Russia and Georgia at War

[Faiien]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39611000/gif/_39611619_russia_map203.gif

http://www.fronteraresources.com/images/georgiamaps/georgia.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBZgX-QHq6A
If you guys have not heard lately in the news, Russia and Georgia have gone to war with each other because of the region of South Ossetia. Do you guys think that war is an effective way to achieve a goal? Shouldn't diplomacy and words be enough?

[Giggilyomeromicon]

Diplomacy is nice and all, but when it comes to ethnic cleansing it isn't always the best answer.

[ZeratulStukov]

Do you guys think that war is an effective way to achieve a goal?

It may be, but it's definitely not the one I'd reccomend.

Shouldn't diplomacy and words be enough?

Yes. Yes they should.

Here (http://english.hotnews.ro/stiri-top_news-3876574-russia-georgia-south-ossetia-involve-armed-conflict.htm)'s what I found while searching on Google.

Russian aircraft bombed on Friday morning targets on Georgian soil, after the Georgian soldiers attacked earlier in the morning the Russian peacekeeping troops.

So, apparently, it's Georgia's fault, unless I'm wrong.

[Skullflower]

Diplomacy is nice and all, but when it comes to ethnic cleansing it isn't always the best answer.

What the fuck are you talking about?

[Giggilyomeromicon]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Georgia was kind of killing civilians en mass in the rebelling province. In that kind of scenario simply saying "hey guy, stop" doesn't work terribly well.

Personally, I find it amusing that the United States is on Georgia's side in this conflict. DEMOCRACY!

[DarkMirror]

Yay for neo-nazis! I bet america is going "Hey, like, last time, we just didnt give a shit, and then them damn japs came and kicked the shit out of us! Lets be on the winning side this time!"

[Skullflower]

I dont think that really qualifies as ethnic cleansing.

Personally, I find it amusing that the United States is on Georgia's side in this conflict. DEMOCRACY!
Apparently theres an oil pipeline around there.

[Modred]

Russia claims that Georgia attacked its peacekeepers. Georgia claims that Russia is bombing civilian targets outside of South Ossetia. And local militias in South Ossetia want to secede, violently if necessary, from Georgia.

I find Mededev's claim that his duty is to protect Russian citizens wherever they are a bit suspicious. It sounds more like an excuse to mobilize and take advantage of local political strife, than anything else.

Also, I've not heard anything about ethnic cleansing, so I'm skeptical of your claim, Giggly.

[Giggilyomeromicon]

I dont think that really qualifies as ethnic cleansing.

Killing around 40,000 citizens of your own country who live in the same area and are mostly of Russian descent isn't ethnic cleansing? I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what Georgia was doing, and I'm pretty damn sure that's what ethnic cleansing is.

[Skullflower]

Killing around 40,000 citizens of your own country who live in the same area and are mostly of Russian descent isn't ethnic cleansing? I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what Georgia was doing, and I'm pretty damn sure that's what ethnic cleansing is.

40,000 people is like 1/2 the population of South Ossetia.

[Giggilyomeromicon]

40,000 people is like 1/2 the population of South Ossetia.

While I may have gotten my figures wrong, this (http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Russia/idUSL872256820080808), this (http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/International/09-Aug-2008/Russia-reports-ethnic-cleansing), and this (http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2008/0808.html) seem to agree with me. Both sides have accused each other of ethnic cleansing, but a lot of the actual reports were from before the Russian invasion. ¯\(º_o)/¯

[WarInSerbia]

it wasnt me honest :)

ontopic,well...from what I heard russia found out that georgia has increased their military by many times spending over milion dolars (??) to weaponry,while they said that its only light weapons (ak's and other) the weapons have been produced by NATO (??).Russia felt threatened and...thats it?
The person we need now is Mag :)

[Skullflower]

Georgia launched a surprise attack to take back South Ossetia and the Russian's responded by sending in troops and tanks to back up the Russian peacekeepers that have been in the country since 1992. And the US has been providing large amounts of support and training to Georgia since 2002.

[Modred]

Georgia launched a surprise attack to take back South Ossetia and the Russian's responded by sending in troops and tanks to back up the Russian peacekeepers that have been in the country since 1992. And the US has been providing large amounts of support and training to Georgia since 2002.

