Does God Exist? [Archive] - Page 2

biggiemokey

07-10-2004, 6:49 PM

Yes, I do believe in God. In my case, Gods. Even if God was something made up, a divine being just to keep children occupied, for the govt to keep us in line...well, it's working, and it's made people quite happy.

I haven't read this whole thing (just first page) and sorry if this has been said before. But I saw something interesting...:

existence.

evolution over creation.

no adam and eve.

we all started from a single-celled organism, or a few of them. they could have been created during the big bang. they could have been planted by aliens. either way, there was no such thing as the biblical adam and eve. there is too much scientific fact to back up evolution, but there is still no way to humanly prove or disprove the existence of god. therefore, i am agnostic (alert: dictionary). people argue about faith. why? faith is bullshit. religion is indoctrination. why should i believe something just because somebody tells me. they scare you into it, saying that you won't get into the magical world of heaven if you don't believe in god. we are told this as children so we are more easily persuaded. do they really know that you won't get into heaven if you don't believe in god, if heaven even exists. no. they have faith in it. why? because they were told to when they were children. for all we know, religion could have started as a way for parents to get children to behave themselves. hell, that's what they do with santa claus, just more subtly. why have santa claus? because religion is real to them now. it's no longer a way to get children to behave, its become part of their lives, so they need a new figure of obedience. jesus isn't doing his job anymore. i wonder if the people in the future would still have a cross with a man nailed to it. maybe that man would be fat, have a big white beard and wear red clothes...

that is, unless we don't nuke ourselves into oblivion first.

GiaDragoness

07-12-2004, 7:29 PM

Well then now, My turn. Since I live in a town that is pretty much in constant turmoil over religious disputes, allow me to see if i can take a more accurate crack at this while throwing my :2cents: in. Pardon me if I step on some toes or smash up some of you guy's personnal conceptions on how religion works.

I personnally beleive that anyone who does'nt beleive that God, or some type of entity like that exists, has a substantial amount of faith already. Either that or they're just plain stupid. If no being like such existed, how would things on this earth come about to existance? Even Charles Darwin, said his theories of evolution were incomplete and inaccurate, and that the odds of the world just suddenly coming into existance by a correct array of atoms and molocules coming together in a certain order to produce life, was something like 40 trillion to one. If God does'nt exist, How do you explain or define existance?

Many people say that all religions are equal, or that everyone can beleive in their own personnal religion, and achive it. I say it's bull, and so does the Christ. If you had'nt noticed by now, I'm a pretty afirmmed christian, and one of the reasons I stick to it, is because of a few things the bible says that Jesus and God said. Jesus said, that he is the only way to gain eternal life. Period. This means that either Jesus and christianity is correct, and no other religion is right, or more than half the world is wrong in chritian faith. Have you ever noticed the difference between the power of religions? Try going into some buddahist trance, to achieve "enlightenment", or try going and worshiping by saying a whole bunch of holy quoting "at" your god (Allah). You get a little bit out of it, depending on how hard you beleive in it. You hear their words, and what sounds like wisdom. It makes you feel a little easier. Then, after your done with that, go into hear someone who knows how to spread the word of God. I'm not talking about some minister who bores you repeditivly, and just thinks reading random passages from the bible is gonna do it, heck no. I'm talking about someone who is really in the spirit of God, And trust me, you will know it when you see it, as it is clear as day, you will really feel some power flowing about. There is just so much more assertiveness, and more powerfull and meaningfull words with christianity, than any other religion.

Check this out. Most religions have some prophet, who says something like, "follow me, I will show you the way", or "this is the way I have found". Jesus says "I am the way." Theres a big difference. The true power of God is'nt IN the bible itself, that's just a bunch of paper and ink. The true power is what's in the WORDS. I have met some people who say they have tried christianity, and given it up because it did'nt work for them, they said things like "How can I be expected to have such blind faith when I am shown such little to go on?!" First of all, faith is'nt blind, it's being sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see. Think about it. If you already knew there was a heaven and such, that would just make your life so easy would'nt it? Then where would God truley be able to see who really wanted to follow him, and who was in it just for the eternal paradise part for themselves? By no means, despite what some people think, is chritian life ever easy. It's probably one of the hardest walks of life. When your faithful and true, God is always putting more and more trials upon you to keep you at your breaking point(it's the only way you grow actually. Look at RPGs for instance. You dont get to high levels by facing baby rabites now do you?). People ask "why the heck is it so hard?! Why can't he make it easier?!" Well, if life was easy, we would never grow. Smooth seas don't make skillfull sailors, why should we go through life having everything we always need being handed to us? What good would an eternal paradise be to us then?

People always ask that question of "Why does God let bad things happen?" The question is, why do you? I always hear about people whinning because they wanna be some hero and go off and save the world, yet they are not willing to stop and help a stranded car on the side of the road, wanting to go off and show their good intentions to far off nations, yet unwilling to act with decency and respect to their own family, or other kids on battle.net. (for you players of blizzard games.)

If anyone wishes to argue with me or anything, please PM me to get my attention to bring it back to this thread.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

Cygnus

07-12-2004, 7:36 PM

GiaDragoness

07-12-2004, 10:32 PM

Ironically Gia I agree with you on many points, but the question is, when good works rely on human hands rather than those of a supreme being what are you believing in?

A supreme being you can't see, touch, or feel? Or rather the possibility of human beings overcoming their own desires to aid others? I personally favor the latter, I mean who are you doing this for? Your own ticket to paradise? Or just to be a decent person?

I don't need a deity to be a good person.Good works never truely reley on human hands, only the choice to do good, or the choice not to, is ours. All good things spring from God, no one seeeks God unless he draws them to him. It sounds wierd, but trust me, no one does good on their own initiative, God always takes the first step, even if they don't beleive in Him.

The question is, are you doing good things because you beleive that is how God would want us to? Do you do it because you are guilted into it? If you do good things because you are a good person, that's all and nice, but when you do them without acceptance of Jesus' salvation, it's worthless, because it does'nt matter in the end whether you spend your whole life doing good deeds, or evil. If you dont have Christ, it's all worthless, and your going to end up in the same place anyways.

Twist your mind around this: Those who are strongly opposed to God, and have chosen to be against him, will rot in hell, but they may not suffer as greatly, because they chose a side. Those who don't choose a side, or are "luke warm" people, will suffer greater. Trust me, point blanc, you either go with God all the way, or don't go at all. It's much much worse to start down God's path, and turn back, than to never follow at all. When you know it's the right path and you turn away, things just go donwhill exponentually.

A God we can not see, touch, or feel? That depends on whether or not you are ready to accept what He has to show you. God may not manifest himself in some glorious being here, in fact, if he did, his glory would be so radiant, he would obliterate every being on earth unintentionnaly, he does appear to us in other ways. Anyone who does'nt hear his words, is not his own. Sin is the only thing that can block us from hearing god. Sin, in case you did'nt know, is our own personall choice to disobey God, and since he gave us free will to do whatever we choose, the only real thing that can block him from a relationship with us is our own choice. He chooses to respect our choice. Anyways, the point is, we choose on whether or not we accept him. Everyone has that choice, no one is robbed of it. God does'nt show himself in huge glorious signs, He tried that, people still turned away on him. Don't look for a booming voice in your head, rather, try just talking with him, He can hear you. He knows everything, as he created everything, right?

The reason you can just talk with him is because of Jesus' sacrifice (explained later). All it takes is an honest and humble heart, and a willing mind. Don't expect a huge booming voice, or a burning bush. Instead, just talk stright foreward with him. He won't talk back in an audible voice, but rather an idea or a thought, that answers a question you've been asking him for who knows how long. You wont have to wonder if it's him, God has that effect, that when it's him, you'll know without a doubt. The real you is God wants to talk to. Don't put up some act, God can see through it EZ.

Well, in case anyone ever heard that old "jesus died for my sins" and never knew what the heck it really meant, allow me to explain. If you don't wanna hear it, skip the rest of my post.

In the olden days, around the time moses led the isreaites out of Egypt, they built a tent in which they could worship God. There was an outter layer was a wall of sheets, which left a few hundred or some square feet inside. This "outter court" was where a family who had sinned, would come with a spotless, young lamb, that was raised and loved by the family. A preist would than take the lamb, and kill it quickly, without pain to the lamb, with a sword, then the blood drained. The body would be burnt on a bronze box called "the Brazen Altar", and then the blood would be sprinkled on the four horns on the corners of the box as the preist went around three times. If the smoke remained, the sacrifice was accepted, and the sins of the family was forgiven. If the smoke cleared quickly, the sacrifice was not accepted, as the family was not truely sorry for their sins, the sacrifice was not kosher, etc. You see, sins are a terrible crime, and could only be covered by the blood of a sinless, pure creature. Now you know why that one sunday school song "Jesus lamb of God" was'nt made by a drunk farmer or something. lol. So when jesus, the son of God was sacrificed on the cross, he was the ultimate sacrifice, his blood was stronger than a simple lamb, as he was the son of god, ans his blood is so strong that it will cover the sins of any honest heart that seeks forgiveness and repentance. By the way, if anyone ever looked on their calendar, and wondered what "yom kipur" is, it's related to this. Once a year at yom kipur, the high preist would take a spotless lamb raised by the people sacrifice it like before, only this time keeping the blood in a dish, wash his hands and feet with water from a special duo of golden discs connected by a conical tube, containing water, then enter a tent near the back of the court with the blood. This was known as the "inner court". That held a seven candle lamp, which provided the only light (7 is a holy number by the way, it's like god's favorite number or something), and a table of unleavend bread, sybolizing the jews did'nt have time to let it rise when they left Egypt, etc etc, you've probably heard this at every communion in church when you get grapejuice and wonder bread. Then, there was a 1 foot thick curtain at the back of the room. That's, one foot THICK, not wide, or tall. Behind the curtain, was a small room called the "holy of holies". The ark of the covanant was kept in this room. This room was where God's very presence dwelled. The only lgiht in this room was God's very pressence. The preist would come here once a year and pour the blood onto a small peice on the center of ark's cover, called "the mercy seat"(between the cherubs's wings). No blood ever touched down, because God always accepted the blood up. The blood was for the forgiveness of the people as a whole. So now you guys know. Remember that ark of the covanant in Indiana Jones, the first movie? Well, another interesting fact, is that if you ever touched it except by the poles on the side, you die instantly. Nice fun fact huh?

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

TheGreatBrain

07-12-2004, 11:07 PM

I do believe that God exists, and that belief comforts me at times. Some wonder why, if God does exist, he doesn't simply reveal himself and remove all this blasphemous doubt about his existence. What I wonder is if one would recognize God if he saw him.

