Mass dragoons

[Simallion]

How do I, as Terran, defend against mass Dragoons and High Templars?

[Hayley]

Sieged tanks are very good vs goons :)

[Simallion]

Well how meny? If the opponent has 20 Dragoons should I then have 20 Tanks? And actualy I have already tried that but the Tanks was hopelessly outnumbered.

[Jorix]

if the numbers are even, the tanks should absolutely destroy the dragoons...just siege them -_-

[Hayley]

As long as there aren't 3x as many goons then they won't be able to kill the tanks.

[Simallion]

Ok, but a good player would just move the Dragoons close to the Tanks, and by the time I would have had the Tanks lowered, they would be destroyed.

[Jorix]

you never have all your tanks unsieged at once, thats why you push...by the time the goons move in close, theyre all dead.

just siege your front tanks, unsiege the back ones, move them forward, siege, rinse, repeat.

[Hayley]

Or if you're going for a nada/oov style push, just siege 24ish tanks at once, and the goons will die so quickly that they won't be able to touch your tanks ;)

[UnHoly-Assassin]

Have you considered using an EMP shockwave? It does 2 important things; take out their shields and the high templar's energies (ouch...that's gonna leave a mark). Then a bunch of marines or tanks or watever would easily kill them off (be sure to kill the high templars before their energies recharge...irridate works nice).

[Jorix]

so, where exactly are you getting this gas from for vessels? oh yeah, from the tanks that you dont make because of it, that would have allowed you to kill their units, but you didnt have them. =P

[Sambo83]

unholy assassin, how does emp even help against goons at all? It takes 2 seiged shots to kill one anyhow.

[Skapare]

It takes 3 shots, but only 2 if they are EMPed.

[okplayer]

tanks > goons
marines/medics > goons
ghosts > goons

[Cpt.Chronic]

ghosts > goons hahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahh ahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahhaahaahahaahahahahahaha

[UnHoly-Assassin]

Compare 10 tanks against 10 dragoons and 3 high templars to 2 sci vessels and 10 marines against 10 dragoons and 3 high templars. 1 science vessel takes out half of their shields. other one kills their high templars with irridate. The marines finish off the dragoons. Now, if you have the tanks instead, they simply move next to your tanks. The other tanks will splash them, so your tanks are damaging their own comrads. It doesnt take a pro to defeat 10 tanks with 10 goons, especially if it takes about 3 hits to kill a goon even when the tank is seiged. And don't forget about their high templars with their psionic storms.

[Hayley]

Umm 10 goons will DESTROY 10 marines, even if they were just emped. Also 10 tanks will kill 10 goons even without sieging, so your examples = bad :(

[okplayer]

ghosts > goons hahahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahh ahahahahahahahahahahahhaahhaahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahhaahaahahaahahahahahahanuke or lockdown, pick your poison:P :cool:

[Jorix]

Compare 10 tanks against 10 dragoons and 3 high templars to 2 sci vessels and 10 marines against 10 dragoons and 3 high templars. 1 science vessel takes out half of their shields. other one kills their high templars with irridate. The marines finish off the dragoons. Now, if you have the tanks instead, they simply move next to your tanks. The other tanks will splash them, so your tanks are damaging their own comrads. It doesnt take a pro to defeat 10 tanks with 10 goons, especially if it takes about 3 hits to kill a goon even when the tank is seiged. And don't forget about their high templars with their psionic storms.
nuke or lockdown, pick your poison:P :cool:
i cant decide which is more dumb.

[ZergMan]

How do I, as Terran, defend against mass Dragoons and High Templars?


Use seige tanks and vultures. Keep at least a sizeable amount of your seige tanks in seige mode with some in tank mode. I keep some in tank mode for micro'ing purposes.Vultures are fast and can do a pretty large amount of damage using their spider mines. Just lay them near an enemy formation and watch them go boom. I am mainly a Zerg player so...yeah these may or may not work for you.

[Schwitzer]

Ergh... some of this advice in this thread is way off. I'm wondering if certain people have actually tried the strategies they're suggesting, because they're rediculous.

Tanks and Vultures are a favourite TvP strategy for a damn good reason... if you're that worried about High Templar, use a group of Vultures to make hit-and-run attacks and take them out... although I would expect Tank splash and Spider Mines splash to kill them easily enough, anyway.