South Ossetia is not part of Russia. Georgia is not "taking it back". There are Georgian peacekeepers in South Ossetia alongside the Russians. Something fishy is going on in both Russia and Georgia.

[Magmaniac]

I've been following this pretty closely.
Georgia accused Russia of violating a strenuous ceasefire that had recently been developed between the two countries by moving too many tanks or armored vehicles or something into south ossetia. South ossetia has been an independent area governing itself for a while (as has abkhazia which is another region of contention.)
These two regions want independence from georgia, but georgia wants them to remain part of it (they are both important, abkhazia has access to ports on the black sea and is important for OIL, and ossetia includes part of a large OIL pipeline.) These two regions have local governments who have been building up ties with moscow, who has sent peacekeeping troops into the regions. Once the georgians saw that the russians were violating the ceasfire, and that their leader was overseas at the olympics, they figured it was time for a balls out attack to take over south ossetia once and for all (a promise that their president had when he got elected.) However, russia gives citizenship to anyone who lives in former soviet countries who wants it pretty much so it can have an excuse to send forces there, so when the georgians moved in and were killing the ossetian rebels, the russians cried THEY ARE KILLING RUSSIANS! and sent in hundreds of tanks. Now the capital of south ossetia is in ruins and the abkhaizan rebels are also attacking the georgian forces stationed there. Hundreds if not thousands are dead, and the russians are pushing towards the georgian capital, bombing airports and seaports, and conducting an illegal sea blockade on the black sea. Georgia is a close ally of the united states, having helped us a lot in Iraq by contributing troops, and they have asked for our assistance. They only wanted to take back the separatist lands that they feel are theirs rightfully, and be done with it, but now the russians are bombing their cities and they are in over their heads. They have asked america to help get their thousands of troops in iraq back to georgia.
The ultimate end of this is that Russia is seeking to snuff out a good example of a fledgling democracy on it's borders in order to gain more power and more OIL.

[Toucan]

Russia's attack on Georgia came after Georgia requested to join NATA. There was no ethnic cleansing going being committed by the Georgian's. I dont know what the Russian governement thinks its doing but there are more than 2000 dead civillians since last Thursday.

[SHISHKABOB]

I don't think you should make fun of war DarkMirror, hundreds of people are dying and lots of shit is getting messed up. No one has tried to suggest that this will lead to a world wide conflict, therefore I don't think anyone cares about what you're trying to say. War is always an important event and shouldn't be ignored.

[SilverCrusader]

War isn't to be taken lightly >:|

Georgia isn't justified in attacking, neither is Russia. But Russia is going to win, because Russia is a big dog. And the big dogs rule. Unfortunately this is how politics work. Big dog rules, little dogs step aside for get thrown aside.

[Ubergopher]

Hmmm... this is the first time in history a nation that was defeated in a war has used "protecting their citizens" as a ploy to gain more land.

[DarkMirror]

Sorry, it just seems like every time theres been a war thread people have gone "This is going to lead to WW3", even more so because people in this thread are all like "ZOMG Amerika is helpin' GEORGIA! Russia will be the pissed!"

[Ktan]

The only other instance where this seemed to happen was a little piss-fest about an invasion that happened in the Balkans which some members blew out of proportion. That Balkans conflict was very localised.

However, this does have some potential to really kick off, precisely for the reasons you stated. Of course, hopefully we're at a diplomatic stage of maturity in the world where the two sides can simply be talked down.

[SilverCrusader]

However, this does have some potential to really kick off, precisely for the reasons you stated. Of course, hopefully we're at a diplomatic stage of maturity in the world where the two sides can simply be talked down.
It sure does, I realized that after I read an article on CNN about how the US is "deeply concerned" about Russia's motives. I would hate for the world to begin war during the Olympics. Russia and Georgia has already defiled the Olympics by warring. In the ancient days the city states of Greece would not fight during the Olympics, it is sad to see Russia and Georgia not hold up to that. I'm pretty sure Russia agreed to it too.
http://www.olympictruce.org/

[DarkMirror]

Your standards make me laugh.

Its human nature to be violent. Thats not going to change any time soon, and we had best hope it doesnt, really.

