Fixing the Thor (v. 3.1415926...)

[3Vee]

I have to admit the Thor "look" has been growing on me - I'd like to see it in the game. In some way which justifies its existence. Granted, I have absolutely no impact on what the Blizz team does with the game.

The main problems with the original Thor concept was that it was OP and redundant. The problem with the current (as far as I've heard) version is that it's supposedly just anti-air, a role for which it looks overkill.

What if they turn the Thor into a straight-up close-in brawler? The Terrans don't have one now (and never did in SC or BW), so it would be something new; a big mech is the perfect look for the role. The game art would need a little changing, of course, but we're dealing with an alpha game here, that's not a big deal.

And anti-air? Bring the Cobra in again as an anti-air platform (and maybe anti-armor, a la the WWII German 88mm). Or make another unit with the same type of role, whichever.

[Ktan]

I honestly like the idea of the Thor as a 'campaign only' element, a bit like Dr Salvadors from Resident evil 4, or the reapers from Devil May Cry 3, some sort of 'demi-boss'. I think their fluff in the game (a secretly developed dominion weapon) leads them towards this sort of role quite well where, thus far, they don't seem to have a melee role that's anything more than redundant. Also, it means 'cementing' the Thor on the website is somewhat salvageable instead of making the Thor uber weak. Atm, without dropping something like the BC or siege tank, there isn't any clear role for the Thor, and obviously the former units are far more popular and thus not suited to being phased out over the Thor.

I like the idea, but I wonder that it's ill-suited to melee, and maybe the best way for Blizzard to cut their losses without raping the unit with the nerf-stick is simply to make it a SP enemy that crops up. If people want to use it, that's what SCUMSedit is for.

[Dem0nS1ayer]

I think the thor's crazy building attack needs to go. It's the same thing as having like 5 siege tanks attacking one building. It's pointless and overpowering.

[DarkMirror]

It already went, dude.

[SilverCrusader]

Off topic: Nice pi in the name. 3.1415926...

Make the thor what it really is, a fucking armored beast with lots of weapons. And just make it really expensive and slow.

[TitanWing]

It already went, dude.*cough*

It got axed?

[Protogod]

The ignorance in this thread is stunning:

I think the thor's crazy building attack needs to go. It's the same thing as having like 5 siege tanks attacking one building. It's pointless and overpowering.

(-1 for Demon)

It already went, dude.

(+1 For DarkMirror)


Make the thor what it really is, a fucking armored beast with lots of weapons. And just make it really expensive and slow.

(-1 for akar)

AKA it's original role as a superunit, which was deemed a bad idea already and changed?

[DarkMirror]

*cough*

It got axed?
The bombardment ability was removed, yes.

[neobowman]

I think it's too slow for StarCraft as a whole. In Brood War, the only actually slow unit was the reaver, and it was always picked up by the shuttle. Can you do that with the Thor? I don't think so. I think you should either speed it up a bit and think of another use for it, or it should be axed. Just my 2 cents.

[masterofhobbiton]

It's not that slow at all.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UaGO6x4OHX0

49 seconds in. This is the most recent vid of thors I've seen, and it actually looks okay there as a unit imo.

[Kimera757]

Since March, the Thor has had the speed of a tank moded Siege Tank.

The current Thor has two roles; anti-air and "assault". The two roles conflict, however. To meet the former role, the Thor should be cheaper (IMO), to meet the latter, it needs more hit points (or some more powerful defensive ability vs Siege Tanks) and that would increase the price.

[mranderson]

If I'm not mistaken the lore for removing golis was that they're to slow...

Ground-based anti-air support from goliath assault walkers was too limited in its mobility: all too often airborne attackers would simply move out of the goliath's range and find less well-defended targets to destroy.

...

So they removed my beloved goliath walkers to insert a bigger, slower version of them?:confused:

[neobowman]

Uhhh no. I was wrong about the thor, I was misinformed btw. The golis were replaced because they were unmanouverable. remember fighting carriers in Katrina? It wasn't their overall speed that limited them, it was because they were ground based. Thus it is now replaced with the viking.

[Kimera757]

Neobowman is correct.

The Thor would be a terrible choice for taking on capital ships. 1:1 it can actually beat a Battlecruiser, but only due to the repair ability; cost for cost, it loses to BCs. Vikings, the real Goliath replacement, are much cheaper compared to the rate they kill capital ships.

