Do doodads make a difference?

[Loser]

I'm trying to make an RPG map. There are 3 different factions that each start out in different places and each have a different hero selection (I'm planning at least a couple players per faction but I'm not sure how to incorperate 9 human players into a game if it's possible at all).

Anyways, do people really care about those features in the terrain (called doodads)? I wasn't sure if it was worth putting them in my map or not.

Thanks.

EDIT: Also, is there any way to make a map bigger than 256 x 256? It looks like I'm going to have a hard time fitting an actual RPG for each faction into each third of this map =/.
EDIT again: Hmm, on second thought, no one said that they each had to be completely separated for the first part of the game... hmm... I know, instead of separating them, I'll just start them off as allies and unally them later. Meh I can't think of anything else =/.

[DarkMirror]

No, you cant make bigger maps. And yes, people do like doodads, just not a shitload of them. Featureless maps = disgusting looking.

[Loser]

Hmm, ok thanks. Is there any way to make more than 8 human players though?

EDIT: By the way, is there any particular tileset that I should use for an RPG (ice, fire, installation, jungle, etc)?

[Dem0nS1ayer]

Nope, 8 is the max for humans. You can have players 9-12 do stuff via triggers.

[Durandal]

is there any particular tileset that I should use for an RPG

That's circumstantial. What's the RPG about?

Also, yeah, doodads make a huge difference. They spice up otherwise dull and boring terrain. And in RPG's especially, interesting terrain is a must.

[Loser]

That's circumstantial. What's the RPG about?

Also, yeah, doodads make a huge difference. They spice up otherwise dull and boring terrain. And in RPG's especially, interesting terrain is a must.

Hmm... come to think of it, I'm horrible at making storylines. For some reason, everyone else seems to think it's incredibly easy to think of ideas for maps =/. I might end up just making an open RPG.

[Durandal]

How can you even begin to make a map without having some sort of an idea for it? There's no distinctive rubric that you can use to gauge the difficulty in trying to come up with ideas; creativity and imagination are relative.

I suggest you go back to the drawing board before you try to get anywhere.

[Starcraft78cwal]

No, you cant make bigger maps. And yes, people do like doodads, just not a shitload of them. Featureless maps = disgusting looking.
Exactly.

Please, for the love of God, include doodads. Maps look so...plain without them. Doodads add a spice and feel to maps. ^_^ Just don't overdo it, as DM said, as that may be rather disastrous. Too much of a good thing, eh?

[FrankZ]

Yup, doodads make a lot of difference. They put more content into your map. In other words 'it adds more detail to the picture'.

As for the RPG, are you planning a campaign-like space-type RPG?

~Fz

[Polkaman]

Doodads also add some strong strategic points, like trees, provide cover. Ue them anyway ^^

Terrain? If your gona make an original RPG that won't stand out, use Jungle or Badlands. Otherwise for a more spiced-up look use Space or Ice.

- GL

[Durandal]

Well, you can mass certain doodads depending on their type. Like the little grass doodads that are in the dirt and walkable, as long as you mix them up and make them look random and natural, then you can throw them all over the place.

However, getting tree doodads and clicking and dragging around the map - No.

[Loser]

Doodads also add some strong strategic points, like trees, provide cover. Ue them anyway ^^

Terrain? If your gona make an original RPG that won't stand out, use Jungle or Badlands. Otherwise for a more spiced-up look use Space or Ice.

- GL

Oh ok I had just started on twilight =/. Ice seems kind of unoriginal to me since there was an open RPG map that was already an ice map. Space and RPG just never went together for me, never understood why. Twilight's looking good so far though (haven't started with doodads yet though).

By the way, I've seen maps that start out with stacked buildings. How do I do this?

[deadkat]

Get ScmDraft 2 (http://www.stormcoast-fortress.net/cntt/software/scmdraft/download/?PHPSESSID=db185b6f467d19fe5c419dd372b82dec).

In the [Options] menu at top, go to [Units], then "Place buildings everywhere" and "Allow stack."

[Loser]

Get ScmDraft 2 (http://www.stormcoast-fortress.net/cntt/software/scmdraft/download/?PHPSESSID=db185b6f467d19fe5c419dd372b82dec).

In the [Options] menu at top, go to [Units], then "Place buildings everywhere" and "Allow stack."

I've been using ScmDraft 2 (or whatever version I have) for some time now, I can't believe I didn't notice that. Thanks =/.

[Durandal]

Twilight is actually a really cool terrain type, kudos to you if you make something interesting with it. I really don't recommend Ice, though. What a horrific tileset for any kind of extended terrain.

[Loser]

Hmm, another question: What's the difference between a normal beacon and a flag beacon?

[Durandal]

A flag beacon, if left alone, will spawn a flag on top after a few minutes. This can be circumvented by disabling the doodad state of the beacon, which will make the flag not appear, and the "Place COP" function not work.

The flag beacon was primarily intended for the little used "Capture the Flag" game mode of Starcraft.

[Loser]

A flag beacon, if left alone, will spawn a flag on top after a few minutes. This can be circumvented by disabling the doodad state of the beacon, which will make the flag not appear, and the "Place COP" function not work.

The flag beacon was primarily intended for the little used "Capture the Flag" game mode of Starcraft.

Ok thanks, I'll probably just use them for hero and faction selection, so no one will see them after the first couple minutes anyways =).

[atrocity3010]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can also give the beacon to a neutral player and it won't spawn a flag.

[Loser]

Is there any way to change the image of a unit with just ScmDraft? I was hoping I could make some of the extra units look different so I could have more than 2 units that looked, moved, and attacked like zerglings and stuff like that.

[Durandal]

You may as well just disable them, it adds aesthetic effect to it too.

An easy way to do it is to create a 2x3 location called "Disable" and use the following trigger;


Conditions:
'Player' brings 'at least' '1' 'Terran Flag Beacon' to 'Anywhere'

Actions:
Center location labeled 'Disable' on 'Terran Flag Beacon' owned by 'Player' at 'Anywhere'
'Disable' doodad state for 'Terran flag beacon' owned by 'Player' at 'Disable'
Give '1' 'Terran Flag Beacon' owned by 'Player' at 'Disable' to 'Neutral'
Preserve trigger.

All this does is as long as a certain player (It can be whoever you want, since it gets switched to Neutral at the end) brings any Beacons to anywhere on the map, the trigger will automatically go one by one and disable them. Works particularly well with a hyper trigger.

If you preplace the units for a player with shared vision before they transfer to neutral, then it should give that cool effect where the beacon is invisible and there's just the glow residing on the ground.

Is there any way to change the image of a unit with just ScmDraft? I was hoping I could make some of the extra units look different so I could have more than 2 units that looked, moved, and attacked like zerglings and stuff like that.
No, this can only be achieved through a mod, which can only be played on Battle.Net if all users in the game are running the mod.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you can also give the beacon to a neutral player and it won't spawn a flag.

I don't know about that, that'd probably be an easier solution if correct :D

[atrocity3010]

I just tested a neutral flag beacon versus a computer-controlled one, and I was right. The comp-controlled one spawned a flag, whereas the neutral one didn't.

[Loser]

Hmm... how do I make it so that certain units (like werewolves and vampires) change from night to day? When it's night, they all change to the night form. It was done in a map I mentioned in one of my other threads (won't let me upload it because it's already on a thread) but I don't know how they did it. How do I make it so that the new form is placed at the same location as the old form?

[atrocity3010]

If the person only has one of each unit type, you can just center a location on the unit and then move/remove it and put the night form in that location.

If there are multiple of each unit type, do a condition where if a player brings the day form to anywhere during night time, center the location on that unit and replace him. Then preserve the trigger.

[Loser]

If the person only has one of each unit type, you can just center a location on the unit and then move/remove it and put the night form in that location.

If there are multiple of each unit type, do a condition where if a player brings the day form to anywhere during night time, center the location on that unit and replace him. Then preserve the trigger.

Hmm, that makes sense, thanks, I'll try it once I'm done with all the terraining and unit placement stuff =D. I'll probably do doodads last though, I'll show you a demo version of it without doodads when I get to that point.

By the way, should this take me a while (like in months) or am I a loser if I'm not done in days?

[atrocity3010]

In my opinion no truly good UMS map takes only days to make unless it's based on a fun original concept that's relatively simple to implement. RPGs in particular are time-consuming to make.

[Durandal]

Map at your own pace, seriously, who gives a shit how long it takes.

Use a switch to differentiate between night and day as well.

[Loser]

Ok I'm not sure how to use switches but I'll try (you can make a trigger to set it or clear it, but how do you determine what that does?)...

[xgmx]

well this 1 survival horror map has a really cool doodad thing, it has HELP... spelled with nuclear missile dots.

[ForTheSwarm]

Ok I'm not sure how to use switches but I'll try (you can make a trigger to set it or clear it, but how do you determine what that does?)...

Put the "If Switch 1 is Set" in the conditions.

[Loser]

Ok thanks, I'll try it once I get to that point (I'm doing the basic terrain and stuff first). Don't know how to go about making the terrain though. Trying to imagine an entire map from scatch is harder than most would think (though everyone else does it just fine) =/. Currently I'm trying to create locations of note and work my way from there.

EDIT: Hrm, I think I'm going to end up making this an RPWSS (role playing with some strategy, a term I made up). I think I'll have it to where as you progress in the game, you can buy more units and such and eventually take over your starting city, or work together with the scv/probe/drone hero to build an empire.

[Durandal]

That's usually the underlying concept behind Open RPG's, except the players usually work together rather than trying to build civilizations. I like the idea though, go with it.

Okay, an example for an easy night and day switch. Say for our purposes we use Switch 01 and rename it to "Day - Night". Since all switches start off cleared, you would make it so that when the switch is cleared, it would be daytime, and when the switch is turned on (set) it would be night.

You would then have a count-down timer of maybe five minutes that goes like this:


Conditions:
Countdown timer is 'at most' '1' game seconds.

Actions:
Modify countdown timer: 'Set' to '300' seconds. (5 minutesx60 seconds =300)
'Toggle' 'Day - Night'
Preserve trigger.

What this does is that when the countdown timer ends (at most 1 second), it resets the timer back to five minutes, and in the process toggles our night and day switch. When you "toggle" a switch, all it does is reverse it from its current position, so say if its cleared and you toggle it, it becomes set, and if it's set when you toggle it, it becomes clear. Then you would just create your triggers based on which state the switch was in.

So this trigger would periodically toggle between night and day every five minutes. Get it?

[Loser]

That's usually the underlying concept behind Open RPG's, except the players usually work together rather than trying to build civilizations. I like the idea though, go with it.

Okay, an example for an easy night and day switch. Say for our purposes we use Switch 01 and rename it to "Day - Night". Since all switches start off cleared, you would make it so that when the switch is cleared, it would be daytime, and when the switch is turned on (set) it would be night.

You would then have a count-down timer of maybe five minutes that goes like this:



What this does is that when the countdown timer ends (at most 1 second), it resets the timer back to five minutes, and in the process toggles our night and day switch. When you "toggle" a switch, all it does is reverse it from its current position, so say if its cleared and you toggle it, it becomes set, and if it's set when you toggle it, it becomes clear. Then you would just create your triggers based on which state the switch was in.

So this trigger would periodically toggle between night and day every five minutes. Get it?

I'm still trying to figure out what my map is going to look like =/. Am I supposed to do the triggers first?

Hmm, I'll PM the storyline to you, just a sec.

[Durandal]

I like the story, it's very quirky. You don't really need much more than a basic layout storyline wise, as most people usually don't pay attention to the plot. That doesn't mean you should ignore it altogether, however, as every map needs a basis.

The same goes for the map itself; you should have a good layout of the terrain before you start triggering. Some people work section by section, like working on 1/8th of the map and triggering that portion, then doing the next one. That works fine too.

[Loser]

Should I put the story in the briefing or make it optional to play it once the game starts?

[ForTheSwarm]

Putting it in the briefing makes it optional anyways.

[SilverCrusader]

I have a good suggestion. Make the plot have humor, or else no one will give a shit. Sorry to say it, but thats the way B.net works.

[NoobOfLore]

If you plan to have Multiple units change from night to day mode quickly, you are definitely going to need hypertriggers, and it should do something like this-
Btw, I don't have the trigger format memorized, so this will look a little sloppy.

Condition: Switch "DayNightSwitch" is set(or unset, depending on whether It's day or night).
Effect: (1) Move location "UnitConverter" to "whatever unit you want to change" at "anywhere." (2) Kill/remove One "whatever unit you want to change" (3) Create One "whatever unit you want it to change TO" at "unitConverter" (4) Preserve trigger

And also, I didn't hypertrigger that for you, under the assumption you know how.

[Loser]

Hmm, actually I don't know how to do hypertriggers, but the FAQ should say. Sigh, I get bored too easily. I'm not like most people who can envision what the map looks like and draw it out, I get confused when I try to do something without knowing what it is =/. Any way to get around this?

[ForTheSwarm]

A hypertrigger has the condition of always, and the actions are 63 (wait for 0 milliseconds) and one (preserve trigger). Copy it about 3-4 times.

[Loser]

Is that for every trigger or do I do that for each individual trigger? And wouldn't the extra triggers make it slower?

Still don't get how to do this terraining. I take a look at the map and either get a headache or start panicking. I can't design a map when I haven't the slightest clue what it's supposed to look like. Is there a way to hire someone to design the terrain for me while I do all the triggers and units and such?

[BlademasterSlsh]

hum... I offered to do that for you for the July contest, but doing some team work before hand would be good... Send me what you have (make sure you have all/most of the locations already on it, send a document with all you want and I'll get on it.

[ForTheSwarm]

Is that for every trigger or do I do that for each individual trigger? And wouldn't the extra triggers make it slower?

.....
It's a whole trigger by itself.

[Durandal]

Look. Calm down about the terrain already, we all realize by now that you have no clue what to do for it. If you just don't get it when you go to start terraining something, you need to go back to the drawing board, because you don't really have an idea. The terrain to a map is integral, and if you can't even visualize a location or setting (not inside a map editor, I mean just visualize a location or setting) then you're not ready to start putting the pen to the paper.

Lucky for you though, you have Blademaster there.

You simply put the hyper triggers under a player that has no other triggers with wait actions. They're totally independent, and they cause all triggers in the map to cycle 11.8 times per second. But be sure to copy the trigger 3 times and give it a comment, because they're very bulky.

[Loser]

Ok thanks Durandal, that answers my question... I think. Well, I'll try doing everything but the terrain that I can think of, and I'll pm it to blademaster if I manage to get anywhere. Thanks Blademaster, I'll remember to mention you in the objectives/briefing =). (This probably won't be the map I enter in the contest, seeing that they don't want you to start ahead of time)

[Durandal]

What confuses you still?

[Loser]

Nothing as far as I know, I'm just never sure of anything =/. Working on map whenever I have time. I'm probably going to end up removing the boss and tweaking a few other things.