TvZ -- Mutas to Lurk

[Freshyn]

Lately in my TvZ games this has been the overriding theme. Muta harass to lurker. Once I scan mutas I will get bunker + 1-2 turrets in min line, pump rines and tech to irrad. Then lurks come and my rines dont do so well unless I bunker. If I bunker, Zerg takes map and I end up facing guards or ultras or whatever Zerg decides to do with 4 geyser.
I have tried getting a couple ds and harassing the expansions, but the left over muta plus 1-2 lurk usually keeps me from doing much dmg. When I try to come out, I usually have less tanks than I should have and am forced to retreat from lurkers.
Anything that can be done to help the situation? Also, it usually isnt 6-9 muta, but 12-15 +. If I start with a 3 rax hard rush, I can usually do significant dmg to a muta first user, but if they dont go mutas and instead lurks, im SOL.

[Jorix]

you seem to have a firm grasp of how tvz plays out, i think the only thing you can do is simply work on your marine vs lurker micro perhaps, and try to take them out of play...

[Hayley]

3rax + vessel is the correct way to play vs muta, it allows you to defend your base while pressuring the zerg. This means it will be easier to scout lurkers, and since they'll only have 2 geysers, that means an end to the muta, so you can safely get a few tanks; just micro your M&M to hold them back until tanks arrive, then you can expo safely. After that, it's just standard TvZ :P

[Darko]

Getting +1 armour for your infantry also couldn't hurt if you're having trouble keeping your marines alive until you get tanks into play.

[theResse]

Its very micro dependent. Often times I can cripple there force so that it becomes really easy, other times Ill make a tiny mistake that will ruin me. I just learned today to ALWAYS bring vessel out with your initial mnm to kill expos. Some guy had his 3 lurkers on hold position and when I walked over it he released it and I got owned. You can bunker outside your expo to while you get tanks and micro your mnm + vessel.

[Twitt]

Just reiterating the point, Muta harass -> Lurk is the standard ZvT. If you scout spire first, add the 3rd rax, don't add the machine shop on your factory and go straight for vessels. If you have an ebay, +1 attack first. Basically then, once you have enough mm built up, you can move out and put pressure on him, generally, he's just morphing a few lurks in at this time. If he went straight from muta harass to lurks hes only got 6-8 mutas anyways, so ur bunk + turret and any units that just came out of the rax will easily fend off those mutas. Once you scout hes switched to lurks, add the machine shop, if you killed the mutas during this time, you can get a dship and cliff harass. Your fear then is scourge, if you didnt kill the mutas, ur best place to drop is in mineral lines then, make sure to scan to see if he has a lurk in his min lines though.

If you want, upload some reps and I could do some RWA's for you, so you have a bit of a tutorial to follow.

[Freshyn]

Okay, I'll try to pull some reps together. I'm one of those people who only saves reps of victories :). So I'll check and see what I have, and save the next one where I lose to muta->lurk.


edit: here is a rep of a guy going muta first, doesnt work tho.

[NineBall]

I think its better to see reps of your loses then you can see what you did wrong

[Staind]

Twitt:

No +1 attack, armor is better against muta, sunken and lurker. :P

[Hayley]

+1 attack is better vs lurkers if you are boxer ;)

[Basan]

I know any1 didn't even mention this ('cause it's so basic), but it doesn't hurt 2 have at least 1 Comsat Station hotkeyed 2 spoil traps (quick scan, aim)... including burrowed Hydras n' 'Lings.
I know I did it when I was Zergie at their 1st mission in vanilla SC. ;)

[Jorix]

or frode ^^

[Basan]

or frode ^^

Wth!?! What do u mean?

[Hayley]

Frode is/was a good terran player that hung out with us on east :P, he's john_dough on blizzforums. Unfortunately he moved in with some friend and may be gone for a year or so T_T

[Jorix]

im lagging pretty bad on wb, i meant to post it right after hayleys post but it took forever to send...read it like this:

+1 attack is better vs lurkers if you are boxer

or frode ^^

frode=TF-Sasuke, and he likes to get +1 weps first tvz

[okplayer]

newbs should get armor, gosus get attack

[Basan]

Jorix & Hayley,

Gotcha. I won't go much 2 B.net since I mostly do it a work (office or construction sites office's)! So...