[masterofhobbiton]

Does the flak cannons (AA attack) do splash damage? If so then I think it's a good choice, sort of like a replacement for the valkyrie's attack.

[Kimera757]

Does the flak cannons (AA attack) do splash damage? If so then I think it's a good choice, sort of like a replacement for the valkyrie's attack.

Flak cannons do splash damage. They hit opponents four times each attack for low damage (4 damage + 2 vs armored) each time. Against heavily armored ships (eg Battlecruisers) they kind of suck. Against small unarmored units like Mutalisks, Thors rock.

[masterofhobbiton]

Yeah, I don't think I mind the Thor's current position at all then. :/

Maybe the assaultness should be toned down a bit, say, by removing the auto repair thing, that seems a bit stupid to me, but it's like a very large goliath with a valkyrie's missles instead of the normal ones, and then a stronger attack on the ground too because it's big and costly. :/ I haven't actually played with it though of course.

[ChimTheGrim21]

Its a good thing the zerg are coming along well, cause the Terran units are kinda lame--the thor and viking for instance. I'm gonna own me some terran bitches!

[DarkMirror]

The Vikings are badass, I'm afraid. But yes, I'm sure by the end each race will be roughly as awesome as the others.

[HazzaDaShiz]

Well, seeing as I'm changing my main race from Zerg to Terran (to broaden my horizons), I'm paying much more attention to Terran.
I quite like the Thor and Viking, really.
Obviously, Blizzard isn't amazing and they won't make everything perfect, and it would be ignorant and naive to say that 'Blizzard will do it well', but I still believe that given time for people to test it, Blizzard can/will take their opinions on board. No point not paying attention to people if you gave it to them for feedback. Hopefully, this will lead to better gameplay.
Anyway, from what I've seen of pro videos, people have been lapping up the Thor, sending them in front of Tanks and pretty much going 'eavy metal to the other base.
Then again, like I said, I've never really played much Terran so I can't see how much this will affect the style of play.

[Magmaniac]

I think the thor works simply as a meat shield for your heavy metal force behind it, while giving an anti-air support as a bonus. I would use it for sure in tank pushes and whatnot just to be the unit out front that takes the hits instead of my tanks.
*shrug*

[HazzaDaShiz]

I think the thor works simply as a meat shield for your heavy metal force behind it, while giving an anti-air support as a bonus. I would use it for sure in tank pushes and whatnot just to be the unit out front that takes the hits instead of my tanks.
*shrug*

I'm glad you said that, I didn't really know how to.
To reiterate your point, the Thor is massive, and you have to get past it to get to tanks, which means free shots galore. And if the Thor has anti-air capabilities in the final build, then they'll be a must. I'm assuming that the Viking would take the agile anti-air role, being a mo-bitch and flanking enemies, while the Thor would take the massive shield role.
All videos I've seen have at least 4-6 in a group. Lots of stoppage power.

[Sikawtic]

With their track record, it would be in no way naive to say Blizzard will do well. They take as much time as they need, they reference fans in their decisions, and they've had cult classic after cult classic.

Whatever the Thor needs to become, it will be become ;P

[Lithium]

I think the thor works simply as a meat shield for your heavy metal force behind it, while giving an anti-air support as a bonus. I would use it for sure in tank pushes and whatnot just to be the unit out front that takes the hits instead of my tanks.
*shrug*

Eh, that's what the Ultralisks's job was. I agree with MoH's idea it seems plausible to me.

[Mjolniir]

they should switch the bombardment(ie big guns on back) to a aerial supression system(ie flak storm)

[DarkMirror]

They got rid of the bombardment ability a while ago, although I don't think they replaced it with anything.

[Mjolniir]

i was thinking of the flak suppression ability replacing normal antiair, so there is no overlap with other units. it would also be death on muta rushes.

i knew bombardment was out, i was thinking in the spirit of bombardment

[3Vee]

Actually, I highly suspect that muta rush comes way before a Thor can be made. Unless you're Thor-rushing.

So far, I'm actually thinking Ktan's campaign-only idea has a lot to say for itself. Hmm.

[Sikawtic]

Campaign only is a terrible idea. That's like saying they should make carriers campaign only, or Ultralisks.

[Protogod]

Campaign only is a terrible idea. That's like saying they should make carriers campaign only, or Ultralisks.

Except that those things are, ya know, worthy aspects of the game.

[Sikawtic]

The Thor is an awesome concept... I'm sorry you don't like original units.

[masterofhobbiton]

I never thought I'd see 'thor' and 'original' used in the same scentence. Excuse me while I go find about 50,000 pictures of identical giant mechs from other games and such. :rolleyes:

I still like it though if it fits the role of an oversized goliath.

[DarkMirror]

And its purpose has gone from a clone of the BC, Siege Tank, and Goliath.

[Sikawtic]

Original regarding to the mechanics, not the appearance of the unit.

Name another unit which is built like a building...

[masterofhobbiton]

That feature was taken out a long, long time ago. It's built from the factory. :D

[SilverCrusader]

AKA it's original role as a superunit, which was deemed a bad idea already and changed?
Then they should change the entire unit concept to fit the concept that works. Cake batter doesn't make good cookies. The same applies here. The whole concept behind the thor is to be a fucking beast. It is even in the name. The name "thor" implies strength and power. It is supposed to be a giant hunk of metal with as many weapons attached as possible. And it turns out such a unit doesn't work. So they go and try to change the function of the unit to make it balanced.
However, they just made a mistake in doing so. It is like making a zergling slow and heavily armored, albeit with its same fast attack. It just doesn't fit the concept. If the concept doesn't fit what you need it to be, scrap the concept and make a new one that fits what you need it to be in order to be balanced if you worry about balance so much.
Aside from that, the thor doesn't even fit the Terran theme all too well. The Terran are all about mobility and flexibility. Siege tanks, flying buildings, and supply depots are good examples of this. The terran already have a powerful unit, 2 in fact. The siege tank and the battlecruiser. The siege tank is what I think represents the terran best. It has power, but the power is flexible and mobile. The thor is raw power. The terran are all about controlled power.
A superunit idea is only that which would fit in with the Protoss. The protoss theme is what I would say to be tremendous power, something on the level of thor. That's why the mothership concept would work for the protoss. It has tremendous power, but was limited in numbers.
The terran's are also given an industrial feel. And when you build things, you build them out of factories, and places that are specialized for mass production. Again I use the siege tank, it is an excellent example of this. The siege tank can be mass produced since it has such low cost for its power. Mass production of thors just doesn't have that feel.

All in all, cookie batter makes cookies.

[Protogod]

So many posts, yet so little sense.

The has no unique dynamics, other than it's self-repair. Not to mention that the idea and its appearance are not at all original. sikawtic I should hope you know better.

And akar: YES! Exactly!

This is why I dont like the Thor! The original idea was shite, and then, rather than coming up with a more fitting idea, they just tweaked the thor and tweaked the thor until the spotlight was on the zerg. It's ridiculous, really.

Btw, the cake is a lie

[Sikawtic]

Thor's are built at factories now? Remove them... :'(

[Sikawtic]

Most disturbing of all was the demonstration that this monster could be built from the ground up by ordinary construction vehicles in an astonishingly short time frame.Still says that on the main site...

[masterofhobbiton]

The site is never updated. EVER. Once they post something it's there for good. Do not believe anything you see on the site.

And there's an edit button for a reason. ;)

[Ktan]

Original regarding to the mechanics, not the appearance of the unit.

Name another unit which is built like a building...

That's really no original though. Sure it's not done before, but one unique feature doesn't make a cut and paste mech 'original'.

Also, just because we don't like one particular new unit, doesn't mean we hate them all. That's a rather hasty generalisation to make.

[Aqo]

1. remove siege tank
2. thor builds outside factor
3. thor replaces siege tank

new original unit without role overlapping DONE

I never liked 3D siege tanks anyway

---

More elaborate version:

[SIEGE TANK REMOVED]
New Thor information:

Walks as fast as the siege tank used to move.
Has higher hit points and armor than a tank.
No air attack.
Has a ground attack slightly weaker than what a siege tank used to have.
Bombardment ability returned.
Builds outside factory.

New Bombardment information:

Costs no Energy, has a 2-second cooldown.
Deals damage slightly higher than a siege tank used to deal in siege mode.

