We have a problem . . . the Terran Legion has gone 'Toss!

[Veeger]

It's terrible, I know. I started playing around with the Protoss a few months ago, and to be frank I cannot get enough of them. Their style more reflects my own: one or two forces of strong units, vs. numerous weaker units (ie: Terran and Zerg -- I never play Zerg). So, I am coming to ask for some expert advice. I've done some basic web-searching and searched these forums a bit, but have had trouble finding some concise strategies.

I mean, basic stuff I can figure out for myself. Zealots alone are great for small, 2-player matches, but God help you if you try that stunt on a 4-player map (lol). Don't rely too heavily on photon cannons, but always have a few around your base, etc., etc.

What I need is more advanced build orders. I've managed to, on my own, figure out 7-pylon, 10/11-gateway, 12-pylon, 13-assimilator, 15-forge. But after that I tend to get a little lost.

I have found myself going straight for a cybernetic core asap, then almost immediately getting the Citadel of Adun. Works great for zealot rushes, but what should I shoot for after that? Any 4-player map 128x128 or larger, and after I remove the first computer threat near me, by the time I find the others, they have a more balanced force than I do.

Yes, I'm building up confidence in the race against the computer before trying out a few humans (I have cable internet now -- hoping to get a few games in this weekend). Once I get to the point that I can, as I can do with Terrans at the drop of a hat, defeat 6-7 computers at one time I will be willing to come try some of y'all out.

Like I said, I'm looking for a bit of advanced help. What do you recommend I go for after, or even before (in lieu of) the Citadel? I realize part of it is going to be based upon me and my own personal gameplay, but I want some opinions of those of you who play Protoss on a regular basis. Do you find it easier to go ahead and get the Robotics Bay up to full capacity first (ie: the support bay and the observatory built and in the process of upgrading the units), or do you go ahead and get some Air units out in play while getting the 'Bay up and running?

I am an air-superiority guy generally speaking, but recognize and respect the power of the Reavers, and I am just beginning (in the last few games) to truly appreciate the indespensable nature of the observers.

Thank you for your time,

ps: those of you who are seething with anger at me for dissappearing, yet again, after trying a second time to get the 'Legion up and running, I apologize. This has been an extremely bad, bad, BAD year financially for me and my wife. Weddings tend to do that (got married last month!). But, things are calming down, and two weeks ago we got the Charter Bundle, so we now have a permanent connection to the internet that doesn't require dialing up, or hooking up the cell phone, or any of that crap. I will be on much, much more often, and more regularly than I have in a long time.

[Vezer]

Try Cyber Core at 14, then expand when you have around 4-5 goons. Try to perfect this build order, it's just so damned handy. And scrap the useless forge, early game. (Unless PvZ)

Usually, I don't make any zealots early game, and just go straight for goons. Works well vs early vults, tanks, zealots and anything else T/P can throw at you. (If you're playing PvP, you can almost count on them not attacking you early game, unless it's Zealot harrass)

Congrats on your wedding. :D Come to Op SWBK (inactive of as late) or Op BWlove (for gg's)

[Veeger]

Heh. I might have to take your advice about the dragoons. My game with Siege_Commander went worse than I had expected it to go. Zealots are definitely useless against Terrans.

[Vezer]

Useless unless they try to Gundam you. Or if you can catch 'em 2 fac-ing. (Which I find is still better to have goons) *Cue Ahzz to talk about insane PvT strats*

[PaiN]

Actually no. Zealots are very good in PvT. Opening 2 gate build is very good and can easily apply quick pressure on the opponent while you expo and transition to goon.

Middle/Late game zealots are great but the REQUIRE speed. You can actually win games with just zealots (And not just playing a total noob). The general Idea is Zealots > Tanks > Goons > Vultures > Zealots in PvT.

I would suggest altering your b/o depending on what race you are against but if you are not sure generally I would go

8 pylon (scout)
10 gate
12 gate
14 pylon
~20 core (get a few lots out first)
then goon > expo while researching range and speed.

Speedlot / Goon is a safe bet against most odds. From their I find it easiest to just get ups and continue zealot/goon/HT. Or just go carrier. Reavers can be annoying. Requires alotta multitasking so not fun if your lazy.

