To Die in Jerusalem

[Prozerran]

Has anyone seen this documentary? If not, let me give you the synopsis. A Palestinian girl, Ayat Al-Akhras, took on a suicide mission in an Isreali market, killing a young 17 year old named Rachel Levy who was Jewish. The documentary goes into great detail about the origins of the conflict, and it becomes oh so clear how deep this problem is rooted in history.

So, for those of you interested in why violence and religious extremism is so prevalent in the Middle East, here's one anecdote that really sheds light on the problem.

After the holocaust of World War 2, hundreds of thousands of Jewish survivors were forced to leave Germany and Poland due to the strife and anti-semetism that was prevalent in those countries and others. The U.S., in a coordinated effort with NATO and other allied forces that ended Hitler's rule, decided the best way to make it right was to form a nation for the Jewish people, known today as Isreal. Jews were given back their "Holy City" of Jerusalem, and all would now be right with the world.

Not so fast. Because when we created this nation, the land that was currently possessed by another nation, Palestine, was, in short, taken away from Palestinians. Jerusalem was not only the holy city for the Jews. It was the holy city for Palestinians. As more and more Jews flocked to their new nation, Palestinians were forced to give up more and more land. Eventually, their territory became a fraction of the nation they once claimed, and when Palestinians were forced out of Jerusalem (following a history of violent revolt and uprising in defiance of the new nation of Isreal), the conflict became one of religious and patriotic motivation. From this, two positions formed. Isreal believed their strife in WW2 and their liberation from the tyranny of Hitler by the Allied Powers entitled them to their holy city. Palestine became of the belief that they have been occupied, and the insurrection that resulted did little to assuage the anger and betrayal Palestine felt against Isreal and the Western world at large.

Many Palestinians today believe that two nations exist, Isreal and Palestine, and they are content with living in peace with one another. Many other groups of Palestinians hold to their faith and will not rest until they are allowed to return to their holy city without the presence of Jews. The Isreali leadership is either unwilling or unable to compromise on its presence in the holy city, and so, Palestinian revolt (terrorism) still occurs in this area today.

So, what do we make of this? Is Palestinian "terrorism" justifiable, or should Isreal continue to hold the holy city of Jerusalem? Would sacrifice of this territory really end the conflict, or would it continue until the Jewish presence in Isreal is completely gone? Does this change our minds about the influence of the Western world on the middle east, or do we still believe that we bare no responsibility for the bloodshed that has continued to occur in the middle east? Where do you stand on the line of religious and patriotic conflict? If an entire state or region of the United States was annexed to form a new nation for refugees from Iraq, how would you feel about them completely removing you from your home? Everything is open here, so feel free to discuss to your heart's content.

[UMSLdragon]

Honestly, I feel for the Palestinians. It would suck to have that happen, and I'm for the Isreali nation. But I don't tolerate the violence. There are other ways. Maybe not as effective in some ways (sometimes more effective that you think violence could ever be but, w/e) And actully, farth back in the history, the Jews got kicked out and enslaved back in the time of Babylon (or sooner). But between those two nations, factions have been going on a lot longer than that.

If you take the historical information from the bible as a history, you would find that the nation of Islam and such came from Abraham himself. Treat it as a mythology (just because everyone accepts those... sorta), and you find that God told Abe that he would be given a son in his old age and his wifes old age. After which she couldn't conceive anymore. Story goes as, Sarah didn't trust her God, gave Abraham her maid servant, Hagar, she had a son and when her God's promise finally came to and she bore a miracle son, she became jealous of Hagar's son because of the 'heir' thing. So, Hagar and her son got sent out. And that's supposedly where all the facions started. With one woman not trusting... interesting.

But, back to the main thing here (wow, wasn't planning on writing a novel, but oh well). I think that if the Palestinians who are fighting could settle down, then the Jews would too (IMO) and then they might get along in a few generations... The only thing that keeps the fighting going on (IMO again) is that false ideas and 'history' is taught to their children, then they're taught that they should fight because what they're taught is that the Jews wronged them. So they fight for what they think is right. Question is, who is really right?