OkPlayer,

Wtf is gosu anyway!?! I 'ear' u lot (of ppl) 2 say it 2 many often... nevermind. *Yawn... Goes 2 translating web pages 2 see 4 himself* :P

[Sambo83]

If you don't know what it means, it isn't you, so get +1 armor. :)

[Basan]

If you don't know what it means, it isn't you, so get +1 armor.

Lol! Or not. :P

But usually I get weapons 1st. :devil:

Merge add: I'm not an English mother tongue folk... so it's natural I won't get it in the 1st place! Like the meh thingy... :P

[okplayer]

gosu means you are really good at starcraft. sambo said it perfectly, you need armor.

[Basan]

Lol! *Laughs, while sharpens it's Scythe 2 offer it through the sharp edge...*

I'll leave it be... 4 now. :P

[Twitt]

Not sure what in the world would make you think attack is better vs sunkens than armor. Armor makes each rine take an additional shot, meaning, they gain 50% percent more defense vs sunks. Attack only gives them 16% more damage. --;

If your micro isnt amazing, armor is better vs lurks for the same reason. Armor is only a good choice vs mutas when he gets +1 on them, otherwise, it's a dumb choice as it doesn't keep your marines alive any longer.

[Hayley]

Wouldn't armor be useful against muta's splash though?

[Jorix]

it gets healed fast enough i dont think it really matters a whole lot

[Sambo83]

People have different opinions on it Hayley. Some people think armor is better vs muta because of splah reduction, others seem to think attack does more for you since they fly away so quick and don't usually engage marines. I've been playing a ton of ZvT lately, and personally I'm far more scared of +1 armor in every situation.

[Hayley]

I've been thinking a little about it, and concluded that armor is in fact better :P. If Zerg is building a bunch of muta, then they're going to get +1 attack for them, and +1 armor is very much needed vs 1-0 muta. If the zerg doesn't do that, then they'll switch to lurkers, in which case armor is better anyways~ :)

[theResse]

Attack is better because you can kill lurks/mutas faster before you have to pull away from lurkers burrowing. All depends tho, if I know Ill be fighting lurkers in small groups then Id probably get armour.

[Jorix]

wouldnt weapons be better against small amounts of lurkers, and armor against larger amounts? =/

[Hayley]

No, because against larger amounts all of your M&M will die so fast that it won't matter, you just need to retreat :P

[theResse]

No. In large numbers lurkers will rip apart marines trying to fight them with or without armour. Thats why you are forced to stim and run from them. Vs small ammounts where you fight the lurkers the armour helps keep your rines alive as you spread and fire.

[Jorix]

and armor helps with that, but weapons dont =P

[theResse]

Attack kills more before you have to retreat :)

[Jorix]

so how about this

stim>armor>weapons ^^

[okplayer]

Not sure what in the world would make you think attack is better vs sunkens than armor. Armor makes each rine take an additional shot, meaning, they gain 50% percent more defense vs sunks. Attack only gives them 16% more damage. --;

If your micro isnt amazing, armor is better vs lurks for the same reason. Armor is only a good choice vs mutas when he gets +1 on them, otherwise, it's a dumb choice as it doesn't keep your marines alive any longer.no, if you stim its like getting +2 weapons. also, weapons upgrade is cheaper. ALSO, the taking less hits thing against sunkens doesn't really matter because medics will heal a few times giving it enough to they will take 3 hits.

but it really doesn't matter. if you are going to fast upgrade, they are both pretty good.

[Basan]

Beat me 2 it again... OkPlayer got there 1st with this last post. :P

Merge add: I'd only add what's the use 4 the extra armor bit vs. a Sunken if the Medics are there? Weapons would do better...

