Sci Fi Showdown (Starcraft vs 40k)

[Giggilyomeromicon]

This probably counts as trolling, but who cares.

In a fight, who would win? A Space Marine or a Terran Marine? The Tyranid or the Zerg? Who exactly are the Protoss based on? The Eldar or the Tau?

These are just a handful of questions in a topic that will probably be hilarious.

[Darkslayer633]

I think that 40k would win in he marines bracket simply because the space marines are much better trained then any terran faction, I mean their army is composed of criminals.

[kongurous]

Terran marines: brain-panned criminals and insane space rednecks. Pretty much anyone who can fit in the armor and hold a gun.

Space Marines: Chosen from the best of the best candidates on their homeworld, and even the best out of those are filtered out by death. The remaining men are then put through extremely rigorous training and conditioning to make them beyond the level of human but into superhuman in every sense of the word. The only limiting factors are candidacy and only males can become them.

The Terran marines may have a numerical superiority, but technologically and experience-wise, the Astartes blow the Terrans out of the water. The comparison cannot be made. Astartes are simply better.

The rest of it? Meh. You see bugs in a lot of sci-fi universes, ones before 40k even, and the Protoss are an amalgamation of influences.

[Magmaniac]

mc ftw

[Aqo]

WH40k is pretty much based around major characters being super-mega-ultimate in whatever they do so they're expected to beat any characters from other universes, especially ones like SC where pawns in armies are treated as highly expendable, and even the greatest heroes can be destroyed by nothing special if caught off-guard.

[TheBB]

Which is part of whatever makes SC such a good universe. While 40k probably would beat the SC guys, SC wins story-wise :)

[DarkMirror]

I suppose I have to agree with that.

[singo]

Dunno, it (Starcraft) has got a more....comprehensible plot I suppose, but the sheer scale of 40k is, quite simply, incomparable. An entire sodding galaxy of various things knocking seven kinds of shite out of each other for no readily apparent reason. What's not to love?

Oh, and 20+ mile long warships ARE THE NORM, battleships are bigger yet. Can a Terran Battlecruiser compare with that?

None of which detracts from the fact Starcraft is a very very good game however. Is just not so good as 40k.

[kongurous]

WH40k is pretty much based around major characters being super-mega-ultimate in whatever they do so they're expected to beat any characters from other universes, especially ones like SC where pawns in armies are treated as highly expendable, and even the greatest heroes can be destroyed by nothing special if caught off-guard.

The only super-mega-ultimate 40k characters you see are ones who have to be such to exist, e.g., Abaddon the Despoiler, Marneus Calgar, Eldrad Ulthran, or Old One Eye. The common soldiery, the ones who aren't several hundred years old and with centuries of experience, regardless of side, die very easily.

I guess what I'm saying is, only the heroes in 40k are unstoppable, and even then they will die in a single turn if you leave them exposed. Everyone else without a name? Well, you'd better hope you make your saves. And that whatever you're fighting doesn't have Instant Death.

[Aqo]

Even so, Tyranids are ridiculously huge, spacecrafts are all abnormally oversized as well (20-mile (http://www.centralfloridanotary.com/images/20map.gif) long ships? lolwut? and where do you get the materials and time to build one of those, not to mention many?), "Space Marines: Chosen from the best of the best...", maybe only the heroes are mega-uber, but the rest are still "just" uber.

As said earlier, the only chance SC stands is numbers; zergs breed in seconds, which is pretty damn useful for them, but this doesn't help answering something like "A Space Marine or a Terran Marine? The Tyranid or the Zerg?". 1v1 does not equal Xamount VS Yamount.

[IrishDutchman]

WH40K would pwn the starcraft guys, no doubt. The question about Protoss influences is more interesting. I'd say it's a mix, but it's leaning more towards Eldar.
The 'toss are high on technology and militaristisc, like the Tau. They're visual style is more like the Eldar, with curvy lines and pretty things. They also have psi powers and are very religious, which is an Eldar trait.

[kongurous]

Even so, Tyranids are ridiculously huge, spacecrafts are all abnormally oversized as well (20-mile (http://www.centralfloridanotary.com/images/20map.gif) long ships? lolwut? and where do you get the materials and time to build one of those, not to mention many?), "Space Marines: Chosen from the best of the best...", maybe only the heroes are mega-uber, but the rest are still "just" uber.

As said earlier, the only chance SC stands is numbers; zergs breed in seconds, which is pretty damn useful for them, but this doesn't help answering something like "A Space Marine or a Terran Marine? The Tyranid or the Zerg?". 1v1 does not equal Xamount VS Yamount.

The ships aren't more than 20 miles long (the longest Imperial ship is something like 16 km), you'd get the materials from controlling more then half of the galaxy, and the Space Marines aren't the most numerous army in 40k. You've got roughly a million loyal Space Marines and 100,000 or so Chaotic marines (assuming they're at legion size), compared to the ungodly amounts of everything else in 40k. For scale, a Hivefleet has billions of Tyranid, Craftworlds have millions of Eldar, Ork Waaaghs have anywhere from millions of Orks to billions, and your average Imperial Guard crusade has millions of soldiers in it. That's just all in one place, the Space Marines have the entire Imperium to protect.