But enough about that, because believing in God is really not the point. I don't care if you don't believe in God. Hell, I don't care if you do. What I do care about is really the crux of the whole thing. Just be tolerant. Be good to one another. If someone doesn't tolerate you for your beliefs, be the better man and tolerate them for theirs. This goes for people who believe in God and those who don't. When it comes right down to it, the existence or nonexistence of God matters about as much as a warm bucket of shit. How we treat eachother does matter, pay attention to that.

Black.Ice

07-13-2004, 12:29 AM

Have you ever noticed the difference between the power of religions? Try going into some buddahist trance, to achieve "enlightenment", or try going and worshiping by saying a whole bunch of holy quoting "at" your god (Allah). You get a little bit out of it, depending on how hard you beleive in it.

It's not just a bunch of nonsenical words. If you understand the Qur'an, it has a very powerful meaning.

Islam and Christianity are like two sides of a seperate coin, sepearated by one one thing. We believe that Jesus was a prophet, not the son of god.

Both previous monotheistic faiths (christianity and judaism) prophet's state that, "I am not the last prophet, there will be more after me,"

In islam, Muhammad stated, "I am the last prophet. No one will come after me,"

We follow the exact same teachings of the old Christiantiy, with a few changes.

GiaDragoness

07-13-2004, 11:41 AM

I do believe that God exists, and that belief comforts me at times. Some wonder why, if God does exist, he doesn't simply reveal himself and remove all this blasphemous doubt about his existence. What I wonder is if one would recognize God if he saw him.
Read what I posted earlier. If everyone had firm proof that God existed, it would make it that much more difficult to see who really had good faith or not. There was an experiment I took place in once, myself, and two other people were blindfolded, and walked around an unfamiliar place. We were guided by people who could see and everything. At the end, I was stepped up onto a high object, then told to jump off backwards. Little did I know there were 10 people behind me ready to catch me. I had some trouble falling back because I bwas so scared to just fall back. I was like 16 at the time. Next up, some 10 year old boy was told to fall back on three, and he instantly fell back. Amazing how faithful the youngest can be, when us who are older and are supposedly more wise, have more trouble just trusting in the lord and falling, is'nt it? The thing is, we wander around our whole lives, often riding on the brink of our emotional, or physical, or mental limits. If we knew we we're never in any danger, and that God was right there to catch us the whole time, how would we grow? We would'nt learn to have faith in him, and the second something most minor came up, we would complain instantly. Trials build our faith and wisdom. If you never had them, what kind of person would you be? Not very mature or pleasant to be with I'm guessing. Look at people in poor countries, they have damn little, but yet, when they are taught the word of God, they are so thankfull and faithful. Yet we, who have it good, complain and we're all like "oh the world is agaisnt me" just cause we get realmkicked from battle.net, or someone at school calls us a name.

IThis goes for people who believe in God and those who don't. When it comes right down to it, the existence or nonexistence of God matters about as much as a warm bucket of shit. How we treat eachother does matter, pay attention to that.
If you say so. Notice I did not say that us treating each other well does'nt matter, because it does. I was just saying that faith without works is dead, and works without salvation won't get you any closer to heaven. Faith, WITH all those works will. I think it's so funny how alot of people think just by doing good things they can get into heaven. lol, wrong. On the other side of the die however, people who think just because they are saved by the blood of jesus, they can do anything they want and are immune to sin and hell. Wrong again. Jesus is'nt a license to sin, but he is the ticket to eternal life, all you have to do is accept it. Just be warned, once you accept the ticket, the road is narrow and difficult, don't think it will ever be easy. If it is, you'r probably going the wrong way.

Both previous monotheistic faiths (christianity and judaism) prophet's state that, "I am not the last prophet, there will be more after me,"
In islam, Muhammad stated, "I am the last prophet. No one will come after me,"

Jesus was'nt the last prophet, but his entire job was'nt JUST being a prophet. It was a sacrifice to give the world a chance to come to God and spend eternity with him in paradise. The thing I said about God still stands. His wisdom spreads out to even the present day with incredible applicablicy. As for muhammad, I fail to see how him saying that he was the last prophet would be any deciding factor. God is a forgiving God of second chances, he's not like us, (we would all be screwed by now if he was) he is kind and forgiving and slow to anger. Think about it, how many times does it take someone to piss you off before you decide to write them off as an asshole? Nott very many I am betting. God has alot more pateince than that, and as long as we're on this mortal coil we call life, we still have another chance. Every day brings new hope. There is no "do it now or your condemmed!" with God, although some people will have ore chances than others will, sometimes it's more serious.

The choice is awlays ours, our option, our decision, our gain, or our loss. Just simply beleiveing a high divine spirit exists won't save you. Choosing it's way of life is better, because then you have at least chosen a side. The first reason I went with christianity all those years ago, was because I thought, "hey, might as well have something to beleive in. If i'm right, I'll go to an eternal paradise. If not, I was screwed to begin with anyways." AS I started more and more down the path, I realized, that if I ever had a chance to choose something else, I never would have. Sure, the times have been tough, but it's the trials, and the victories you are led to, against unbeleivible odds, that's the proof right there. When you are having hard times, and you can just ask for help as if he was right there, and knowing it's all going to be Ok, instead of having to worshipping at some altar just for your prayer to be heard, it's just so much more personnaly, and it just does'nt get better. I first joined because I thought I had nothing to lose. I soon learned, I had alot to lose, but anything was lost, was never really mine, but something given to me, and returned in much more pristine. There have been sacrifices, but everything I have gained was so much better I could care less about whatever I lost in the first place.

Well, sorry for rambling on like that, I just can't imagine what kind of person I would be if I had chosen a different path. Just telling you guys what I know, and what it means to me.

Damn, I think peace was riht, I DO need my own server. lol

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

DarkAssilant915

07-13-2004, 11:59 AM

Here is my opion on this matter, I am a christian myself and have grown up beliving in god. If god didn't exist then explain human exsistance as we know it. Scientists have explanations on how we came to be, but tell us how the rest of the universe formed by its self. Now I am not tring to say that if you don't believe in god you're a bad person, I am only saying my opion.

Master Computer Dojo,

:cool: DarkAssilant915:cool:

riBd

07-13-2004, 12:04 PM

GiaDragoness

07-13-2004, 1:21 PM

Please excuse the religion bashing.
The thing I don't get about the christian religion is how they warped what Jesus taught to basically fit their own needs. Forgiveness, mercy, love for your fellow man. Not crusades, "holy wars" (which is essentially an oxymoron). Not "If you don't believe in god you'll go to hell" and then also "god is forgiving"? Don't those two totally contradict eachother? And then christianity is heavily, heavily against homosexuality, but WHY?
I believe loosely in buddhism. I like to believe in their morals, not killing living things, values and such. But it would be a lie to say I'm buddhist, because I still am materialstic.
Or maybe I just don't get it.
Well, although what your saying could use a little clarifying, perhaps a little better grammar, I'll see what I can answer out of this:

First of all, when Jesus came, he taught those principles of forgivenss and such. Love your neighbor, because we are all God's children (or creations anyways, but favored above other creations mind you), and he does'nt want us to hurt each other, like your mom and dad dont want you to fight with your brothers and sisters because they love you all. The fact that some people use God's word, or "the sword of God" if you will, to do meet their own ends is simply their own will, not God's.

You people out there have NO idea how much I have to put up with this very same thing, every day. For instance, my town is lead by a "conclave" if you will, of religious leaders in my town use the word of God to denounce, shun, and destroy other people they don't deem "holy" in their eyes, all the time. They twist God's word to fit their own ends. This is just plain human greed. In the new testament of the bible, you read that a bunch of people called "pharisees" do this to jesus, by trying to trick him by using the word of God to their own edge. Righteousness is one of the most powerfull weapons you could imagine. And yes, people who say they do things in the name of God, but do it for themselves, tend to give us christians a bad rap, then again, it's just another fine example of human greed, corruption, however you want to put it. No one is immune to satan's tricks, everyone has to deal with him, and you'd be surprised how hard it is, fending off the fallen angel, Lucifur himself (more explained on that later). That's why sticking close to God, and being not only faithfull and humble, but also showing love to others, is good measure, just so you don't go on some postal killing spree thinking your a crusader or something. God tries to teach us some of this stuff, that's what that nice big old book is for. You know the one, it's holding up the TV in your living room along with the dictionary. While most of the old testament shows some pretty true things, things change a bit after jesus. If your unsure about your life, I would suggest probably skipping to the new testament first, as it will apply a bit more to your life than some of the old testiment stuff. (dont disreguard the old testiment completely though!)

One thing that is pretty dangerous, is something that people often do. When they want to prove themselves right, they go through the bible, looking up scriptures, to prove their point, all the meantime, ignoring ones that are a stipulation, or an exception to the rule. People go through it to pick out that parts they wanna hear, like the part that denouces people that seek gay lifestyles, but all the time, ignoring completely the parts about "do onto others, as God has done onto you" or, "love thy neighbor". If I am correct, the Koran(holy book of islamics if I am correct), has a lot of stuff in it that agrees with stuff from the old testament of the bible, but almost completely disreguards the new testament. People only hear what they wanna hear, not what they need to hear. I have done it myself, when my parents say I can "play video games", but I entirely miss the part of "after my homework is done and my room is cleaned". lol.