[Hayley]

The idea is to go fast 3rax, so you won't have enough medics to cover all of your marines; the +1 armor is like a medic almost :)

[Basan]

The idea is to go fast 3rax, so you won't have enough medics to cover all of your marines; the +1 armor is like a medic almost
Oh, if u put it this way... but then again what difference would do an extra hit from a Sunken do in this case? Prolong the life of ur Marines a bit longer? A retreat is an option as said... 2 heal 'Rines and gett'em back!?! That's what I'd do... :poke:
If not u'll only gain advantage if ur numbers are (really) massed over the number of Sunkens u're 2 face. :P
I believe that with weapons upg.u'll do better if u retreat 4 healing n' get back soon.

[Sambo83]

Basan, you've never seen +1 armor rines fighting sunks have you? It isn't fun when I'm the zerg.

[Basan]

you've never seen +1 armor rines fighting sunks have you? It isn't fun when I'm the zerg.
Yup, I've seen'em. But it was a long time ago... n' if I recall it correctly, the 'Rine would have only a few secs. while the Sunken didn't get that 3rd fatal stab. So, 2 me the Medic would do a better effect while the 'Rines get extra amount of damage dealt by the weapons upg.Not 2 mention the Stims... *Meh*

If I'm dead wrong in the water, gimme a boost up 2 get on2 the ground. *Duh*

[Hayley]

The marines might only get a few extra seconds, but when they're stimmed, it's a significant advantage, as that's like an extra 30 damage per rine :)

[Basan]

Forgot about it. Sorry... U may be right on the Stims complementing the attack, even without the weapons upgrade! Medics heal it's effects almost instantly.
But I'll test it when I can... 2 compare the upgrades effects when vsing Sunkens.
Against Lurkers I really advise the armor upg., 'cause of their damage spread jollies. Even be4 pullin' Comsat (out of the hat) u'd get a few free hits upon the 'Rine (& Medics) team, if the Lurkers are well spread around (plus if they're in considerable numbers, like said earlier).
I'd prefer the 'Rines , 'Bats n' Medics combo 2 the 1 discussed here. But then again this last 1 would take much more time (n' resources) 2 pump out.

[thefazant]

armor really is inferior to attack in most situations, mainly cuz youre meds wont have time to bring youre rines up to 40 dmg after they stimmed, sunks and lurks will still kill in 2 shots this way.

attack is A LOT better vs mutas too

[okplayer]

+1 armor and +1 attack are both good against sunkens and lurkers

[thefazant]

but attack is better

[okplayer]

right now i have 1 more post than you, so im better

okplayer
Posts: 34

thefazant
Posts: 33

[Hayley]

I have more posts than both of you combined, so hah ! :)

[Staind]

No, armor for marines is better against sunkens and mutalisks.


Source:

Against sunkens it allows marine to get killed in one/two more shot because medic can heal it fast enough so it doesn't die.

Against mutalisks this research was done by Tsunami.

[thefazant]

nah, tsunami did it against pure mutaling, not harass style muta.
+1 is better against harass style, and i think a very close call against +1 mass muta.
against sunks, as i said, youre rines wont be at 40 hp, but at 30, so it doesnt help much either
you will almost always face more then 2 lurks, so i dont see it helping there much.
the only thing i can think of is against lurks, when either you drop him or he drops you, cuz the lurks will be spread in that situation, and armor will help, but attack will let you do more dmg when you drop.

[Staind]

No, he did it against pure muta.

Unless the Zerg focus fires on each sunken the nit's good.

[Jorix]

+1 weapons is all-around better, unless you suck at micro vs lurks. kthx, thats it.

[Staind]

No, +1 armor is better. Why do you think everyone gets it first?

[okplayer]

lol staind is wrong. everyone certainly does not get armor first.

[sureilldoit]

in tvz, mass carriers = instant win

[Sambo83]

+1 armor is all around better, unless you suck at micro vs lurks. kthx, thats it.

[okplayer]

you just got it backwards sambo. +1 attack is better unless you suck at micro against lurks.

[Sambo83]

No. I agree with staind. I was just making fun of jorix. It only makes sense that increasing your attack time against lurks/sunks by 50% makes more sense than increasing your attack power by 1.

Fazant haven't you ever seen people stim, wait a second for the medics to heal, and then run in?

And with muta splash, of course armor is better, that's a duh. The only thing I can see is as fazant said, harass style muta where the muta user does not engage the marines, attack will help you pick them off faster as they run away. But in the scenario where marines are fighting mutalisks, armor is better.