What do we get? A version of the siege tank which is more mobile (can shoot siege and move) but requires micromanagement (because the siege-shot is no longer automated) and can be dodged -> missiles should be slow enough so that you could dodge them with micro in long range unlike the original siege-shot which was instantaneous.
A pretty original replacement for the original Terran long-range-ground unit.

[neobowman]

Replace the seige tank? I don't think so. Far too signature in StarCraft gaming.

[Dysan]

Currently, the problem is that its abilities overlaps those of other units, thereby making it more or less redundant. I've got an interesting idea that might stir some thought.

Continuing the trend of the Goliath, the Thor could be the "ultimate" support unit. With it's enormous weapons, it can deliver good support fire for both ground and air units, but fires in a spread out "flak-like" fashion. In major battles, where units are littered everywhere, the Thor would shine and rack up damage very quickly. Against smaller groups, however, it loses it's glory when its weapons just aren't meant for pin-point accuracy. Additionally, it turns slowly, making those smaller groups harder to deal with.

As a secondary idea, what if the Thor took two other mechs to form into it? ;) The "mobile" form would be mostly harmless with decent armor and little firepower, but assemble with another to become the Thor. Of course, it would be able to deform back into two units. I think it would be an interesting dynamic

[DarkMirror]

No combining transformer voltrons kkthx.

[Dysan]

No combining transformer voltrons kkthx.No reasoning against it? I think it'd be cool, albeit very... different.

[DarkMirror]

It wouldnt fit starcraft, for one. And IMO, it would make the Thor even gayer.

[Skullflower]

Replace the seige tank? I don't think so. Far too signature in StarCraft gaming.

You could have said the same thing about the Wraith too though. Either way, I dont think they should remove the Seige Tank.

[PaiN]

I also think it doesnt make any sense for the terrans. Their staple mech unit is the siege tank. I dont think it would make sense to have it replaced by this huge mecha optimus prime thingy whereas the tank was very cost effective.

[ChimTheGrim21]

i think either you remove the thor, or the seige tank. One or the other. to Me the seige tank should be removed and they should remove the viking. And bring back the goliath.

[SilverCrusader]

Could the game even be called StarCraft without siege tanks? It wouldn't even make logical sense!
"Yeah, let's get rid of a cheap and effective weapon."
I would certainly not buy this game if siege tanks were not included (well.. Ok I would, but only for the editor).
And there is no way the Thor could replace the Goliath.
Goliath - Versatile, cheap and average-strength unit that didn't specifically focus on anti-air, but was very effective against it.
Thor - Expensive, slow, fat and strong effective against solely air.
Goliath = Terran theme of mass production, versatility.
Thor != Terran theme of mass production or versatility.

[mranderson]

Currently, the problem is that its abilities overlaps those of other units, thereby making it more or less redundant. I've got an interesting idea that might stir some thought.

Continuing the trend of the Goliath, the Thor could be the "ultimate" support unit. With it's enormous weapons, it can deliver good support fire for both ground and air units, but fires in a spread out "flak-like" fashion. In major battles, where units are littered everywhere, the Thor would shine and rack up damage very quickly. Against smaller groups, however, it loses it's glory when its weapons just aren't meant for pin-point accuracy. Additionally, it turns slowly, making those smaller groups harder to deal with.

As a secondary idea, what if the Thor took two other mechs to form into it? ;) The "mobile" form would be mostly harmless with decent armor and little firepower, but assemble with another to become the Thor. Of course, it would be able to deform back into two units. I think it would be an interesting dynamic

Since when was the support unit the biggest, highest damage unit on the field? And what if sc2 turned into cc3? I would play through the campaign, get on bnet, and than go back to starcraft in about two weeks after finding out the races aren't balanced, or the units are just not well designed. Seriously one of my friends got me to play wc3, and the first battle after three seconds I clicked my units back on instinct because nothing was dying. It just felt wrong to not have explosions, and unit frames disappearing from my unit control box. You try playing TvZ and than going to wc3 and tell me how fast wc3 units die...

And I <3 my siege tank, you're just mad because it rains death upon everyone.

[Aqo]

Could the game even be called StarCraft without siege tanks? It wouldn't even make logical sense!
They removed dragoons...

[SilverCrusader]

They removed dragoons...

