Spam Crackdown Discussion

[Black.Ice]

As Ktan noted, we've been discussing the spam situation for quite a while in the staff forum. There has been a lot of flaming, trolling and general crappy posts going around. Seing locked threads in the ML has become a norm now.

We're going to be deleting posts, but I thought I'd clarify some more.


The basic rule to keep in mind is that you must contribute to a thread. If you simply post something that does not add anything to the thread, it will most likley be deleted. For example, if you respond to this thread with a, "Great Idea Black.Ice" it will probably be deleted.


Also, please keep in mind that the staff are not immune from this rule. In the past, the staff have always joked. Staff often breaks the rules for one liners, etc., but if you see this happening please report the post and we'll be dealing with the staff.


So, what does this mean for you?
This doesn't mean we're cracking down on funny posts or something like that. You can still post like normal as long as you use your brain and are smart. Sometimes a one word witty remark is all that's needed in a thread and it's fine as long as there's evidence you put some thought into the post.

What does this mean in regards to flaming and spamming?
Flaming and spamming will not be tolerated. At all. We've become somewhat lenient in the past with trolls and flames because there are usually a few other good points, however, we will not let it slide. Even if you're thread has a hint of a troll or could incite a negative response, we will be deleting it. If you have nothing to contribute or nothing positive to say, don't say it. You can always discuss something via PM or Profile Messages.


But I wanna comment on the funny post XXXXXX made!!
Use the profile feature. If you simply want to say great post, or that you agree with someone's post, either give them reputation / karma, or leave them a profile message. Don't post it.


Feel free to discuss here.

[DoctorZettabyte]

Face it, everyone's seen or partaken in it. Trolling runs rampant, flame wars come often, and everyone is generally tense around here. Lighten up, and start using your heads.

Reporting posts does get the job done, but if it's massively urgent, PM'ing or IRC works sometimes.

Don't debate on reporting, either. When in doubt, send a report in.

I'm usually sending too many. :-P

-DocZetta

[anderoo]

Great idea, Black Ice!
dun
dun
dunnnnn

In all seriousness though, people need to stop ignoring this, I know personally lately I've been feeling like warboards didn't have uch purpose, and i was just throwing out posts without much thought to them, because I didn't care. So now I'm going to change that, and hopefully other members do the same, and we can turn warboards back into a community that people can actually gain something out of, be it a starcraft strategy, world of warcraft advice, photoshop help, whatever.

[Modred]

Even if you're thread has a hint of a troll or could incite a negative response, we will be deleting it.

Minority Report, much? How do you gauge what will cause a "negative response"? Perhaps it depends on how we define negative: I'm thinking more along the lines of disagreement, an opposite from the initial sentiment of the OP. In this sense, a negative is simply the opposite of an affirmative, and can be expressed without trolling or flaming or degrading the opponent.

Really, I'd say that the issue here should be are the posts in question attacking the character of another member, or are they attacking the merit of that member's ideas? The first should most often be an infraction, unless you can clearly tell that the intent was not to harm, but the second should be allowed. The problem arises when a person cannot differentiate between the two, and believes that by insulting another member they are demonstrating the folly of that person's argument.

To remedy this problem, we must provide good examples of courteous behavior, even when dissenting or disagreeing. Also, I don't think it would hurt to be gentle when correcting a person who posts out of line. More with an air of guiding people toward being good members, than simply chastising them when they cross a boundary.

[apostolos]

I agree.I believe that you should have done that days or even months ago, because, a spammy post brings another spammy post, which may lead to a spammy thread telling others not to spam while spamming at the same time.

[PaiN]

Even if you're thread has a hint of a troll or could incite a negative response, we will be deleting it.

I agree with the trolling but I think simply because your response was negative doesnt mean it should be deleted. If it was mannered and constructive then it should stay, it shows your opinion to the OP or whoever you were replying to and I think if people get to the point where a negative reply is to much then thats ridiculous. But I do agree we need to crack down on posting quality

[Gunmonk]

Aye capp'n B.I, thank you for taking notice of the current situation, as I believe this crackdown will help very much to improve posting and forum standards. Also, I do propose that such a thing be temporary and not enforced forever, I do think that there is a time to let up a bit...

