August Discussion Topic (They're Back)

[Protogod]

Yeah, the monthly discussion topics from Blizz are back for August. W00t. This month's topic: The New Gas Mechanic.

<August>Discussion Topic: Gas Mechanics
At the Worldwide Invitational in Paris, we had the opportunity to show you a new StarCraft II client. With this client we introduced a new idea on how our Gas Mechanics work. This would give the player more options and more economy choices. In the following days, Dustin Browder went more into detail on how these new mechanics can affect the game-play and we were able to get even more questions answered in the following Batch of the StarCraft II Q&A. Now we would like you to give us your feedback on the way Gas collection works now.

If you have a StarCraft II fan site and would like to participate, please email me at karune@blizzard.com.

Questions for Fans:

* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?
* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?
* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

* Additional feedback you might have

You can also check out our past Q&A and Dustin Browders post on the Gas Mechanics for more information on the subject:

WWI Gas Mechanic
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general-eu&t=809

StarCraft II Q&A Batch 41:
http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general-eu&t=830

Each StarCraft II fansite will be featuring different types of questions, so be sure to also visit those sites. All of this feedback will be compiled and sent to the dev team.

Please structure feedback as follows:

-----
<question you'd like to answer>
<your answer>

<question you'd like to answer>
<your answer>
-----

Were looking forward to seeing great discussions on the new Gas Mechanics!

[Dem0nS1ayer]

I hate this new mechanic. I don't think it makes any sense. How do you buy gas to put into your building?

[Ling666]

I hate this new mechanic. I don't think it makes any sense. How do you buy gas to put into your building?
You... spend minerals while digging deeper tunnels to find more gas deposits? That would explain why it closes down for 45 seconds or so.

What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?
Obviously they'd have the choice to expand their gas, and they would have to decide what they want to go for: more minerals/more gas. Buliding a second gas collector might help in certain builds, but it could be a hamperment at the very beginning when one zealot/rine/w.e makes all of the difference.

How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?
Overall, there might be more spellcasters brought into the game. Quite a few of the spellcasters had large costs of gas compared to how many minerals they took (i.e. the defiler, ghost, arbiter) so getting more gas using the replenishing gas option could mean more energy units in that regard. Currently, it seems like this mechanic would help the protoss more than zerg or terran. The protoss seem to use more gas, so it could get slightly more unbalanced, however it can probably be fixed by changning unit costs or whatever.

Do you like or dislike the change? Why?
I somewhat dislike it, because, in my opinion, it helps the protoss more than the other races. I can't be entirely sure how much the change would affect the game though, so I'm not certain whether or not to like it. It could certainly bring more diverse strategies in if it works well.

[Faiien]

* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?
More gas heavy builds/units.

* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?
It will allow the races to be able to tech up much more easily and zerg will not have to worry as much about getting 3 gas to maintain stability against other races.

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?
No, the mechanic doesnt make much sense and I feel there are better ways to layer more depth to starcraft.

* Additional feedback you might have
I hope this doesnt turn out to be another thor.

[Skullflower]

How do you buy gas to put into your building?

They're just fucking OG like that. Also, the new gas mechanic is a horrible idea.

[SilverCrusader]

* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?
New? I don't call turtling new.

* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?

It will make all three races rarely expand.

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?
Dislike, because it takes away from essential elements such as expanding, and makes it so if you lose your main, you're dead.

* Additional feedback you might have
Get rid of it. The way it worked out was absolutely perfect. There is no need to change it for the sake of new mechanics in gameplay.
Double yield minerals = good.
Vespene geyser mechanic = bad.
The minerals was a good idea, but then you threw the whole thing to hell by taking one step further. Double yield minerals promotes expansion, but then there is a flipflop to vespene geyser which encourages and rewards not expanding until late game.

[TychusFindlay]

"Dislike, because it takes away from essential elements such as expanding, and makes it so if you lose your main, you're dead."

LOL.. Maybe, you know, you could mind gas from another geyser.

