Curse you TvP!

[mranderson]

I'm having such a bad time with TvP :( I'm going to get some advice from one of my gosu friends on b.net, but if you have any advice for me, or any gosu players that I should watch their replays please tell me. I think I just need to start pumping vults more and stop wasting them, but any help or tidbits would be much appreciated.

P.S.( Help me! :P)

I can get a standard 1fac->expo or 2fac expo easy depending on distances but my late game is bad :( I keep on losing...I played a TvP and I stopped his reaver drop cold with no losses, and still ended up losing the game.

-How many golis do I get when they start to build arbiters? And what should I do (i.e. how many sci vessels, and should i tech emp right away)?
-When can I push out of my 2 base, and go for a third?

[PaiN]

Not sure how good you are but heres a TvP D+/C- level.


Shows FD defending from high pressure build and then countering a double expo

Ill guess this is slightly above your level or your level but you get the idea.


Basically keep stockpile low and know where his army is. pushing out and then getting flanked unseiged is a painful way to end the game. Vuture harass is very important on keeping your opponent on his toes and in terms of expoes 4 toss = 3 terran about. So you need to keep in mind grabbing a third because you will get out macro'd. Make sure you get upgrades (3-3 is going to kick ass) and watch your detection late game. One of the hardest things I find is keeping map control so your opponent doesnt over expo.

Hope that helped. Reply obv isnt gosu but its probably more at your level so it might be more realistic. GL

Edit: Just watched the rep I actually played pretty badly. Had a decent stockpile at the end of the game but maybe it'll help a little =p

[mranderson]

O.o Your rep the P was bad. No observers at all,and four bases with only six or so gateways if i'm not mistaken? Also that terran had 800 minerals or so early game when he was sitting in his base after his 1 fac and cc. The CC was in bad position too. And high pressure builds works a lot better when it isn't cross map ;)

And I know why I lost the game that made me angry... (achoo, macro :P). But my previous questions still stand and if you have any more advice I'd appreciate it.

[anderoo]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=72552

Sexy archive of TSL games. I don't know if you watched the TSL but 3 of the top 4 players were protoss (Nony, Draco, JF) and the fourth was a terran (Rox.Brat_Ok) so you shouldn't have trouble finding tvp reps here.
just DL the package of a player who has a style you want to imitate. I recommend artosis, because he doesn't just FD every single tvp, he mixes it up with lots of different builds.

But there are a lot of good terrans there so maybe dl a few packs.

[lammas]

Don't watch boring games of foreign chobos!~

-How many golis do I get when they start to build arbiters? And what should I do (i.e. how many sci vessels, and should i tech emp right away)?

Like 6 is fine, you can more too tho because gols are fine vs zealots too.

If you happen to have gas after all the tanks and goliaths do go ahead and make some vessels, 2 or 3 and tech emp asap of course. If you have so bad gas shortage that getting emp is some kind of issue don't make any vessels at all.

-When can I push out of my 2 base, and go for a third?

This depends on map and timings. Typically you move out somewhere around 100 suply. I think that it would take around A4 page of text to explain everything so you can stick to 100 suply until you start getting it.
Notice that you might not want to grab a third expansion at all but just push all the way to his main base.

I played a TvP and I stopped his reaver drop cold with no losses, and still ended up losing the game

Don't know how you played but in this case you quickly add factories up to 6, make 100 suply army then move out and kill him. Don't forget to place a tank and 2 turrets to main base, toss players love making second drop after fucking up the first one.

Watch iloveoov, nada, sea[shield], perfective, hanjo[fou] and midas. Oh and daze is good tvp too, compare his tvp timing push to sea[shield]'s.

[neobowman]

I was wondering why you weren't including Flash but then I remembered his build. Really hard to replicate well. I've tried.

