SSBB Tourament Play

[T-Dawg]

So the other night my friend and I were discussing tournament play in the Super Smash Brothers arena. We noted how the pros play:

No items.
Stage: Final destination.
4 stock lives.
8 minute time limit.

I posited that I think this set up was only 3/4 correct. I agree that items should be off. I think it should be stock. I also recognize with stock, it is necessary to include a time limit so that matches aren't stalled. What I disagree with is the stage selection.

While final destination is probably the best stage -- I believe that it arbitrarily favors certain characters over others. It favors characters that can use the horizontal and flat stage to its advantage. Characters like Ness, Lucas, Samus, etc. that have a large vertical component to their game are favored against.

In any tournament that uses a prelim round set up to advance to elimination rounds, I believe that stage selection should be random (with no custom stages allowed -- unless the tournament is about using custom stages) because that arbitrary preference is reduced. My friend asked me if this conflicted with having items off then, and why not have items on, because items are random. My response was this: because you can turn items off (eliminating that arbitrary preference) while you cannot turn off the stage. Therefore to eliminate arbitrary preference random stages do that the best.

What do you guys think about tournament set-ups? How should the rules look to make the tournament most fair?

[sumo88]

I agree with your friend. In a competitive tournament format you should look for a person's ability to duel the other with nothing to hide behind. I argue that the best player, competitively speaking, should be the best duelist. This is to say that when it comes to a one on one match, skill to fight the opponent with no obstacles or tricks (this includes items as you have pointed out) is the way to maximize the chance that you will end up with the best duelist. This being said, Final Destination, while not perfect, is undoubtedly the most balanced, straightforward stage. The duel mentality, as I stated before, sets the precedent for a level playing field showdown i.e. mono e mono. I mean who would want the finals to be played on something like Rainbow Cruise? It just isn't epic. Final Destination encourages both players to concentrate solely on the other without any distractions and a minimalization of arbitrary factors. While pure randomness has an argument for fairness, why not control the environment and try to maximize the fairness yourself? I understand the dilemma, however, the spirit of a one and one contest should harken back to a wild wild west showdown feel. You, me and nothing in the way. That, to me, is the true test of skill when it comes to competitive/tournament level SSBB.

[GroG]

Well, I don't know much about tournament play. I've pretty much played with my friends, I played once at an anime con my sister dragged me to in a public tourney, where I got my ass kicked at (melee, not brawl). In SSBB, my experience is mostly on online FFA and offline against lvl 8/9 comps.

Anyways, your rules make sense, although you do need to consider there is a randomness to smash brothers that makes it unique. By taking random events completely out of the game, you are removing players stength of adaptation and playstyle. Some people do extremely well focused on a single person, whereas others do well with tons of stuff going on and hectic battles taking place.

Personally, I'd do random stage and items. Although, with the smash ball in the mix and the fact that it seems like you die much easier at lower %'s, items are really overpowered in this game compared to the last so.. I'm not sure really. Maybe test it out and see if it's fair? I honestly haven't played a lot of 1v1's in this game.

Final destination does kind of suck, IMO. At least pick something with a few platforms or something. Stage is incredibly boring.

[Vezer]

Final Destination is the only level that forces you to focus entierly on your oppenent. Items imbalance the match.

eg. An assistance trophy spawns directly beside your oppenent when you tow are completely apart from eachother. How fair is that?

Also, levels that can harm players imabalance things as well.

eg. You're playing Areo Port, and a car runs you over, you have 30% and it's a KO. They come too fast for you to dodge. Fair?

Levels like Lylat Cruise are perfect, as the lay of the level makes it hard to shoot things at eachother (lasers, pit's bow, etc.), and the level won't kill you. Also, the level isn't boring like Final Destination.

[sumo88]

Final destination does kind of suck, IMO. At least pick something with a few platforms or something. Stage is incredibly boring.

Also, the level isn't boring like Final Destination.

I have to point out the irony in both these statements. The fact that Final Destination is "boring" makes it the perfect candidate for a dueling 1v1 match. Why is it boring? Because there is no "catch." It is you vs. your opponent with nothing in the way. The casual brawl player wants the excitement of crazy things happening that you have to adjust to. Tournament level brawl should be devoid of such things.

To T-Dawg: What do you say about stages which spawn their own items? Does that introduce a problem to your theory that while stages can't be turned off, items can be.
For example, the bottle cap looking things on Distant Planet, the apples on Dreamland, even Mario Bros. it proves infinitely easier to get ko's though using the turtle's.

Two novel questions to think about.

Say in Spear Pillar when the stage and controls get the "mirror effect" is it really a true test of skill to see who can fight the best while playing backwards?

What do you guys think of Zero Suit Samus and how she will always spawn with pieces of her suit around her...does this give her an unfair advantage or is it something more like Diddy Kong's ability to spawn banana peels? Keep in context the fact that this is 1v1 tournament play.

[Vezer]

Say in Spear Pillar when the stage and controls get the "mirror effect" is it really a true test of skill to see who can fight the best while playing backwards?

While adaptablity is a skill that is extremly important in SSBB, the Spear Pillar level can also kill you.

What do you guys think of Zero Suit Samus and how she will always spawn with pieces of her suit around her...does this give her an unfair advantage or is it something more like Diddy Kong's ability to spawn banana peels? Keep in context the fact that this is 1v1 tournament play.

In order to turn to Zero Suit, we would need to turn on Smash Balls, and spawning pieces of her suit is part of her super smash anyway.

And I would say we don't need to worry about Diddy Kong, it's not like anybody plays him anyway. :P

[sumo88]

You can turn into zero suit samus by, i believe, holding R and Start on the cube controller at least at the stage selection screen. And I play a hawt diddy kong. =p

[Vezer]

You can turn into zero suit samus by, i believe, holding R and Start on the cube controller at least at the stage selection screen. And I play a hawt diddy kong. =p

Orly? Gnarly. I'll have to try it.

And I'm pretty dece with Diddy-K, just because of how fast he is. He lacks finishers though.

[Darkslayer633]

so tournament style in effect takes all of the fun out of the game and basically makes it exactly like every other generic 2d fighter to ever exist?

I think I'll stick with having my fun in 4 player random items awesomeness kthx

[T-Dawg]

so tournament style in effect takes all of the fun out of the game and basically makes it exactly like every other generic 2d fighter to ever exist?

I think I'll stick with having my fun in 4 player random items awesomeness kthx

Thank you for adding nothing to this thread with that comment.

@Sumo: I have an issue with stages that spawn items, yes, but I rather have that than arbitrarily select against certain play styles. All play styles should be valid in a tournament set-up for SSBB because that is how the game designers balanced it.

And obviously the game was balanced with items in mind as well, but in no possible world is it acceptable to die at 20% because your opponent grabbed a smash ball. That is clearly IMBA and unfair and should be void from tournament play.