[DarkMirror]

How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran? They will remain in their bases, fortifying and sending units out to attack rather than expand, although on occasion expansion may occour.

Do you like or dislike the change? Why? I heavily dislike it. It ruins a good thing, and at the same time, makes very little sense towards logic. Why would vespene gysers suddenly provide less yield? Why would they be more numerous? Why can they be upgraded?

Additional feedback you might havePlease remove this mechanic.

[SilverCrusader]

LOL.. Maybe, you know, you could mind gas from another geyser.
No, no you couldn't, if your opponent let you have a geyser they are stupid and suck.

Scouting too has an added layer of depth as well, as a players gas collecting play style may determine if the player is teching to a higher tier mineral heavy unit (like a Dark Templar) or a higher tech gas heavy unit (like a High Templar).

Bull shit. They didn't add anything that wasn't already in SC 1. You can tell what the opponent is doing by scouting, they are called BOs. If you don't know them you suck, and you will fall to D- on ICCUP.

It is the hope of the development team that this new mechanic will not only make gas collecting more interesting, but also increase the amount of macro management skill needed to compete in StarCraft II at the top levels while at the same time making the game playable for mid level players without using some of these more advanced techniques.

Don't get me started on macro management. They add MBS and then tell me they want to add more macro? They're worse than a politician.

All reasons why Blizzard is failing in SC2. At this rate SC2 won't even come close to living up to the previous title.

[Twitch6000]

Are they just trying to make this more and more like Red Alert 2?Or a better comparison C&C3...

I know this is alpha but dang when they came out with broodwar it was just a FEW new units and tech's.Not omfg new everything and making this more a mass game :/.

[3Vee]

...I know this is alpha but dang when they came out with broodwar it was just a FEW new units and tech's.Not omfg new everything and making this more a mass game :/.

That's because BW was an expansion, not a new game.

--

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

I dislike it; I believe the elegance of Starcraft was derived from the simplicity of designed abilities and mechanics. There simply were very few designed "gimmicks"; those were left up to the players. This new gas mechanic seems too complicated - forcing a micromanagement of the resource game that detracts, I think, from game flow.

Of course the resource part of the game has to be micromanaged some - how many workers on which resource when. But to force micromanagement of the resource itself? It goes too far.

[Bad]

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?

I dislike it! It makes Expansions not very important and if you have a big battle your ress management will break down.

It also make it very hard for new players to learn the game!

[TychusFindlay]

"No, no you couldn't, if your opponent let you have a geyser they are stupid and suck."

So .. Those pros in the replays/VODs .. They suck?

[DarkMirror]

I'm surprised the moderators havent cracked down on all of these posts, like they did in the past discussion topics. You're supposed to follow the format, and only post your opinions of that.

[Ktan]

That's understandable, but that was only actually enforced in one thread. However, it would be greatly useful and appreciated if users stuck to the right format.

[bubu]

actually, the gas mechanic would make expansions more important...here's why :

say you have 3 min patches and a geyser..mins total of say ..3000, and gas 2000

you build units etc bla bla...you get to choose between 2 high templars or whatever..so you make the gas have more gas...that means - 3000 mins and 2500 or whatever gas..but you used 200 or whatever minerals to make more gas, so, if you do that you need to expand asap or you will run out of minerals...

thus, this makes expansions more important...what you're trying to say is it makes GAS expansions less important...

so you get alot more fighting for minerals rather than gas, which means more spellcasters as someone else suggested, and less mineral units...which is good as it promotes micromanagement..

just a thought ..;)

[Aqo]

What the hell's with all the negative responses to the gas mechanic? Hasn't it ever occurred to someone that maybe, but just maybe, in SC2, the units won't be direct copies of the SC1 units, and they may actually have different costs? *gasp*
And what if tech and spellcasters and whatnot, would cost way more gas, so that the two geysers from one base would be as effective as a single SC1 geyser? hmm? no one?