Now then, education time once again. If you don't wanna hear it, skip the rest of my post.:
Back a long time ago, before hell was created, Satan, the prince of darkness, was once known as Lucifer, his name meaning light. He was like, the highest of all God's angels, I beleive his class was either a cherub, or high archangel. Anyways, he was in charge of using his wings to cover up the glory of God a bit, so that when God spoke to people in visions and such, his gloryful prensence would'nt kill the simple humans in an instant. Lucifer got jealous of all the glory God was getting, and one day decided to try and steal it for himself. Lucifer, and one third of all the angels went against God in a rebelion. Guess who won? After losing the war, Satan, and the fallen angels, where banished to hell by God, where they became demons, and to this day, Satan, has been a bit sore about that loss, and has wanted revenge ever since. When jesus died on the cross, that pretty much took away all of satan's power that he had over man. Any power that he has left, is just trickery, but be warned, he has gotten pretty damn good at it. Often times, his best trick is to make the wrong way seem right to someone. (henceforth, looking like an angel of ligth, but being a demon, etc.) Only someone who truly knows good, from being faithfull in God can see past such trickery. As Mr.Krane said in Sleepy Hallow, "Evil wears many masks, none so deadly as the mask of virtue.". So you see, it is very easy to take the path that seems right, but it is hard to take the path that IS right. True faith in God, and knowlege, of what is right, can determine who uses the sword of God for good, and who uses it for themselves. A prophet can always be measured, by his message.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

TheGreatBrain

07-13-2004, 3:23 PM

Read what I posted earlier. If everyone had firm proof that God existed, it would make it that much more difficult to see who really had good faith or not. There was an experiment I took place in once, myself, and two other people were blindfolded, and walked around an unfamiliar place. We were guided by people who could see and everything. At the end, I was stepped up onto a high object, then told to jump off backwards. Little did I know there were 10 people behind me ready to catch me. I had some trouble falling back because I bwas so scared to just fall back. I was like 16 at the time. Next up, some 10 year old boy was told to fall back on three, and he instantly fell back. Amazing how faithful the youngest can be, when us who are older and are supposedly more wise, have more trouble just trusting in the lord and falling, is'nt it? The thing is, we wander around our whole lives, often riding on the brink of our emotional, or physical, or mental limits. If we knew we we're never in any danger, and that God was right there to catch us the whole time, how would we grow? We would'nt learn to have faith in him, and the second something most minor came up, we would complain instantly. Trials build our faith and wisdom. If you never had them, what kind of person would you be? Not very mature or pleasant to be with I'm guessing. Look at people in poor countries, they have damn little, but yet, when they are taught the word of God, they are so thankfull and faithful. Yet we, who have it good, complain and we're all like "oh the world is agaisnt me" just cause we get realmkicked from battle.net, or someone at school calls us a name.I don't think you understood what I meant. I understand that faith is tested by God not actually being here. What I was saying is that if God did reveal himself, whould we even see him? I don't think so. How could we ever comprehend or understand something so vastly bigger and more complex than us? I don't think our minds can hold something as big as God.
I think it's so funny how alot of people think just by doing good things they can get into heaven. lol, wrong.This doesn't make any sense. What if you were born in some remote place, and through your entire life tried to live as good as possible, and help others as much as possible, and be tolerant and forgiving, but because of your isolation just never heard of the Christian doctrine or anything in it? So naturally, you wouldn't have any faith in a God that you didn't have any idea about. So this person, who had been virtuous all of his life, wouldn't go to heaven? I don't believe that.

But don't get caught up in the details of this analogy. The crux of the matter is that leading a good life, being tolerant, charitable, and having good-will is what matters. I'll take a shot in the dark and say I think God would agree that faith can take a backseat if a man is all of these things.

wmdeakin

07-13-2004, 10:16 PM

It's not by works that we reach heaven but by faith in God and His Son Jesus. Once you believe your whole world changes, not necessarily in an easy direction. You give up a lot of worldly things but gain a sense of inner peace and contentment. As if you know you are part of the big picture and have a purpose.

I have heard the voice of the heavenly spirit twice. My wife has seen the spirit while on retreat. At my church clouds have appeared and gold has fallen from the ceiling during service. When I pray, the spirit moves inside me and makes me feel peaceful and at rest. Many times I'm guilty of lust, covetousness, rudeness or apathy. God makes me realize how petty that crap is and gets me back on track. Just by reading His word and praying.

Jedi_Templar

07-14-2004, 10:43 AM

But don't get caught up in the details of this analogy. The crux of the matter is that leading a good life, being tolerant, charitable, and having good-will is what matters. I'll take a shot in the dark and say I think God would agree that faith can take a backseat if a man is all of these things.
Actually, this is mentioned in the Bible-

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
-1st Corinthians 13:12-13

It is because God loved us that He sent His son (see John 3:16). Getting to heaven is partly faith on our part, however, the the majority of it is God's love.

riBd

07-14-2004, 12:31 PM

I don't think you understood what I meant. I understand that faith is tested by God not actually being here. What I was saying is that if God did reveal himself, whould we even see him? I don't think so. How could we ever comprehend or understand something so vastly bigger and more complex than us? I don't think our minds can hold something as big as God.
This doesn't make any sense. What if you were born in some remote place, and through your entire life tried to live as good as possible, and help others as much as possible, and be tolerant and forgiving, but because of your isolation just never heard of the Christian doctrine or anything in it? So naturally, you wouldn't have any faith in a God that you didn't have any idea about. So this person, who had been virtuous all of his life, wouldn't go to heaven? I don't believe that.

But don't get caught up in the details of this analogy. The crux of the matter is that leading a good life, being tolerant, charitable, and having good-will is what matters. I'll take a shot in the dark and say I think God would agree that faith can take a backseat if a man is all of these things.
You have just summed up my entire argument better than I could, and in less words, and more elegantly, and with generally more logic, and you've thought it through more.

In other words, I agree wholehartedly.

(ps: Yes, that last sentence was a run-on on purpose.)

GiaDragoness

07-14-2004, 4:00 PM

What if you were born in some remote place, and through your entire life tried to live as good as possible, and help others as much as possible, and be tolerant and forgiving, but because of your isolation just never heard of the Christian doctrine or anything in it? So naturally, you wouldn't have any faith in a God that you didn't have any idea about. So this person, who had been virtuous all of his life, wouldn't go to heaven? I don't believe that.
But don't get caught up in the details of this analogy. The crux of the matter is that leading a good life, being tolerant, charitable, and having good-will is what matters. I'll take a shot in the dark and say I think God would agree that faith can take a backseat if a man is all of these things.First of all, the top part I quoted you on here, you named a pretty impossible scenario. Any pure heart would not escape God's eye. God can see everything at every second, and knows everything. If the person has a willing heart, and wishes to seek God, He would move planetary orbit of any galaxy, if it was nessicary to reach that person. Second, it does'nt matter if someone beleives in it or not, that does'nt discredit truth.

I know your coming from your heartful wishes with this, and that's cool and all, but read the bible if you don't believe me. I'll eat my own socks if you can read the entire bible (with your eyes open and paying attention) and find no part that says that you need to have faith in jesus to live on. "He who beleives in my Son will not perish but have everlasting life". I believe I have read something like that in the bible somewhere at least a few times. Interjections, anyone?

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

singo

07-18-2004, 3:22 PM

yes, but it seems the point is that leading a good life is what matters, not belief

and besides, well seasoned baked socks are edible, by the following logic.......

Cotton=Organic
Organic=Food

hmm, dubious yet logical

TheGreatBrain

07-19-2004, 8:20 PM

First of all, the top part I quoted you on here, you named a pretty impossible scenario. Any pure heart would not escape God's eye. God can see everything at every second, and knows everything. If the person has a willing heart, and wishes to seek God, He would move planetary orbit of any galaxy, if it was nessicary to reach that person.
But my hypothetical man wouldn't wish to seek God. He has never heard of the Christian God and has no concept of a God. God doesn't give you faith in him, you have to come up with it on your own. I believe you said this yourself. My hypothetical man would have no reason to have faith in any God. He would only have reason to live happily, and with virtue. I believe this would satisfy God.

Second, it does'nt matter if someone beleives in it or not, that does'nt discredit truth.This is erroneous. I did not say that because my hypothetical man didn't believe in God, that it didn't matter if God existed or not. In fact, quite the opposite. My man is pure of heart and virtuous, and I think that God would accept him into heaven, because my man knows only love, and God is love.

Then again, maybe I'm just a nut.

GiaDragoness

07-20-2004, 11:39 AM

Ah! good to see someone revived such a never-ending thread! Good to see you back again brain. Now then, onto the argument.

But my hypothetical man wouldn't wish to seek God. He has never heard of the Christian God and has no concept of a God. God doesn't give you faith in him, you have to come up with it on your own. I believe you said this yourself. My hypothetical man would have no reason to have faith in any God. He would only have reason to live happily, and with virtue. I believe this would satisfy God.

This is erroneous. I did not say that because my hypothetical man didn't believe in God, that it didn't matter if God existed or not. In fact, quite the opposite. My man is pure of heart and virtuous, and I think that God would accept him into heaven, because my man knows only love, and God is love.

Then again, maybe I'm just a nut.God does'nt give you faith you have to come up with it on your own? Well, I guess would be rather debatible, but it is required we have to have faith in him even when times are tough. Question though, why would your hypothetical man have no reason to have faith in any god? I see your hypothetical situation, and hypotheticly, I am conflicted by two truths I know. What I have been taught, and by logic, my second forte. Logicly speaking, if you never did anything sinful, then there would be nothing sepparating you from God, so in effect you would go to heaven. The conflicting truth I have been taught, is that in the bible, it says that everyone has sinned. I don't know if this changes depending upon which translation version you read, I beleive this is NIV version. CTE bible may say it differently. But then again, if a man lived a life competely without sin, I would have a rather difficult time beleiving that God would leave him alone completely. Then again this is a hypothetical situaton, So I would have to say that a man who did nothing sinfull throughout his life, would probably get into heaven. Just the fact that we probably should'nt count on this type of thing in real life, because it is a lot more convenient to sin than what most people expect. I hope I answered this question well enough. Any other thoughts anyone?

NIV=New International Version
CTE=Contemporay English version

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

Montgomery

07-21-2004, 3:20 PM

(Great, I accidentally deleted a massive message. Great... Just great...)

Ok, I'll come out and say it: I'm a Christian, specifically a Catholic (don't start a Protestant vs Catholic flame war here, please, present a unified front). I'm also somewhat of a Unitarian - I believe the many religons of the world, even the polytheistic ones, are "many paths to the same truth". I merely choose to take the path that is Catholicism - it is the most familiar to me, one of the deepest, and one of the most lasting.

But I've encountered much resistance to the word of God in whatever form it takes. But why? Why do people refuse God?

Some of it can be attributed to the atheist philosophers, some of whom I shall mention: Nietszhe (did I spell that right?) who said "God is dead." Marx, who said that "religon is the opium of the people", and that it was an object of control over the proletariat, and Freud, who claimed that God was a figment of the imagination.

In my experience, no atheist has been able to disprove the existence of God. Not even here, where so many rose up to the challenge - and so many failed.

But why do people believe in God?

Well, its a complex question. I suppose the most immediate is because the idea of God and gods try to answer that famous question: "Why are we here?"

Atheism and science cannot answer that question - which is why they are wrong. Just flat wrong. They can explain how we got here (even if there are massive holes in their theories), but they cannot explain why we are here.

Science for method, religon for the reason.

I'm not one to disregard an entire side completely, and I do admit scientists have a point in some cases. But their methods are blinded by their false chasing of "reason" - for humanity is, inevitably, an irrational creature.