[GroG]

1 - Mine expos and force him to take units there and kill them w/ obs - delay + you know when he exps
2 - Vult harass/map control with mines, constantly lay mines around the map and force him to break off forces of units to kill the mines - LAY MINES ALL THE FREAKING TIME - just run around and lay mines dude, and use shift click well and use the spare time while vults are traveling to macro
3 - When he has units out killing mines, use this time to move your army since you know where he's at plus he can't just run in and engage you, or else he'll lose his shit to mines
4 - Keep getting better at doing this, after a while you'll be running around with different groups of vults laying mines and shit, expoing, and macroing and controlling the map

This is a midgame style I used to employ and it worked well for me, I could beat decent players with it. Gives you time to macro, gives you map control, and helps you constantly scout. If you are playing a series with an oponent, switch it up and fly around with 2 dropships (1 with 4 vults, 1 with 2 tanks) and just FF nexus and fly away. Also a strong midgame harass technique.

Hope that helps.

[PaiN]

Personally I mine expoes so it doesnt block Nexus. Then he doesnt know I can see him and when its close to warping in I send 24 vults and just kill it before his army can get there. Im not sure if the advantages are largely different I've just tended to do it that way.

Also when you mine make sure you clean up after yourself. Zlot bombs and speedlots will fuck you up. If you seige up and mine, then push up again a toss with good UC can have his speedlots drag the mines in to tanks, so make sure you kill all mines that could be a problem while advancing.

Also when putting an offensive mine behind the enemies army if possible. This will fuck them up when they retreat (A player always does move click to retreat not attack click so mines will absolutely own) and any reinforcments or rallied units can get attacked. This can be difficult to do with huge armies but is most effective around the ~100 push

[GroG]

Mine expos to delay and don't worry about "cleaning up after yourself" it's a time waster. Bring 2-3 scvs with you and just build turrets if you are afraid of z-bomb (which rarely happens mid game btw - more common to see storm raiding)

Pain haven't seen you play but you don't sound very good.. do you even play terran?

[mranderson]

Thanks for the advice guys. I forgot I could use shift click. I'm going to get on watching those replays, and working on micro/macro :)

[PaiN]

Im C- on iCCup. Actually 2900 (1 win off!) but im on vaca for a few days and so I cant get that win. :( So ya I think im good for warboards. I wonder your skill level but eh =/ whats your iccup account?

And at Mr.Anderson Imsochobo (my opponent in that game) had a bad game i've seen him play at C/C+ level.

17-9 PvT
9-14 TvP <-- iccup for me


So TvP is my worste MU but I can play it at a D+ level and im good on the other side of the spectrum (17-9 PvT =/ ) So I do know what im talking about. I think we might be mis understanding each other I would strongly like it if you could point out where I am going wrong... >_>

But my prejudice opinion of the low skill level of warboardians in SC generally (exluding Ahzz, aqo, few other people) would lead me to believe that Mr.Anderson is playing at D level and that my advice will help him. But i could surely be wrong about him, and your, skill level

EDIT: About cleaning up after mining this is generally early game when its easy to target the 6-8 mines. Toss will generally break a contain by bombing and pulling mines in. Yes late game it would be a large hassle to kill all mines when moving out.

About expoing mining to delay will cause a 30-40 second delay max. You then lose vision and can get confused on when it will warp in. So on the contrary you can just send the alloted vults when it does warp which loses him 400 mins and the amount of time it takes to warp in the expo. You generally only delay first expo, the others is to pointless he can bring obs their fast enough

[lammas]

I was wondering why you weren't including Flash but then I remembered his build. Really hard to replicate well. I've tried.

No it was actualy because I just forgot ^^ Flash wasn't really a name when I still watched a lot of reps for education and nowadays I only follow games of my old heroes. But are there many replays of him avaible?

Anyways I don't think anyone should think like "oh its too hard build for me no sense in even trying". I don't think that are any builds that would be really suicides when used without pro uc (nadas 2 vultu => exp in tvz might be one) and its good to practise even those builds. Then if you some day play serious clan league game or some tournament you really want to win you can pick some safe builds you know you can use, other than that gogo try all kinds of builds. Besides flash camping tvp isnt hardest of all imo.

Thanks for the advice guys. I forgot I could use shift click. I'm going to get on watching those replays, and working on micro/macro

imo you shouldnt get used to shift click. Just use a hotkey and multitask, this is good practise too.

btw about this mining expoes issue: imo it doesnt matter at all. Only case it might matter is when it would be a clear mistake for toss to expand. Then you want to encourage him to expand asap and you dont place mine so that it might slow his exping or even cause him to add 2 gates more before exping.