D:

Seriously guys, what the fuck. I think this mechanic is interesting and worth developing. Blizzard aren't stupid, they won't turn camping into a main tactic with something like this, numbers will be adjusted to work correctly. Instead of thinking so much about numbers, think about the mechanic itself.
I think that with this addition, macro will have more depth, which would be pretty interesting. Right now, macro in Starcraft comes down to 4 principles:
1. Build workers
2. Expand
3. Expand your supply (pylons, depots, ovies)
4. Produce units (use all your gates 100% of the time, et cetera)
But people were saying producing units will be easier in SC2, whether that's true or not, people were complaining that macro is going to be too easy.
Well, this mechanic adds a depth that makes the player strategically choose between two options - gas or minerals, in several different ways (when to add the 2nd refinery, whether to spend minerals for more gas or not), making macro less straightforward and more interesting.

I support this.

As far as the official format goes:

* What new strategies and choices do you think the player would have and have to make with the new Gas Mechanics?
Players will have to spend more planning into their macromanagement. Strategies may include getting four geysers really fast, similar to how in SC1 you could get two geysers really fast for gas-heavy strategies like for instance a mutalisk rush.

* How do you think this change will effect Zerg, Protoss and Terran?
Well, seeing as it affects all the races equally, this depends on the way tech trees in SC2 would be structured. Since we still don't have a clear image of the three races' techtrees, it's impossible to tell what effect this would have on the races.

* Do you like or dislike the change? Why?
I like this change because it adds an element of depth to the game, from both sides. I.e. each player has to choose for himself whether to get extra gas or not, and at the same time he should scout whether the enemy players gets his extra gas and use that intel to be able to guess what his opponent is planning. Sounds like this could enhance gameplay in a positive way, giving the players more options and more room for quick thinking.

* Additional feedback you might have
I fear that eventually, this mechanic may not really add much and be rather bland, as eventually players will obviously want to get the two gases, so the whole gas mechanic will come down to build order timing.
I think it would be more interesting if getting a 2nd gas from the same base would create a field that reduced mineral mining rate. Now this will really turn this into a cool mechanic.

You'll be able to choose between having 4 bases with gas, that are harder to defend, but are more rewarding in both gas and minerals, or two bases with two gas in each, that are easier to defend, but in turn give you less minerals. This way, better players will obviously prefer expanding over staying in the base, while staying in the base and getting 2 gas could still be viable for special rush or hi-tech builds.

heh, players could build and destroy their own refineries to swap between gas and mineral collection rates according to what they need. That way, SC macro will take on a whole new level and will be harder to do perfectly, which in turn would give players the choice of whether they prefer focusing on macroing hard or microing hard, each according to his playstyle. This will add lots of interesting variety in gamestyles.



TLDR:
I believe this gas mechanic is worth investigating and should be slightly modified to become a very interesting addition to the game.
Now go read my post you lazy slob.

[Kimera757]

Karune and Dustin Browder had this to say on gas mechanics:

"We have been working hard for the last several months on ways to improve the gas mechanic in StarCraft 2. There are a couple of goals for this design change:

1) Gas doesnt always involve a lot of choice or strategy in SC2. You tend to just try to collect as much as you can as fast as you can and it involves only a few of your workers. Could a new way of collecting gas be another way to add more strategy to the game?

2) Base building and economy management isnt as strategically deep as we want it to be in StarCraft 2. StarCraft has always been a game where economy plays a large role in your strategy. Can we improve what we have?

The second issue is extremely important to us. Gas doesnt HAVE to be more interesting, but economy strategy and economy management must be an important part of the game. We have tried at least a dozen different gas systems in the last few months as we have explored what works and doesnt work inside StarCraft game play. We will continue to work on different ideas for a new gas mechanic until we find something that meets our needs or until we discover that all possible solutions are worse than what we currently have. What was shown at WWI was very much a work-in-progress, and while it continues to evolve it is valuable to be able to read forum posts from our fans about what they liked or didnt like in the last build they had a chance to play."