[Basan]

Compare 10 tanks against 10 dragoons and 3 high templars to 2 sci vessels and 10 marines against 10 dragoons and 3 high templars. 1 science vessel takes out half of their shields. other one kills their high templars with irridate. The marines finish off the dragoons. Now, if you have the tanks instead, they simply move next to your tanks. The other tanks will splash them, so your tanks are damaging their own comrads. It doesnt take a pro to defeat 10 tanks with 10 goons, especially if it takes about 3 hits to kill a goon even when the tank is seiged. And don't forget about their high templars with their psionic storms.Just 4 any1 who doesn't know... basic advisable (best) units in T vs.P are Vults, Tanks with a few Marines & Medics. A couple of later Sci Vessels 2 stop D.Temps. raids when u ran out of Scan energy would be a nice touch, tough. :D

Tanks do most of the job, keep the the Vults or M & M 2 help the Tanks gettin' rid of 'sticky units', like 'Lots or close 'Goons, that come by.

S.Vessels... already covered the matter. Excellent 4 stoping cloacked rushes n' also serving as an ahead scout 4 the Tanks in Siege mode.

Add: Ops... Forgot that the Vult's Mines also work as an ahead scout 2 sieged Tanks. :(

[Sambo83]

Lolz Dude Teh Best Tvp Sartagie Is 2 Jus Mass Medix Wit Blind Cuz Den U Ken Jux Blin All Der Unitz N Day Cant C 2 Attak Nuttin

[Shad0]

MM actually isn't very good in tvp, because storm owns them way too hard...

Pushing with vult and tank, while macroing is probably one of the most difficult things to do in a game, and you guys make it seem so simple... =P

Vessels are helpful in detecting DT's but most terran who push build some turrets around there anyway, again pretty difficult to accomplish, but its how most people do it.

You should not have that many problems being outnumbered, a 2 base terran matches up very well against a 3 base Toss, so unless you're allowing to expo all over the map, you shouldn't be too far down in numbers...

[Jorix]

vultank is extremely simple compared to the usual tvz strat with m&m/tank/vessel...

vultank is probably one of the easier things to do as terran.

[Basan]

Vessels are helpful in detecting DT's but most terran who push build some turrets around there anyway, again pretty difficult to accomplish, but its how most people do it.I know that most folks use the Turrets instead (they're tons cheaper), but that's if every1 (in the game at least) agrees not 2 use the game glitch of heading the transport directly 4 the Turret thingy...
It was a glitch of mine, when I said the M & M combo 2 back up Tanks, I meant only in bases/ expos 2 help stop drops. U have a few Marines produced already from the game begginin's 2 stop 'Toss raids. :(

Add: Whoa, Sambo! Did ya got out of the bed from the wrong side this morning? ;)

[SmoTHeReD]

Try to funnel the goons into a valley, or thru a chokepoint. The major terran weakness, is that if you're attacked from all sides, ur fucked. You have to concentrate your firepower in one area at a time in order to destroy an attack force. Also, use vultures and spider mines to keep the goons away from ur tanks, and keep the tanks shooting.

[starcraftruler777]

Tanks work very well, if they're already in siege mode. Another good tactic is to have about four rows of two bunkers. Put 4 marines in the front row. Leave the others empty. Kill the templar now, because psionic storm doesn't hurt buildings. When the bunkers die, just plop the marines in the bunkers a row back. This will give you time to get reinforcements (cloaked ghosts, siege tanks, science vessels, and the like.)

[Hayley]

Another good tactic is to have about four rows of two bunkers. Put 4 marines in the front row. Leave the others empty. Kill the templar now, because psionic storm doesn't hurt buildings. When the bunkers die, just plop the marines in the bunkers a row back. This will give you time to get reinforcements (cloaked ghosts, siege tanks, science vessels, and the like.)
This is a very bad idea; there is almost no situation in pvt where you should build more than 1 bunker, and there are very few of those :P

[Cpt.Chronic]

vultank is extremely simple compared to the usual tvz strat with m&m/tank/vessel...

vultank is probably one of the easier things to do as terran.
I agree. If you can't do a tank/vult push you shouldn't be playing terran.

[Schwitzer]

Tanks work very well, if they're already in siege mode. Another good tactic is to have about four rows of two bunkers. Put 4 marines in the front row. Leave the others empty. Kill the templar now, because psionic storm doesn't hurt buildings. When the bunkers die, just plop the marines in the bunkers a row back. This will give you time to get reinforcements (cloaked ghosts, siege tanks, science vessels, and the like.)
Um... this sounds like an awefully defensive strategy that's going to cost you quite a lot of minerals. Unless they're stupid enough to let you set this sort of thing up right outside their choke, I see it being more detrimental than beneficial.