[Black.Ice]

Minority Report, much? How do you gauge what will cause a "negative response"? Perhaps it depends on how we define negative: I'm thinking more along the lines of disagreement, an opposite from the initial sentiment of the OP. In this sense, a negative is simply the opposite of an affirmative, and can be expressed without trolling or flaming or degrading the opponent.

Really, I'd say that the issue here should be are the posts in question attacking the character of another member, or are they attacking the merit of that member's ideas? The first should most often be an infraction, unless you can clearly tell that the intent was not to harm, but the second should be allowed. The problem arises when a person cannot differentiate between the two, and believes that by insulting another member they are demonstrating the folly of that person's argument.

To remedy this problem, we must provide good examples of courteous behavior, even when dissenting or disagreeing. Also, I don't think it would hurt to be gentle when correcting a person who posts out of line. More with an air of guiding people toward being good members, than simply chastising them when they cross a boundary.


I agree with you on a lot of points, but there are a few things I'd like to point out. Your comparison with a minority report is more of a police / citizen type thing. Warboards is far from that, we're a bunch of people together having a party, or something similar. If someone's a crashing it, you can tell them to clean up their act or leave. We're not here to discipline you or punish you for your actions.

As for the negative response issue, we're not going to be a thought police. A strict line has not been drawn. We're not machines who are trained to delete post based upon a X percentage of troll. We're humans and we're going to act like it. We're just going to be strict and if you come across as a troll, we're going to delete.

Remember, it's perfectly valid to diss on someone's words. You can tell me that this entire idea is a fiasco and it's a PR stunt and that it's stupid and wrong. That's perfectly fine and we won't delete stuff like that as long as you put thought into it. If you put a "You guys don't know what you're doing." or even a more polite, "Your ideas are wrong", it will probably be deleted because you're not contributing to the conversation. A "Your ideas are wrong because of X, Y, and Z" would be acceptable.

If you outright insult us without discussing our ideas, that will obviously be deleted.


To make all this simple, the basic underlying thing that we're asking of members is that they put thought into their posts. As long as you do that without trolling or flaming someone, you'll be fine.

Overall, your mileage will vary among different moderators. After all, it's impossible to get a uniform decision when we have individuals moderators deciding what's good and what's not.

[MatGeo]

I do not wish to make any funny remark or doubt the fact that you guys are doing a good job as mods and I am profoundly sorry if you consider my post as spam, but this has been tried before at least once (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=32667) as you no doubt know.

I recall it made a difference, but if memory serves it was pretty short lived.

The point of my post: If you intend to try it again, do something to make it last longer.

[ZeratulStukov]

It's not him or her, or a moderator or AJ that has to do something, it is us all. This is, if we want any improvement.

[MatGeo]

I completely agree, but I also think that if all members would stop spamming and started reporting posts and everything, after a few weeks(or less) of a "clean Warboards" they'll(or someone) forget all about it, and return to their old habits(of course I am talking about those who usually spam).

Call it intuition but I think it'll happen because some people desire to draw attention over the internet, or are not satisfied with their current postcount and/or reputation.

[Modred]

As I mentioned in the "Oh no, Warboards is dying and we're all to blame" thread, this seems to happen in cycles. Black.Ice or Neo will post a "We're cracking down on Spam" announcement in response to the complaints, and after a few weeks, everything quiets down.

Thus my vote that no crackdown is required. This is really all in your head.

[Vezer]

I believe a crackdown isn't necessary, but probably a good idea. As long as 'cracking down' is an actual change in policy, we want to deal with the problem, not let it escalate.

[3Vee]

I dunno about a crackdown so much as responsible enforcement... but things are slightly out of hand, so maybe it's a good idea.

[own3d0406]

I haven't noticed any difference in spaming/flaming, except for that Protogod and GA incident.