WH40K would pwn the starcraft guys, no doubt. The question about Protoss influences is more interesting. I'd say it's a mix, but it's leaning more towards Eldar.
The 'toss are high on technology and militaristisc, like the Tau. They're visual style is more like the Eldar, with curvy lines and pretty things. They also have psi powers and are very religious, which is an Eldar trait.

For the record, the Protoss can't be influenced by the Tau. Starcraft came out in 1998, the Tau had their first mention in 2001.

[singo]

The ships aren't more than 20 miles long (the longest Imperial ship is something like 16 km),

30 kilometres for a dominator class cruiser, the size was mentioned in a short story in the White Dwarf when Codex: Catachans came out, back in 3rd ed, when BFG hadnt yet been demoted to "specialist game" status.


The Imperium doesnt do subtlety, and neither do anyone else in the galaxy for that matter. Even the Eldar ships come under the heading "BIG", with a capital F*ing Huge.

[kongurous]

30 kilometres for a dominator class cruiser, the size was mentioned in a short story in the White Dwarf when Codex: Catachans came out, back in 3rd ed, when BFG hadnt yet been demoted to "specialist game" status.

Which was admitted to be a typo. The author meant 3 kilometers.

[singo]

Didnt know that.

On the other hand sod it, I'm going to assume it wasnt a typo because 30km is much more impressive.


Who says size doesnt matter?

[IrishDutchman]

Which was admitted to be a typo. The author meant 3 kilometers.

My god, is there anything about WH40k you don't know?

[SHISHKABOB]

Warhammer wins. Any single Tyranid Hive Fleet would absolutely crush any of the Starcraft races.

And that's *just* the Tyranids. Even the Tau could whip any SC race's butt. They're space communists for heaven's sake!

[SilverCrusader]

Thats why you 4pool. GO GO GO!

[Cloneliness]

What about the Death Star and Jedis?

[SilverCrusader]

StarCraft not Star Wars...

[Cloneliness]

I know, I just wanted to throw that in there.

[Mr.Bad]

Yea, 40K kills Starcraft. Period. Nothing left to say. New thread.

[SilverCrusader]

How about StarCraft vs. StarCraft 2?
StarCraft wins by far.

[West]

........
SC < WH40K

duh.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

I dunnu, in the story, the Protoss it said to disintegrate many plants in minutes... few hours. So Protoss > bunch of l33t ground troops. Zerg can introduce the new alien races into as zerg mutants into their species and use 'em. Terrans can just have a nuclear arms race and nuke everyone. I think it's actually a tough call from the other stuff I read here.

[Giggilyomeromicon]

I dunnu, in the story, the Protoss it said to disintegrate many plants in minutes... few hours.

The Imperium can do it in seconds.

Zerg can introduce the new alien races into as zerg mutants into their species and use 'em.

The Tyranid already do this, and it doesen't help that much.

Terrans can just have a nuclear arms race and nuke everyone.

They don't use Nukes anymore in Warhammer 40k, they have weapons that are much, much more devastating.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

Damn. I learned nothing from the videogame. Pardon my ignorance.

[Mr.Bad]

IN other words, Warhammer is not a realistically balanced game. While it doesn't really affect gameplay, it pisses me off when everything is played up as so 'uber'.

[kongurous]

IN other words, Warhammer is not a realistically balanced game. While it doesn't really affect gameplay, it pisses me off when everything is played up as so 'uber'.

No, Warhammer (the tabletop) is pretty well balanced. In the lore, 40k would pretty much win without contest. Starcraft actually has a chance if we stat them up in 40k. Which actually sounds pretty fun.

[DarkMirror]

Do I hear the sound of a new project?

[Giggilyomeromicon]

Do I hear the sound of a new project?

More like a lawsuit...

[Ktan]

Since it would be a fan project and require the permission of an opponent as well as in no way threatening to devalue a Games Workshop product in a way that I can divine, then I doubt that would happen. It would still require a knowledge of the Warhamer 40K rules, requiring a Rulebook, and in no way would it nullify any other codex.

I've seen a series of Halo Codeci that they let fly on Relic. I suppose that GW would rather you used the new stats OUTSIDE the contexts of 40K, but aside from at a tournament they have no real way to enforce that.

Writing an SC codex would only be as frowned upon as writing your own codex for any 40K race legally. The only difference is that you would probably be slightly more inclined to be allowed to attempt to test the latter at a GW gaming club.

[SuiCidAl-KiSmEt]

Warhammer is not a realistically balanced game. While it doesn't really affect gameplay, it pisses me off when everything is played up as so 'uber'.
Warhammer beating up StarCraft would make sense. Warhammer takes place in the 41st Millennium while StarCraft takes place only a few* hundreds years ahead of the future. Thus, future stuff makes sense to beat up past stuff. If StarCraft would speed jump further in time, it'll be defiantly be an awesome war to see.
/end

[DarkMirror]

An idea for the next one... what about Tyranids vs. Borg? Or Zerg vs Star wars?

[SHISHKABOB]

Or how about we don't have a next one...

[DarkMirror]

These are fun though.