Yeah, but they had a really good reason for that. The facilities where the dragoons were made had been destroyed, and the remaining dragoons were refitted into immortals. And immortals own.

[DarkMirror]

And replaced them with something 90% similar and 50% more badass.

[Kimera757]

Thor - Expensive, slow, fat and strong effective against solely air.

Not true, at least not that last part.

You should have watched the Evolving Design video. Thors are pretty badass against ground, especially because of their auto-repair. In the video, the enemy didn't focus on the downed Thors, and they came back up quite quickly (and launched back into the fight). If the enemy had targeted the downed Thors, that means they're not targeting actual fighting units.

Thors also deal more ground than air damage (according to many, many fansites). I think Thor = Goliath comes from a single statement from Karune. The Thor has changed since then.

[SilverCrusader]

You should have watched the Evolving Design video. Thors are pretty badass against ground, especially because of their auto-repair.
You've got to be fucking kidding me.

[DarkMirror]

Yeah, more and more gay every day.

[Jaxander]

I like the idea of a Thor breaking down, but an auto repair seems a bit too much for me. Perhaps force the player to bring one of those airborne SCV type units that they showed us on starcraft.org a while ago? What were they called? IDK. Anyways, force one of those to repair a downed Thor. That'd seem to make a little more sense to me.

Also, I think the idea of the Thor being a campaign-only unit was brought up, and I like that idea. What if the Thor, Queen and Mothership were each race's respective campaign-only units, used mainly as an enemy unit until a certain mission. Like, Raynor fights against Thors for a while, but then you get a side mission to steal a Thor from a Dominion stronghold, and after that side mission is complete, you can then choose to purchase the Thor unit for later missions?

This way it can be horribly expensive not only to build, but to purchase the unit schematics in the first place. And it can be imbalanced, because you'll be playing against computers with it anyways. On BNet, if players are doing Melee or FFA, then they are unable to use the Thor.

Dunno if this was proposed already or not, but this was a thought I had at work today.

[Kimera757]

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Yes. No. Yes. Yes. Maybe not. No. Yes. You'll never know.

Obviously yes, they've been talking about it for quite some time. You have to click on the Thor and spend 200 minerals, it's not autocast.

Without the Queen, the zerg would be boned. Removing it would be far worse than removing either the Mothership or Thor. Removing the Thor would also leave Terran combat kind of boring (Siege Tanks, Siege Tanks or Siege Tanks) and, since the Terrans lost the Predator, they need something to deal with Mutalisks.

[Jaxander]

Hrm. Well it was just an idea. But if the unit makes the game imbalanced, it really doesn't have a place in the game, does it?

[SilverCrusader]

Without the Queen, the zerg would be boned. Removing it would be far worse than removing either the Mothership or Thor. Removing the Thor would also leave Terran combat kind of boring (Siege Tanks, Siege Tanks or Siege Tanks) and, since the Terrans lost the Predator, they need something to deal with Mutalisks.
If you made a Terran counter to the mutalisk, the mutalisk would be completely useless you rushed to it.

[Kimera757]

If you made a Terran counter to the mutalisk, the mutalisk would be completely useless you rushed to it.

There's no such thing as an unstoppable hard counter.

If the Zerg player has Mutas, and the Terran player has Thors, you simply turn some of the Mutas into Swarm Guardians, and use them to pwn the Thors.

You'll still want Mutas for harrassing and AtA duties, however.

[SilverCrusader]

There's no such thing as an unstoppable hard counter.
Tell that to Ultra/ling/defiler.

[Kimera757]

Tell that to Ultra/ling/defiler.

That's three units. A strat, not a one-unit counter.

[SilverCrusader]

That's three units. A strat, not a one-unit counter.You said hard counter, not one-unit.

The terran had a good anti-air counter to mutalisks in BW, it is called the Valkyrie. It just wasn't as useful as the science vessel.

The fact is that Blizzard is trying to make units counter others. Key word trying. They shouldn't be trying. Rock > Paper > Scissors > Rock gameplay is boring, old, and overused. They should be making units to counter others, because it narrows use and strategy. StarCraft 1 owned because Blizzard threw in all the units that they wanted for each race and balanced them. They let the players decide how they would be used and continued to balance with patches. I don't think the StarCraft team realized how big of a counter irradiate was against mutalisks. Partly because the mutalisk micro was a glitch. Or that the Zerg would fast expand due to the hatchery being 100 minerals cheaper than the Nexus or CC.