[theResse]

It all depends on what your trying to do, as I've said before.

[Jorix]

armor helps, weapons helps more. armor only helps in certain situations, whereas weapons helps in almost every.

[Hayley]

But in the situations that armor helps, it helps a lot more than weapons :)

[Sambo83]

Which happen to be 90% of the ZvT situations.

[thefazant]

no, really, weapons is better, thats just a fact, does anyone of you guys even play tvz?
i tried some armor first strats cuz my rine micro really sucks ass, but it helps almost nothing against lurks, cuz there will almost always be more then 2 lurks firing at youre rines.
it doesnt help much against sunkens either, cuz a zerg wont let you break his sunk line, and cuz of sunks high armor, attack helps A LOT against them, a 20% dmg increase, while armor gives a 33% dmg increase, BUT you have to wait for youre medics to heal all youre rines, THEN put youre medics in front to take first sunk dmg, and THEN move youre rines in.
this is off course impossible and youre stim will have stopped working after you kill the first few sunks and you will be forced to stim again.
against flanks armor is also worse, cuz you can only stim when you see his units, and youre medics will not have time to heal you, so you still die in 2 lurk shots.
against mass mutas, a strat that will ONLY work if you fuck up as terran, cuz it will NEVER work if you see it coming and 3 rax, maybe even bunk at ramp, i think weapon is still better then armor, but just cuz i read that on tl.net, personally i think they are pretty equal, i think if you go +1 weapon or armor against pure mutas, youve won, simple as that.
its obvious better against muta harass.

really, believe me, weapon is simply superior to armor, only reason people think armor is better is cuz is some antilurk theory craft that DOES not work in a real game

[Basan]

Ah, afterall weapons is better in most ocasions. :)
Even being rusty at it (SC), I still remember somethin' out. :P

[sureilldoit]

i have an idea... why dont we compromise and have u terran players not upgrade either?

[Basan]

i have an idea... why dont we compromise and have u terran players not upgrade either?

Yeah, right... I'll take that n' a couple of those Abs devices at TV Shop. :chair:

[thefazant]

Yeah, right... I'll take that n' a couple of those Abs devices at TV Shop. :chair:are you mentally challenged or something?

[Basan]

Nope. Just joking... but if u didn't get it, that'd make u the I.Q. challenged here. :poke:


Add: Piece of intel, I'm not even a main 'Terraneer' player, if ya'd like 2 know... :P

[okplayer]

if lurkers didn't do that 'linear splash' or whatever its called, armor would be really good, but since there will be several lurkers crossing up your marines, armor doesn't do that much.

[thefazant]

i understood it was a joke, the joke itself was just so shitty

[stev2711]

how much marines will it take to kill 1 lurker (without medics) ?

[Sambo83]

one..

[Darko]

one..

I think that's the sign that lurkers need to be buffed. I think 175 hp and 40 damage should do it. :p

[Basan]

i understood it was a joke, the joke itself was just so shitty

Don't laugh then... :P *Yawn, or do somethin' interesting like watching the linolium curl*


Stev2711,
I think that's the sign that lurkers need to be buffed. I think 175 hp and 40 damage should do it. :p

I'm not sure but I think that what he means is just 4 u 2 go with somethin' else... like a Tank (siege evolved) with Comsat Sweep in front.

[okplayer]

basan dont give advice.

if you have really good micro, one marine can kill a lurker.

[thefazant]

you dont even have to have good micro, its pretty easy once you have the timing of the spikes down

[okplayer]

anyone that has the timing of the spikes down most likely has good micro

[thefazant]

if you consider that good micro, it takes 2-4 tries to figure the timing out, and this counts for everyone.

[okplayer]

i think it would take someone like basan alot more than 2-4 tries

[thefazant]

well, its hard to hold a mouse if youre as retarded as basan

[Hayley]

Why don't you just leave him alone?

[okplayer]

:P he started it:P:P:P

[stev2711]

One marine for one lurker ? Hmmm...never seen it before.....anyone got a replay on that ?