[Mr.Bad]

Tyranids vs. Borg would not be fair. As awesome as the Tyranids are, Borg own all.

[DarkMirror]

Perhaps. But from what has been said, W40k could pwn ST.

[Mr.Bad]

WH40K could pawn Federation. Not ST as a whole. It's been discussed before, but Borg own all. If they can't kill 40K by conventional means. (which, by the way, they could) They would just go back in time to a period where the Races of 40K didn't even have Space Travel. (yea, they can do that too.)

[DarkMirror]

True.

[Giggilyomeromicon]

Actually, if the Borg tried going back in time to destroy the Imperium, they would all die rather badly.

[Mr.Bad]

Oh? How so? I'm not quite sure how well the primordial compounds the Imperium evolved from would fair against the Borg.

[SHISHKABOB]

Well... eh... I don't think the Emperor would let them travel back in time. He's sort of an omnipotent dude.

[Mr.Bad]

Well... eh... I don't think the Emperor would let them travel back in time. He's sort of an omnipotent dude.

Is that so? Any more so than the Borg Queen?

[Giggilyomeromicon]

Is that so? Any more so than the Borg Queen?

Can the Borg Queen control space and time?

[kongurous]

Can the Borg Queen control space and time?

The Emperor can't really control time, but he sure as hell can control space.

[Mr.Bad]

Well their you go then. The Borg are a hivemind. The Borg can control both Space and Time. Therefore, so can the Borg Queen.

Seriously though, How could the Emperor stop the Borg from going back in time? I admit that my knowledge of 40K is limited, but I don't really see how.

[DarkMirror]

If the BORG can go back in time, and this has been used as an argument for multiple occasions, why do they only do it once?

[SHISHKABOB]

Well, the Emperor would just sort of, blow them out of space before they could travel back in time.

[Borgorb]

Neither would win, they live at least 10000 years apart
but if i had to make a choice starcraft would win with the severe air superoirity
bcs and banshees rain death from above and carriers and motherships burn flaming holes in the ground whilst the sheer mass of guardians and mutalisks force any ground unit into submission. the only 40k air units i hav seen are bomers and high altitude hovercrafts

in the land however terrans would be an impenetrable fortress littered with mines and blocades of seige tanks, zerg would come up from underneath and tear them to shreds while protoss would surge forward with few casulties because of their sheer strength

[DarkMirror]

You know nothing of W40K, do you? We have all discussed how the Terrans, Zerg and 'Toss are doomed vs any of the W40K races. A space marine could probobly easily take a Vulturre mine. Their ships are ten kilometers long, and they destroy planets in a few seconds.

[West]

seems like we flew off topic for awhile

[Mr.Bad]

Well, the Emperor would just sort of, blow them out of space before they could travel back in time.

So, is this blowing out of space an act of God style spontaneous combustion? Or is it the Imperial forces attempting to destroy the Borg?

Because, if it's the first option, than there's no point in 40K, as all factions besides Humanity would have been dead centuries ago. If, however, it's the second option, I think the Emperor would be surprised to see that his forces don 't fair so well against the Borg. The Borg have adaptive shielding. If a ship uses a planet-crushing laser against a Borg Cube, that cube might even die. But if the ship tries to use the weapon again on another ship, they will have just wasted a shitload of energy, and done 0 damage. The Borg Shields are invincible, you can't break them, you can only hope they've never seen your weaponry before.

Lastly, there's no way that any Space Fleet could destroy every Borg ship in existence before at least one (more likely hundreds or thousands) could go back in time. That's even assuming that the Fleet could destroy Borg ships at all.

Oh, and did I mention that Borg ships were huge too? Some of them actually compete with 40K's ship sizes, and as they vastly outdo 40K in both numbers and firepower, I don't think that Borg even could lose to 40K.

The largest flaw in ST is their use of the Borg. They developed them to be, well invincible. And they are invincible. The problem is they have to make the Federation somehow beat them, and as that's not realistic, they end up making rather corny endings and reasons for the Borg to lose.

[kongurous]

So, is this blowing out of space an act of God style spontaneous combustion? Or is it the Imperial forces attempting to destroy the Borg?

Because, if it's the first option, than there's no point in 40K, as all factions besides Humanity would have been dead centuries ago. If, however, it's the second option, I think the Emperor would be surprised to see that his forces don 't fair so well against the Borg. The Borg have adaptive shielding. If a ship uses a planet-crushing laser against a Borg Cube, that cube might even die. But if the ship tries to use the weapon again on another ship, they will have just wasted a shitload of energy, and done 0 damage. The Borg Shields are invincible, you can't break them, you can only hope they've never seen your weaponry before.

Lastly, there's no way that any Space Fleet could destroy every Borg ship in existence before at least one (more likely hundreds or thousands) could go back in time. That's even assuming that the Fleet could destroy Borg ships at all.

Oh, and did I mention that Borg ships were huge too? Some of them actually compete with 40K's ship sizes, and as they vastly outdo 40K in both numbers and firepower, I don't think that Borg even could lose to 40K.

The largest flaw in ST is their use of the Borg. They developed them to be, well invincible. And they are invincible. The problem is they have to make the Federation somehow beat them, and as that's not realistic, they end up making rather corny endings and reasons for the Borg to lose.

I highly doubt their shielding protects against the perils of the warp. Gods rivaling the Emperor of Mankind reside in the recesses of the warp, powered by the fears, desires, tumults, and other factors of life in a dark, unforgiving galaxy. The more people suffer, the more they overindulge, the more they fight, the stronger these gods become and there is no defense save the Emperor that can stop them.

So what do you think will win, your invincible machines or our invincible gods?

[DarkMirror]

No one answered this:
If the BORG can go back in time, and this has been used as an argument for multiple occasions, why do they only do it once?

[West]

Idk, maybe because it's dangerous and if they screw something up they can destroy their own existence?
just throwing in a wild guess.

[DarkMirror]

How? The Sphere that did it did fine. The events there didn't effect the timeline in any way. Besides, everyone has said the have billions of drones, they could sacrifice a few million. I think that the time travel thing was a one-shot event.

[Mr.Bad]

Because the writers had to have some way of beating the Borg. It is also stupid how the Borg go back in time while next to Earth in First Contact. If they were no where near Earth, the Humans wouldn't have known about it until they were all turned into Borg by the change of timeline.

Main problem with ST, they don't bother with continuity, somewhere in TNG, they developed a way to cure any disease with the transporter, yet every time there is a disease, they act like its some huge thing. Not to mention that the transporter supposedly automatically does this.

And, Gods of the Warp? Sorry, in ST, those don't exist, so the Borg aren't restrained by them. Its just invincible machines vs. a supposedly invincible Emperor person. I'd place my bet on the machines, but really, they aren't compatible. 40K is futuristic, but retains some fantasy elements, ST is just hard cold Sci-Fi.

[Ktan]

If the borg set foot in the Emperor's palace room, they'd get absolutely buttfucked by the Adeptus Custodes.

If they somehow got past 300 of them (Each one about as hard as a C'tan Star God) then they'd have to deal with the still formidable buttfucking powers of the Emperor.

This is before we include the C'tan themselves, who are purely material and thus have the same abilities whether the warp is present or not. The C'tan Necrodermis and Gauss Weaponry would probably totally devastate the Borg. The Gauss weapons use magentic fields that flay armour to bits and could probably defeat a Borg shield given time while the Necrodermis can shift forms an infinite amount of times so as to slip through ANY energy field.

Time travel is something that is a bit sketchy, so it's probably best left out of this.

Of course, even then, the C'tan are even shielded against that, since they are as old as time itself. Borg vs IoM could be close, but Borg vs 40K, even discounting the Chaos Gods (which would be nigh on impossible unless the 40K units were to enter a warpless environment) the C'tan can take the Borg collective and tell it to get ready and bend over for one hell of a ram raid.

[kongurous]

Because the writers had to have some way of beating the Borg. It is also stupid how the Borg go back in time while next to Earth in First Contact. If they were no where near Earth, the Humans wouldn't have known about it until they were all turned into Borg by the change of timeline.

Main problem with ST, they don't bother with continuity, somewhere in TNG, they developed a way to cure any disease with the transporter, yet every time there is a disease, they act like its some huge thing. Not to mention that the transporter supposedly automatically does this.

And, Gods of the Warp? Sorry, in ST, those don't exist, so the Borg aren't restrained by them. Its just invincible machines vs. a supposedly invincible Emperor person. I'd place my bet on the machines, but really, they aren't compatible. 40K is futuristic, but retains some fantasy elements, ST is just hard cold Sci-Fi.

Oh, so if the warp doesn't exist in Star Trek, then we can reasonably ignore the Borg. And the Vulcans. And the Klingons. And anything from Star Trek, because they don't exist in 40k! So then 40k would win, because its opposition would be null. Or flip the tables and Star Trek would win because its opposition would be null.

If we're going to argue universes, then all factors in each universe applies. If the Borg apply, the Chaos Gods apply. Try again.

[DarkMirror]

I think Ktan raped the thread.

[IrishDutchman]

I think the best sci-fi showdown question would be: Who CAN beat the WH40K bunch?

[kongurous]

I think the best sci-fi showdown question would be: Who CAN beat the WH40K bunch?

The Culture.

[Ktan]

I think the best sci-fi showdown question would be: Who CAN beat the WH40K bunch?

I thought everybody on the internet knew about Chuck Norris...

[Mr.Bad]

Ktan, we've already covered this, the Borg shields don't work like normal shields, you can't break through them. I don't care if you shooting some planet-killer beam at them, raw power doesn't help. The only way to get through them is to hit them with something new. Gauss doesn't do crap against the Borg.

I was just reading up on the Adeptus Custodes, and they can't do shit against the Borg. There's not many things that can. I would agree that the C'tan could harm the Borg, but they are weak against psychic weaponry. As weird as it seems, psionics are common amongst the Borg, and they would, how did you put it? 'Buttfuck' the C'tan.