We should just hope that we aren't forced to become involved with this, and that our family doesnt either, and wait it out.

[Ktan]

Equally, however, the Olympics has also been used as a political standpoint by two female shooting contestants, one from Russia and one from Georgia. Although they were close rivals, they saw fit to stand together on the issue and called to their leaders to stand down.

Granted, it's merely a gesture, but sometime moments like that are quite warming

[SilverCrusader]

Your standards make me laugh.
Their standards make me weep.

Equally, however, the Olympics has also been used as a political standpoint by two female shooting contestants, one from Russia and one from Georgia. Although they were close rivals, they saw fit to stand together on the issue and called to their leaders to stand down.

Granted, it's merely a gesture, but sometime moments like that are quite warming
They've certainly earned my admiration and respect.

Like DM said, let's hope the waters calm.

[Kingscrab]

Georgia stuck a stick in a hornet's nest. A very large, dangerous, hornet's nest. You don't fuck with Russia. They are just itching for some reason to pound on someone.

They brought this on themselves.

[GenocideAlive]

While I definitely believe Georgians are in the right, they're fucking with oil. And thus, as Kingscrab so dutifully outlined, they were stupid. And as stupid people suffer, and they're going to suffer rather badly for their decision. America wants that oil, Russia wants that oil, and Russia's a lot closer and has a much better premise for involving itself. Giggly's mention of ethnic cleansing is entirely for the sensationalist appeal to war, as he's openly admitted to turning into quite the hyper troll lately. They're fighting, and claiming that nationalism is now an ethnicity is getting a little stupid.

[Kingscrab]

Yeah, right or wrong, the Georgians should have know better than to poke Russia in the eye. A piece of humble pie is better than a chow line of whoop ass.

I'm with GA on this one: Ethnic cleansing? Really. That's just dumb. It's all about the $$$$ (oil). Unless I'm wrong, didn't the Russian planes target, but not actually hit, the Georgian oil pipelines...

Hmmmm... :shiftyl:

[mranderson]

Your standards make me laugh.

Its human nature to be violent. Thats not going to change any time soon, and we had best hope it doesnt, really.

We should just hope that we aren't forced to become involved with this, and that our family doesnt either, and wait it out.

Ummm, humans are violent? Do you have any logical proof for this?

Allow me to summarize my viewpoint. Stick two humans together and what will happen? Stick two humans in a room with enough food, and water for one, and only one man's survival and what will happen? It seems like limited resources force humans to deal with others violently. Humans basic desires are food, sleep, and procreation for future generations.

Again, do you want to make your point more clear?

[DarkMirror]

Humans also like to be dominant. When others want to be dominant, it often comes to bloodshed. This is lsightly reduced now adays than from caveman days and such, but it still applies.

As for my remark about it being best this way, consider this.

What if, tomorrow, we found a way to remove the urge to be violent from every human? We would have world peace.

Until a few people mutated, and regained the dominance urge.

Most likely, they would take over the rest of the world.

[mranderson]

And what would happen if everyone you mutated developed a debilitating disease and died? Yes, hypothetical scenarios with no point for the win.

People like to be dominant for a supply of the three basic necessities. And no, not everyone is dominant. They may like to be but they do not have the equipment (eg. muscle, balls, or smarts) to stand up to others. Can you say sheepherd mentality? Two groups come into conflict these days, not two individuals.

[DarkMirror]

I dont see why we are arguing this point. Humans are violent beings. Thats why war happens. So, cram your pretty little arguments that humans are goodnatured and that all problems could be solved if everyone had everything they needed.

[Black.Ice]

Of course, hopefully we're at a diplomatic stage of maturity in the world where the two sides can simply be talked down.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

The world is far from a point where diplomacy wins. Look at the current escalating issue with the US and Iran. The US seems to be moving towards a blockade in Iran, which is an open act of war.

There are several house resolutions in the works right now that would pretty much force a blockade on Iran and punish other countries who choose to violate that. Even worse, nothing has been taking off the plate. IIIRC, the resolution even has options for a nuclear first strike.

Indeed, the world is a sad, sad place. :(

[mranderson]

I dont see why we are arguing this point. Humans are violent beings. Thats why war happens. So, cram your pretty little arguments that humans are goodnatured and that all problems could be solved if everyone had everything they needed.


