Zerg Queen

[SilverCrusader]

In the latest blizzcast we got an update on lots of Zerg things, but primarily the queen. It was said that the queen was playing the role of a queen of the base, and that it buffs defenses around the base.
I think this is a bit different than the Protoss Mothership where it is one of those cool things you can get, but probably won't (like Terran nukes). By adding the queen blizzard is effectively limiting one of the things that they wanted to keep in. That is adaptability and flexibility. I can just see how a Zerg Queen will be a staple in any Zerg base, and feel way to Warcraftish where you have to have a hero (aka Zerg Queen) at your base at all times to avoid getting run over.

[DarkMirror]

You know, maybe thats a good thing, in a way. Personally, it would be nice to have differences between the races that are more than just the units. Different play styles are good to, and this is a neat counterbalance for the Zergs ultra-expansionisms.

Would still be nice to have weaker, mass producable Queens, but I can deal with not having that.

[IrishDutchman]

I can just see how a Zerg Queen will be a staple in any Zerg base, and feel way to Warcraftish where you have to have a hero (aka Zerg Queen) at your base at all times to avoid getting run over.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. It just turns defense into a more micro-oriented task. I think it's a great idea. It should make for some interestine strategies for both Zerg and the other two races.

[vIsitor]

Regardless, I still feel that making the Queen a unique unit is a bad idea in general, as the micro it introduces in innately limited & inflexible. And there have been more than enough suggestions for limiting the number of Queens other than the much-contrived one-per-player rule.

Besides, its not as though there aren't alternatives to the Queen for adding macro-micro. It's a cute idea, I'll admit, building on the Zerg "Hive" philosophy, but persuing such lore-related ideas--especially concepts that aren't canon yet--at the expense of game-play is a bad idea, in my opinion. Perhaps they can make it work, but they've already admitted that its giving them difficulties.

[RavenCrusade]

You say that this change was more for lore, and not gameplay, but I disagree. Blizzard has avoided sacrificing either, and I don't believe they will change that pattern anytime soon. This new change seems to be the opposite of what you said, it seems to be more for gameplay and not lore. Think about it, in lore, the Zerg's strong point would be adaptability and manuverability(sp). The new Zerg Queen seems to be more of a counter to the Zerg's ability to "infest" an area and spread out everywhere. This way, only one base can have a superb defense, leaving more bases open to assault. Of course, the Queen's ability to shift in between bases still keeps the lore in check, it's not like the queen is a building, stuck in one spot for all eternity.

[SilverCrusader]

Actually, the ability to spread over everywhere fits lore more than a giant alien queen stereotype.
I just don't like the idea of "hero" type units. When you add those to the equation then the strategies become limited to being forced to always have this single powerful unit as fast as possible. They should do what they did with the mothership. Tone it down and take away the limit.
Terran have very powerful nukes that can decimate entire bases (you can have more than 1)
Protoss have a mothership that just rapes everything (you can have more than 1)
And the Zerg have some queen that buffs up defense buildings (it doesn't fit the Zerg and you can only have 1)
Which one is the odd one out?

Then again they could always fuck up SC2 as much as they want, I'll just keep playing SC1.

[Anoiktos]

Terran have very powerful nukes that can decimate entire bases (you can have more than 1)
Protoss have a mothership that just rapes everything (you can have more than 1)
And the Zerg have some queen that buffs up defense buildings (it doesn't fit the Zerg and you can only have 1)
Which one is the odd one out?
So... You're advocating each race having the same playstyle mechanics?

Zerg assaults have always been about massive numbers of units attacking. If queens could be made en masse, it'd either be overpowered or derivative (why make mass queens when you can make mass zerglings and some ultras) - zerg don't need another ground-based attack unit.

I just don't like the idea of "hero" type units. When you add those to the equation then the strategies become limited to being forced to always have this single powerful unit as fast as possible.
To be frank, consider the queen like a building. Like, say, a spawning pool that can attack. Yes, everyone makes a spawning pool. How is this strange? And there's a very specific reason not to quickly rush for a queen: zerg are a prime rushing race. (note that dev talks about zerg in SC2 emphasize 'speed') This means that if you're up against a zerg, and they rush you, you know they probably haven't yet gotten their queen and so are more vulnerable. On the other hand, it opens up the zerg to *also* play a gradual, protected-expansion sort of play, considering that any army based on the queen will be defensive (until there's creep in the enemy base) because the queen is so slow off creep.

Also note that the latest blizzcast mentioned that the queen was more a unit that got *hunted down* than went a-hunting; this suggests that she's a liability as well as an advantage.

