Fast Expand in ZvZ

[Aqo]

Side Note: Am I the only one interested in checking various aspects of the game even if they were already explored earlier? I don't see anyone else making threads >.>

I was doing a lot of ZvZ lately and learned that, contrary to what I used to believe, fast expand on ZvZ is actually possible. But it depends on so many variables that I never know when to do it. o.0

Here are some short replays (well it's ZvZ) where you can see all sorts of either FEing or not FEing on ZvZ:

First game on iCCup, I ruined some guy's 8-0 when I went FE and got away with it:
0130 AqoZ YohwakinZ.rep (http://kupax.com/files/4177_ie6uy/0130%20AqoZ%20YohwakinZ.rep)
Around the 7th minute he pretty much gave up and we just started chatting while microing our mutas so no real point watching beyond that. His micro totally owned mine. I've no clue how but he always killed my mutas.

What I learned this game is that, if Zerg doesn't attack another Zerg's FE with lings real early, it becomes very easy to defend it with zerg turrets and basically the FEing Zerg has a 100% guaranteed win even if he fucks up.
Problem is, how do you know he's not going to take it down early with lings? You can't rely on your opponent making a mistake like that.

Second game: 0131 KaKaShIZ AqoZ.rep (http://kupax.com/files/4178_triha/0131%20KaKaShIZ%20AqoZ.rep)
That is exactly what happens here. He sees me FEing, rushes lings. Crappy building placement also hurt me here, but the real problem was that I couldn't defend my FE.
The difference between this game and the earlier one is that here I got a much earlier gas and lair, as opposed to relying on spores, so my mineral count was a lot lower and did not allow me to produce lings. Does that mean I should delay mutas and get spores if I'm going for FE?

Third game was on US West, he went Random so I didn't know what to expect for. 0141 iLuVggyOZ AqoZ.rep (http://kupax.com/files/4179_3jtma/0141%20iLuVggyOZ%20AqoZ.rep)
This time, I don't FE, and he does, but I'm unable to kill him with lings because his ling count is clearly going to be sufficient to defend according to my overlord scout. I also can't get mutalisks much faster than him, and the moment he gets a second gas it's going to be all over for me. So I get hydralisks and kill his FE while retaining my ability to defend myself. Upgraded hydras own.

So... what should a Z do, in ZvZ? Obviously, you have to scout your opponent and react to what he's doing, but since there are so many different options for both you and him on how to react to each other, and the fact that in ZvZ you can just float your overlords for most of the game and see everything that the other player is doing, doing a "surprise" tactic won't work, and yet it looks like FE is all about surprise - it's a surprise if it gets up, and it's a surprise if it gets killed. So what is the correct answer? Is ZvZ really all about luck or are there certain guidelines you can follow to know that you're playing correctly?

[mranderson]

Look at Ahzz's Ultimate Zerg Guide :P
He basically says experience though, but if it's a large 4 player map fe is "safer" because he has less chances of finding it and getting there.

It's all about not making the first mistake
:) Very nice last game. I was sitting there thinking "o shit Aqo, push out wiht your hydras and just put two spores at your main :o" Than you did :)
Refer to Ahzz's guide though unless you already have.

[Aqo]

Ahzz PvZs instead of ZvZing though. His guide mostly gives general guidelines for as far as playing Z goes, I want to get more into specifics.
For instance, according to Ahzz I have to get fast gas, which I used to think is true, but it looks like this has a lot of variations. For instance, you can slow down enemy mutas with lings pressure, so you can get away with later gas and have a stronger mineral economy. I'm actually starting to think that it's better to FE/late gas/hydra in ZvZ now.
Or you can take the example of 'He expands - You expand', I think this is flawed because it means you're getting a later expansion and thus won't be able to keep up. Assuming both players are equally skilled, you're just putting yourself at a disadvantage like this. It would be better to quickly get units to kill his expansion. The fact that he's forced to defend both his main and expansion hurts his mobility a lot, and if he chooses to get sunkens in his main it just gives you extra ling difference and makes it even easier to take down his FE.

[Ahzz]

My ZvZ Is still better than 99% of iccup even if I pvz. I used to zvz for many years you know.

the fast gas is usually a norm, but not necessarily true for every case.

lets see your post now:

Ahzz PvZs instead of ZvZing though. His guide mostly gives general guidelines for as far as playing Z goes, I want to get more into specifics.
like I said in my guide, as far as specifics go, its mostly about experience. your opponent can play in so many ways and can do so many tricks that thinking of specifics wont help you much.

For instance, according to Ahzz I have to get fast gas, which I used to think is true, but it looks like this has a lot of variations. For instance, you can slow down enemy mutas with lings pressure, so you can get away with later gas and have a stronger mineral economy.
And it is true too that in general you need fast gas. in your case of 'getting slower gas for better eco and ling pressure' doesnt make sense at all, and will just suck horribly. lets see why:
lings with speed are not only much faster, they're also 1.5 times stronger if you have the appropriate micro. Also, if you spend your time making lings instead of drones, what 'economical advantage' are you talking about then? if you only use 1 hatch for lings, he will have speed faster, more lings, and a much faster muta tech as well. thus your logic over here proved retarded
and not only that. if you want to slow down another zergs spire who REALLY wants fast spire, how is your build going to help at all? first off, slow lings/slow speedlings means you cant do anything pretty much. secondly, if he sunkens up properly his spire is safe and it will still be on time. and third, once again, if you keep making enough lings to slow his spire, you lost your economical advantage you were talking about

I'm actually starting to think that it's better to FE/late gas/hydra in ZvZ now.
9 pool and overpool are the most common zvz builds by FAR, and both of them will destroy your fast expo build. even if the rush distances is long if he really wants to kill ur exp.
besides, making hydras like this is just asking for lose. Most of the time their mutaling build alone will be able to beat you, but not only that, if they see you going mass hydra which is real ez cuz mutas see everything, he can just start lurker tech and get their expansion running up easy and fine, and by the time you'd have enough hydras to move out he'd already have 6 lurkers at your choke which will prevent you from moving out.
so much for the hydra build.

yes, a slight bit exaggerated, but the fact that hydra build is pathetically weak doesn't change. you only make hydras if its best for the situation, and in this case, its not.

