Small Rant

[ZergSwarms]

What is with the whole concept of the extended and reversed ramps? This seems to be the new "pro map" concept, but something is amiss here; using that ramping system effectively eliminates some of the strategic depth of having to go around, then up the ramp. Not to mention the height advantage. For UMS I would be perfectly fine with it, but for melee, it effectively eliminates some of the strategic depth. Granted, it can be situational, but still. I find it mildly amusing when pros contradict themselves, in this case specifically by altering the playing field in a way unintended by Blizzard. And it's not something like penguin-plug that enhances the game; that new ramp system removes strategic depth. How pro is that?

Also, it imbalances the game. Instead of Zerglings being able to run up a ramp side-by-side, you can now have, what, a hundred? This effectively does a dis-service to Terran. I could go on about the conceivable imbalances that come with this ramping style, but I wont.

Comments/thoughts/additions?

[Toucan]

I have been out of touch with PvP and popular maps for some time, I would really appreciate it if you could post a copy of a map that uses what you annoyed with.
I would just like to see.

[Ahzz]

And it's not something like penguin-plug that enhances the game; that new ramp system removes strategic depth. How pro is that?
how stupid is it that for 3,4 and even some two player maps its impossible to make a positionally balanced map, where you're praying before every game that you wont start in the horrible position?

using that ramping system effectively eliminates some of the strategic depth of having to go around, then up the ramp.
how is that strategic depth? another stupid assumption. the thing is, if people think its important to go around, or if it adds strategic depth, they will make the maps like that. if it has no real difference, but to annoy the players, then they wont.

I find it mildly amusing when pros contradict themselves, in this case specifically by altering the playing field in a way unintended by Blizzard.
blizzard never meant to make starcraft perfectly balanced either. it just became like that.

Also, it imbalances the game.
why do you think that? Wanna hear my opinion? It BALANCES the game. I can't mention single balanced map that doesnt use wide ramps or ramps turned to the 'wrong' direction. By the way, lost temple isn't balanced.

Instead of Zerglings being able to run up a ramp side-by-side, you can now have, what, a hundred? This effectively does a dis-service to Terran.
so a hundred can run side by side. now thats theory too. I can't remember a single pro map like that, except maybe python on corner expoes, but thats pretty much the exception. You should also be aware that maps with a lot of high ground and small amount of ramps or if they're very narrow in general FAVOR terran. The thing is, it's EASIER to make balanced maps with wide ramps. Of course, it is possible to do one without, but those are far more simple in design (which imo, is not a good thing) and you have to cut off many options you could have had.


You rant how it wasn't 'intended by blizzard'. If you ask me, not including wide ramps was a flaw in their own editor. and I still don't get how it removes any 'strategic depth'. I could definately mention some maps where they have all these weirdo ramps and yet they still have to go around a lot like you said. In which case its strategic depth. Adding all these funny ramps ADDS more strategic depth and so many more options that its much nicer than you make it sound.

Also, before actually coming in ranting about the imbalances of the game and the common maps, I'd actually wonder wether I'm on the level to do so. I'm pretty much sure your knowledge of balance is so narrow yet that making threads about imbalances is a little bit silly. And when you have more experience, you won't complain anymore, thats a promise.

Instead of Zerglings being able to run up a ramp side-by-side, you can now have, what, a hundred? This effectively does a dis-service to Terran.

already quoted this but whatever, gonna do it again.

Why don't you go watch a few pro games before you complain about this as an imbalance? You will see how that is not imbalanced at all. Though you might feel that smaller ramps favor terran, they also may work as an disadvantage. For example, if you're being chased by a superior army of lurkers and lings, instead getting away they will be torn to shreds.

Lately, as you may have noticed, I've been posting news from the pro scene at starcraft.org and included some videos of their games as well. I recommend that you check them out and wonder again of the imbalance. The latest games I've given coverage of have even english commentary by tasteless, so you're in luck.


All in all, you've only tried seeing the negative sides of adding wide ramps. How about trying to see the positive and how many options it adds for every option it takes out.

[SilverCrusader]

You make it seem as if Blizzard is backing you. Which really they are not. Blizzard is in support of the StarCraft mapping community. They are simply amazed at what we do. They actually want us to do things the way they weren't meant to be used. In almost every StarCraft interview with blizzard that deals with mapping you'll ALMOST ALWAYS hear: We are simply amazed at what the community is doing, they do stuff we have never thought of! OR We love to see what the community comes up with next, it is simply amazing! And in StarCraft 2 interviews: We can't wait to see what the community will do with this, we know we'll see some really creative mods/maps.
StarCraft mappers take pride in how far they push the editor. Because they're the only ones in the entire world who have actually done so. The WCIII editor hasn't been pushed to the limit the StarCraft one has. There is a projectile plotting system for UMS maps. And have you looked at the new pro map Troy? Simply amazing. It adds incredible strategy to game play.

[Ahzz]

yes, not to mention, they picked only maps with wide ramps to blizzcon. surprise surprise?

[PaiN]

lol...

wide/inverted ramps have done wonders for us

LT = imba
Python = balanced

Hmm... simply by inverting the ramps Python is very close to LT, but more balanced, bases are much more symetrical.

How many balanced 3 players blizzard maps are there? 3 players maps have been generally unbalanced because of the difficulty of making the map symmetrical. But then we have longinus, a very popular 3 player map.

Now i have a question for you. Wide ramps are a little bit zerg favored yes? I do not deny they help the zerg rushes but then look at a blizz ramp. Terran imba much? 12 rines with 1-2 meds on that ramp can work wonders. So wide ramps help balance out this imbalance. Trust me, keep playing and you will learn they are very balanced

[SilverCrusader]

And if you could make 100 zerglings go up a ramp side by side at the same time and coordinate an attack with them at the same time of managing everything else - you should be too busy pwning bisu.