Faith is the only way to explain why we are here, and (in some cases, like the Big Bang), how we got here. Science cannot answer these questions.

And for those who say that religon has caused more harm than it has fixed, I respond: "Nope." Why? Well, for those who say that wars are caused by religon, I say "You're full of shit." Why? Because you're wrong. The Jihads were probably the only truly religous wars in history. Even the Crusades were motivated more by the urge to achieve peace in Europe, to stop Christian fighting Christian, than to destroy Islam. That was just an excuse for it. In fact, and I quote, "At the Council of Clermont in 1095, [Pope Urban II] recalled the idea of the Truce of God, the armistice of Lent and holy days." What does that mean? That God is, envitably, non-violent and loving (despite the affairs of the Old Testament). And the argument that the Holocaust was motivated by religous means? Wrong. Hitler hated the Jews as a race, not as a religon, even though he was actually an atheist and non-religous, once again proving that atheists have commited far worse crimes than religon has. The Crusades weren't even that bad - they provided a rallying point and unity for both Islam and Christianity, and the war was mostly static and defensive (for the Christians, who only gradually lost ground), with the minimal loss of life that entailed medieval warfare (and minimal civilian casualties). In fact, before Christianity became the dominant European religon, Europe was in a state of constant warfare - it was only after the Church came out victorious that the warfare ended.

And besides, faith isn't that hard. I just got over a massive crisis of faith (even though I was never really an atheist, or even really an agnostic), during which I questioned just about everything. Most people have those - some emerge with their faith strengthened, some emerge with it shattered. Mine was of the former.

But why did I recieve faith? Because I prayed for it. I prayed to God to recieve the gift of faith, and so I did. But it was also aided on several other occasions when I prayed for things I thought extremely unlikely, or practically hopeless - and immediately recieved them. Coincidence? I think not. Nothing in life is a coincidence - everything happens for a reason. And while I don't believe fate is the rule-all-end-all, I do believe that our choices are far more constricted than we may like.

But as for those occasions, one of the first (and weirdest) was in the airport in Seoul, Korea. My flight was about to leave for Toronto, and I had failed to get business class tickets (my father is a Korean Airlines pilot, so we get multi-level tickets. I sat in the boarding lounge, fuming, and asked God, "Why? Why would you do this to me?" A business class ticket for me is not a luxury - it is a necessity. I'm 6'3 - I simply don't FIT in economy class.

As it turned out, when we gave the attendants our tickets, they said "Wait here, please", and changed our tickets to business class. Fair enough, thank you God, and we proceeded into the plane. However, as it turned out, I'd been given the same seat as another man, and was bumped up AGAIN - to First Class. The chances of that happening, both of them, was miniscule. Coincidence? I think not. Thanks, God.

And again, I've felt God's presence in the Vatican, in my tiny little church, in nature, pretty much everywhere. I cannot comprend why people would reject the presence of God when it is so easy to find. Why is it so hard to believe you are loved?

But then again, I got another chance. It was the day after a social disaster involving a girl, a letter, and a MASSIVE misunderstanding. I was in church, and I prayed, "Please, God. Give me another chance. I just want to know the truth. I don't care how unpleasant it might be, I still want to know it. Please." As it turned out, 2 hours after I got home from church, I got my chance, against ALL ODDS.

In any case, I have to go. But just realise that faith isn't as horrible or complicated as you might think.

gediminas

07-21-2004, 4:12 PM

My mother christened when she was already an adult, she never believed in God before my parents had a devorce (it was a hard one).

My grandfather was a complete atheist for 60 years of his life.
But once he got in a car accident and broke his back...
...the pain was horrible (I'm not joking), it was more of an agony.
But once he started praying and achieved faith in God, the pain
disappeared... He has been very religious ever since.

I don't believe in God as some Lord or Creator, but I do believe that we all
shall take punishment for our sins, and since it makes me want to be better,
IT'S OK.
:angel:

bluemicrobyte

07-21-2004, 8:54 PM

My mother christened when she was already an adult, she never believed in God before my parents had a devorce (it was a hard one).

My grandfather was a complete atheist for 60 years of his life.
But once he got in a car accident and broke his back...
...the pain was horrible (I'm not joking), it was more of an agony.
But once he started praying and achieved faith in God, the pain
disappeared... He has been very religious ever since.
There, living proof! what more do you need? (sorry I didn't have time to write a novel post this time)

Montgomery

07-21-2004, 10:16 PM

It's things like that that prove the existence of God - simple, ordinary things that really, once you look at them, aren't so ordinary.

bluemicrobyte

07-22-2004, 4:26 AM

It's things like that that prove the existence of God - simple, ordinary things that really, once you look at them, aren't so ordinary.EXACTLY

====================GiaDragonnis:
Yay!! the smashys have returned!

:smash: Smashy Smashy:smash:

GiaDragoness

07-22-2004, 11:58 AM

Ah, nice to see more activity at the intellectual round table! A true shame would be to see this place grow dust and cobwebs.

I think the reason most people don't beleive in God is because either they think they would have to live life like a perfect little lamb, never having any fun, or they have trouble believing in God because they think that since there is so much evil in the world, they think their lives are so hard, that no God that we religious folk say is good, could let such tragidies happen, or, they just simply beleie there is no point, that people just make up things to feel better, and they don't want to waste their time.
Well, to all of that, I say this: What do you have to lose?
Just because you follow christian faith, does not mean you will be restricted from doing all things fun. The only real sins are things that take place in your life before God. The reason things like stealing, killing, having pre-marital sex, etc, is because God knows how life works. He knows that if people went around doing these things, life fucks up, it does'nt work out to be a well oiled machine when you don;t listen to God telling you what works and what does'nt. If everyone went around getting in fights, sleeping with everyone, stealing, everyone would be so afraid of each other. If we worked together, and acted in peace and kindess to each other, what would we have to worry about? Make no mistake, the more you long to be closer to God, the less you will have in this life. Think, about it: You may be attached to having thins in this world, but you can't take it with you. What's more important, eternal life, or something that can fade away? Don't think for a second that following God, you will have things just taken away from you without warning, it's all up to you. God respects free will, he leaves all disicions up to you.

If you think that God is not a good because he lets bad thing happen, think again. God does'nt let bad things happen for bad reasons, it seems odd, but everything has it's purpose. This is where most people fall, they can only see so short-sightedly in front of them, they can not see what terrible things can be prevented, or what good can spring from things. Think about september 11th. No one took terrorists seriously before then and they are serious. Now we are more prepared. It may be at the cost of inconvenience, but the cost of freedom is eternal vigilance. God let's bad things happen, but we always recover don't we? One thing God put in all humans is the ability to live on an thrive, even against all odds, God gives us the power to survive anything and keep going. Satan tries to negate this by making us focus on what we have lost, and thus we whine, which never does good.

To those who would think God is a waste of time, think about this: If I beleive in God, and practice his principles all throughout life, and there is no God, there is nothing at all, at least people will say good things about me after I am gone. If you die, not beleiveing in God, and there is one? You will wish and long for non-existance for all the trouble you would be in then. For those who would say God doesn't exist, even if he did'nt, doesn't the principals that he teaches us make life a better place to live?

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

Montgomery

07-22-2004, 4:08 PM

Exactly again!

It is better to have faith and be wrong than to have no faith at all.

Think of it in this very cynical way: if WE are wrong, meh. We were better people for it. If YOU are wrong, then you will wish for the rest of eternity you'd chosen our path. Simple as that.

DesertHawk

07-24-2004, 10:56 PM

I believe something exists, but not necessaraly God does. I have studied and reviewed many religions during my lifetime, and plan to continue as time goes on. To say God exists makes one ignorant of other religions.

nobody knows what awaits us in the afterlife, no matter what people may have said or heard. When we die, we have no evidence for what awaits us, and to say that we do makes for an unjustified answer. Although the faiths are strong and they seem to maintain an unstable peace, I do not believe in God.

I am an agnostic, however. So if I am to believe in anything, Darwinism is the way to go. It leaves the most questions unanswered in my opinion, and it was an interesting read. I don't believe in a religion because there are so many, and nobody can tell me whats right and whats wrong, sonce we do not know what to expect after the time of flesh. Thats why I study, to be prepared for the unknown. Since there are so many different afterlifes, you cannot convince me that your way is the right way, because nobody knows what to expect.

Forerunner

07-25-2004, 9:33 AM

Exactly again! It is better to have faith and be wrong than to have no faith at all.

Think of it in this very cynical way: if WE are wrong, meh. We were better people for it. If YOU are wrong, then you will wish for the rest of eternity you'd chosen our path. Simple as that.That's the way I see it.

:bonk:

Montgomery

07-27-2004, 3:18 PM

*SIGH*

Yet another completely indecisive person. It doesn't matter if you're "prepared". If you are a good person, then God, or Yahweh, or Allah, or Vishnuh (did I spell that right..), will forgive you for belonging to some myriad denomination of the primary, central faith that is God.

Piss or get off the pot! Believe in God or not, but don't sit around without a clue in your head of which way to go.

RelinaIonna

07-27-2004, 11:59 PM

Thats what they want you to think. Good little people don't challenge world super powers. Evil costs the WSP money and therefore its been labled bad. I say we all riot and get some free stuff while were at it.

XTERMIN8OR1

07-28-2004, 1:32 PM

XZminX

07-30-2004, 6:56 PM

YES......
(the dots are there because it must be at least 5 chaactes long)

Grom_Icecream

07-31-2004, 3:10 AM

Thx for that totally useless post fella.

If you read through this thread you will see my opinions expressed multiple times. Basically i agree with XTERMIN8OR1.

Here are some on topic quotes i thought i may share:
"i believe in god, i just dont like his fan clubs."
"remember - the same people who wrote the bible also thought the earth was flat."

Pure gold.

Schwitzer

07-31-2004, 5:57 AM

YES......
(the dots are there because it must be at least 5 chaactes long)
Nobody's going to give a rat's arse about your opinion if you just state it like that and fail to provide any form of reasoning. This is the Intellectual Roundtable, not the "spam your meaningless opinions" forum.

riBd

07-31-2004, 11:57 AM

There is really very little point to this thread besides expressing our ideas. Those who believe in god will not be convinced by arguments. Those who don't will not either, or at least with out definite proof which is something neither side has.

That said, it's still an interesting debate.

GiaDragoness

08-01-2004, 11:44 AM

My opinion.
God does not exist. He is nothing more than a spawn by most religions to satisfie people with the thought where to would go after they die. More exactly: if people think they will have a good second life after they die if they're just nice people in their current life, they will be happy. And happy people don't make problems.