[Basan]

Sorry 2 all if I don't know the meaning of buffed... wtf, according 2 Babelfish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/) it means shine stuff up (in my mother tongue)!?!
Only applied if he (Darko) meant 2 bullet shine the Lurk' up! Oh... *Lol*

I know that dancin' the Marine in front of the Lurker does the job, but u surely won't do it 'cause u usually have other units by then (time when opponent gets Lurks), Like Vults or Tanks. *Rolf* :poke:

Add: Btw, tks Hayley. I'm kinda used 2 be missunderstood anyway.

[Jorix]

to 'buff' something means to improve it...'buffing' your car or whatever makes it look better

[Sambo83]

To anyone who couldn't figure it out, aka Basan and Jorix, he was using the term buff in the colloquial sense.... if someone is buff that means they are strong or look strong. So to buff the lurker would be making the lurker stronger.

Not very good english or usage, but that's what he meant.

[Jorix]

i understood him. making a lurker stronger would improve it, no? so, i was right. a buff (noun) can be any improvement, not just 'buff' (adjective) as in strong.

[poof]

i am sorry, i cant understand a thing basan ever says. i dont know if thats good or bad, but there you have it.

[Basan]

Finally got it. He (Darko) meant 2 say that Lurks sould never be left alone without backup... *Meh anyway*

Tks Sambo & Jorix 4 the English brushin' up at the buff definition.

i am sorry, i cant understand a thing basan ever says. i dont know if thats good or bad, but there you have it.Poof,
I'm not worried... are u? ;)

[okplayer]

basan how *GRIN* r :) u doing?:rolleyes:

:_owned:

[poof]

i'M :cool: sre basan'' is doin' fine;) but quite 2 much 4 my taste, *meh, whatever, :devil:, I'll lve* im not worried, dont be a h8er bc' im reppin':worship:

Add: :) *sigh, wuteva, its over* medics pwn tvp.

[sureilldoit]

:bananaroc :banana::bananaroc :banana:

yeah

[Basan]

To Poof & OkPlayer,

None taken. I was kind ticked off last Friday (27/08/2004), so if u stirred up things (that weren't much important or related 2 the debate), I'd reply nasty. :lame:
I'm not the hater type... sorry if it was the impression it got through! ;)
Nex time, quote the thing n' ask what I meant in it. Or PM me about the same reason... :)

Add: We'd better quit it (p... each others around), this thread is startin' to be a flash point without a reason... :o
N' Medics are a must on Terran Infantry stormin' enemy defenses, agreed on that! But I think 2 already've said it before... :D

[poof]

I never said no offense meant. I meant to flame you.

[okplayer]

basan try to talk without all the smileys and underlines and '...'s. it makes it hard to understand you.

[Basan]

basan try to talk without all the smileys and underlines and '...'s. it makes it hard to understand you.Underlines!?! What underlines? If u refer 2 the U (underline) command button, I rarely use it. Maybe when I add / edit somethin' 2 my posts. Or want somethin' 2 stand out of the reamining text.

The smillies... I'm tryin' 2 cut down on the smillies. I've even joined the A.S.A. (Anonymous Smillies Addicts) tryin 2 stop, but no can do. I'm hopeless!

The ellipses ("..." as u said it) are a way 2 express myself... so u'll still see'em around my posts.

Altough u may've never heard it, it's called proper pointing, expressing (like using emoticons 4 example), etc. So I'll use it, like the Cap letter at the start of sentences or in folks nicks or names. :P

Edit add: Better luck next time... :devil:

[TF-Sasuke]

listen to prodigy, there's no point in getting early armor if you aren't doing some kind of early attack strat with a bunch of marines like 3 rax marines or 2 rax marines then late tank push. vs a 2 hatch muta user get weapons because you are going to need them later. your weapons upgrades gets delayed a lot if you use only 1 e-bay and if zerg sees that and gets fast ultras you'll have a hard time killing anything.

[Basan]

Agreed, TF-Sasuke. It was majorly discussed in early thread begginin'... ;)

[rpf289]

O_o ten pages of arguing...i think whether u upgrade armor or weapons depends entirely on the players opinion, skill level, plan at the time, and luck. O_Ob