And, Ktan, as Kongurous so eloquently stated, we must include all aspects of both universes. That means Time Travel. (although this wouldn't help against the C'tan, it would allow the Borg to not even bother gighting the Emperor or is guard, though they would win regardless)

Lastly, Kongurous, you have a point, the Chaos Gods are a part of 40K, and therefore should be included in any crossover, but the 40K concept of Warp and the ST concept of Warp are 2 different concepts. Not just the Chaos Gods, the very core ideas. In 40K, Warp is an alternate existence which contains currents that can allow high speed travel. In ST, Warp is the distortion of the fabric of space to cause the space around you to move, without your ship actually moving. (Well, that's the Federation Warp, the Borg actually use Transwarp conduits, which are more akin to wormholes.) Yes, the Chaos Gods would exist. But they wouldn't have any impact on the Borg. And even if we decided to stick the Gods in somehow, I doubt they could kill the Borg.

One last thing. The Borg don't have lifespans, if absolutely needed, they could travel around in realspace.

[Ktan]

Ktan, we've already covered this, the Borg shields don't work like normal shields, you can't break through them. I don't care if you shooting some planet-killer beam at them, raw power doesn't help. The only way to get through them is to hit them with something new. Gauss doesn't do crap against the Borg.

C'tan phase swords cut through ANYTHING. Energy shield, concrete or hardened Chuck Norris beard. There are no exceptions to this. If 40K says something is always true, it is ALWAYS true. There is no adapting to the attack of a C'tan phase sword. Even if you adapt to one 'stroke', the C'tan will merely realign its necrodermis infinite times so as to kill every single Borg if it has to.

I was just reading up on the Adeptus Custodes, and they can't do shit against the Borg. There's not many things that can.Surely Borg shields can't stop a simply body slam? You can't adapt to kinetic energy, and the only way that someone could attack the Emperor's Throne Room is by foot. Pin them to the floor and contain them while you get some Psykers in to do what conventional weapons can't.

Adeptus Custodes are like Grey Knights x12. That given, it is likely that they can penetrate the defences of the Borg merely by shattering their souls. Literally

I would agree that the C'tan could harm the Borg, but they are weak against psychic weaponry. As weird as it seems, psionics are common amongst the Borg, and they would, how did you put it? 'Buttfuck' the C'tan.No. The C'tan are vulnerable to Chaotic powers, not insta-killed. If the Borg were to draw on the Empyrean, than your point could possibly stand. However, even if they did, you need to be a mega powerful psyker, on the scale of a Chaos God or Emperor to take out the C'tan.

Hell, the Void Dragon took hits from linked Blackstone Fortresses, weapons designed to kill the C'tan outright and simply shrugged it off. Fortunately, for the Borg, he still slumbers.

Of course, it may be prudent to mention that he is very likely the 'Machine God.' Take from that as you will, though I admit, it is mainly conjecture.

If the Borg do not draw on the Empyrean, however, then they may as well be throwing paper darts at the C'tan.

And, Ktan, as Kongurous so eloquently stated, we must include all aspects of both universes. That means Time Travel. (although this wouldn't help against the C'tan, it would allow the Borg to not even bother gighting the Emperor or is guard, though they would win regardless)
The only reason I discounted time travel is because even Star Trek doesn't know how the rules work. Indeed, by going back in time, if even before the Chaos Gods (if this is possible) the Borg would actually create Khorne if they lay so much as a little finger on anything. With such fresh meat, I'm sure if Khorne could not pervert the Borg to his cause, he would simply crush them.

Lastly, Kongurous, you have a point, the Chaos Gods are a part of 40K, and therefore should be included in any crossover, but the 40K concept of Warp and the ST concept of Warp are 2 different concepts. Not just the Chaos Gods, the very core ideas. In 40K, Warp is an alternate existence which contains currents that can allow high speed travel. In ST, Warp is the distortion of the fabric of space to cause the space around you to move, without your ship actually moving. (Well, that's the Federation Warp, the Borg actually use Transwarp conduits, which are more akin to wormholes.) Yes, the Chaos Gods would exist. But they wouldn't have any impact on the Borg. And even if we decided to stick the Gods in somehow, I doubt they could kill the Borg. Simply put then, consider there to be two different 'Warps'. The concept of 'Warp' in which Star Trek refers to is actually a physical warping of 'real' Space-Time. Warp isn't a place in Star Trek, it's a type of technology.
However, in 40K, the Warp is a place. In this way, it is an ethereal realm, like Hyperspace in Star Wars. It exists outside the boundaries of real space. Star Trek exists within. The two are perfectly compatible.

One last thing. The Borg don't have lifespans, if absolutely needed, they could travel around in realspace.Hehe, Immortals :)


I too used to get frustrated in these 40K vs anything debates, but you soon realise that it's just a given that most things in 40K will beat other things. The Borg are good, and will blitz most sci-fi baddies, but the 40K Universe is just too big a fish for anyone to fry, really.*

Especially when the weapons are so adaptable. Even the standard issue Imperial Lasgun has multiple different settings. Also, I'm aware that there are a couple of weapons in Star Trek lore that negate all Borg shielding. I'm sure that if we could find out how they did it, there would be something else with very similar properties in the IoM arsenal. Either that, or just crush them all with Baneblade tracks *evil eyes*

Even then, the Magos are very adept people. One Biologis Magos was capable of rendering an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet dead simply by using a captured Lictor. Though they seem very backwards in some respects, 40K's Magos are actually very adept, to the point of perhaps easily outstripping those of the Federation, whose machinations have still dealt with the Borg many times, with reasonable success.