They say they're building on those things, but they shouldn't be. A good RTS allows the players come up with the strategies.

[DarthPaul]

Hard Counter

A hard counter is a unit that will utterly obliterate a specific type of target without much chance of that target being able to defend or retaliate against it. Usually they are part of a Paper-Scissor-Rock paradigm, where A wipes out B, but can hardly touch C. B can wipe out C, but can barely touch A, and so on. Hard counters are extremely efficient at destroying their designated quarry, be it a specific unit or a type of unit defined by an arbitrary Armour Class.

Otherwise, yes, a "Hard Counter" would be ONE type of unit that defends against another.

[TychusFindlay]

The ignorance in this thread is stunning:







AKA it's original role as a superunit, which was deemed a bad idea already and changed?

I swear; If you weren't so important in this forum, you'd be just another troll/asshole.

If I'm not mistaken the lore for removing golis was that they're to slow...



...

So they removed my beloved goliath walkers to insert a bigger, slower version of them?:confused:

The Viking is the replacement .. Not the Thor .. Know that, and then rethink your post.

Except that those things are, ya know, worthy aspects of the game.

Opinion.

EDIT: Sorry, I thought this forum merged two posts together if they were posted by the same person back to back.

[SilverCrusader]

Anyway, that aside.

Hard Counter

A hard counter is a unit that will utterly obliterate a specific type of target without much chance of that target being able to defend or retaliate against it. Usually they are part of a Paper-Scissor-Rock paradigm, where A wipes out B, but can hardly touch C. B can wipe out C, but can barely touch A, and so on. Hard counters are extremely efficient at destroying their designated quarry, be it a specific unit or a type of unit defined by an arbitrary Armour Class.

Otherwise, yes, a "Hard Counter" would be ONE type of unit that defends against another.
You win.

But the rock paper scissors mechanic works, but is bland. It is like soup without vegetables or seasonings.

[Protogod]

I swear; If you weren't so important in this forum, you'd be just another troll/asshole.

But I am, so that's quite the moot point now isn't it, love?

If only I could say the same of you, no?

[TychusFindlay]

But I am, so that's quite the moot point now isn't it, love?

If only I could say the same of you, no?

You got me there!!! But .. I am important in the real world .. So ...

[Protogod]

You got me there!!! But .. I am important in the real world .. So ...

I'm sure you are, love. I'm sure you are.


Here, have a cookie :cookie:

[TychusFindlay]

Thank you! But, sorry, though.. I'm not much for bromance.

[Aqo]

Four posts back to the actual topic *sigh* the reason SC originally worked well with unit counters is because they all require player interaction. Automated actions are what creates hard counters; stuff like dark swarm and irradiate are not automated, they require the players to respond quickly, which makes countering depend more on the players' skill and not on the game system, which in turn allows more dynamic strategies.
This all comes down to less automation = more fun gameplay. A point for thought.

Auto-repair? y/n?
Bombardment? y/n?
Role overlapping? What's the difference between a dragoon and a reaver...? Reaver just requires more micro to deal more damage. Nothing stops you from doing dragoon drops, they're just easier to do but less effective in turn. Role overlapping isn't bad if there's no automation behind it.

[mranderson]

The Viking is the replacement .. Not the Thor .. Know that, and then rethink your post.

I did know that...

but the lore for removing the goliath was that it wasn't mobile enough. And so they added a large AA platform that is even more unwieldy than a goliath walker... read my post again. I don't care if they have a replacement for it, and than add another super unit that is essentially four goliaths mashed into one giant one.

Know that and rethink your post.

[RavenCrusade]

How I wish Blizzard would make the Thor a campaign-only unit.

[TychusFindlay]

I did know that...

but the lore for removing the thor was that it wasn't mobile enough. And so they added a large AA platform that is even more unwieldy than a goliath walker... read my post again. I don't care if they have a replacement for it, and than add another super unit that is essentially four goliaths mashed into one giant one.

Know that and rethink your post.

Reread my post please. You have no idea what I'm saying.

[Bad]

I think Blizz will make it perfect!