BTW: I am christian, but I don't believe in God. There are just some stuff in christianity that are true (although there's also much crap to be found in this religion, just like in any other religion).

No, you are either a liar, or greatly misinformed. You do realize that a christian is someone who beleives that they have sinned, and have called upon the power of Jesus' to wash away their sins, right? This being said, how could you possibly beleive that Jesus is the only way to get into heaven, and at the same time, beleive that God does'nt exist?! That's like saying you can comb your hair with a comb that has no teeth!

Even if God is just a big hoax, where would this world be without Him? We would all just do like Roinnea said, and then how badly would we all be hurting? We follow Christ, and we live by his principles of peace, love, and order. This tends to make us just a bit better people than random assholes who try to screw you over every chance they get, only avoiding the wrong thing because it's illegal, not because they know it's wrong. Think about it. A world with everyone following Christ, people are nice, and curteous, and loving, and understanding. People doing whatever the hell they want, reguardless of other people or their feelings. Which one would you want to live in? If you say the later, than remind me to come in and rob you blind after shooting you in the middle of the night.

I am an agnostic, however. So if I am to believe in anything, Darwinism is the way to go. It leaves the most questions unanswered in my opinion, and it was an interesting read. I don't believe in a religion because there are so many, and nobody can tell me whats right and whats wrong, sonce we do not know what to expect after the time of flesh. Thats why I study, to be prepared for the unknown. Since there are so many different afterlifes, you cannot convince me that your way is the right way, because nobody knows what to expect.
You do realize that there is enough logical evidence to completely bury all that darwin stuff, right? Even darwin said his theories were somewhat flawed, and he could'nt figure out everything. If you go by "the big bang" where everything just suddenly happened, you realize that the odds of enough of the right particles and molecules coming together in the right combination, therefore forming life on this earth, is something like 1 out of 400 trillion or something of the like. And no, I am not making this up, this was off of that one NOVA show on PBS.

xZminx, I hate to say it, but schwity is right. You gotta step up your ante of arguments if you wanna keep up here.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

Cygnus

08-01-2004, 3:12 PM

Even if God is just a big hoax, where would this world be without Him? We would all just do like Roinnea said, and then how badly would we all be hurting? We follow Christ, and we live by his principles of peace, love, and order. This tends to make us just a bit better people than random assholes who try to screw you over every chance they get, only avoiding the wrong thing because it's illegal, not because they know it's wrong. Think about it. A world with everyone following Christ, people are nice, and curteous, and loving, and understanding. People doing whatever the hell they want, reguardless of other people or their feelings. Which one would you want to live in? If you say the later, than remind me to come in and rob you blind after shooting you in the middle of the night.Morals, not god, m'dear. Societies rules evolve and change. Did you know that all of our rules and laws allowed our civilizations to expand beyond simple hunter-gather or small farming villiges. Things are illegal, not because a deity or a book said so, but rather because society says so.

As I said before as well, societies change because otherwise we'd be carving up Christian Kingdoms in the Holy Land, killing the Prodestant for their lies, getting our slaves from Africa and Native American tribes, burning witches etc. etc. Society changes. It happens. But not because angels come down from high or because of a large voice. We have the power to change that.

Also as well, might I add that just because we live in a nation where the majority of people follow Christ, doesn't mean we're all perfect and happy. In fact we have one of the largest prision systems and brimming with inmates to prove you otherwise.

In fact I'd be scared of any world "united" under any religious regime. A global theocracy led fundamentalists of any religion whether it be Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Atheists would be simply horrible. Especially if they'd follow strict teaching of their beliefs... It'd make the Taliban look like some golf club.

GiaDragoness

08-01-2004, 5:15 PM

Morals, not god, m'dear. Societies rules evolve and change. Did you know that all of our rules and laws allowed our civilizations to expand beyond simple hunter-gather or small farming villiges. Things are illegal, not because a deity or a book said so, but rather because society says so.
Your third sentence threw me for a bit of a loop, as it looked like you started to ask a question yet did not end with a question mark. FYI, anyways. The point I was getting at cygnus, was'nt about laws that soceity deems, as much as morals long forgotten by soceity. I mean the types of things that are'nt illegal, but are still in most respects wrong. While some people still have their virtues about them, look around you: People, not peticularly any one group of people do bad things, think for themselves, and are selfish. I would be a hypocrite to say that God is the only one who set good rules, but the fact is, I never denied that people come up with good things and ideas. Some people are good, some are bad, but to ignore their actions based upon their history, beleifs, and upbringings, is a fool's guess. When you take a look a people who practice morals guided by religion, you get a few different main types of people: First, people who just think going to church/whatever they are good, and don't apply the values to their own life. The second, people who get the message, so well in fact, they beleive anyone who does not practice it should be vaporized by lightining. Henceforth, Taliban, Salem Witch Trials, etc. The third type of person is someone who takes in the message, and realizes and applies all aspects of life, remembering that love and mercy come even before judgement and righteousness. This is the kind of thing that goes on in my town. Too many people are over-wrought zealots, and it's hard for me to keep my sanity sometimes with so much religious conflict.

Also as well, might I add that just because we live in a nation where the majority of people follow Christ, doesn't mean we're all perfect and happy. In fact we have one of the largest prision systems and brimming with inmates to prove you otherwise.
Yeah, that's called "taking things for granted" We Americans are disgustingly adept to that this day in age. Also look, do those imates and criminals practice teachings of God, uh, I'm gonna say no.

In fact I'd be scared of any world "united" under any religious regime. A global theocracy led fundamentalists of any religion whether it be Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Atheists would be simply horrible. Especially if they'd follow strict teaching of their beliefs... It'd make the Taliban look like some golf club.
There will never be a perfect world, because everyone has their own idea on how the perfect world should be run. One principle of christianity that some people often overlook, is that it can't be forced. Anyone who does otherwise is'nt following true divine will.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

Cygnus

08-01-2004, 5:20 PM

I happen to agree with mostly everything you've said above so not much to argue over. :)

There will never be a perfect world, because everyone has their own idea on how the perfect world should be run. One principle of christianity that some people often overlook, is that it can't be forced. Anyone who does otherwise is'nt following true divine will.Good point, you shouldn't shove a religion down someone's throat but this will continue to go on. It's my belief that there will be no perfect world and that it's only a work in progress until we're through I guess.

Grom_Icecream

08-01-2004, 7:25 PM

One principle of christianity that some people often overlook, is that it can't be forced. Anyone who does otherwise is'nt following true divine will.
Heh.... Tell that to all the people who died in the crusades, though i will admit things have changed presently.

There is no point to a perfect world. Seriously, what would it achieve. Progress would grind to a complete halt, because there is no need for anything. People would not do anything, as they are happy and content. Society would stagnate.

I am more a follower of evolutionary theory than any religions or other moralistic theorys. One of its major plus's is that evolutionary theory is observable and you can actually check to see whether evidence supports or denies theory. Most religions and the like ask you to take too many things on face value for me to generally accept.

Montgomery

08-02-2004, 4:56 PM

Kopaka

08-02-2004, 5:02 PM

Ok.. Anyhow.... Yes he exists. If you take the bible, and compare the big bang theroy, dino exstintion, and most of the theroys, they sorta match the bible. Like in the big bang. An atom split, and all this stuff happened, like a big explosion. Now take the begginning of the bible. God said, "let there be light." Now compare the two. God's phrase mad an explosion, which is the big bang theroy, thought the universe came together ina matter of days.

Grom_Icecream

08-03-2004, 1:07 AM

Scientific "facts" can be altered just as easily - probably far more easily - than religious doctrine. What "proof" do they have? They could be lying to your face. You take that on faith just as much as we take things like the Bible, the Qu'ran, and the Talmud on faith.

They can be altered more easily because everybody assumes they have proof - which, with sufficent effort, could be totally fabricated. So if anybody's going to get into the "All Religious Writings Are Fictional" arguement, keep in mind that scientific writings are altered far more often than religious writings are.

And, for the last bloody time, the Crusades were not about converting the entire Middle East to Christianity or Islam - they were about establishing Christian control over the Holy Land, so that the Christians would stop fighting each other. In reality, if the Crusades hadn't rallied Christianity around a common cause, far more people would have died from Christian infighting.

And there is plenty of "proof" debunking Darwin, so don't accept him as the scientific Jesus, bringing the Good Book of the Origin of Species down to the ignorant masses. :rolleyes:
Baahahahahaaaaa. Science isn't about faith. The foundation of science is that everything can be tested and shown to be true or false. If science was faked or whatever you seem to think it simply wouldn't work. Thats all there is too it. Scientists don't just find something and proclaim that it works because of a single experimental result. They spend years testing to see how it works, why it works, and conditions necessary and a whole number of other things. Then they publish their results and the rest of the world goes and checks as well. This is why science can be trusted and does not need to be taken on blind faith. Scientists that "lie to your face" would be shown up in an instant as soon as someone thinks "thats not right" and goes to check.

When someone considers religion and thinks "that doesn't sound right" what can they do. Nothing. There is no way to test religious concepts aside from reading ancient books that have been re-translated multiple times, and also modified multiple times. And reading this is by no means testing if it is correct. This is why I chose science over religion.

Darwinism should be respected exactly because there is proof both for and against the theorys. Experts in the field check both sides of the argument and look at all the proof for and againts then make a decision. At the moment I think the proof for Darwinism is more convincing that the proof against so I lean towards this theory. This could change with new evidence and maybe my opinions will change as well. But considering the other options are (in my mind) a lot less scientific I will continue to lean this way.

P.S. - I apologise for all the bold stuff, I got a bit worked up.

bluemicrobyte

08-03-2004, 6:28 AM

WOW! this thread has been here for ages.