When did I ever say they were good natured, or that the world's problems would be solved if everyone had everything they needed (artificial starvation, and a percieved want of items would seem to upset this anyways)? Please read and use logic, and reasoning next time before you critique other's writing.

Of course I asked you to use logic, and you come at me with "humans are dominant." Than you proceed to make a completely hypothetical situation that will in all honesty never happen. Than you proceed to try to marginalize my view with "I don't see why we're arguing (summarized) but you are wrong, and here are your views I stereotyped to make you look bad." When did I ever say that if everyone had everything they wouldn't be violent? I'm just saying that humans are not naturally violent as you seem to suggest. It is more of self-preservation instinct, and learned associations.

I still see no proof and reasoning in your arguement. Humans are not violent beings until they learn to be so, and war is not what happens when humans are violent. War happens when countries go to war, not when humans are violent. Violence is homicide, burgularly, and rape.

I asked you to clarify your point with reasoning, and logic, not attack my percieved ideas, and misconstruing my analogies. Not only that but you used three lines to do so. More logic, and reasoning please in this thread, this isn't a little kid topic. If you are going to make statements make sure you can back them up.

[DarkMirror]

Its not murder if the government gives you a gun, eh?

[mranderson]

When did I ever say they were good natured, or that the world's problems would be solved if everyone had everything they needed (artificial starvation, and a percieved want of items would seem to upset this anyways)? Please read and use logic, and reasoning next time before you critique other's writing.

Of course I asked you to use logic, and you come at me with "humans are dominant." Than you proceed to make a completely hypothetical situation that will in all honesty never happen. Than you proceed to try to marginalize my view with "I don't see why we're arguing (summarized) but you are wrong, and here are your views I stereotyped to make you look bad." When did I ever say that if everyone had everything they wouldn't be violent? I'm just saying that humans are not naturally violent as you seem to suggest. It is more of self-preservation instinct, and learned associations.

I still see no proof and reasoning in your arguement. Humans are not violent beings until they learn to be so, and war is not what happens when humans are violent. War happens when countries go to war, not when humans are violent. Violence is homicide, burgularly, and rape.

I asked you to clarify your point with reasoning, and logic, not attack my percieved ideas, and misconstruing my analogies. Not only that but you used three lines to do so. More logic, and reasoning please in this thread, this isn't a little kid topic. If you are going to make statements make sure you can back them up.

Ummm...

Its not murder if the government gives you a gun, eh?

Where did I say that again? But to humor you I will answer your question. No it is not.

It is not a "human" action in the sense of one individual inflicting harm on the other individual when the government gives a soldier a weapon. It is the government's responsibility for them, which responsibility falls to either their superior officers, or their commander in chief or the politician that sent them there. The definition for murder is the "crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought." The murder committed by a soldier in a certain point of view is "lawful" and without his malice aforethought. What the resulting death is though is a war casualty, also known as a statistic. It is not a murder.

So if a soldier killed someone in a warzone that falls on the US government, not that individual, which makes it something rather entirely different than a murder. The government's choices and actions are not human actions, and should not be judged based on a human, or individual level. Governments are a social, political, and economic body of the people that is judged by separate and larger laws. A soldier is different because that is their chosen profession than say someone who is in a gang.

However, if you are done with your one liners it'd be nice to see something mentioned in my actual posts instead of pulling out sentences or ideas I do not use. It would also be nice to see some longer posts, like say a paragraph which is around five sentences. Nor do I see any reasoning yet for humans are violent.

[SHISHKABOB]

Not to push the train any further off its tracks but... Murder is murder however you try and phrase it. The willful killing of one person by another is murder. You can justify it all you want, but it's still murder.

Also, does anyone know if anything is cooling down in Georgia right now? Or is it still going to shit.

[Skullflower]

Its supposed to be getting worse over there. Apparently, Russia has effectively cut the country in half. And they're something like 50 miles away from Georgia's capital.

[mranderson]

Not to push the train any further off its tracks but... Murder is murder however you try and phrase it. The willful killing of one person by another (singular) is murder. You can justify it all you want, but it's still murder.