Personally, those off topic one liners give me a laugh now and then, and I don't think that's a problem. Threads that get too clogged up with spam get closed anyway.

So, I don't think a crackdown is necessary.

[Ubergopher]

Modred, please stop saying what I want to say before me and better. It'd make my life easier.

[Neo]

As I mentioned in the "Oh no, Warboards is dying and we're all to blame" thread, this seems to happen in cycles. Black.Ice or Neo will post a "We're cracking down on Spam" announcement in response to the complaints, and after a few weeks, everything quiets down.

Thus my vote that no crackdown is required. This is really all in your head.

That's not exactly fair. The point is that the spam crackdown happens, we moderate heavily for a few days to a week or two, and then people start behaving, everything settles down, and we get back to the quality posts we all love.

Spam Crackdown results in the quieting down. The quieting down doesn't just happen.

PS: Can we just delete the game room? Plz. Or turn it into a NPC forum or hide it or something?

-Neo

[MatGeo]

PS: Can we just delete the game room? Plz. Or turn it into a NPC forum or hide it or something?

-Neo

While that would help in a way, that is not the biggest problem since it was originally thought up(probably) as a forum where members can spam/post low-quality posts so they don't do it elsewhere.

The fact that it currently serves as a postcount booster is a totally different thing.

[SilverCrusader]

I believe the mods should do whatever they feel they need to, I trust in them to make good choices - whether I like them or not. They've done a good job so far, and I don't think they're going to stop.

So you guys just do whatever you feel you need to and I'll back you up 100% ;D

[GenocideAlive]

I agree with Modred. This is something that happens every 6 mos. or so, where a mod decides that they're going to SpiderMan up and use their powers for the greater good or whatever. After about two weeks of "crackdowns" they realize that this could entail some serious dedication and it all disappears quietly. Posters go back to posting and they go back to being half-inactive.

[DarkMirror]

The gameroom needs closing. Please people, its a detriment to the boards! It doesn't keep the spammy/low content posts out of the rest, it says that "Hey, we have a place for them! Warboards is ok with these types of posts!" and encourages them to post like that all the time.

[Black.Ice]

That's true GA.

We're hoping people learn that this is the way that everyone is supposed to post. One liners and all this stuff should never be acceptable and the little crackdown doesn't mean it's only a temporary thing.

The crackdown announcement serves as a reminder for everyone to raise the quality of the posts. It also serves as an announcement to let everyone know why more posts are being deleted than normal.

Now, why are more posts being deleted now than a few months ago if this is supposed to be the way things are supposed to be? The answer is simple, moderators are humans and we get lazy. I have let countless spammy posts slide and didn't really care about it. I'm sure others have felt the same way.

With each crackdown, the quality of posts raises for a few months because people watch what they post, but then they slowly forget and fall back into a rut of inane comments and stupid posts. The moderators also get too lazy and stop caring, and people start complaining about how WB sucks now. It's a vicious cycle.

[SpiderEternal]

Jesus leaping christ lizards. Stop.

I dislike getting involved in net politics but I feel I cannot ignore this; you are one of the few forums I enjoy visiting on a semi-regular basis.

What you're doing right now as mods is misguided. Good intentions yes, but you're going to shoot yourselves in the foot. Take it from someone who was a moderator and admin for years. I saw a forum slowly die because of these very ideas.

It seems simple enough now, but the more rules you layer on, the more you'll have to keep adding in the future; people will go out of their way to find loopholes in the system, they'll argue to death and hold you to the same standards. Entertainment will be derived from the stress they give you and when you slip up yourself. Eventually it will consume the board.

It is the responsibility of the posters themselves to moderate content; the spam you are trying to combat is subjective.

That makes it impossible to eliminate as an authority figure.

What users put in is what they get out of their forum. You are but the hands that keep actual rules from being broken. (Real spam, ads, porn, etc) You will never be able to moderate content in the way that you hope to; once you reach that stage people won't care to follow your book of rules and simply leave.