MODERATOR: will a mod please add a poll to this that says "God exists" and "God doesn't exist" or something like that? I think it would help summarize the 295 posts into one convenient bar graph

XTERMIN8OR1

08-03-2004, 6:42 AM

No, you are either a liarI a liar? Not in this kind of subjects. If you lie about something like this, you rather fool yourself than someone else.
, or greatly misinformed.Is there a way to be good informed about the existence of God, angels,...?
You do realize that a christian is someone who beleives that they have sinned, and have called upon the power of Jesus' to wash away their sins, right?I don't have the feeling I ever sinned big time. Yes, I know I'm not perfect and I make mistakes. Just like anyone else. This being said, how could you possibly beleive that Jesus is the only way to get into heaven, and at the same time, beleive that God does'nt exist?! That's like saying you can comb your hair with a comb that has no teeth!I admit: I was incomplete in my statements. I also think Heaven doesn't exist too. Jesus probably did exist; there is scientifical evidence and he is mentioned in other religions. But was he able to magickally heal people, talk with the dead, change water into wine? I don't think so...Even if God is just a big hoax, where would this world be without Him? We would all just do like Roinnea said, and then how badly would we all be hurting?I believe in the Evolution Theory of Darwin. Now, that was someone with brains in his head, a revolutioner. Not just someone of the crowd.
By the way: who is Roinnea?We follow Christ, and we live by his principles of peace, love, and order. This tends to make us just a bit better people than random assholes who try to screw you over every chance they get, only avoiding the wrong thing because it's illegal, not because they know it's wrong. Think about it. A world with everyone following Christ, people are nice, and curteous, and loving, and understanding. People doing whatever the hell they want, reguardless of other people or their feelings. Which one would you want to live in? If you say the later, than remind me to come in and rob you blind after shooting you in the middle of the night.
Face it; everyone is an asshole/bitch somewhere deep inside him/herself. Maybe not whole the time and everywhere, but at certain moments. I can be a dick now and then, and I am sure you can also. The girl of your local pizzabar can also regulary be a bitch. Notice: I don't say you are a down-straight asshole whole the time, nor that that theoretic girl (I'm not talking about a 'real' person here) is a bitch whole the time. I say that on certain moments, situations and places everyone can be like that. But one must try be nice as much as he/she can. One must try to hold back the unbehaved being inside of him/herself. But when you, at a certain moment, actually do act like one shouldn't act, you have to hounestly say sorry. As said: I sometimes act like a dick too, but I mostly try to say sorry. Off course; there are people who are immature/unbehaved whole the time, but they aren't with too much.
If you think there is 'something somewhere out there' that watches your back, solves your problems or brings you to Heaven when you die: then go back to sleep, dreaming about your upcoming utopian after-life.
What you're talking about is a utopia, something that will never be true.
If you say the later, than remind me to come in and rob you blind after shooting you in the middle of the night.
Can I have my personal opinion, please?
Considering your own theory, that wouldn't be how a follower of Crist would act.
I am Christian because I believe in some certain things like Being nice towards people, not because I beleive in an eternal power that created me and guides me. But off course, like I already said; it's impossible for everyone to be nice whole the time. Sometimes, one just frees the beast inside of him/herself because you have bad luck. That could go from a wrecked car over a broken leg when skiing to (following is one of the worst things that can happen) losing a friend.You do realize that there is enough logical evidence to completely bury all that darwin stuff, right? Even darwin said his theories were somewhat flawed, and he could'nt figure out everything. If you go by "the big bang" where everything just suddenly happened, you realize that the odds of enough of the right particles and molecules coming together in the right combination, therefore forming life on this earth, is something like 1 out of 400 trillion or something of the like. And no, I am not making this up, this was off of that one NOVA show on PBS.One of the few things that's really reliable is science. I, although, am not a science freak. Actually, maths and fysics are quite hard for me. But I'm quite good at biology.
Yes, off course, there are many unexplainable scientific things (I call it things, because I don't know a better word. Yes, English is not my native language), but therefore we have (for your convenience I shall spell it) R*E*S*E*A*R*C*H. Basically, the only thing scientists ever do, is researching things they can't explain. And off course making numerical and graphical visualisations of what they found in their research. Often they eventually find an explanation, but they even more don't. If they can't find any, they serch for other ways to try to explain. And they won't be pleased untill they finally find an explanation.
By the way: if you don't like science, then stop using your computer, start wearing a Tarzan-suite, and go live in the bushes. Because every single moment of every single day anyone in the civilized world comes in contact with products of science. Or did you think God created computers, cryogenics, space-stations, or whatever? God even didn't create marshmallows. Cause there is no God!

Cool; this must be like my longest post here at WarBoards. My personal record.

Cygnus

08-03-2004, 9:08 AM

Scientific "facts" can be altered just as easily - probably far more easily - than religious doctrine. What "proof" do they have? They could be lying to your face. You take that on faith just as much as we take things like the Bible, the Qu'ran, and the Talmud on faith.
There's one amazing thing that you always forget. I want you to guess who scientists worst enemies are? If you guessed right then you would have said scientists. Other scientists, the first scientist peers force the one to present proper evidence. The theory is experimented and tested on time and time again. Being attacked by scientists with other ideas. Or any experiment for that matter.

There is no "scientist/atheist conspiracy".

And, for the last bloody time, the Crusades were not about converting the entire Middle East to Christianity or Islam - they were about establishing Christian control over the Holy Land, so that the Christians would stop fighting each other. In reality, if the Crusades hadn't rallied Christianity around a common cause, far more people would have died from Christian infighting.
Which is exactly what happened... at first. The Crusades, first began as an attempt to control the holy land want to know what it turned into? Let's see... ever hear of the Fourth Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade)? Guess who they sacked? The Byzantinians, the ones who origionally needed their help. Ever hear of the Great North Crusade (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Crusade)? Ever wonder what they did in Eastern Europe? Slaughtering the Mus... err actually the European heathens no doubt. Or the other hundreds of Crusades that didn't even go to the Middle East.

Sure at the beginning the crusades "might" have been used to prevent Christian infighting, but after they got started any King or religious leader could declare a crusade on just about anything. And they did.

And there is plenty of "proof" debunking Darwin, so don't accept him as the scientific Jesus, bringing the Good Book of the Origin of Species down to the ignorant masses. :rolleyes:
That's the damn problem. You guys think that Darwin was the scientific Jesus, to us that is. He's not. He had some good ideas but they were just the beginning of the theories and the beginning of the evidence. You can try to debunk Darwin as much as you like of course, so have a lot of scientists. But what he did, helped to be the first slab laid in the current theory. One which you guys have a harder time disproving... But no mind you can keep attacking and bashing the poor guy all you want and miss the mountain of bones, genetic, and geological evidence as much as you like.

Montgomery

08-03-2004, 11:02 AM

I never said there was a "scientific/atheist" conspiracy: I merely implied that there could be one. People are always making up conspiracy theories about religion: why not one for atheism?

And seriously, the Crusades were not bloody at all by modern standards: look at World War One, started because of... politics, although nobody is really certain. Not religion. Look at World War Two, caused by... politics. Look at Stalin's Purges, caused by *Surprise, Surprise!* politics! Guerilla fighting in China from 1932 to 1949, Vietnam, all those bloody-ass bombing campaigns the U.S. made in Central America back in the '80's, the Franco-Prussian War, the 7 Years War, etc, etc, etc. ALL CAUSED BY POLITICS, IN WHICH RELIGION DID NOT PLAY A PART. In fact, during the Middle Ages, medieval kings and queens had trouble getting people to fight their wars because so many of them belonged to pacifist Christian groups - such as the Franciscans, founded by St. Francis of Assisi - one of the few truly benevolent figures in world history.

The bloodiest wars and genocides in human history have not been caused by religion - those don't even come close. They are caused by politics. They are caused by secular reasons... thus, science is more to blame for human bloodshed than religion is. It was science that created the weapons that allowed Stalin, Hitler, and Truman (I'm just throwing him in because of the atomic bomb) to do the things they did. It was short-sighted science, rapidly gaining information, that allowed these things. Even Einstein did not see the consequences of what their pursuit of information had done, until it was too late. Eventually, science will result in the demise of this world - not religion.

The greatest murderers of all time were not motivated by religion - religion keeps people from doing such horrendous things. These men were either simple pagans, or complete atheists (the former being Atilla the Hun and Genghis Khan, the latter being Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin). These were people who did not care for religion, who were motivated by things like power, greed, racial purity, and politics. [And if any pagans read this, I'm not saying your... religion is "simple" - I'm saying their religion was]

And as for Darwin... I'm not bashing him. I'm just saying you shouldn't take his word for gospel - and evolution and creationism are not complete opposites. I subscribe to the "Yeah, things evolved, but God started it all in the first place" theory, to put it very simply. And there is still many things missing from the Theory of Evolution, as can be proved by the conversation in the middle of this thread... go read it.

And anyway, since you people love science so much (and its often the only thing many people have any faith in), answer me this: where did the Big Bang come from? And don't give me some shit about parallel universes - there's less proof of that than there is of the existence of God. The best answer I've ever heard from an atheist was:

Uhhh... I dunno.

The answer we have, which actually is an answer, is:

God did it.

Try giving something in life the benefit of the doubt, hmm?

Grom_Icecream

08-03-2004, 11:42 AM

Heh. If you were looking for credibility, "Uhh.. I dunno", is about equal to "God did it". Its just you see 1 answer as being better because you believe in a god. An atheist would think "Uhh.. I dunno", would be just as strong as "god did it".

There are many things missing from evolutionary theory, and these were found because scientists went poking around. There are great holes is religious theorys, which have just been covered over. Not brought to light as has the evolutionary debate.

The bloodiest wars and genocides in human history have not been caused by religion - those don't even come close. They are caused by politics. They are caused by secular reasons... thus, science is more to blame for human bloodshed than religion is. It was science that created the weapons that allowed Stalin, Hitler, and Truman (I'm just throwing him in because of the atomic bomb) to do the things they did. It was short-sighted science, rapidly gaining information, that allowed these things. Even Einstein did not see the consequences of what their pursuit of information had done, until it was too late. Eventually, science will result in the demise of this world - not religion. Are you serious.... Science is not a thing that can cause death and pain. Science is a method, it is a process, it is a way of gaining information. Basically you just said: People dont kill people, guns kill people. I wonder if that makes any sense to the rest of the world. It is true that science in the wrong hands is dangerous, but if the wrong hands do not have science they will just use something else. You cannot blame the technology, you can only blame the people.

You seem to be missing the fact that science has done so much good for the world as well. Seriously, the life we live would not be even remotely possible without the many technological advances in the past centuries. It has brought something that religion can only do in a very small way. It has brought progress.

GiaDragoness

08-03-2004, 7:42 PM

To be honest, whoever said WW1 was started by politics as well as WW2? You are really more a less half right on that. WW1 was started by 7 serbian terrorists that sought to shoot and kill a (if i remeber correctly, it was either a hungarian or danish) Archduke. The first 6 failed, but the last one succeded. After that, France moved in to help serbia, which was under some pressure from hungaria and it's ally, germany, and eventually involed Great Britan, russia, and finnally, United states. After Germany lost the war, it felt it was an insult to have to pay the damages, and along with italy and japan who got pissed off because htey did'nt really get anything they wanted out of the spoils of WW1, hitler came to power with promises of victory, and reconciliation for it's loses, and japan and italy joined up because they wanted in on the spoils. So the first world war was started by seven idiots for God only knows why, and the second war half because of the result of the first war, and the other half because of hitler, however you want to classify him as.