[Basan]

Hayley & Schwitzer,

My feelings exactly. I try not 2 do the Bunker happy thing, unless doing it in a push (maybe vs. virus player Zerg expos)... but even in those cases, it's way expensive. :P

Add: Or maybe in a (cheesy) money map... :lame:

[GiaDragoness]

Based on my experience in SC, Marines and medics could hold off the goons if you had enough, but the high templar would waste the infantry. The only hope you have of surviving a dragoon mass is tanks, and good management. The more your opponent masses goons, mass more tanks i would say. Trust me, there is nothing a ground unit fears more ethan staring into the barrel of a siege tank.

If you are on cliffs, this will also be a fabulous help to you. Goons are not the best unit to get through tight spaces, and if you have a chokepoint, nail them there (of course). You also might want to do what the computer sometimes does, if the situation with terrain is right. Set up tanks in sections, in a network covering each other. If it works, you can hopefull confuse the dragoons enough to overwhelm and destroy them, but i would not suggest this in a flat out area if you can help it. I know this tactics works nice with zealots, im not sure about dragoons.

Schwity is right, Vultures are a nice seek and destroy unit to assasinate high templar. Just be carefull the templar isnt gaurded by 3 or so goons, otherwise you are'nt touching it with your vultures. If you get desparate, make a map that would cause a computer ai script to send draggons and high templar at you, and try to figure out a plan that way.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

[Basan]

Tks 4 the advises, Gia.

But I'm not doing the map spoken around here somewhere.
Sorry but none of the tactics was a new 2 me, except the Vult. thing since I've never saw it in practice... :( Usually players don't allow H.Temps strolling around without bodyguards of some sort. ;)

Add: I knew that Vults are über 2 kill infantry units, like Zealots in hit n' runs. I've pulled and suffered a few myself...
But 2 the H.Temps, I didn't even saw blinks of it!

[Hayley]

12 vultures will kill a high templar in like 1 shot, and it's well worth it to run in and assasinate a few templar then run away :)

[Basan]

12 vultures will kill a high templar in like 1 shot, and it's well worth it to run in and assasinate a few templar then run away :)Uhm, didn't think of it that way... I usually at most keep 'round 6 Vults, just 2 help Tanks out. I use'em later in a suicidal drop, when I don't need'em... ;)

[Hayley]

You need quite a few vultures to support your push, otherwise your tanks will get run over by zealots :)

[Basan]

Yup, u're probably right. My cousin isn't gosu like u lot... N' I'm just better than him, 'cause I've been 'round SC longer. ;)

With him I can pound a push with few units, since he insists in only making 1 type of factory by each base... *Meh*

[Pisces]

Ok, a siege tank has 30(+3) damage and 150 hit points; Dragoons only have 20(+2) damage and 180 hit points, do your maths and work out which will win. If you EMP the dragoons than they only have 100 hit points.

I usaully have a mobile(tank mode) squad of siege tanks incase I need them, and a defense of all spare siege tanks in siege mode; dragoons aren't fast enough to get up in the siege tank's dead zone so you only need to fear zealot rushs which the protoss player protect the dragoons with. If my defense fail before my siege tanks can re-inforce them than I change them into siege mode as a big wall, nothing gets past a wall of siege tanks.

I do wish terrans had recall, there is no better defense than teleporting a squad of siege tanks (in siege mode) to where ever you need.

[Jorix]

hey pisces, zerglings have 5+1 damage and 35 hp, and a hydra has 10+1 damage and 80 hp, yet one zergling beats one hydralisk. youre not taking everything into account.

oh yes, nothing gets past a wall of siege tanks, right -_-...dragoons cant kill tanks, of course, because turtling terrans are invincible.

[Hayley]

Carriers > turtling terran : )

[Jorix]

units > turtling terran =)

[Pisces]

Zerglings have half the cooldown, siege tanks have 37 cooldown which is much closer to Dragoon's 30. If you take everything into account, a golaith beats a carrier but this rarely happens like that; if you take nothing into account than you see the basic stats then how you use that is what makes the differance.