You cannot have a say in community matters using your privileges if you wish to avoid problems.

Remember, this is an internet forum. People come here to escape the rules and bull of real life in a casual place to interact with their peers.

You already have the right idea with a spam forum. It's a dump; it keeps the rest of the forums clean. (If the thread still exists the participating posters have no grounds on which to complain) Redirect spam threads there, and enforce the black and white rules. Post count isn't worth arguing; people know who walks the talk and those who don't. I'm sure a vB hack can implement a line in user profiles that lists which forums the user posts in most; assuming you're that adamant.

The users themselves need to take care of the company they keep.

Why do people want to come here? What makes them stay?

I think these are far more prudent questions you need to be addressing.

[SilverCrusader]

The users themselves need to take care of the company they keep.
You see, the problem with this is that the users aren't doing that :/

[Neo]

Spider you should really chill out.

We do this once or twice a year.

It's nothing new, and we aren't going Nazi or anything.

-Neo

[Black.Ice]

Exactly, we're not becoming a thought police or anything of that sort. I think the word crackdown and making an announcement has freaked people out.

The basic rule is put some effort into your posts or it'll be deleted. Any trolls / spam will be deleted even if you make a valid point. Normally we'd let trolls / flames slide as long as someone makes a somewhat decent point, but we're not going to let that slide anymore.

That is all.

[Modred]

Exactly, we're not becoming a thought police or anything of that sort. I think the word crackdown and making an announcement has freaked people out.

The basic rule is put some effort into your posts or it'll be deleted. Any trolls / spam will be deleted even if you make a valid point. Normally we'd let trolls / flames slide as long as someone makes a somewhat decent point, but we're not going to let that slide anymore.

That is all.

If the flame doesn't permeate the post, for example, a one line insult at the beginning or end, couldn't you edit out the flame instead of deleting the whole post, assuming it has some point besides the flame?

Of course, if you force a person to make their point again without the flame, perhaps they will start to get the message that they should not include flames or even their valid contribution to the discussion will be removed along with the insult. Or they get angry and spam up the thread, send you angry PMs, and then leave the boards "forever" (another situation that seems to happen periodically with several members).

[Black.Ice]

If the flame doesn't permeate the post, for example, a one line insult at the beginning or end, couldn't you edit out the flame instead of deleting the whole post, assuming it has some point besides the flame?

Of course, if you force a person to make their point again without the flame, perhaps they will start to get the message that they should not include flames or even their valid contribution to the discussion will be removed along with the insult. Or they get angry and spam up the thread, send you angry PMs, and then leave the boards "forever" (another situation that seems to happen periodically with several members).

I had the idea of editing posts but that just gets messy. It starts feeling like we're censoring and it just makes things a pain. People will ask, "Why did you edit out X from my post, but let Y from John Doe's post slide?"

I guess they can ask that for a deletion as well, but censoring posts seems much more ominous. And people should learn that they shouldn't insult anyone at all.

[hammocksleeper]

Is this serious? The posting volume has gone down to like a third of what it was six months or so ago. You need a revitalization, not a spam cleanup.

*goes back into hiding*

[Sikawtic]

Warboards hit the shit-fan when its member base became composed of spamming idiots. It forced all the cool people away (glad to see some have returned.)

So I'm all for "thought control" when it means I have to see less "Vote for the Official Warboards Spammer!!!one!" threads. (are these still around? lol)

[Ubergopher]

So I'm all for "thought control" when it means I have to see less "Vote for the Official Warboards Spammer!!!one!" threads. (are these still around? lol)

Give Winston and the whole gang from Oceania my reguards.

I agree with Hammocksleeper, we need a revitilaztion, not a crack down.

[Neo]

Is this serious? The posting volume has gone down to like a third of what it was six months or so ago. You need a revitalization, not a spam cleanup.

*goes back into hiding*
pfft.

You guys gotta realize that during the summer, activity seems to dip off. This isn't exclusive to warboards either.