Anyways, to be fair, Religion does not really start wars. It is people who think someone else calls their religion wrong or something, and they feel they have to defend their religion, is what starts conflict. If people decided to sit down and talk about things in a civilized manner more often, with name calling, or insultatious remarks, or by saying like "you are wrong! repent now or burn in hell!" (that one never yeilds good results, trust me :rolleyes: ) I beleive a wiseman once said "honor, need not be defended"

Just because science cannot explain God, some people beleive that since they can't understand it, or prove it right underneath their eyes, it is wrong. Must everything require proof? Surely you don't need to prove to yourself that you like donuts with chocolate glaze, sprinkles, raspberry cream, or well, ok. You get it. (plus i'm starting to get kinda hugry writting this.) People that refuse to beleive in something just because they cannot prove it by scientific methods, does not mean it does'nt exist, it just means it does'nt play by all of our rules. Christianity requires great faith, as I am sure you have heard a billion times. The reason it requires great faith, is to put yourself up and live for it, even though you may not know it's the right way to go at first. This changes rather soon.

Let's take a quick look at this from another angle: Heaven, eternal life in paradise is the ultimate reward for Christian faith, sounds nice, huh? Do you honestly think you could get such a prize without taking a few chances? No way. The whole idea is that you have to give up a few things for it. Hmmm, giving up things you want in this life, all to get into a place you have no solid evidence exists? does'nt sound too tempting does it? But now, look at it this way: What are you giving up? God only wants people who are willing to give up what they have here in this life (which you won't be able to carry with you when you die anyways, and will be completely worthless to you then, I would like to point out) in exchange for what he has to offer you. From my experience, whenever something has been taken from me, as some sort of result of following God, I either look back and wonder why the hell it was so important to me back then, or i got something even better. This is exactly how God works.

Now, I have lived he christian lifestyle, all while seeing lifestyles of people who did'nt beleive as well. See, when i lived in detroit, I would see all the time, people having too much stress and such, having heart attacks, etc. I would see people all the time thinking that their lives were at point end, or their lives just sucked. I beleive that I can say that I have expereinced just as much hardships as other people have, the difference is, I at least feel safe so that no matter what happens, i'll be safe. It may be a fool's hope to beleive in something you cannot see with your eyes, it may not be, but it is still hope, and that is one thing that can power people through remarkibly hard times. Think about it: Two people, one who knows a divine being is at his/her back, and if anything should go wrong, they would still be fine, and the other person, nervous as hell, because if they slip up, it could be disasterous for them.

It's your choice. Either cling to a life here, in which you would constantly complain, experience setback, experience joy, and eventually die, whether fadding away into non-existance, or suffering in hell forever; or you can live a life with God, changing you life only in respects such as doing the right thing, even if it costs you some things along the way (you'll always get something better in return) and at the end, whether you fade into non-existance, in which case you would have at least had a good life anyways, or rise to paradise. People who beleive in God, have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. People who do not, have mortal, perishible, temporary things to gain, and everything to lose. Why take the chance?

I think it's so funny, yet also so sad that people aren't willing to give christianity a try, because it would be too much work for them. The point is, we are all going to die sonner or latter, whether it be by fading into non-existance, or going to an afterlife, and you guys are saying you would rather fade into non-existance than take a chance and get to the paradise? If you are wrong with following God, you would'nt be any worse off than if you did'nt choose God and you were wrong! That's like saying if you were on a volcanic island, and someone said that the islands we're about to errupt in a few hours, and that they had a plane waiting to take you back to the mainland. If the plane crashed, you would drown, if the plane made it saftly, hurray, your still alive. You would rather sit and die than take a chance to live? From points of view of people who call themselves logical, such like EdvardMunch, that does'nt sound very logical at all.

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

Grom_Icecream

08-04-2004, 6:09 AM

It's your choice. Either cling to a life here, in which you would constantly complain, experience setback, experience joy, and eventually die, whether fadding away into non-existance, or suffering in hell forever; or you can live a life with God, changing you life only in respects such as doing the right thing, even if it costs you some things along the way (you'll always get something better in return) and at the end, whether you fade into non-existance, in which case you would have at least had a good life anyways, or rise to paradise. People who beleive in God, have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. People who do not, have mortal, perishible, temporary things to gain, and everything to lose. Why take the chance?

I think it's so funny, yet also so sad that people aren't willing to give christianity a try, because it would be too much work for them. The point is, we are all going to die sonner or latter, whether it be by fading into non-existance, or going to an afterlife, and you guys are saying you would rather fade into non-existance than take a chance and get to the paradise? If you are wrong with following God, you would'nt be any worse off than if you did'nt choose God and you were wrong! That's like saying if you were on a volcanic island, and someone said that the islands we're about to errupt in a few hours, and that they had a plane waiting to take you back to the mainland. If the plane crashed, you would drown, if the plane made it saftly, hurray, your still alive. You would rather sit and die than take a chance to live? From points of view of people who call themselves logical, such like EdvardMunch, that does'nt sound very logical at all.
Wow. Big post there, and lots of good content. In this part of your argument you seem to assume there are only two choices in this matter. Be a christian, or be an athiest. Now i seriously doubt you think that but thats the way it comes across. You seem to think that not believing in god will make life shit. Ever came across the type of people who don't believe in god, and therefore try to make the most of life? They do everything they want and lead a happy and full life because they believe there is nothing else afterward. You also seem to think that a person who lives his life in an exemplary way and is continually self sacrificing and good, has no hope of getting into "heaven", just because he doesn't believe in god.

Belief in god will not give everyone a happy and fulfilling life either. Nor will it gaurentee avoidence of "hell". I mean seriously, Satanists believe in god. Do they appear happy? Are they going to heaven? There is also the problem with multiple religions. Some religions hold that belief in other ways will bring eternal damnation, and what if they are correct. Poses a small problem doesn't it. What if you have lived your life a good christian and it turns out some group of pagans got it right and there is a vengeful fire god in control? Doesn't bode well. The whole popularity of a religion has little to do with whether it is the correct one.

GiaDragoness

08-04-2004, 12:30 PM

In this part of your argument you seem to assume there are only two choices in this matter. Be a christian, or be an athiest. Now i seriously doubt you think that but thats the way it comes across. Thank you, my point was not sole "christian or athest", really more "religious or athiest". What religion is right and what religion is wrong I don't recall as my main point, so much as people who choose to beleive in something can still lead normal happy lives and all, and when it comes time, at least they made a choice. Kinda like a multiple choice test with only one question. Some religions may be wrong, some may be right, but at least people who make a mark to choose something will have a chance. If not, they will be in the same boat as people who did'nt beleive at all, right?

Belief in god will not give everyone a happy and fulfilling life either. Nor will it gaurentee avoidence of "hell". I mean seriously, Satanists believe in god. Do they appear happy? Are they going to heaven? There is also the problem with multiple religions. Some religions hold that belief in other ways will bring eternal damnation, and what if they are correct. Poses a small problem doesn't it. What if you have lived your life a good christian and it turns out some group of pagans got it right and there is a vengeful fire god in control? Doesn't bode well. The whole popularity of a religion has little to do with whether it is the correct one.Yes, popularity of religion has little to do with whether or not it is true. First of all, Beleiving in Christianity existance, does not make the cut. Accepting that you have made sins, and repenting by the power of Jesus, will. I just though I'd like to point that out. I don't remember using christianity's popularity as a reference of it's level of truth, let alone, refering to the popularity of relgion in general, but it is a good point to bring up. Many religions do conflict together, making it very difficult ot see the right path, right? Religion is clearly different than any factual sciene, because we can't calculate or define it, we have to experience it, and realize it.

Let's take a look at this in this light: God, or Goddess, can see us, and knows our every thought and move, right? They would clearly like for us to follow and praise them, right? There would have to be some kind of power that the deity gives to you, if you truely wanted to follow them. Religion is a funny thing, we have to have some faith in what we beleive, or at least to start, an honest will to want to understand and realize this new way of life, will do. I would encourage anyone, that if they are unsure what to follow, poke around a bit. Everyone thinks they have the right to make an informed disicion, so make one then. Give religions and honest try. If you are unsure of what is real, be honest with yourself. If you truely want to find the right way, then whatever deity is real, will surely show you what is the right way to go. No matter what deity is real, if they want you to follow them, and you are realy willing to give it an honest go, then you can at least count on them for some direction to go their way would'nt you? God(s) may speak in big booming voices, God(s) may not, but they when one speaks to you, there will clearly be a definition, whether it be giving your spidey sense a tug(figuritivly speaking), or a though it your mind you don't know where it comes from, just telling you what you need to do, or whatnot. (note, when something of a gods will comes to you, it considerably wont be a thought like yours, like "eat candy!", more in the manner of thought of your conceice that tells you what is right. If anyone reading this does'nt have one, sorry, i can't help you with that. lol)

:smash: Smashy Smashy! :smash:

XTERMIN8OR1

08-04-2004, 12:44 PM

I think it's so funny, yet also so sad that people aren't willing to give christianity a try, because it would be too much work for them.I do give Christianity a try. In fact; I am a Christian. I am Katholic, to be specific. But I'm just to clear in my thoughts to believe in God, Heaven or anything like that. I am Cristian because I believe in values like Be kind to people. The point is, we are all going to die sonner or latter, whether it be by fading into non-existance, or going to an afterlife, and you guys are saying you would rather fade into non-existance than take a chance and get to the paradise?I realize I will once die. I though hope I will still be on this world for a looong time.
I don't say I would like to fade in non-existance; I say that there probably just ISN'T an afterlive.
By the way: before I was born, I couldn't complain. So, why would I complain if I die and am gone forever? (don't get me wrong; I hope my soul will still exist after I die and that I will still be able to think, but I think that's just impossible).

Montgomery

08-04-2004, 4:56 PM

I believe it is "Catholic"...

And if you do not believe in an afterlife, if you do not believe in the forgiveness of sins, then you are not a Catholic. You may consider yourself a Christian, in a very loose sense of the word, but you are not Catholic.

On that subject, there is only one unforgiveable sin in Catholic dogma. Do you know what that sin is?

To believe you cannot be forgiven.