So I do know what im talking about.

Well you shouldn't imagine too much of yourself after you beat some people who play like blind and handless monkeys. Of course nice to be 2 to 1 in stats - oh I remember the glorius days of pgt 02 when I was like, 16-5 on the first days of the season and thought "wow Iam good". rofl - but imo thinking you know what you are talking about can only damage your improvement!

So ya I think im good for warboards. I wonder your (Grogs) skill level but eh =/ whats your iccup account?

Don't worry about his skill, he is pretty bad (about the same level as you are)

[PaiN]

Well you shouldn't imagine too much of yourself after you beat some people who play like blind and handless monkeys. Of course nice to be 2 to 1 in stats - oh I remember the glorius days of pgt 02 when I was like, 16-5 on the first days of the season and thought "wow Iam good". rofl - but imo thinking you know what you are talking about can only damage your improvement!

Alright. I just posted the few things I was pretty sure on and if its wrong im open to what is correct.

[GroG]

Don't worry about his skill, he is pretty bad (about the same level as you are)
Do you enjoy being a douchebag? I'm not here to call anyone out or claim to be awesome, I'm just saying I've never seen anyone attack and kill their own mines while pushing. Have you?

As for my ICCUP rank, I was like 9-9 with random. Then I lost like 20 games in a row trying to do 1 fact expand and I quit.

[PaiN]

lammas is (or was I forget if he still plays) a good starcraft player and going along with that personality he claims the authority to shit on everyone else inferior.

Anyways GroG I can post reps where mine splash kills im saying if your going for a contain you should try and refrain from setting up your tanks on top of mines, and if mines are there you should kill them first.

[GroG]

Just because you're good doesn't mean you can talk down to people.

Can you post reps of people kill their mines as they push? That's the real question. BTW I'd like to point out the change in your position - we were initially talking about midgame and you mentioned this during the 100 pop-push. Then you mentioned to do this early game when armies were small. Now you are saying to do this when you have toss contained. So, which is it?

[PaiN]

Also when you mine make sure you clean up after yourself. Zlot bombs and speedlots will fuck you up. If you seige up and mine, then push up again a toss with good UC can have his speedlots drag the mines in to tanks, so make sure you kill all mines that could be a problem while advancing.

What im saying is that when you contain a toss you want to clean up after yourself. Most time whenever you set up a contain you will slowly push in too kill whatever units and mine infront. So its safer to kill mines where you plan an sieging tanks on top of so zealot bombs and speedlots to splash your tanks to death.

I never said this should be used at the ~100 push. Just for an earlier game contain (if it gets set up) dont siege on top of mines.

Also when putting an offensive mine behind the enemies army if possible. This will fuck them up when they retreat (A player always does move click to retreat not attack click so mines will absolutely own) and any reinforcments or rallied units can get attacked. This can be difficult to do with huge armies but is most effective around the ~100 push

^I said that can be used around the ~100 push because it is effective. And what I mean is its just advice. You said to lay mines all the time which is helpful and if you get the chance mine where units will be rallied or retreating.

[lammas]

Alright. I just posted the few things I was pretty sure on and if its wrong im open to what is correct.

lammas is (or was I forget if he still plays) a good starcraft player and going along with that personality he claims the authority to shit on everyone else inferior.

I play occasionally. But I don't claim any kind of authority nor do I have some kind of monopoly on shitting over people, everyone on this forum is free to shit on me too, because Iam a very medicore player myself and never actually archieved anything when it comes to starcraft.

But why did I shit over you two?

Well first off I never post things like "do you even know what you are talking about?" and imo I - if someone (well ahzz too) - could do that. So I didn't really appreciate it when grog posts that.

Then you answer: "I know what Iam talking about, Iam C-". Which is a little bit absurd. Not that you wouldnt know enough to post. Or that even if you did not you sould not post.

Do you enjoy being a douchebag? I'm not here to call anyone out or claim to be awesome, I'm just saying I've never seen anyone attack and kill their own mines while pushing. Have you?

Do you enjoy being so babo when you go writing things like "do you even know what you are talking about?"? That had nothing do with any mines, and yeah Pain is right. You often dont want to push over your own mines and therefore you must kill them (of course you can also do fine without killing them but then you must pay a lot of attention on vulture placement, tank spreading etc). Ive seen boxer do this for example and it is very standard play (however situations where it is needed are quite rare in modern tvp play and because of this its not seen all the time).

That's the real question. BTW I'd like to point out the change in your position - we were initially talking about midgame and you mentioned this during the 100 pop-push. Then you mentioned to do this early game when armies were small. Now you are saying to do this when you have toss contained. So, which is it?

It is obviously any situation where a mine is potentially more dangerous to you than to your opponent. This can be when using joyo, when doing timing push, when in middle game with a bit bigger army, or when you have limit.

[PaiN]

Meh. I see what your saying and it sounds pretty stupid of me but what ever.

And thank you for clearing the mine thing up =/

[GroG]

Well first off I never post things like "do you even know what you are talking about?" and imo I - if someone (well ahzz too) - could do that. So I didn't really appreciate it when grog posts that.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you two are the only people who can question people. Do you guys have that posted somewhere in the rules?

He said to destroy his own mines, and I said I've never seen it done (still haven't), and I asked him if he even played terran. Then you came in and told us we both sucked yadda yadda yadda. Apparently I'm "babo" now? Sweet. I had no idea I was coming off as an ass, I just asked a simple question and you came in and flamed me.

Bottom line is, I don't think I've ever seen people kill their own mines. No one seems to be posting an abundance of replays of this happening, nor is anyone really even discussing this point. You guys just want to get in a pissing contest about who's stomping grounds we are at and who can say and do what. I'll leave you two to it then, I just don't care enough to bicker about this crap.

Also, reinstalled the game again, GroGtheCorrupt@useast hit me up sometime if anyone's interested. Or if you see me on WC3, bitch at me and I'll switch games.

[PaiN]

Wow this seems like that stupid HT's shouldn't be used in PvT matches i brought up. Accept I sounded dumber but the point is first of all how does it possibly not make sense. Why is killing your mines that you plan on seiging on top of going to harm you in anyway? Also, lammas said he has seen it in select pro games as have I =/

[lammas]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you two are the only people who can question people. Do you guys have that posted somewhere in the rules?

Oh now you misunderstood me so badly. I didn't mean I have the right to say shit like that. I meant that I - if someone on this forum - would have the right to . But I don't have such right and I don't do so.

And you have all the right in the world to question people. But imo you do not have a right to act all cocky like you were some great player and go around asking "do you even know what you are talking about?".

I just asked a simple question and you came in and flamed me.

I just stated a simple fact and now you started massive e drama about it?
If I say "yeah grog, what do you even know about sc lol?" do you find it a simple, polite question? I don't but maybe we just have diffrent views about communicating, you asking "do you even know what you are talking about?" sounds a little offensive and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

Bottom line is, I don't think I've ever seen people kill their own mines. No one seems to be posting an abundance of replays of this happening, nor is anyone really even discussing this point.

I did discuss the point, yes? And I dont understand this need for replays. I have seen all the released iloveoov replays before 2007 and most after. He never kills his own mines and he often loses 15 units at once to zealot bombs. Now he is a really good player and he never shoots his mines, does this prove that it makes sense not to kill them? Mostly in sc its true that everything that makes sense can be seen in pro replays (not saying that this wouldnt if one would bother searching) but even if this would not, it would still be rational to kill useless mines that can only harm you.

[GroG]

Here's the part I'm having problems understanding, Lammas. First you accuse me of misunderstanding you, when clearly you are having a hard time expressing what you mean when you type. You say you have no right to question people, but you also say you do? You don't tell people they are wrong, yet you do all the time? I started e-drama yet you are the one telling people they are bad, babo, and playing against people who play like blind handless monkeys (when they are establishing their credibility by telling their rank)? Please explain what the hell you mean, because you are just contradicting yourself all over the place, I'm having a hard time following you.