-Neo

[SpiderEternal]

You see, the problem with this is that the users aren't doing that :/

You reap what you sow.

A drop in posters warrants a drop in good content more than bad. Consider that spam is more noticeable. Worry about getting more content and new faces instead of more rules.

I feel this is an exercise in destructive futility, I'll leave it at that.

[mranderson]

Just because it happened at other sites doesn't mean it will happen at warboards. If it works the moderators will keep it. If it does not work it will be phased out most likely but this is just purely my speculation though so I'll leave it at this for now.

Also, some members seem to think a crackdown is not needed but the poll shows otherwise. Oddly enough we have inactive members that I rarley see post come in and tell the mods how to run the sight. And spider eternal I don't remember seeing you around the ML or IR much (I know you're in other areas though.) You do realize this crackdown is most likely for the IR, and ML as well as other threads that get off topic enough to warrant attention. Again though it is up to the mods to find those posts unless Doc Zeta is still on his patrols :P (Achoo, as in if this "crackdown" is to work members must take part in reporting posts, and improve posting quality).

I feel as if I'm in on a drug bust though using the word crackdown :)

[DoctorZettabyte]

Again though it is up to the mods to find those posts unless Doc Zeta is still on his patrols :P

All the time, but I can't take much credit anymore. A lot of other people are reporting posts, and they're doing a damn fine job of it, as far as I know.

I beat some of them to the punch on occasion. See: Lithium. ;-P

Moving on to the thread at hand, I don't think a massive amount of effort needs to go into cracking down on spam, but all of our efforts shouldn't be focused on bringing in more people. We need a solid balance of both.

It'd be nice if the moderators read (or even skimmed over) "The Briefing Room"'s threads on a more regular basis though. :-D

-DocZetta

[Vhaeraun]

It'd be nice if the moderators read (or even skimmed over) "The Briefing Room"'s threads on a more regular basis though. :-D
Shh, that exists to make it seem like we're doing work ;p which I do, just to mention ;p

[Neo]

It'd be nice if the moderators read (or even skimmed over) "The Briefing Room"'s threads on a more regular basis though. :-D

Well you gotta realize we read over all the reported posts -- however in some instances we don't always act one them ;)

-Neo

[Ktan]

You reap what you sow.

A drop in posters warrants a drop in good content more than bad. Consider that spam is more noticeable. Worry about getting more content and new faces instead of more rules.

I feel this is an exercise in destructive futility, I'll leave it at that.

We aren't actually introducing any new rules though, that's the thing. We are merely enforcing the curent rule-set more appropriately and more pro-actively.

There are no 'new rules', people are still subjected to the rules stated in the FAQ when they joined.

[GenocideAlive]

Worry about getting more content and new faces instead of more rules.
Despite that he's bringing up an entirely flawed point ("more rules", rather than "stricter enforcement"), I entirely agree with his sentiment. If you want to improve WB, improve it. Don't start tearing shit out and calling that improving it. Much of nature can be appreciated for its beauty, even weeds are beautiful in a way. Seeing two clipped flowers in a sodbed isn't very beautiful. People claim spam is way up and everything is going downhill, but until I posted about Tetris and got shitstormed, ML was seeing activity in 2-3 threads a day.

So I invite mods to practice what they preach--get involved, post threads of substance that you would like to see. Do something positive. You really relegate yourself to an antagonizing role if all you do is pick apart others' posts, and that's far from improving anything. Obviously we've seen a decline in WB lately or this wouldn't come up. I don't think it's from spam, I think it's from the way we're steering the ship.

I'm sure you draw comfort from the fact that you've done this before, but it's getting kind of sad that you openly admit you continue to apply the same flawed practices. Why not, I don't know, apply a standard? You're human, you're lazy, etc. etc. you're not really winning anyone's confidence or support by admitting that you're halfasses and tend towards bipolar behavior. Why be a mod if all you want to do is be smartasses and flex your muscles every couple of months?

[QuothTheRaven]

I think warboards is fine as is, I haven't seen much flaming but alot of negative intent in posts.