Apologies if I come across as overbearing or snotty. It's nothing personal.

I'm glad to see you've been reading up on 40K lore though. Maybe one day we could count you amongst our ranks :P


*Except maybe Optimus Prime, but I personally thing he's the Machine God anyway.

[100thlurker]

It's pretty official, this contest is pretty one-sided.

But not in the way you guys think. All of you have been forgetting about Space...You guys know Star Wars right? You guys also know that in debates like these Star Wars always wins in space because their weapons are capable of Petatons of pure damage.

40k warships can fight them toe to toe.

That's right, a Lunar class cruiser would run the entire Sons of Korhol navy into the ground no matter what pattern it's using. If you are fighting, you always want command of space. Without controlling it, you have no controll of the battle on the ground. I would not be suprised if a single Sector Battlefleet (Thirteen ships if your'e one lucky governer) destroyed every naval vessel that dared to be alive in Starcraft.

With controll of space, they are free to gain controll of the ground, or slag it into glass.

Which brings me to my second point; any planet which is irrevocably infested by the Zerg is going to get blitzed into Exterminatus, no question. If they do do this, then the Zerg loose a major production center, and loose all the forces garrisoning the planet. The Imperials merely have to break the defences on the planet.

[SilverCrusader]

Execuse me? But have I think the last thing a 40k person wants to see is a beefed up Torrasque at their door.
It will rip through half of your battlements before your super weapons are even there :/

[singo]

40k warships can fight them toe to toe.

Without even trying. We have all seen the ranges at which Star Wars/Starcraft ships fight (even in the SC cinematics, bugger game balance) in BattleFleet Gothic (the 40k spaceship game) Battle is conducted across tens of thousands of kilometres (like space battles should be).


I would not be suprised if a single Sector Battlefleet (Thirteen ships if your'e one lucky governer)

A sector battlefleet is a sight bigger than thirteen capital ships. Battlefleet Gothic (i.e, the imperial fleet in the gothic sector), at the start of the Gothic war consisted of AT LEAST...

2 Emperor class battleships
2 Retribution class battleships
One Mars class battlecruiser
3 Overlord class battlecruisers
6 Lunar class cruisers
4 Tyrant class cruisers
One Dominator class cruiser
4 Gothic class cruisers
3 Dicatator class cruisers
6 Dauntless class light cruisers

3 squadrons of Sword class frigates
3 squadrons of Firestorm class frigates
An interteminate number (but more than 2) of squadrons of Cobra class destroyers

Thats at least 32 Capital ships and 8 squadrons of escorts.

Six of those capital ships were attack craft carriers.

Oh and kongurous, call me a berk for not letting sleeping spaceship arguments lie, but looking at the artwork and descriptions in the BFG rulebook, 30km IS probably closer than 3 to the size of an Imperial cruiser.


the last thing a 40k person wants to see is a beefed up Torrasque at their door

Wouldnt last five minutes against rapid firing plasma weaponry, or ordinance fire, or a marauder strike, or a few lascannons to the face. Or a lowly IG sanctioned psyker with a force weapon and a grudge.

[SilverCrusader]

Oh? The same Torrasque that pushes off gauss rifle rounds fired faster than the speed of sound made out of depleted Uranium as if they were foam darts? And all it needs is 5 minutes to tear apart any heavy defense.

[100thlurker]

Without even trying. We have all seen the ranges at which Star Wars/Starcraft ships fight (even in the SC cinematics, bugger game balance) in BattleFleet Gothic (the 40k spaceship game) Battle is conducted across tens of thousands of kilometres (like space battles should be).

If it ever got to a broadside duel, Imperial vessels could still fight an Imperator class Star Destroyer gun for gun. Not that I'm arguing with you in any case.

A sector battlefleet is a sight bigger than thirteen capital ships. Battlefleet Gothic (i.e, the imperial fleet in the gothic sector), at the start of the Gothic war consisted of AT LEAST...

2 Emperor class battleships
2 Retribution class battleships
One Mars class battlecruiser
3 Overlord class battlecruisers
6 Lunar class cruisers
4 Tyrant class cruisers
One Dominator class cruiser
4 Gothic class cruisers
3 Dicatator class cruisers
6 Dauntless class light cruisers

3 squadrons of Sword class frigates
3 squadrons of Firestorm class frigates
An interteminate number (but more than 2) of squadrons of Cobra class destroyers

Thats at least 32 Capital ships and 8 squadrons of escorts.

Six of those capital ships were attack craft carriers.

Ah, but that is the Battlefleet that wards the f*cking Eye of Terror, is it not? Most other fleets get 13 at most.

Wouldnt last five minutes against rapid firing plasma weaponry, or ordinance fire, or a marauder strike, or a few lascannons to the face. Or a lowly IG sanctioned psyker with a force weapon and a grudge.

Or, the planet is DBZed and the guard never even have to deal with it.

[kongurous]

Oh? The same Torrasque that pushes off gauss rifle rounds fired faster than the speed of sound made out of depleted Uranium as if they were foam darts? And all it needs is 5 minutes to tear apart any heavy defense.