Or you can take the example of 'He expands - You expand', I think this is flawed because it means you're getting a later expansion and thus won't be able to keep up.
no. you make your expansion if you have extra 300 minerals, but if he expands and you dont, you save minerals so you can get as quick expo as possible.

and this knowledge is not specifics, but pretty much BASICS of a higher level zvz.


And trust me before you start a huge debate just because I dont zvz anymore, I've played a few zvz's against random players, and I still eat B-/B zergs for breakfeast in zvz.

[Aqo]

I'm not saying your ZvZ is bad just saying that most of what you say about ZvZ is "it's mostly about experience" and that isn't very specific. When I said slower gas I didn't mean skipping extractor and not getting ling speed, that is like a must in ZvZ, but I meant more like getting ling speed before lair and not mining gas with 3 drones for a while for the extra mins.

i.e. lets say, for instance, that I go overpool and only mine 100 gas, get ling speed, then just a few more drones and keep mining minerals with 12 of them while producing a ton of lings. I'll have money for expand at that point, and money to get spores before his mutas can come to my base. Also, since he'll see my ling defense and I'll see how's he responding to it, I'll be able to know when to get 3 extra drones at some point to mine gas too. So eventually I'll lose like 100-150 gas but secure an expansion earlier than my opponent, isn't that possible?
That way, because of the extra minerals, I'll have spores in my base while he won't, and I'll have a second gas earlier, so I'll be able to catch up with my mutas and retain a better defense from earlier on.

What I don't understand is just that on one hand you say that you shouldn't FE in ZvZ because he'll just kill it, but if my opponent FEs I shouldn't kill it but counter with my own expand. How comes? How comes that if he does the same thing as me my response to him should be different than his to what I'm doing.

[Ahzz]

you're talking about expanding when my counter is to expand yourself. however, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT FAST EXPANSION. didn't your topic say that too? well?

besides you talk as if you have money for everything because your 3 drones dont mine for 30 seconds.

if you fast expand you need to build an extra sunk 50% of the time, thats -1 drone and 175 minerals. you also need to but spore colony to both bases = -3 drones all together and 525 minerals. not only that, but you need to be sure he doesnt get too many lings compared to you, and you will also get slower mutas. even if you have faster gas, you wont do anything with it for a while because at that point mineral income is far more important. by then he will have more mutas, and he will have his own exp coming, he will be safer, he will have better eco, and whatever else.

well, its not like you cant do it, but you make it sound as if its some imba build or something which it is not. you can do it, but its not like your enemy will be behind just because he does not do it.

[Aqo]

When I said fast expand I meant fast as in before spire, not the same fast like in ZvP or ZvT where it's before pool.

[Ahzz]

thats not a fast expand then, its regular expanding.

in which case, my guide is once again correct.

if you have extra 300 min you expo, but if you dont and he expoes, you save up asap

gg?

[Aqo]

Wait so, I should never build the second hatch in my main - I should always expo normally? There's absolutely no risk in this (assuming I scouted him and know his ling count etc)?

[Ahzz]

I like building my second hatch to main unless I have a reason to do otherwise. That way I am safer, I have better mineral income by far, and I can add pressure to him better..

but if you are leading, then taking your natural instead is fine.

besides, you can often start second hatchery to your main very soon after lair/before lair (depends) if you dont make useless lings

[GroG]

The way I look at it:

If your opponent expands, you have 2 options: Either damage them or expand yourself. To damage them, you either need to kill drones so he can't macro more of an army then yourself, or pick off his units. If you opt to damage them, it's more "fight or die" since if you fail to set them back or win right there, you almost always lose. If you match their expansion with your own, you are playing "safe" and you are both trading off a small window of difference (you have more units earlier for a bit, and later on the opponent will have a window of time with more units). You could also just have a faster muta tech (match his exp with fast tech instead of your own exp), use the faster mutas to maintain map control and attempt to have a late expand yourself - but if your opponent is good with timing and stuff, he'll end up with more mutas (a window of time, again) around the time your exp is done warping and will probably overrun you while spore/sunkens are morphing - that is, unless you damaged him with muta harass.

Ling speed is great. The problem is that if they make a wall of lings speed doesn't matter much unless you break the wall. Now if they don't make a wall, you can just run around and be gay killing random lone units, drones, buildings, etc. Most smart players will make a wall or just run their lings around with your lings so you can't do much.

If you FE and they 9 pool, I'd say it should almost always be GG. Your opponent is going to have lings so much faster than you and can pretty much dictate positioning in the battle at your natural since you MUST save your hatchery or be very far behind. That way, they can run around and damage the hat and you have to come and save it. If they are good at reinforcing, they can just keep you on the defensive while reinforcing with lings out of 2 hat and kill the hatchery or possibly just run up your ramp and cause havoc there (which would be even worse if they got speedlings).

Since 9 pool is standard ZvZ, this pretty much means FE sucks. Now, if you are playing someone who isn't very good, 9 pool won't matter since they won't pressure you.