And I think GiaDragoness hit the nail on the head with:

It's your choice. Either cling to a life here, in which you would constantly complain, experience setback, experience joy, and eventually die, whether fadding away into non-existance, or suffering in hell forever; or you can live a life with God, changing you life only in respects such as doing the right thing, even if it costs you some things along the way (you'll always get something better in return) and at the end, whether you fade into non-existance, in which case you would have at least had a good life anyways, or rise to paradise. People who beleive in God, have nothing to lose, and everything to gain. People who do not, have mortal, perishible, temporary things to gain, and everything to lose. Why take the chance?

And as for the answer "God did it", do you know why its superior? Because its actually an answer. Atheists claim they have all the answers, when in reality, they have none. We don't have all the answers either - but we have some.

Grom_Icecream

08-04-2004, 11:03 PM

Montgomery

08-05-2004, 11:48 AM

Well, its important that we have debate. And even, at least in my opinion, if one person even came close to changing their mind, then all this wasted time would be worth it... and it pretty much is wasted.

And seriously, science is not powerful. People are powerful. The ideas and beliefs of people are powerful. The world is only what we make of it, and how we interpret it. Thats another reason for my beliefs: I believe in people. I may hate them, occasionally, I may want to smack them and run away to the middle of a forest and become a hermit, but I still believe in them. And God believes in people - but science does not. That's why God exists - because He provides for people, and gives meaning. Science is not meaning. For every question science answers, it creates two more! It is just the glimpse of a false meaning - if you only believe in it. Science makes people think they have answers, when all they have are theories, ideas, and false information. How much of todays science will last for the next century? Not much.

As usual, the answer lies not on either extreme, but somewhere in the middle. Not purely religion, not purely science - a combination of both. Seek out this answer, and we will all be closer to the truth, rather than blindly dismissing either side of the arguement.

I'm not bashing science, I'm just saying that science without the proper motivation behind it - including religion, politics, and other interests - is foolish and self-defeating. Pure science is only a recipe for disaster, as is pure religion. One cannot ignore either side.

PS:

And as for World War I being started by politics, it was. Gavrilo Princip and the rest of the Black Hand were motivated by the belief that Austria-Hungary was trying to take over Serbia - and thus they assassinated him. World War Two was started by Hitler's and the National Socialist German Worker's Party's hatred of Britain and France for shaming them at the Treaty of Versailles, in 1919. All politics.

Grom_Icecream

08-09-2004, 12:23 AM

And seriously, science is not powerful. People are powerful. The ideas and beliefs of people are powerful. The world is only what we make of it, and how we interpret it. Thats another reason for my beliefs: I believe in people. I may hate them, occasionally, I may want to smack them and run away to the middle of a forest and become a hermit, but I still believe in them. And God believes in people - but science does not. That's why God exists - because He provides for people, and gives meaning. Science is not meaning. For every question science answers, it creates two more! It is just the glimpse of a false meaning - if you only believe in it. Science makes people think they have answers, when all they have are theories, ideas, and false information. How much of todays science will last for the next century? Not much.
Heh. Science is powerful. If science wasn't powerful little would function, and we wouldn't have half the knowlege we do today. Remember science is a relativly young discipline, and was only really acknowleged as a feild in the late 1600's and early 1700's. Look what it has done in the 350 or so years the process has been around. Looking at recent progress and comparing it to progress in the 1600 years before when religion was the established and dominant social force, you could correctly say science has brung about more changes in 350 years than religion did in 1600 years.

One thing I like about your above paragraph is the line "The ideas and beliefs of people are powerful". Science is both an idea and a belief. Seriously, sort your argument out if you wish to be taken more seriously.

Science is a process dedicated to answering questions. If it creates more questions thats good. It means that we gain more knowlege and begin to understand more things. The more you find out the more intelligent you become. You seem to think religion can answer all the questions and that this is a good thing. If there is nothing left to know or discover the world would be a boring and stagnant place. All progress would halt..... and this would not be accepted.

"how much of todays science will last into the next century"...... Most of it. Heh, science rarely replaces other scientific knowlege, just builds upon it. Maybe you are referring to better methods being introduced. In this case the knowlege is still there it is just not being used. Science makes people believe they have answers because they are perfectly justified in believing this. People trust the process exactly because it is so refined and usually gives correct information.

As usual, the answer lies not on either extreme, but somewhere in the middle. Not purely religion, not purely science - a combination of both. Seek out this answer, and we will all be closer to the truth, rather than blindly dismissing either side of the arguement.
This is perfectly reasonable. Extremes are never a good idea. A good moral subset with decent flexiblity depending on social opinion would be a good way of doing things.

Modred

08-09-2004, 11:48 AM

BTW: I am christian, but I don't believe in God. There are just some stuff in christianity that are true (although there's also much crap to be found in this religion, just like in any other religion).

Um...contradiction anyone? To be a Christian implies believing in Christ, being portrayed as the son of God. If there is no God, then there is no Christ, therefore there are no Christians, therefore you do not exist. :p

If you simply believe in things such as "do good to others," then I suggest you check out Buddhism or Confucianism. They both come in "god-less" varieties and preach similar values.

Montgomery

08-09-2004, 1:08 PM

See, all I try to do with my posts is just push people to the centre. It doesn't work. It's rather futile.

(For a continuation of this argument, see the "If God created Earth and Jesus, then who created God Himself" argument, which we agreed to stop arguing this in)

The thing is, I don't hate science. I respect science. But science should never cloud someone to the point where they cannot even accept the possibility of the existence of God. Agnosticism, even if I hate people who won't make a bloody decision, is far more logical than atheism. Just give it the benefit of the doubt.

In order to summarise my massive amount of points in this thread and the other, take this quote:

The world: starting from movement, becoming, contingency, and the world's order and beauty, one can come to a knowledge of God as the origin and the end of the universe.

As St. Paul says of the Gentiles: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.

And St. Augustine issues this challenge: Question the beauty of the earth, question the beauty of the sea, question the beauty of the air distending and diffusing itself, question the beauty of the sky. . . question all these realities. All respond: "See, we are beautiful." Their beauty is a profession. These beauties are subject to change. Who made them if not the Beautiful One who is not subject to change?

singo

08-09-2004, 3:41 PM

[QUOTE=Montgomery]The thing is, I don't hate science. I respect science. But science should never cloud someone to the point where they cannot even accept the possibility of the existence of God. Agnosticism, even if I hate people who won't make a bloody decision, is far more logical than atheism. Just give it the benefit of the doubt.
QUOTE]

i do give it the benefit of the doubt, whether or god exists or not, living by the values of most religions can only lead to you being a better person. Taking it too seriously will lead to the opposite.

religion is like alcohol. its addictive, a little is good for you, to much will kil you in the end.

and as for the science vs religion argument, lets just say no-one has ever caught god breaking the laws of physics....of course, he may be too clever for them.

Montgomery

08-10-2004, 4:40 PM

Then why don't so many people? Why do so many brush it off?

Markpyro

08-11-2004, 12:00 AM

singo

08-11-2004, 12:09 PM

Then why don't so many people? Why do so many brush it off?

human nature-the good old "im right and everyone else can go piss up a rope" argument

depressing isnt it?

Kahuzal

08-11-2004, 12:56 PM

I could show you a wonderious land a thousand times more depressing, go look outside at what's wrong.

Montgomery

08-11-2004, 1:08 PM

I've seen the world. I've seen places many people haven't even heard of. I know how much the world sucks. That's one of the reasons my faith is so valuable to me: it allows me to see the world, and see its inherent good. God is sometimes one of the few things that gets me through the day.

And yes, that is rather depressing. For instance, try to convince a punk that anarchy is a crock of crap. Try to convince a communist that the dialectic is just something made up to convince them to rebel. Try to convince a hard-core conservative that their policies help to oppress the proletariat. It's hopeless. People are convinced of their own right, and will stop at nothing to defend it. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it can lead to much argument. This is an example of it. Some people are easier to argue with than others, and thats the way things are. Humans are idealistic beings. We can't change that.

Whiteknight

08-11-2004, 4:16 PM

Im also a christian and im non denominational-

this means i believe in the Bible and its teachings which explain obviously that there is a god, to put it very very very briefly.

Whats cool is that the christian faith is the only faith based on a god that is loving and caring to his people.

*yay fenguin*
Yes, a loving and caring god that kills off all of his people with a flood, casts the humans out of eden because of one little mistake, letting Isaac almost kill his son, having the israelites vanquish the villages, Sampson killing many people, etc?

Montgomery

08-11-2004, 4:26 PM

Notice that all those things happened before the birth of Christ. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to save it. Everything before that were previous attempts. They didn't work, mostly because of the falacies of humans on which they depended. So He gave us Christ.

GiaDragoness

08-13-2004, 11:05 AM

Meh. This is a pretty useless argument. I mean, im not trying to change anyones ideals. I just don't like people assuming that I am going to burn in hell, or fade away to nothing, while they will live blissfully in a supposed heaven. That is by far the biggest thing that annoys me about religion. I always get the feeling religious people feel sorry for me or something because I do not share their "enlightened" state of mind. Trust me, I know a lot of religious people, and sometimes they can act a little patronising.Ha, trust me, I myself am a christian, and even that does'nt seem to get me out of religous persecution. My whole town is this big real-life-day representation of the pharisees in the new testiment. Always following everything down to the letter of the law. There is even this like, all secretive council of the church members that can get the whole town to shun, and cast out anyone they want withen like 2 days time. God I am so sick of this place. I myself have been shunned and biased against more times than i can remember, all for not "conforming" to their "version of the truth" of christianity. Probably the only reason i'm still even here, letalone, even alive, is because i'm very strong minded. And of course, because my own damn father is on the council, which makes alot of tension between us at times. So, yeah, when people think they are right, there is no telling how far they will go to try and prove it. I think it's called arrogance, ego, etc. take your pick. I think everyone has a bit of this in them. Some just show it more than others.

Yes, a loving and caring god that kills off all of his people with a flood, casts the humans out of eden because of one little mistake, letting Isaac almost kill his son, having the israelites vanquish the villages, Sampson killing many people, etc? Might i point out that God really only did things like this when his chosen people disobeyed him? It may have been more severe back then yes, but think about it: If you had stuff like pillars of cloud and fire, leading your way, and an entire sea being lifted up right before your eyes, would'nt this prove that God existed, and that he meant business? Why the heck would the isrealites go and make idols of golden cows and such like that anyways despite of things like mana falling from heaven every morning and such? It only makes one wonder. So yes whiteknight, God punished people more severely back then for disobeying him because the evidence was RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF