border of the map to come up through the mineral only expansion. Unfortunately, a supply depot, an scv, and a lone marine stood sentry on the route, and access was denied. It was a good thing for kOs, as he did not want to reveal his double factory build until his first handful of vultures went on the prowl.

As the bikes scooted across the alien landscape, they came upon a sentry of fresh hydralisks blocking access to the zerg third of the map. With a little micro however, kOs was able to get by them and down towards the zerg expansion at three. The gas mining drones did not stand a chance, and vulture grenades quickly dismembered them, while also revealing a spire in the works as well. kOs boosted his factory count to three, while quickly starting up an armory to respond to the now completed spire.

With upgraded vultures having the speed to blast by Junwi’s still meager forces, four more vultures sped across the map, this time heading to the zerg main. They motored up the ramp and in behind the zerg mineral source, forcing Junwi to send all his drones to his expansion. Being careful of mines, he dealt with the threat with a half group of hydras, but the zerg economy was still beleaguered by these delays.

After finally getting his drones back to work, and ridding his base of the vultures, Junwi set about creating a little offence of his own. As he had a completed spire already, he looked to take a technical advantage over kOs by using air units for increased mobility, and to take out any further bike raids. Meanwhile, after discovering the spire, kOs had switched wholly over to ranged goliaths and taken his mineral only expansion in behind his main. Junwi swooped through the area with his aerial force, but enough goliaths had been manufactured to prevent any serious damage. kOs struck back quickly, taking the bottom route across the map and ending up with nine of his bipeds o the ramp underneath the zerg natural. The gattling rounds cut a swath through the few mining drones, and the spire took some hits, but Junwi had reacted quickly and speedlings and mutalisks quickly neutralized the threat. Both players took a breather for a quick minute, replenished their dwindled army numbers, and Junwi took his mineral only while kOs dropped another two factories to take his macro to another level.

When the engagement began again, the terrain revealed a map teeming with goliaths, as kOs had decided on a mono-unit army, while Junwi seemed determined to prove he could own the skies despite his opponents choice of unit. Mutalisks came gliding in again to the terran expansion, but this time it was met by a field of deadly revolving towers. Determined, Junwi reduced four of them to rubble, but in the face of four more turrets and incoming goliaths, he was forced away without halting the mining. kOs had plans of his own at this time, and as he chased away the zerg from one spot, he was pressing in on another as thirty goliaths poured across the map to the gap between the zerg main and natural. It looked as if the game might be up right there as kOs came wading in, but three sunkens guarding the route to the main morphed just in time to join another three leading to the natural and the goliaths were in a sunken vise with mutalisks and a few zerglings clawing away. kOs turned tail to run, and for the third time Junwi headed for the terran expansion. This time, with the goliaths further out of position, the +2 atk mutalisks destroyed the remaining turrets and forced the scv to scatter. As they made their way north to the shiny new terran gas expansion at ten, the mutalisks regrouped with reinforcements in the middle of the map and tried to strike again. By this time, however, kOs had stationed his army at his expansion, and with a constant stream of new recruits coming from his main, Junwi could make no inroads.

kOs now had his gas expansion secure and online, while his army did nothing but grow. Junwi had teched to his hive, and had a greater spire in the works, but his momentum was flagging as he could not seem to deliver the body blow that would cripple the terran and give him the upper hand. Still though, he stuck with his air units, while also getting some andralings and defilers. As the zerg tried to reach the upper levels of his tech, kOs was content to stick with goliaths as he built up scattered stands of turrets to hinder the zergs movement, as well as another command center to take twelve. Once the greater spire was complete, the remaining zerg mutalisks incubated to form guardians, while his zergling numbers continued to multiply. His time to act would be forced upon him quickly though, as kOs had an uncountable number of 1/1 goliaths marching from west to east. Junwi tried to split this force in half by attacking with his new heavy bombers, but the slow moving guardians were pulled too far inland from the cliff and goliaths surged forward, launching massive volleys of missiles at their foe. Junwi really went beyond his reach, and his guard numbers suffered because of it. kOs parked himself again at the zerg choke, and prepared for a colossal assault while taking the expansion at six. The end to the game came quickly, but somewhat unexpectedly, as both players faced off across the narrow choke. kOs had his goliaths in position, but just as Junwi was about to launch a combination andraling/ defiler/ guardian attack at the terran army, a wing of cloaked wraiths came from above and decimated the zerg air force. With no real option, Junwi tried to make it with only his ground troops, but the metal numbers were too strong, and kOs stomped zerglings like AT-AT’s stomp Ewoks.

kOs > Junwi

Junwi did his best to prove that zerg air was superior to terran metal, but in the end kOs just had too much power. The early mobility of air over land units on this map helped keep Junwi in the game for a long time, but once kOs was able to secure his expansions and leave them without fear of having them instantly razed, he kicked his macro into high gear and put on an impressive display.


^^Now that sounds like a gg.

[Hayley]

Bifrost has no gas at nat, and junwi lost a bundle of drones to kOs's vults :)

[xAPxKrZy]

Apparently goliaths > mutas.

Originally posted by Manifesto7 at www.teamliquid.net: (http://www.teamliquid.net:/)



^^Now that sounds like a gg.
thats what i thought.

[Hayley]

thats what i thought.
Goliaths are not > muta :(

[Jorix]

did we not just prove repeatedly that mutas>gols on bf 2 weeks ago? sigh

[Cpt.Chronic]

did we not just prove repeatedly that mutas>gols on bf 2 weeks ago? sigh
Generally that's true, but there's always exceptions to the rules.

[xAPxKrZy]

ok.. maybe this will settle the dispute,, im only talking about lost temple - wise...

[Topace]

Well I was gonna comment but that first post said pretty much everything there is. Oh, and mutas do beat gols MOST of the time.

[Sambo83]

i have one more question.. did you just say mutas are the counter for goliaths??? as in mutas > gols?

Yes, mutas > gols. We proved this repeatedly 2 weeks ago. I don't care what any newb at tl has to say, 2 gas +1 muta will completely demolish 2 base goliaths.

[Shad0]

If a Terran Player is going gol, and you went expo first, Terran shouldn't be able to even get their first expo... Mutes > Gols that much..

Mutes also own, because they are relatively mineral efficient. If you are massing mutes, chances are you can power and expo hard, making it quickly 3 expos to 1.

Early Lurks is just as "gosu" and works at higher levels of play also. Anon-, who used to play wgt and was up in the top5 consistantly, used lurks first almost everytime. Yes it's a little bit more vulnerable to cliffing, but it provides a very early and strong mid game, because Terran needs a substantial amount of tanks and needs to get at least 1 vessel to expo.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Yes, mutas > gols. We proved this repeatedly 2 weeks ago. I don't care what any newb at tl has to say, 2 gas +1 muta will completely demolish 2 base goliaths.
It wasn't just some noobs opinion (whether or not he is actually noob or not I don't know, nor does it matter), it was a battle report of a recent pro game in one of the Korean pro leauges. Granted, what Hayley said contributed to his success, but it still doesn't change the fact that it happened. It's like you're saying it's impossible to go mech vs. zerg because of mutas, which it's not. And even if the zerg has gas at his expo, you could always get a few valks if he's massing mutas since you should already have the tech for it anyway.

[Sambo83]

Doesn't matter what happened. Mech is far inferior to infantry against zerg. Doesn't mean it's completely impossible to pull off, or there won't be a fluke game here and there. It just means you'll have a harder time if you go mech. If he valk you just make some scourge while going hydra. Valks are so expensive that it will greatly reduce his ability to make tanks or gols.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I'm actually trying to figure out an effective mech build vs. zerg. I've found that 3 or 4 valks (from one port) is really enough to deter most zerg from continuing on the muta path. If you see scourge just run back to your golis for protection. The valks also keep him from seeing the map with his ovies. Once he switches to hydra lurk is where it gets tricky because you will need some vessels and tanks and then won't have much gas left over for golis. Well, that's what happened to me when I tried it my first time, and yes, I lost, but it was a gg. I'm thinking maybe I should pump some vultures for mines so when the lurks move in to burrow next to my tanks they'll take substantial damage and be easier to kill. Another problem that comes up is that my army becomes less mobile when going pure mech, which makes it harder to take out his expos. Maybe I should do like 1 shuttle of m&m to take out an expo while I attack his natural/main with my mech units. I'm just thinking out loud so feel free to disagree or add to it.

[Sambo83]

A good zerg wouldn't use lurks. It would just be hydra/muta. your valks couldn't get in on the muta because of dra.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I dunno, I'm pretty much just going off of that one game that I tested it out on in which he switched to hydra/lurk. I'd really like to see some terran gosu replays going mech vs a gosu zerg, but it's pretty rare b/c of how well m&m works vs them...not to mention the excess minerals that would pile up and then having the only unit available being the vulture, which pretty much sucks vs zerg. I'm going to keep trying different mech variations because, well, I suck with m&m micro.

[Hayley]

Mech is fine on certain maps where there is no gas at your nat because then muta are not really much of a problem, and large amounts of tanks are really strong vs hydra. However, on maps like LT mech is pretty terrible :(

[Sambo83]

Hayley, I don't think any map has gas at your mineral only. :)

[Hayley]

Die~! :P

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

I dunno, I'm pretty much just going off of that one game that I tested it out on in which he switched to hydra/lurk. I'd really like to see some terran gosu replays going mech vs a gosu zerg, but it's pretty rare b/c of how well m&m works vs them...not to mention the excess minerals that would pile up and then having the only unit available being the vulture, which pretty much sucks vs zerg. I'm going to keep trying different mech variations because, well, I suck with m&m micro.

lol id say... i played the first few missions on the first terran campaign and won them all with mass marines lol

[Cpt.Chronic]

lol id say... i played the first few missions on the first terran campaign and won them all with mass marines lol What? Wrong thread? Make sense please.

[Kamikaze_Chicken]

i dont know either i must of been whacked out on my flu medicine sorry all

[xAPxKrZy]

A good zerg wouldn't use lurks. It would just be hydra/muta. your valks couldn't get in on the muta because of dra.
just a simple question.. does julyzerg go muta hydra vs a T?

[Jorix]

no, he doesnt, because the level of people that he plays wouldnt use shit like metal and valks.

[xAPxKrZy]

no, he doesnt, because the level of people that he plays wouldnt use shit like metal and valks.
are you reffering to my post jorix?

[Jorix]

yes, i am.

[Basan]

Temper, temper...
Jorix, Afterall he's only tryin' 2 learn with more experienced players. :)
Small coachin' isn't that hard, is it? ;)

[Jorix]

i was trying to put an end to that debate, its just dumb. im not against new strategies, but there are reasons that you use certain units in certain matchups, and not others. theres no reason to debate whether X unused unit owns X race or not, because if it did it would be used.

[Basan]

Ok then. Got cleared with ur point (last post). :)