My first melee map

[StorM]

I made my first serious melee map today and this is how it looks:http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nifleheimvg7.jpg
I was thinking if you guys with more experience then me could tell me if theres anything I should add or fix? Would really appreciate it :)

[Durandal]

Can you upload the full sized picture via an attachment in your post?

Sorry, I'm just a detail whore. I for some reason can't make out the map all that well.

[StorM]

Can you upload the full sized picture via an attachment in your post?
Sorry, I'm just a detail whore. I for some reason can't make out the map all that well.

Heres a link to the image: http://www.ladda-upp.com/bilder/4989/nifelheim just click it and it goes fullsize ; p

[Ling666]

Aesthetically, I think it could use less straight cliffs. Specifically along the middle right and middle left sides. And possibly less of the spaces where there is plain snow and not as much varied terrain like in the main bases. In terms of balance, it might be unfair if terrans played and used tanks+scanner sweep to fire across the thin cliff wall between the expansions. So the expansions could be farther apart.

Like all advice, feel free not to listen to me if you disagree :).

[StorM]

Okey thanks = )

[neobowman]

I'm assuming you are using the campaign editor that came with SC. Don't. I reccomend scmdraft2 (sorry too tired to get the link) as you can do a variety of different things with it. About the map, the ramps leading into the middle aren't really enough for flanking. This is of vital importance for Protoss against Terran and on this map, there is no way that the Protoss army can get past those choke points. It is also important for other matchups so you should widen those ramps or make new paths.

[StorM]

Im using scmdraft2. Good point, Ill make the ramps wider.

[Mjolniir]

if you're using scmdraft, whynot make reverse ramps?

[StorM]

if you're using scmdraft, whynot make reverse ramps?

This is the first map Ive ever made with scmdraft so Im quite new to everything. What is reversed ramps and what does it do?

[exterminator]

Reversed ramps lead to opposite direction than normal ramps. I've included a picture to clarify this. In the picture the ramps at the top are reversed, while the ones at the bottom are normal. Reversed ramps require a bit more effort than the normal ones, since they are not included in any map editor.

>>>Here<<< (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=29077) is a tutorial how to make them (in this tutorial they are called inverted ramps).

[StorM]

Reversed ramps lead to opposite direction than normal ramps. I've included a picture to clarify this. In the picture the ramps at the top are reversed, while the ones at the bottom are normal. Reversed ramps require a bit more effort than the normal ones, since they are not included in any map editor.

Okey thx a lot

[StorM]

Does anybody know how to change a unit sprites HP? Like the Psi disruptor? Ive tried changing its HP in unit settings for player12(neutral) but nothing happens.

[exterminator]

When you play the map you have to use "Use Map Settings" setting and not "melee" or "free for all" or anything else. If I recall correctly you have to modify some things in the map if you use "Use Map Settings" (UMS), or it won't work (players don't have buildings so with default triggers they lose immediately when the game starts, race is preset and not user selectable, etc).

[StorM]

When you play the map you have to use "Use Map Settings" setting and not "melee" or "free for all" or anything else. If I recall correctly you have to modify some things in the map if you use "Use Map Settings" (UMS), or it won't work (players don't have buildings so with default triggers they lose immediately when the game starts, race is preset and not user selectable, etc).

Its a melee map so playing UMS wont do it. The Psi Disruptors are neutral and are placed to block and make a choke tighter but also beeing destructable. I already know how to place them and get them to work in melee mode but I just want to change their HP from 2000 to 4000 or something.

[exterminator]

Hmm... observer maps are UMS and they work like melee. It is possible to make it an UMS map that works exactly like melee map (but you just have to select "Use Map Settings" and not "melee").

It might even be that I was wrong with my previous statement and that it will work just perfectly if you just use UMS without any other edits, but I'm quite sure that you that least have to change the races to user selectable. SCMDraft should create melee triggers by default (if you didn't uncheck that selection box thingy when you created the map), so I believe you don't have to worry about them. So try changing the player races for starters.

It has been too long since I made any kind of UMS maps... I can't remember if there are other things you should modify, and this computer I'm using right now doesn't have StarCraft or any of the editors installed so I can't test it myself.

Edit: So just try modifying the race settings and if it doesn't work, tell how it doesn't work.

[StorM]

Sorry I dont understand how the UMS stuff would help me change the unit sprites HP. Simply all I want to do is change the unit sprites HP so that they are harder to destroy by players wanting to free up some space to their naturals choke.

[Cpt.Chronic]

There's 3 basic things you need to do to open up the map and not have everything be a clusterfuck in the middle.

1. Reverse ramps at top

2. Widen the 4 ramps leading to the middle

3. Add 4 more normal sized ramps leading to the middle below the double gas expos on either side

Also, since you're reversing the top ramps, might as well move those mineral-only expos to the corner nooks

And make sure tanks can't reach from one natural to the adjoining natural.

Oh, and one more thing (for now) is that you should move the naturals closer to the ramps coming from mains to make fast expanding more viable (or move the ramps closer to the naturals).

[exterminator]

Sorry I dont understand how the UMS stuff would help me change the unit sprites HP. Simply all I want to do is change the unit sprites HP so that they are harder to destroy by players wanting to free up some space to their naturals choke.

When you play melee the game ignores all changes you have made to unit HPs and uses the default values instead. When you play UMS the game uses the values that you have set up.