[mranderson]

Give your b.net name ;) My main is T and I'm having such bad times with the mu TvP :( Which reminds me...

look for su]ghost_op on west ;)

[Veeger]

The moderator's are becoming a little slack around here since the last time I was on. Back in 'the day' posts like the one above this that are completely off topic would have been deleted within 5 minutes. (lol)

To be polite and answer the question, my b.net screen name is veeger.wb. And I play on US East along with the majority of the other players around here.

Back on topic -- Siege_Com., if you're out there waiting for me, I'm going to sign on here in a minute after a quick smoke. I have a few ideas I want to try on your tank-building ass.

[Protogod]

I get the feeling that you are using too many cannons/forge too early. Forge its really superfluous until you have like 3rd expansion or 4th expansion. Cannons can be replaced by goons for the sake of efficiency. If you're worried about detection, just do a standard 1 or 2 gate tech build and get observers. If you do it right, you should have observers by the time the other player has any particularly threatening force of mines/Dt's/lurkers.

[Veeger]

Really? Then why don't you get onto swbk and come show me? ;-)

I actually have gotten away from using too many cannons, believe it or not. You remember my obsession with bunkers in the past I'm sure. That last game with Siegie I only used 3 cannons at the entrance of the main base. Well, it ended up being my only base -- by the time I tried to expand he had the entrance surrounded and I couldn't get out.

My reason for getting a forge so early is to get the shield upgrades. I always figured it would be worth it to have my units last a little longer, given the shield regeneration and all, but I do concede that if my forces can't get to the baddies (vultures) then what good is the extra shield protection?

[Protogod]

shields are actually the worst, most useless upgrade in the game.

[PaiN]

Veeger I think your playing the game based on theory more than what actually happens and should listen more to what proto and other people are saying.

Shields are the worste upgrade to get because they cost the most and most units have more health than shields. So the only time you go early forge is

A. PvZ (protecting FE, +1 attack)
B. Can be used to counter a terran MM/Cheese build (EX if you scout 3-4 rax in base 2-3 canons at your ramp will hold off along with 1 gate zlots while you tech to reavers/HT)

The reason you lost the above game may have been because you had 3 canons instead of 4 goons =/.

And more on the shield thing. Vultures do 20 dmg to shields, so 20 - 1 = (5% difference) where as they do 9 DMG to goon HP so 9 - 1 = (12-13% difference) and the shields will regenerate whether they are upgraded or not so thats irrelevant

[Veeger]

What, in my posts, leads you to believe I am not listening to Proto and Siege? Proto and I spent a good hour discussing how things work last night after our game.

[PaiN]

Im Glad you and proto spent an hour discussion I of course could not know this. Also People have been saying to "scrap the fast forge/canons" and you were still using it in your later posts.

Also when Proto gave you some advice you said

Really? Then why don't you get onto swbk and come show me? ;-)


which seemed almost a challenge of his skill than an "Okay I'll try that". But im sorry I think I was over critical when I posted before.

Anyways hope your improving

[Veeger]

I was merely taunting him because I knew he was online, but was not in the channel.

Anyway, it is irrelevant. Hence the wink. You weren't being critical, per se, you were just implying I wasn't listening, when I was. I wasn't going for cannons, I was going for shield upgrades, which Proto explained why not to bother with them.

[PaiN]

Alright. I had no idea when read out of context it seems that it was a challenge. Anyways is your protoss improving?

[Veeger]

I think so. My last game with Proto, I was able to get 2 expos out on him long before he thought to look for them, lol. That was a big step for me. Those who have played me in the past know that I have a tendency to wait too long to expand.

If only had had gotten more units out in that game, I might have actually given him a challenge.

[Protogod]

I think so. My last game with Proto, I was able to get 2 expos out on him long before he thought to look for them, lol. That was a big step for me. Those who have played me in the past know that I have a tendency to wait too long to expand.


For the record, I was playing Terran (my off-race). :P

[Cpt.Chronic]

Really? Then why don't you get onto swbk and come show me? ;-)

I actually have gotten away from using too many cannons, believe it or not. You remember my obsession with bunkers in the past I'm sure. That last game with Siegie I only used 3 cannons at the entrance of the main base. Well, it ended up being my only base -- by the time I tried to expand he had the entrance surrounded and I couldn't get out.

My reason for getting a forge so early is to get the shield upgrades. I always figured it would be worth it to have my units last a little longer, given the shield regeneration and all, but I do concede that if my forces can't get to the baddies (vultures) then what good is the extra shield protection?
You should NEVER get cannons before you expand in PvT. Basically, the only thing cannons are used for in PvT is to protect your probes from vult harass. And that early, 200/200 is a lot to spend for an upgrade. It's better (and cheaper) to upgrade weapons first. Try expanding before the Terran can move out and set up a contain. Also, until you get observers, put a probe outside his base to see when he moves out. That way you can attack him while he's moving and before he's sieged and has mines set up.

[Cpt.Chronic]

I think so. My last game with Proto, I was able to get 2 expos out on him long before he thought to look for them, lol. That was a big step for me. Those who have played me in the past know that I have a tendency to wait too long to expand.

If only had had gotten more units out in that game, I might have actually given him a challenge.
How many gateways did you have? With 2 expansions you should have 8-10 gateways.

[PaiN]

Adding on to what Cpt.Chronic said each base is going to be able to support about 3 gates while you spend money to tech, if your constantly spending your money that is. So, late game it averages out to about 4 gates a base because its very hard to be constantly building *and* microing a large army.

[SolidSamurai]

It's terrible, I know. I started playing around with the Protoss a few months ago, and to be frank I cannot get enough of them. Their style more reflects my own: one or two forces of strong units, vs. numerous weaker units (ie: Terran and Zerg -- I never play Zerg). So, I am coming to ask for some expert advice. I've done some basic web-searching and searched these forums a bit, but have had trouble finding some concise strategies.

I mean, basic stuff I can figure out for myself. Zealots alone are great for small, 2-player matches, but God help you if you try that stunt on a 4-player map (lol). Don't rely too heavily on photon cannons, but always have a few around your base, etc., etc.

What I need is more advanced build orders. I've managed to, on my own, figure out 7-pylon, 10/11-gateway, 12-pylon, 13-assimilator, 15-forge. But after that I tend to get a little lost.

I have found myself going straight for a cybernetic core asap, then almost immediately getting the Citadel of Adun. Works great for zealot rushes, but what should I shoot for after that? Any 4-player map 128x128 or larger, and after I remove the first computer threat near me, by the time I find the others, they have a more balanced force than I do.

Yes, I'm building up confidence in the race against the computer before trying out a few humans (I have cable internet now -- hoping to get a few games in this weekend). Once I get to the point that I can, as I can do with Terrans at the drop of a hat, defeat 6-7 computers at one time I will be willing to come try some of y'all out.

Like I said, I'm looking for a bit of advanced help. What do you recommend I go for after, or even before (in lieu of) the Citadel? I realize part of it is going to be based upon me and my own personal gameplay, but I want some opinions of those of you who play Protoss on a regular basis. Do you find it easier to go ahead and get the Robotics Bay up to full capacity first (ie: the support bay and the observatory built and in the process of upgrading the units), or do you go ahead and get some Air units out in play while getting the 'Bay up and running?

I am an air-superiority guy generally speaking, but recognize and respect the power of the Reavers, and I am just beginning (in the last few games) to truly appreciate the indespensable nature of the observers.

Thank you for your time,

ps: those of you who are seething with anger at me for dissappearing, yet again, after trying a second time to get the 'Legion up and running, I apologize. This has been an extremely bad, bad, BAD year financially for me and my wife. Weddings tend to do that (got married last month!). But, things are calming down, and two weeks ago we got the Charter Bundle, so we now have a permanent connection to the internet that doesn't require dialing up, or hooking up the cell phone, or any of that crap. I will be on much, much more often, and more regularly than I have in a long time.

Well if you like blowing shit up parred with lots of general distruction and mobile tactics, you'd belong with the terran. :P

Plain and simple.