But what do I know I've been gone over a month.

[Basan]

I had the idea of editing posts but that just gets messy. It starts feeling like we're censoring and it just makes things a pain. People will ask, "Why did you edit out X from my post, but let Y from John Doe's post slide?"

I guess they can ask that for a deletion as well, but censoring posts seems much more ominous. And people should learn that they shouldn't insult anyone at all.

Actually I preferred much more editing the said post than obliterate it (read, deletion) in full. If the user addressed me with concerns to the why of the editing I'd explain him/her the reasons instead. Or if he kept that kind of behaviour I'd simply use the system that we have (explaining such reasons in the message) and then edit the post. Imho it shows that we're around and that we can compromise. If the post was pure flame bait or of the similar ilk then I'd act harsher considering the time that the user has been around, past warnings/infractions, continued ill behavioural traits and such.
Don't get me wrong here but I think that the staff needs to be a lil' more assertive on what it's doing, either 'coaching' new users when needs be or simply trying to keep the place interesting in what we can manage to pull the job efficiently. ;)

Edit add: For example, another move that I've did a lot was removing the pure advertising threads after deletion. That way no one apart the few that reported or saw it before that knew that it was ever there.

[Sikawtic]

disenvowel posts.

ie "You are a big poop head!"

becomes

"y r bg pp hd!"

I'm still not sure to count y ever as a vowel or not.

[Jehuty]

I haven't noticed any difference in spaming/flaming, except for that Protogod and GA incident.

Personally, those off topic one liners give me a laugh now and then, and I don't think that's a problem. Threads that get too clogged up with spam get closed anyway.

So, I don't think a crackdown is necessary.
Do you have a link to this Protogod and GA incident, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

Err edit: That was supposed to be a pm....

[Oblongato]

It's difficult for me to express how strongly I am against a crackdown on spam, including flames and garbage posts. (Advertising I can do without, however.)

I absolutely hate the feeling that my posts are being scanned for potentially offensive remarks or the idea that someone is reading threads for the express purpose of finding infractions.

I agree that there should be means available to protect people from actual emotional hurt and from having their earnest discussions disrupted. These means already exist without a crackdown. They are as follows:


PM the offender and ask that the post be amended.
Report the post and ask a moderator to request that the post be amended.

I propose that only after the two steps mentioned above have been taken should a post be deleted and/or an infraction issued.

Ask yourself: what is the purpose of moderation?

I came up with the following purposes (there may be more):


To protect the site from legal liability.
To protect members from cyber-aggression.
To prevent the disruption of serious discussions.

Moderation I consider unnecessary:


Protecting members who have not requested protection (from flames). (It should of course be made clear to all members that those feeling offended have recourse, as mentioned above.)
Deleting spam that does not represent a disruption.

My position is based on the principle of maximum reasonable liberty.

For the majority that voted that a spam crackdown is necessary, I have the following questions:


Why report a post that causes no harm to you? Are not spam threads readily recognizable so that you may avoid them? What do you have against other people's fun?
Do you not trust the ability of others to speak up when they are offended so that you have to protect them by reporting posts that do not offend you personally?
Have you never enjoyed a spam thread or post containing spam or a flame?
Should slightly irresponsible fun (spam threads, flames of people who can take it) be forbidden? How do these things harm you personally?

Speaking from my own experience, some of the best posts I've read have contained elements that would get them deleted under the current rules. Some of the posts I consider my best would be deleted under the current rules.

If I don't think it's fun reading or posting in a spam thread, I can do something else. Who is harmed by such threads?

If someone offends me I can write a PM to the offender and work it out, which is healthier than "squealing" immediately or having a "guardian angel" deprive me of the opportunity to work it out. If I can't work it out, I can report the post and say why it offends me. Then, of course, I would be grateful for a mod's assistance.

But policing for policing's sake is in my view a mistake. Creating a restrictive atmosphere will only drive people away, and not only the ones whose posts are deleted.