Note that SC2 is a much faster game than SC1; between nydus worms, warp-in, reapers, infestors, medi-dropships, more powerful ghosts, roaches, banelings, and burrowed ultralisks, a moment's inattention can be taken advantage of by an opponent to annihilate a base. It makes sense, then, for zerg, who are a more aggressive race in the original, to have a dedicated defensive unit to help them deal with this sort of eventuality.

Where, if the queen was absent, the player would have to curtail offense to ensure units were in the right place for defense, or if the queen was unlimited in number, either the zerg player would play more defensively due to greater population cost or zerg would be unfairly resistant to hit-and-run tactics compared to othe races, instead they have balanced it so that the zerg can continue their aggressive nature without worrying overmuch about pinpoint strikes, *but* still be vulnerable to carefully planned harassment (multi-front attacks, queen sniping).

You're thinking of the balance, so far as I can tell, in terms of StarCraft 1; they are, in speed and execution, different games.

[Mattimeeleo]

Lol... I hope the Queen doesn't meet the same faith as the Protoss Mothership (as you guys all know how it's not a "Super-unit" anymore)

[3Vee]

I'm just hoping SC2 doesn't become (relative) fail b/c some designer can't get over his obsession with having really big/super units in the game. So far, none of Mship, Thor, Queen look easy to balance or v. workable at all, to me. Queen is maybe the most viable, imo, though.

[Protogod]

Queen is definitely the most viable unit of the 3 attempted one-per units.

I actually like it. In sc2, each race is more of everything. This means Zerg will be more infesting, swarming, and faster. The queen is a necessary counterweight. Whereas the Mship and Thor were just made to look pretty, the queen serves as a purposeful liability. If the zerg can take every expo on the map within 3 minutes, thats no fun. But if you can kill those expos almost equally fast (assuming they dont micro) the game becomes much more competitive again.

[ChimTheGrim21]

I'm not a fan of the Thor. Especially when all I see pros doing is massing Thors vs Thors in TvT games, but the queen makes way more sense. I think they should just make the Thor a 1-build-only unit as well if they are going to give each race a unit like this.

[ForTheSwarm]

Which video has pros massing Thors vs. Thors?

[apostolos]

Which video has pros massing Thors vs. Thors?
http://www.starcraft.org/files/media/player.php

browse in the unofficial gameplay section.

on topic:Having only one queen makes sense according to the lore since she makes the eggs(in lore always,Zerg are still produced by larvae in-game)

[WhatIsStarcraft]

Can you only make one Mothership at a time, or have they changed that?

[Protogod]

It changes so often, right now, it's impossible to knwo for sure.

[NoobOfLore]

I like the new queen...And about the thor massing, NOBODY is pro at SC2 yet, since it's not out. It is likely and possible that they are just testing out the new dynamic it introduces...Massing thors is about as effective as massing siege tanks. And I can only imagine they are SLOW TO BUILD and WAY FRIKKEN EXPENSIVE! I'm sure they can be countered better my marines then by more thors.

The queen seems like a great way to keep the Zerg from expanding all over the map. Having multiple queens would make it so the zerg could defend all their bases at once, and that would give them an unfair advantage.
And I have NO IDEA what is going on with he mothership right now...

[ForTheSwarm]

Thors vs. marines? Lol no. Each marine will do like 2-3 damage tops to the Thor unupgraded. The Thor probably has splash damage too.

[NoobOfLore]

But marines attack quickly, and you can get a good deal of them at a time. Otherwise, if they splash like the tank, just stand near the Thor and let it splash itself. And Vikings seem like they might be good to, depending on the damage type of the Thors(probably explosive).

[ForTheSwarm]

I guess it really depends on the cold hard stats. Vikings, idk. If they are in air mode, raped. Land, maybe.

[NoobOfLore]

Thor don't have an air attack I believe...

[ForTheSwarm]

I heard that the Thors are now mainly anti-air. "The Thor has become a powerful anti-air weapon, employing WW2-Flak-style AoE guns against its aerial foes, but with a far less potent ground attack." (from some SC2 blog). But we really should be talking about the Queen, as that is the main topic.

[ChimTheGrim21]

Not much is known yet about the queen. I think Blizzard is being extremely up-tight with info since they are experimenting different gameplay options.

[WhatIsStarcraft]

Yeah, they don't want us to know everything yet, because they wouldn't be able to keep the hype up if everyone knows everything.

[LDawgg]

Yeah, they don't want us to know everything yet, because they wouldn't be able to keep the hype up if everyone knows everything.

Oh wow, thank you sherlock for that stunning desplay of observation.:shiftyr:

[WhatIsStarcraft]

No problem, I will keep those stunning comments coming! :shiftyl: