more peon options

[dude6935]

I don't know if they have addressed this at all but I think it would be cool to give players more options with regard to peons. I think they are very "flat" compared to all the other units and buldings in the game. There aren't any upgrades or alternatives. I think it would be cool to have a flying peon for example or an upgraded peon that can harvest several loads of minerals before having to move them to the base. I also think it might be interesting to explore the idea to have buildable mining aides like converyer belts to move minerals and reduce travel time for peons.

Just seems like the most basic game mechanic has been neglected because it works.

[SilverCrusader]

Just seems like the most basic game mechanic has been neglected because it works.

If it isn't broken don't fix it.

[DarkMirror]

If it isn't broken don't fix it.
This.

[Ktan]

If it isn't broken don't fix it.

By that logic, why bother doing anything new in StarCraft II?

I think it could be an interesting idea, given some legs. Expanding unit roles via research is something that happens quite frequently in RTS games and, as long as it's not done in a ridiculous way, it doesn't have to be avoided for workers.

Even something like a resource boost, allowing them to either carry more or move faster. Such upgrades would allow you to make your workers even more efficient so that you can use more of your pop-cap on your army (or use the same amount of pop-cap to build and tech faster.) I certainly think when it comes to changing the dynamic of the game, it's a better idea than the silly gas mechanic they have going on atm.

I mean, it would need to be tested, and I'm sure there are more interesting ideas available, but I don't see why we should shun it totally. There's already been some 'role-changing' to the Command Centre (making it an immobile storage pit, as opposed to a mobile but defenceless structure), which is essentially a resource building. Instead of messing with the resources themselves, if Blizzard allowed us to instead improve the workers we could avoid some of the more random and strange resource ideas we seem to being subjected to :P

[Anoiktos]

I think things like individually-researched (but cheap) armor, spell resistance, increased sight, etc. - things which reduce the damage dealt by harassing - would be nice. Universal upgrades, I feel, would too drastically change the advantage one player has over the other without a real counter (unless, for example, this upgrade was tied to the area around a particular nexus/cc/hive, etc) because it permanently changes the way in which such a basic part of the game - its economy - functions, and 'forces' a push towards this. It's the problem encountered with the 'ages' in the 'age of' games; one team gets far ahead enough that even if you do some damage to them, you're not really fixing the problem unless you engage in an arms race, which limits the capability of a player who has lagged behind in resources/units/etc to catch up.

Of course, these could balance each other out, but I don't think it'd be a simple thing to balance.

[HazzaDaShiz]

I think the thing to notice is that say the mineral gather moved from 8 to 9, that, over the course of a game, could make a huge difference.
Personally, I'm not sure how I feel about armour/weapon upgrades on workers. I think that in WC3 they did something interesting with Human Workers going to Militia temporarily, though whether that is something worth exporting to Starcraft 2 is debatable.
Really, it'd be a cool idea. Whether or not it would bring unbalance to the game, I don't know. But I'm sure that some people feel it is a less momentous change in comparison to the Thor, Queen or Mothership.

[Ktan]

I think things like individually-researched (but cheap) armor, spell resistance, increased sight, etc....

Perhaps if upgrades had a 'down' side. For example, in AoE 1, Jihad vastly improved the ability of villagers to fight and their speed, but the trade of was less resources. Perhaps an extra armour option would make the SCVs slower, or able to carry less.

Of course, perhaps some of this is getting too picky and minor to actually be worth implementing, but it's something to toy with.

[WhatIsStarcraft]

The railway system proposal was good. Each race could have such an upgrade. The terrans would have a rail line, the zerg, some sort of fast spine that carries the mineral, or gas, and finally the protoss could have some teleportation device where they put the mineral/gas, and it get transported to the nexus.

What do ya think?

[markymark]

Upgraded SCV looks like a real good idea to me. I always loved the SCV. Maybe now it can have some real big guns and fight a bit too??
Or maybe you can put together some SCV and make a big unit like the size of a tank or something. Would be nice.

[SilverCrusader]

The last thing we need is to add complexity to the basic mining system. While we're at it why don't we throw in 3 other resources as well?
You know why it works? Because it is so simple. All you have to do is mine minerals and gas. You don't have to worry about 7 different resources needed to build something. And here you guys want to complex the thing with all sorts of additions.

By that logic, why bother doing anything new in StarCraft II?
Because fixing a house that doesn't have any problems is a waste. Making additions or renovating that house isn't. Workers and mining is the foundation of the whole system. If you try to change out the foundation the whole house will crumble and fall.

[dude6935]

I agree they need to be careful not to break the system becuase it does work. It is a little boring though compared to the rest of the game. More and more peons is 99% of the economy other than getting expantions.

I like the conveyer belt/teliportation idea. These could cost gas to operate to make it a real choise about what you need more of and when.
I also really like the idea of being able to upgrade peons to carry an extra resource. And blizz has already started exploring the idea with flying building units like the nomad and the queen which could add flexibily if they could build normal buildings in difficult to reach areas.

Another possible choice could be between a normal scv for instance and and armored mining unit (AMU perhaps) that would be harder to kill and unable to construct buildings.

I just want another choice in there somewhere. And after all, isn't it inconcieveable that these races could make no progress in the area of mining technology/techniques since starcraft 1.

[DarkMirror]

The Queen doesnt fly, silly.

[Fiendwurm]

I like the idea of having different miners or being able to upgrade them.


You could upgrade scv's to move faster! Anything else would be pointless except the abilities to carry more more resources at once or mine faster.

[NoobOfLore]

I think that the ability to permenantly increase the productivity of pretty much the most crucial part of the game would cause the game to be an insta-race to max generic tech level. Being able to get the most minerals is SO MUCH of an advantage that the person who can tech to scv speed first wins, because they have most income, and can quickly overpower their opponent.
I like the Idea of 2 different peons though. One tougher, maybe slower* one that can only harvest, and SCV, that can harvest and build and everything else.

*to avoid Uber-SCV rushing.

[Ktan]

Because fixing a house that doesn't have any problems is a waste. Making additions or renovating that house isn't. Workers and mining is the foundation of the whole system. If you try to change out the foundation the whole house will crumble and fall.

They aren't fixing a house; they are making a new one. It may have some structural resemblance to the older one, but it's got the advantage of their being new construction methods available. New house, new foundations, new methods of laying foundations.

Asbestos was a common ingredient in houses some time ago, look at it now...

Also, how does improving the workers slightly amount to as much as a massive change as that stupid gas mechanic? It keeps the game closer to the original 'spirit' while perhaps adding a little risk reward.

Also, we aren't talking about OP enhancements, just little things, perhaps more akin to the conveyor belt or a worker boost. It's a bit myopic to say that upgrading workers 'degrades' the spirit of SC when part of that is the important role upgrades play in battle. It doesn't change the system radically. It just adds a new angle.

[Vezer]

Since when are we playing Age of Empires?

Just seems like the most basic game mechanic has been neglected because it works.

Neglected? THIS... IS... STARCRAFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! /spartan

[Ktan]

Vezer, is that the best couter arguement you can dredge up?

No offence, but you have to pretty myopic if you think me using analogy is stating that StarCraft should be more like AoE. That game has not aged very well at all, I was simply saying there are balance mechanisms in place for upgrading workers. Plus, it's not like only one race would get the option.

[Faiien]

I think the upgrade mechanic for peons is a much more interesting and logical approach compared to the new gas mechanic. If it becomes necessary to upgrade your peons, then why include the upgrade option in the first place? But if the upgrade were a on a upside downside track then it would make more sense but I think it's imperative that the peons can switch back and forward between the normal mode and the upgraded mode. For instance, peon gains more attack but harvests slows down 20% or speed decreases, something in that direction, imo would be an interesting concept that would make much more sense than the, "I pay more money so I get more gas," idea. Of course, the downside to this idea would be the balancing, which is one of the reasons why I think Blizzard hasn't been testing this option out as much as the gas concept. If the peons were able to increase their speed or attack power it would affect starcraft 2's gameplay highly early to mid game. Rushes would be more lethal considering that you now have 6 peons to start out with instead of 4 and early game terran pushes could be deflected much easier if peons were fast enough to reach the tanks and destroy them with zealots to absorb the hits while dragoons pick off the vultures. I guess what I' am trying to say is that the upgraded peons would need very intense balancing to work.

[dude6935]

I'm not very interested in upgrading peon attacks. That's not the purpose of peons. Their purpose is to survive, mine, and build. Upgrades/choices should be targeted in these three areas.

[KillerKow]

A key component of balance is ensuring that the players always have a choice. If a peon upgrade were to be included, you would have to say to yourself, "if you don't get this upgrade, are you at a severe disadvantage?" This demonstrates a lack of choice.

I read an article on this once. I'll try and dig it up.

[Vezer]

Vezer, is that the best couter arguement you can dredge up?

No offence, but you have to pretty myopic if you think me using analogy is stating that StarCraft should be more like AoE. That game has not aged very well at all, I was simply saying there are balance mechanisms in place for upgrading workers. Plus, it's not like only one race would get the option.

Let me clarify, I was responding to the topic, not to your post. And was "myopic" your word of the week or something? :P

[Ktan]

No, it's just a word I fancied using at the time :P

[neobowman]

I see two ways that this upgrade can be included. Either very late in the tech tree, or for it to be very expensive. I don't really like the second option as no upgrades in StarCraft are even a quarter as expensive as the peon upgrade should be if it were to be balanced. It would be a shame to head towards the AoE direction with lots of expensive upgrades. StarCraft II is still StarCraft so I think extreme expense shouldn't be used. Putting the upgrade later in the tech tree may be slightly better but I still really don't think that upgradable peons should be an option.