Three words: Battle of Macragge.

1,000 Space Marines versus over 5 billion of the meanest, nastiest aliens the Imperium ever fought.

Guess who won. Your Torrasque might infinitely regenerate, but this means nothing to the Imperium. They could simply contain it or better yet, just do the whole "Exterminatus Extremis!" thing and destroy all life on the planet and render all life incapable of ever returning permanently.

[SilverCrusader]

Or, the planet is DBZed and the guard never even have to deal with it.
Like Dragon Balled?
Yeah, the whole army of 40k wouldn't be able to do jack squat against a SSJ 4 Gogeta.
"Oh we'll just shoot..."
".. Ok nevermind, He just instantly transported to the leader's ship and killed him"

1,000 Space Marines versus over 5 billion of the meanest, nastiest aliens the Imperium ever fought.

Guess who won.
The aliens :P
But torrasque has armor harder than any metal. GL penetrating that.
And all you need to beat a space marine is a queen, broodling ftw! Or better yet a Dark Archon. MIND CONTROLZORZ!

[100thlurker]

Starcraft defenses which are manned by brainwashed outworld rednecks.

Don't push your luck pal. 40k is manned by warriors hardened through 10 millenia of non-stop warfare. Unlike your inbred trailer park inhabitants, the warriors of Krieg, Cadia, Catachan, Elysia, Mordia, Preatoria, Valhallen, and thousands of other Regiments have fought horrors of unimaginable proportions. These men have fought DAEMONS and lived to tell their tales. They throw themselves into the fires of war against nightmarish opponents with almost no thought for thier own safety. They've charged the Hordes of the Tyranid threat with nothing but bayonets and their guts, and won. They've fired their guns into the night at opponents that are far smarter, faster, deadlier, and stronger than there is any right to be.

And they have won. Won despite all the pain, and fear, and suffering.

So don't you dare to say that any backwards xeno threat could phase the unflinching men and women of the Imperial Guard. All the billions of them, that guard the millions of worlds under the Imperium of Man.

[SilverCrusader]

Your warriors might be unflinching, but Torrasque is unblinking. All it knows is battle. And if you kill it, you have to fight it again and again, because it revives virtually infinitely. Unless of course you wield dark psionic powers.

[kongurous]

The aliens :P
But torrasque has armor harder than any metal. GL penetrating that.
And all you need to beat a space marine is a queen, broodling ftw! Or better yet a Dark Archon. MIND CONTROLZORZ!

The Space Marines won, and "armor harder than any metal" is nothing to a lascannon or plasma cannon. Besides, hardness has nothing to do with how much it protects, I'd rather go with a strong, soft metal than a hard, weak metal :P Now, the Space Marines deal with mind control (Chaos yay) and other little nasties, worse than broodlings, every day. So what, you can kill a Space Marine. They can kill you back, even faster and with a fanatical fury you won't see anywhere else.

Everything the Zerg or Protoss can throw around, the Imperium, or anyone else in 40k, has seen and beaten at some point in time. No amount of trump cards is going to change the fact that 40k is simply too big and the power level is too high for any universe except maybe Dune (and I'm only saying that because there's an emperor of the known-universe in it) to have a chance.

Your warriors might be unflinching, but Torrasque is unblinking. All it knows is battle. And if you kill it, you have to fight it again and again, because it revives virtually infinitely. Unless of course you wield dark psionic powers.

Yeah, so are Space Marines, just there isn't an infinite number of them. But there's enough to kill any threat (and they have psykers, too. Bye bye, Torrasque.)

[SilverCrusader]

The Protoss are a different story, they wouldn't even try to fight. Hell, they've mastered the secrets of space and time. All they need to do is go back in time and kill the first Imperium.

But I was just arguing for fun. Of course 40k will beat the crap out of the Zerg. The Terran could do it pretty well... If they could stop fighting themselves that is.

[DarkMirror]

Toss cant actually go back in time, or they would have. they can slow it down though.

[100thlurker]

Your warriors might be unflinching, but Torrasque is unblinking. All it knows is battle. And if you kill it, you have to fight it again and again, because it revives virtually infinitely. Unless of course you wield dark psionic powers.

One word.

Psyker.

Or several words:

Inquisitor: All ships, EXTERMINATUS!

http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh126/100thlurker/LanceBatteryNifty.jpg

[DarkMirror]

Uhm, what the hell is that, and where can I "Liberate" one from?

[singo]

Ah, but that is the Battlefleet that wards the f*cking Eye of Terror, is it not?

Nope, that would be the Cadian Sector.

Each battlefleet normally consists of between 50 and 75 warships of varying size

If it ever got to a broadside duel, I know, I was pointing out that the star destroyers would need to be BLOODY lucky to get close enough to spar with an Imperial (or Renegade, or Tau, or Eldar or....) ship.

[kongurous]

Uhm, what the hell is that, and where can I "Liberate" one from?

A screenshot from a game demonstrating an Exterminatus. The Imperium doesn't like people "liberating" their stuff.

[DarkMirror]

What does a Lance Cannon do, exactly? Like, its obviously a 10/10 on the pwn scale, but what is it?