Not to mention that you tell me I'm wrong and that you should kill your own mines, yet you say there's no need for replays (I'm honestly flabbergasted, all you ever say is to watch reps) and that you should kill mines, even though pros don't do it. Yet.. if it's good, why wouldn't they?

I stand by what I said earlier, and I don't think I was rude at all to Pain. I just said he didn't sound very good, and I asked if he even played terran. I didn't say he was bad and trash talk him or anything. I also still think killing your own mines is a waste of time better spent on other things in the game - and I still have yet to see a rep of a pros killing their own mines while pushing.

[SolidSamurai]

KK, I can't dl the replay because I have no idea which folder to store it in, in order to view it. 'Open' doesn't work because if I select starcraft from programs list, it simply opens to game and does not play the replay.

Help?

[anderoo]

KK, I can't dl the replay because I have no idea which folder to store it in, in order to view it. 'Open' doesn't work because if I select starcraft from programs list, it simply opens to game and does not play the replay.

Help?


Save it in your starcraft folder under maps-->replays
Then it'll be on the replay list in SC

[PaiN]

lol dont know if this is worth it but I was browsing through the replay discussion threads looking for replays to watch (was pretty bored) and Proto posted a Rep of him verse GroG. The replay didnt show but after nw.lost posted

Proto, you had it!!!

But very good game, i rate that as a 10/10 for entertainment of Grogs force being decimated by his own mines.


And I found it slightly humorous because GroG has been saying that killing your own mines is pointless and well...found this very ironic. Sadly I cant view the replay to download =[

[mranderson]

THat new warboards update erased most of the old attachments. But...









Well you shouldn't imagine too much of yourself after you beat some people who play like blind and handless monkeys. Of course nice to be 2 to 1 in stats - oh I remember the glorius days of pgt 02 when I was like, 16-5 on the first days of the season and thought "wow Iam good". rofl - but imo thinking you know what you are talking about can only damage your improvement!

Don't worry about his skill, he is pretty bad (about the same level as you are)

And never stop playing sc for a week to play DOTA! NEVER! My bo's are so horrible :(

[GroG]

And I found it slightly humorous because GroG has been saying that killing your own mines is pointless and well...found this very ironic. Sadly I cant view the replay to download =[
I didn't push over my own mines and lose shit, if I remember right I laid my mines poorly during a battle and it cost me some units - that was why it was funny. So yes it's sad that you can't view the replay instead of jumping to conclusions.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Bad mine placement is bad mine placement.

[Cpt.Chronic]

mr.anderson, I observed and played a game against you a few days ago, and I can tell you right now that your main problem is that you're too passive. I don't think you even attacked me until you were maxed or very near maxed, by which point I had a shit-ton of bases and 20+ gateways with arbiters, psi storm and everything else. If you play this style you need to do lots of vulture harassing and/or dropships on expos. But personally, I don't recommend this style.

As a suggestion to try to mix things up for you and to get you to be less passive, you may want to try something like, FE into 6 factories with 2 making tanks and 4 making vults. Then push his base when you have around 12 vults and 8 tanks using scan to locate his army so you know where to lay mines and siege. At this point, expand and rally your factories to your push. It takes good control and good mine placement for this attack to work, but if you have those two things, it can be very devastating, while at the same time distracting his attention so that you can expo.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Grog, have you ever done a 1 base push? 50% of the time when I do this I will destroy a mine or two because I will place them in haste, but then I may need to advance a tank to that point in order to reach his expo nexus or w/e. There are many other situations, but my point is that when you are doing a push so early, every unit (especially tanks) is extremely important so you don't want to lose your whole push because of bad mine placement.

[PaiN]

Adding on to what Cpt.Chronic an FD push into 7 factory then scout with vult and if you can win attack at like 60-70 pop and if not attack at 110-120 with sweeps while expoing. It may delay your third depending on playstyle but 7 factory macro can catch a protoss going for an early third unless they are really on their macro

And thankyou thats exactly what I was trying to say to grog

And mranderson if you could post reps that would be great