Taking into account this is talking about defense, dragoons are single units which to not attack at once, (seige mode) siege tank has 24 range, 3 siege tanks unupgraded do 210 damage, more than enough to kill a dragoon. In my experiance, even vs upgraded dragoons you can fit 3 rows of siege tanks close enough together so the last row can attack when the first dragoon can. 3 rows of 4 siege tanks, eqauls 3 shots of 290 damage. If you are walking dragoons around they do not form a tight sqaud and if you do not expect to attack, they are usaully in a line. I never said turtling siege tanks are invincable, but compare losing about 12 dragoons to losing 3 siege tanks. I usually have a squad of golaiths infront, this can stop the third row from attacking but the attack AI is generally pretty stupid anyway so they might get a few shots in. Plus Golaiths the best thing to use against protoss, they lack good air to surface attacks besides carriers which are easily destroyed by golaiths and are relatively cheap so good cannon fodder.

[Jorix]

im not going to even bother going through that post to point out all the mistakes. jesus -_-

[Pisces]

Ok, looking from a distance I see 4x70 doesn't equal 290 but I would show you if I had time. Unfortunatly I have 2 jobs, study, painting, drawing and a mod to do. Ok so I made some mistakes, doesn't change the fact; plus you already said you are interpretting it as I am saying this is the unbeatable defense so I won't even try to argue with you.

Bah, dang it, I am supposed to be on the phone....

[Jorix]

fine, ill just have to do it.
Zerglings have half the cooldownwrong.
a golaith beats a carrier but this rarely happens like that;wrong.

Taking into account this is talking about defense, dragoons are single units which to not attack at once,what the hell are you talking about? their attack animation?
(seige mode) siege tank has 24 range, wrong.
In my experiance, even vs upgraded dragoons you can fit 3 rows of siege tanks close enough together so the last row can attack when the first dragoon can.you obviously have no experiance in a real game, seeing as if you did that then zealots and *HIGH TEMPLAR* would rip your ass to shreds.
If you are walking dragoons around they do not form a tight sqaud and if you do not expect to attack, they are usaully in a line. you have never used dragoons in your life, i assume, or at least not against tanks.
I never said turtling siege tanks are invincableyes you did: nothing gets past a wall of siege tanks.but compare losing about 12 dragoons to losing 3 siege tanks.try playing some tvp before you say that kind of dumb shit, it just doesnt happen.
I usually have a squad of golaiths infront, this can stop the third row from attacking but the attack AI is generally pretty stupid anyway so they might get a few shots in. Plus Golaiths the best thing to use against protoss, they lack good air to surface attacks besides carriers which are easily destroyed by golaiths and are relatively cheap so good cannon fodder.goltank is probably the dumbest thing possible to use against protoss, probably worse than m&m. it gets the shit beaten out of it, and wastes gas.

you have no idea what the hell youre talking about.

[Pisces]

Ok, now you are just being childish.
Zerglings have half the cooldown Un-upgraded zerglings have 8 cooldown while hydralisks have 15, sorry I was one off.
a golaith beats a carrier but this rarely happens like that;I've killed a carrier with a goliath but mainly because they were stupid with it.
Taking into account this is talking about defense, dragoons are single units which to not attack at once, No, I am saying that a sqaud or dragoons are lots of little units which can be taken out individaully because they do not move as one.
you obviously have no experiance in a real game, seeing as if you did that then zealots and *HIGH TEMPLAR* would rip your ass to shreds.Yes, you do have to be weary of high templar and I was the one who said that this stratergy was beaten by Zealots in the first place!!
(seige mode) siege tank has 24 range,Arsenal 3 says minimium range: 4, max: 24. This isn't in pixels but you are just scrapping for stuff to say is wrong.

I never said turtling siege tanks are invincable Ok, I am working but I will take a second to look up your age after this because you haven't heard of a exaturation.


try playing some tvp before you say that kind of dumb shit, it just doesnt happen
I should get my battlenet stats...


goltank is probably the dumbest thing possible to use against protoss, probably worse than m&m. it gets the shit beaten out of it, and wastes gas.
I never partically worried about gas as a terran, but you need something to protect against airal assault; Wraiths are expensive with small health and although I do keep some handy, if they bring in some scouts then you are screwed. Golaiths have 125 health for 50 gas (excluding minerals) with no armour, is 100 gas your most powerful defense worth risking for the extra 1 armour an 25 health? Bunkers don't move, M&M are ok but don't have the good anti air defense which is the purpose for golaiths. Vultures can't attack air and don't work well as cannon fodder but I do keep some as support...so that leaves the option of SCVs?

...time to have a few drinks before calling up "Mr Harris";)

[Jorix]

No, I am saying that a sqaud or dragoons are lots of little units which can be taken out individaully because they do not move as one.so in other words theyre ground units? wow, i didnt know that! you DO realize that any protoss player with half a brain is gonna wait until you move out of your base and then flank you, right? i guess thats too much strategy for you to handle, just think about it for a while and let it sink in.
Arsenal 3 says minimium range: 4, max: 24.i was talking in starcraft units, which are half that.
Ok, I am working but I will take a second to look up your age after this because you haven't heard of a exaturation.no, i havent. i HAVE heard of exaggerations, but exaggerating about a strategy would be counterproductive.
I should get my battlenet stats...why? so you can show off how many comps youve beaten? records mean nothing.
I never partically worried about gas as a terran, but you need something to protect against airal assault; Wraiths are expensive with small health and although I do keep some handy, if they bring in some scouts then you are screwed.you dont worry about gas as terran because you probably have such shitty macro you have 1k+ gas saved up. gas is what limits you in tvp, *ALL* your gas should go into making tanks, leftover minerals go into vultures. if they bring scouts you laugh in their face and mow down their base. you ONLY build goliaths tvp if they get carriers when they cant stop your push...if you get them before they go cars, then zealgoontemp will kick your fucking ass.
Golaiths have 125 health for 50 gas (excluding minerals) with no armour, is 100 gas your most powerful defense worth risking for the extra 1 armour an 25 health? Bunkers don't move, M&M are ok but don't have the good anti air defense which is the purpose for golaiths...so that leaves the option of SCVs?lay off the raw stats, they mean diddly squat. have you ever heard of a little unit called the VULTURE? you know, that unit that owns goonzeal(which every decent toss will use in pvt). if minerals are what is limiting you, then you need more scvs...and again, you DONT NEED AIR DEFENSE UNTIL THEY GET CARRIERS! (btw, nice job editing in vultures into your post after i replied.)

[Cpt.Chronic]

Picses, you're a noobie that knows very little about how starcraft is played at a non-noobie level. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you will improve, and the sooner you will stop annoying everyone that even has an inkling of actual StarCraft tactics knowledge.

[Sambo83]

I love it when newbies look at unit stats and then try to theorycraft a "gosu strategy" up never having played competitive craft. And yes, please, pull out your bnet record. I'd like to see it. I myself have played over 6000 games.

[Schwitzer]

Jorix is in the right here, Pisces. Give any of us a game on battle.net if you don't believe us.

[Aqo]

Arsenal 3 says minimium range: 4, max: 24. This isn't in pixels but you are just scrapping for stuff to say is wrong.
each squre in sc is 32*32 pixels, while squre in arensal3 is 25, what means that 24 range in arensal 3 is less than 24 in sc, do the math yourself to have the exact range.... or enter blizzard.com/starcraft

anyway to anyone things arensal3 is another game (modding n00bz are out there), arensal3 is a program used for modding, you can change basic unit states there, like hit points, damege, weapon type, range, sight range, foot/flyer, ect...

anyway if you're being attacked by 24+ dragoons and some high templars than 1 sci vessle, 2 ghosts, and 10~ siege tanks will rape them. (emp them, when they come close they blow up, lockdown those that got too close when siege tanks had cooldown, kill the rest, take the shit out of what left.)

[Jorix]

aqotrooper, you have no idea what youre talking about either. please stop posting advice.

arsenal 3 spaces are half as big as sc spaces, because it is compensating for .5 size units, and starcraft cant accept decimals

[Sambo83]

Seige tank range is 12. Period. Stop arguing newbies.

[Schwitzer]

Seige tank range is 12. Period. Stop arguing newbies.
Which is further than their site range, interestingly enough.

[Basan]

That's why some folks use the Scan Sweep as a scout 4 Tanks (don't use it very often). A well placed unit also does the job. Or Vult mines... they also soften the incoming foes. ;)

[blupp74]

Uhm...have you played a live player ever? First of all you need a lot of medics, with optic flare researched...and the medics need enough energy. Then you have to select each medic individually to blind each attacking unit...and the blind is COMPLETELY USELESS until each and everyone of the attacking units is blinded, at which time your medics will be long gone.



Lolz Dude Teh Best Tvp Sartagie Is 2 Jus Mass Medix Wit Blind Cuz Den U Ken Jux Blin All Der Unitz N Day Cant C 2 Attak Nuttin

[starcraftruler777]

Have you ever heard of the magical thing called sarcasm?
Don't try to start a flame war with sambo.

Another way to let tanks shoot their full attack range is to float an e-bay around in front of them.

blupp74, have you ever heard of the magical thing called sarcasm?
Don't try to start a flame war with sambo.

Another way to let tanks shoot their full attack range is to float an e-bay around in front of them.