-Dustin Browder, Lead Designer of StarCraft II

Link: http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?FN=sc2-general&T=1652115&P=5

What the hell's with all the negative responses to the gas mechanic?

It's make work.

Hasn't it ever occurred to someone that maybe, but just maybe, in SC2, the units won't be direct copies of the SC1 units, and they may actually have different costs? *gasp*

A lot of the units have changed little, and so you would expect their costs to remain the same. I was certainly not happy to hear the Cybernetics Core costs gas. (I hope that's just a rumor.)

And what if tech and spellcasters and whatnot, would cost way more gas, so that the two geysers from one base would be as effective as a single SC1 geyser? hmm? no one?

That would cost twice as many workers and gas collection structures, and you run out after only 1200 gas, forcing you to use the annoying new mechanic.



I think that with this addition, macro will have more depth, which would be pretty interesting.

There are plenty of better ways of adding depth to macro. Furthermore, any new mechanics should be positive. You should be rewarded for paying attention to your base, rather than just suffering annoyance. (I won't really say punishment, see the next bit.)

From Batch 41

Overall, players will have to build the appropriate buildings as well as gather resources in a particular method in order to execute a certain strategy at a professional level. It is the hope of the development team that this new mechanic will not only make gas collecting more interesting, but also increase the amount of macro management skill needed to compete in StarCraft II at the top levels while at the same time making the game playable for mid level players without using some of these more advanced techniques.

If that's the case, it's a failure, since you have to use the new mechanic. Not that the new mechanic is hard, just annoying. You put all your factories, town centers and gas collecting structures in one control group (I would suggest zero) and use tab to select your gas collector every time you hear the annoying chime and push R. You don't have to go back to your base. All this really does is make you use up a control group you would have already used and push a few extra buttons every once in a while. (More advanced players will make sure the workers aren't just sitting and doing nothing for those 45 seconds.)

[Aqo]

How is that an annoyance and building workers and having to tell them to mine as they go out isn't? a WC3 player would argue that not being able to rally point onto a mineral is annoyance.

You're just not open to new stuff.

[Protogod]

a WC3 player would argue that not being able to rally point onto a mineral is annoyance. The thing is, this game isnt aimed at WC3 players. It's aimed at sc1 and sc:bw players. I think youre in the wrong subforum.


You're just not open to new stuff.

Im so sick of this argument. This isnt even an argument. This is an accusation/assertion with little to no evidence presented to back it up.

There are alot of people who simply dont like bad ideas, or ideas that dont fit into starcraft. It just happens that these ideas are new. It doesnt mean we hate all new ideas, just those ideas that dont fit into sc.

Im sorry that you disagree with peoples' opinions, but that doesnt mean that everyone else is wrong and you are right.

[Aqo]

However, the opposing side claims that he's right and I'm wrong, so what's your point? I'm wrong and he's right, because you said so?
"simply not liking an idea" doesn't feel like a real argument to me if you hadn't actually tried the idea; I'd accept that argument if someone who played the new gas mechanic said it, but right now it's just speculation.

[Protogod]

"simply not liking an idea" doesn't feel like a real argument to me if you hadn't actually tried the idea; I'd accept that argument if someone who played the new gas mechanic said it, but right now it's just speculation.

Speculation based off of conversations with staff from other forums who've played the game. Whereas your opinion is based wholly on hopefulness and blizzard-given information on forums.

I didnt feel a need to mention that, since we talked already on MSN, but I felt you needed a reminder.

[Sikawtic]

make minerals / vespene never deplete but reduce the speed at which they produce. Expansion is win without the extra micro. =D

[TychusFindlay]

Then all we would be playing were variations of Big Game Hunters which just as limited strategies.

[flanx]

big game hunters is fun if you are playing with your friends.

[Aqo]

More fun if you play on good maps.

[Protogod]

Necro much guys? Come on.

[U-238]

There's a lovely little yellow button just under your avy proto. Works like a charm. ;)

P.S. I locked/unstickied this thread because it's an August discussion that ended back in.. well august. If you really have something of quality/value to add send me a pm.