[StorM]

Ah okey I see what you mean now exterminator sry I was a little slow there ;p Im in school right now but when I get home Ill try the UMS stuff you wrote about =)

K thx for the pointers Crhonic

[StorM]

1. Reverse ramps at top



How do you reverse ramps? And why? I watched the ramps leading to the mains on Python and I noticed they were "hand made" with tiles. Is that what you mean by reversed? Because I tested to transport big units down the ramps on Python and on a "staredit ramp" and they go down the ramp in exactly the same way. Explain please = P

[Cpt.Chronic]

exterminator already posted a link on how to do both inverted (reversed) ramps and widened ramps here:
http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=29077

[StorM]

I downloaded some maps to copy their inverterd ramps and I noticed that none of them that were made with the "Ice" tileset had inverted ramps :S

[Dem0nS1ayer]

Go to http://www.panschk.de/mappage/maplist.php?orderby=mapname&PHPSESSID=9e36bd58652fe319e88142f5232e9232 and look for all the snow ramps. ;)

[StorM]

OKey thanks for the link :)

[StorM]

This is how the map looks right now:http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/Nifelheim%202.0.JPG

[ForTheSwarm]

I think you should get rid of 2 geysers in the middle.

[StorM]

Why? Those are the only expos with gas except for your main and natural if youre playing a 2v2. But feel free to explain why you think I should remove them =P

[ForTheSwarm]

You forgot the 2 geysers each on the left and right.

[StorM]

What do you mean where did I forget geysers?

[exterminator]

What do you mean where did I forget geysers?

Here:
Why? Those [middle expansions] are the only expos with gas except for your main and natural if youre playing a 2v2. But feel free to explain why you think I should remove them =P

Those are not the only expansions with gas because you forgot the ones with two geysirs

[StorM]

I think you should get rid of 2 geysers in the middle.
Okey I see now. I wasnt aware that those were there ;p Must have placed them there for some weird reason and then forgott to remove them. So you think there should be 2 gas in the middle? If it turns into a half-map macro battle then both players have 8 gas(altough only 1 will probably controll the middle and hence have 10gas. It sounds like a lot but the middle is very hard to hold I think). What do you think?

Edit: I studied Troy and noticed in case of a half map control scenario both players have 8 gas but most maps have 6. But I wanted this one to be kinda high res so isnt 8 gas on the map I made apropriate or is it to much?

[BlademasterSlsh]

In the beginning of your post you mentioned wanting to have Psi emitters as essentially destructible Doodads. Although you can't make the Psi emitters destructible, you could place them around, blocking access to places and thus forcing people to sacrifice an SCV/Probe/Drone or two to get there.

[StorM]

Actually you can place destructable Psi emitters by placing them as "unit sprites". So that has been fixed and they are now on the map.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Those minerals at the top of the ramps seem like trouble. First off, you need to have it open from the get go because you don't want just 1 path in any map. Secondly, seems like those mineral blocks could easily screw up unit pathing. It just makes playing on the map tedious, which you never want in a map.

Also, what is the point of all those mineral blocks in the middle of expos? Just seems like another thing that's tedious and un-needed. The reason some maps have mineral blocks at expos is so that terran can't build a CC on land and then float to the island expo (so instead they have to wait for a shuttle like the other races would-- a balance issue). But all of your expos are connected by land anyway, so the mineral blocks are pretty much pointless.

[StorM]

Update:http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/--Nifelheim%202.0.JPG

[Cpt.Chronic]

Cool, you got the big reverse ramps in. The map is shaping up nicely. One thing I noticed was that you're going to want to make both high grounds at 6 and 12 equal. Right now you have landable terrain at 12 high ground and not at 6. I'd go back and make sure there's no landable terrain at either spot. Also, there's a spot at the 6 high ground that looks really narrow...might want to widen that a bit so you can't siege from one side to the other.

Another thing is that expo directly in the middle looks a bit funky. I can't tell for sure, but there doesn't seem to be enough room to build in the middle of it (if you could, that would be one hell of a huge expo), and if you have to build to the outside of either gas, that makes the minerals really far away from the base. I'm not really sure the best way to go about fixing this. You might could try pushing them out a bit further to the sides, which would allow two bases to fit on the interior of either expo. Also, I'd probably remove 4-6 mineral patches total, to make it 7-8 patches per middle base for two reasons-- 1. It will open up the middle a bit more. 2. 10 patches per base is really a lot of minerals and if terran can hold the middle and expo there, he pretty much hands-down wins the game. The middle was much more open the previous way you had the middle expos designed, and considering this map already favors Terran, you're going to want to try to make things as difficult as possible for them, which means the more open the map is (especially the center) the better.

For your first melee map this is actually looking quite nice and you've already made a lot of progress as a mapper just during this first map. After your next update, you should upload the map and I'll play-test it.

[Cpt.Chronic]

Or, for the very center expos, you could put them like you previously had them in this pic:
http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/Nifelheim%202.0.JPG , although put them even further in the corners of the center to allow the widest possible 4-way gap through the center, but cut the gas in the geysers down to 2,000 instead of 5k. And I'd go with either 4 or 5 patches per expo. I dunno, just throwing out some ideas that will keep your initial design and allow the middle to not get cluttered.

[remarkable12]

yeah looks pretty good.

[Dem0nS1ayer]

Ooohhh I like what you did with the doodads!

[Cpt.Chronic]

So were you ever going to upload the actual map file?

[StorM]

Here is the map: http://data.fuskbugg.se/skalman01/Nifelheim.scx