Also, does anyone know if anything is cooling down in Georgia right now? Or is it still going to shit.

'Nuff said.

But no things are not cooling down in Georgia. Tbis conflict started far before hand with Georgia applying for NATO, and buying weapons. And help won't come from the UN if you're wondering since Russia in its spot on the security council can veto anything with a simple no.

Georgia pushed on South Ossetia (or w/e its called) and killed civilians and russian peace keepers. Russians pushed back with tanks, air strikes, and paratroopers. Russia already denied Georgia's cease-fire terms from late last week if I'm not mistaken, and obviously the violence hasn't stopped. Tanks are already in there, so things are not going to cool down just yet.

Of course each country is going through media now to try and get out their message. Georgia is claiming the "we're oppressed and trying to be democractic, help us" and Russia is pulling the Cold War rhetoric from its bag, and making the UN meetings all nostalgic again.

Basically it is up to the "western democracies" to see if they want to back Georgia in this fight, and try to get Russia to settle down. Or they can sit tight and watch Georgia get spanked.

[Modred]

Here's something I find interesting: Many people in South Ossetia are considered Russian citizens, with Russian passports and all, despite not living in or coming from Russia proper as defined by international borders.

Georgia claims that separatists in South Ossetia were launching artillery into other Georgian territories. By retaliating against separatists, they are attacking Russian citizens, who aren't really from Russia, but it gives the Putin/Medvedev combo a valid reason (in their eyes) to send in a full-fledged military strike.

[SilverCrusader]

But no things are not cooling down in Georgia. Tbis conflict started far before hand with Georgia applying for NATO, and buying weapons. And help won't come from the UN if you're wondering since Russia in its spot on the security council can veto anything with a simple no.
It can, but there is a resolution passed demanding a ceasefire. I don't know if it will get anywhere, in the UN it is no longer Georgia vs. Russia, it is America vs. Russia.

[mranderson]

We've seen how well the UN works before. They were definitely on top of their shit in Darfur when white's, and other foreigners were evacuated. Yes, good job there. The UN can pout all they want, but Russia does hold a position on the security council and can veto practically anything. Doesn't the UN also tend to pass resolutions blasting Israel though?

But no, it is the "western democracies vs. Russia" now. The US already shipped back the 2000 or so Georgian soldiers I believe. I do not see any american tanks or air strikes in Georgia though. Although apparently the "G-7" are being called to discuss a plan of action.

So the real question is who fired the first shot?

[singo]

Well, apparently there is a ceasefire in place, but it doesnt look to be very robust.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7558399.stm

Russia claim to definately not be heading for Tbilisi.

And look at the map in there, South Ossetia is a Georgian territory, technically Georgia were in the right to move in. And smart to move back out again once five divisions of Russians rolled over the border.

[mranderson]

Singo... gori is not in South Ossetia, and you forget that some South Ossetia citizens are Russian citizens (nationalized ofc).

[West]

God, I hope we don't get involved. Better them getting "spanked" than us getting involved.

[Skullflower]

The US Military is over there right now helping with humanitarian aid.

[GenocideAlive]

WTH are you talking about? Do you mean "spanked" as in slaughtered? "Cleansed?" They accuse the Pentagon of sterilizing language to describe atrocities, but honestly it seems more natural than mankind likes to admit. I'm not choosing sides in the conflict, but seriously, this isn't a game of SC.

[singo]

Singo... gori is not in South Ossetia, and you forget that some South Ossetia citizens are Russian citizens (nationalized ofc).

I was talking about the start of the conflict, not the way its gone since.

And I dont like the precident of invasions because of mistreatment of citizens living in another country. Its a distressingly widespread phenomenon, although its usually on a smaller scale.

[West]

WTH are you talking about? Do you mean "spanked" as in slaughtered? "Cleansed?" They accuse the Pentagon of sterilizing language to describe atrocities, but honestly it seems more natural than mankind likes to admit. I'm not choosing sides in the conflict, but seriously, this isn't a game of SC.


What I'm talking about is that better them than us. Better Russia spank them with their handful of tanks than us getting involved. There is no difference in the way I used spanked, or the way i could have used slaughtered. You also don't have to tell me this isn't a game of SC, I know real people are dying because of this, and plenty more are getting hurt. I don't see why the words I choose to use matter.

[Gunmonk]

Other than the fact that the cold war never really ended, we were still quite involved in Europe. Russia has had this planned for quite some time... the invasion of Georgia (just take a look at where it is, and what they'd have to plan for coming over mountains and what not) This was not some immediate threat posed by the Georgians all of the sudden, this was planned. Whenever people get their thumbs outta their asses and realize this, we'll all be allot better off.

Putin is still in power, and the guy(Medvedev) who nominated him is either Putin's puppet, or Putin is Medvedev's puppet, either way, I'm scared. Looks like we might be pulling out of Iraq sooner than we thought.

[SilverCrusader]

Putin is still in power, and the guy(Medvedev) who nominated him is either Putin's puppet, or Putin is Medvedev's puppet, either way, I'm scared. Looks like we might be pulling out of Iraq sooner than we thought.
I certainly hope not, we need to finish reconstructing Iraq :/.

[Ubergopher]

You mean finish training the Iraqis to rebuild right? Do you even know what we DO in Iraq and Afghanistan right now? Look up what ETTs and MTTs are. Don't get me wrong, there are still kinetic and civil operations going on there, but they're being turned over more and more to the IA/IP and the ANA/ANP.

Also, gunmonk look into the "election" for the last Russian president and then tell me you think Medvedev isn't a puppet. Fuckin' Putin and his KBG history is still running Russia.

[SilverCrusader]

You mean finish training the Iraqis to rebuild right? Do you even know what we DO in Iraq and Afghanistan right now? Look up what ETTs and MTTs are. Don't get me wrong, there are still kinetic and civil operations going on there, but they're being turned over more and more to the IA/IP and the ANA/ANP.
Yes, that is what I meant. I get the gist of what is happening over there.

On another note, the relation between Russia and the USA is becoming more and more stormy. Secretary of State Rice is going to Georgia to see what is happening.

[GenocideAlive]

Rice is so awesome. She's got mass experience and academic study in relations with Russia. God it's going to be the bomb.com to see her go to work. If she ran for Prez, I think I'd have a lot of difficulty not giving her my vote.

[Faiien]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_p3hLtr5Ok
This is just the 101 for anyone that's out of the loop on the war, just a basic summary of the History between Georgia and Russia presented by a guy with peanut butter on his face.

[Gunmonk]

Apologies, for the medvedev comment, Uber, you are right, he is definitely Putin's. I'm not exactly sure about how the russian people like Putin so much... From what I've heard, when I was speaking with a Russian Jew at the synagogue last Saturday, Russian policy is becoming allot more like it was in the cold war. He was a fighter pilot in the Russian Navy, and he was telling me that there seem to be allot more people that dislike Putin than do like him.

As for other things, there is a high chance that we will see Russia in her former glory in this decade, not only that, but they are in a great position to do so with their position on the security council... Russia having a spot on the security council in the UN allows them to veto just about anything they want. Think of it like using a rubberband for a condom... just doesnt quite work.

[Ktan]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

Indeed, the world is a sad, sad place. :(

I wasn't being sarcastic, and I suppose I could have come off as naive, but I genuinely hope this can be talked down before it gets blown out into something bigger.

One instance is that the whole smorgasboard of accusations being thrown about (particulalry ones about ethnic cleansing) show that both sides are trying to rally international communities to one side or the other. I'm not 100% sure about the veracity of all these statements, since I've not been following the situation that closely. Apparantly Channel 5 news had some 'First hand accounts'...etc but I didn't see the item myself and I'm worried that C5 has gone more for hype since it's 'revamp'. What scant stuff I trust has came mainly from the BBC.

[singo]

I'm not exactly sure about how the russian people like Putin so much...


Because Russia is considerably better off moneywise now than it was when he first started running the show. Most people are more than willing to excuse copious amounts of foreign policy twattery by their leaders as long as they personally are doing alright.

[tranquill]

Russia-Georgia conflict created a big headache for Israel which armed and trained Georgians for years - and now suddenly Russians threaten retaliation by supplying S-300 SAM batteries to Syria. Here is what a prominent Israeli analyst says: http://samsonblinded.org/blog/on-russia-georgia-and-israel.htm