[kongurous]

What does a Lance Cannon do, exactly? Like, its obviously a 10/10 on the pwn scale, but what is it?

Two things.

1) It's a lance battery, not a cannon. Not really important, but I'm a stickler about shit like that <_<

2) Lances are energy weapons of extreme power. Usually mounted in large and heavily armored turrets, lances use triple or even quad energy projectors to focus its energy into a concentrated beam, capable of burning through even the most armored hull and cutting smaller vessels in half.

[DarkMirror]

*whistles*
Wow. Sounds pretty damn kickass. I want one.

[kongurous]

*whistles*
Wow. Sounds pretty damn kickass. I want one.

Yeah, they're also pretty effective at melting planet crusts and that's why the Imperium likes to use them when they can't virus bomb it or throw the planet into a sun or whatever. There's lots of methods of Exterminatus, it really just depends on how creative, bored, or depraved the Inquisitor is who orders it.

[DarkMirror]

O.o
Man, I would love one of those to melt some idiots houses and immeditate surroundings with.

Never happen, but I can dream.

[SilverCrusader]

But for the StarWars vs. 40k that was mentioned.
Kill you, Yoda will.
xD

[Ktan]

Execuse me? But have I think the last thing a 40k person wants to see is a beefed up Torrasque at their door.

Torrasque, meet Mr Carnifex:

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/tyranids/extras/preview/images/carnifex.jpg

Torrasque can rip through a Siege Tank? Well, considering how tough Siege Tanks are, that's quite good, especially asit only takes a couple of hits to kill it. However, Mr Carnifex can rip a Land Raider to pieces with very little effort (pretty much one 'set' of attacks), or at the very least flip it onto its side. This is bearing in mind that a Land Raider is tonnes heavier than a Siege Tank and has armour that's about twenty times thicker and made of Adamantium.
Carnifexes can also regenerate. Indeed, some can even burrow so deep under the surface of a planet that it can survive a strike from a Cyclonic Torpedo.

So, overall, Mr Carnifex = Very good, yes!

Now. The Imperium has killed thousands of these buggers. The Zerg have one Torrasque. Also, rapid regeneration is pretty nifty, but the Space Marines (especially Chapters such as the Ultramarines and Crimson Fists) have had plenty of conflicts with Orks, who can recoup their losses far quicker and come back in just as great numbers. This isn't one monster equivalent to a Carnifex. This is a tide of green monsters, all taller than a man that could rip your arms of with little more than a flick of their biceps that has to be pruned more times a year than you probably mow your lawn.

Regeneration is ok, but it's not a gamebreaker.

That, and it requires a Cerebrate. Call in a nice little Psyker, shatter the soul of the Cerebrate and volia! le Torrasque c'est fini!

[SilverCrusader]

Ahh, but 40k - Plastic Figures and table.
StarCraft - Electrical Data and computer.
Carnifex just got melted by electricity.

[DarkMirror]

lol, thats a good one.

[Ktan]

Ok, when did this turn into Contain/Beat/Destroy? :P

[SilverCrusader]

Victory to StarCraft!

[Ktan]

Note on the Borg, from Memory Alpha:
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Borg_drone

However this force field was unable to protect a drone from projectile weapons e.g. conventional firearms.

This concludes the 40K vs Borg debate. Almost all 40K races have at least one very powerful projectile weapon. Adeptus Astartes Boltguns would absolutely muller a Borg Drone. If not, bring on the Heavy Bolters, Autocannons and Earthshakers :D

[SilverCrusader]

But K'tan, isn't that just for drones? If so, their ship can deflect projectile weapons with ease, as told in the Borg vs. StarCraft debate.

[DarkMirror]

And its been said that laspistol could change enough times to destroy a drone, so why not a ships weapons?

[100thlurker]

If you have to fall back on that, then the discussion is over.

Never mind that. All of you stole the words from my mouth.

[SilverCrusader]

Because not only can the ship repair itself in a matter of seconds it can also adapt to new weapons in mere seconds and its shields (according to the SC vs. Borg debate) can deflect all forms of energy and projectile weapons.

[kongurous]

Ahh, but 40k - Plastic Figures and table.
StarCraft - Electrical Data and computer.
Carnifex just got melted by electricity.

Dawn of War negates your argument.

[Ktan]

But K'tan, isn't that just for drones? If so, their ship can deflect projectile weapons with ease, as told in the Borg vs. StarCraft debate.

Cyclonic Torpedos, Planet Killers, Blackstone Fortresses, Alpha Level Psykers, Lance Batteries, Nova Cannons.

Take your pick. Borg shields are good, yes, but expecting them to take on weapons that can literally crack planets open?

Optimistic, to say the least.

I don't think the 'lolz, they can adapt' argument holds enough water here. Necron armour can adapt too. It can't however, take direct hits from a lance battery and go 'lolz, I'm ok!'

That, and if you want to defeat 40K races, you're going to have to do it by foot most of the time. The Borg's prerogative is to assimilate. They cannot do that from space.

[SilverCrusader]

Dawn of War negates your argument.

So basically it comes down to who plays Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War or StarCraft more. And StarCraft wins again!

[Ktan]

Right, I think we're done here.