If you're taught to believe a lie and no one tells you the truth...? No wonder we have factions in this entire world. People are selfish and hold on to emotional things that hinder peace...

Wow... done

UMSL

[Icarus]

The Isreali leadership is either unwilling or unable to compromise on its presence in the holy city, and so, Palestinian revolt (terrorism) still occurs in this area today.

Whoa whoa whoa, are you implying that Israeli doesn't commit acts of terrorism? Just like it's neighbors, Israel fires rockets, kidnaps innocents(according to the associated press, around 9,000 Palestinian prisoners), and enacts dangerous economic sanctions on people in the disputed areas (such as not providing any health care). Obviously, because the U.S. is such good pals with Israel, we pay less attention to when Israeli commits acts of terrorism.

I am against the state of Israel.

I didn't live in that time period, so I can't really say for sure, but claiming that jews couldn't find a "safe haven" anywhere in the world seems to be a real stretch. Form what I've read, many jews had great sympathy among americans, and many of them indeed emigrated here and established themselves. So where was the necessity for this state?

Also, jewish theology states that when the true messiah from god comes, the state of israel will be established. Obviously, he hasn't come (or they haven't picked one or whatever), so by their own theology this state does not make sense.

[singo]

I didn't live in that time period, so I can't really say for sure, but claiming that jews couldn't find a "safe haven" anywhere in the world seems to be a real stretch. Form what I've read, many jews had great sympathy among americans, and many of them indeed emigrated here and established themselves. So where was the necessity for this state?


Well, was America willing to surrender territory equivalent in size to Israel for a jewish nation to be formed upon? No.

So it got bunged in a small outpost of the British Empire that was busy dismantling itself and pretending it had never existed.

Almost everyone in the region (Israel/Palestine) wants to get along in a 2-state thing and not have anyone blowing anyone else up.

But then you get the few dozen arsewits (on both sides, lets be honest) who wont settle for anything else than the practical genocide of the other and who periodically manage to convince everyone else that this is a good idea. Meaning another year or so of fighting that stirs up more bad feeling and takes a long time for everything to settle down again and people to admit yes they DO really want peace.

[Prozerran]

I didn't live in that time period, so I can't really say for sure, but claiming that jews couldn't find a "safe haven" anywhere in the world seems to be a real stretch. From what I've read, many jews had great sympathy among Americans, and many of them indeed emigrated here and established themselves.

Most Americans didn't know about the suffering the Jews endured until after Israel was actually established. Watch Schindler's List. At the end when the Jews are "liberated" from Schindler's factory, the Russian soldier tells them something to the effect of, "Well, you can't go back to Poland, you can't go to Germany, but I hear they have refugee camps to the east and the south." I don't remember exactly what he says.

The point being, the Jews had nowhere to go. They'd been literally uprooted with the expectation that they would be completely eliminated. Sure, the Jews could find a "safe haven." It was called a refugee camp. They were all over the place in Europe and in Asia as more Jews from those areas were flocking to them. But they couldn't remain there indefinitely. Palestine was the cleanest dirty shirt, insofar that it was a place where Jews had religious roots and a history dating farther back than the Palestinians that occupied that region. I don't really know where you're coming from on this, but Jerusalem has been a battleground since before the Crusades. I suppose it was hoped for that the region would finally live in peace following the defeat of a tyrannical, empire-building leader like Hitler. Maybe we all hoped that the lessons would be learned and conflict would be handled peacefully.

But since when have we EVER learned from our history and actually acted to prevent the past from being the present again?

Also, Jewish theology states that when the true messiah from god comes, the state of Israel will be established. Obviously, he hasn't come (or they haven't picked one or whatever), so by their own theology this state does not make sense.

Well, I don't think theology has a place in this discussion when it comes to determining the rightness of the establishment of Israel. If you consider the United States, we are a country of cultural diversity. We've had to learn to be tolerant of each other in order to live in harmony. We've had to adapt our laws to give equal rights to all who live here. And we draw no lines or boundaries to separate each other on a large scale. If you really think about it, we are many nations under one umbrella form of government to unite us as one nation.

The majority of Palestinians believe this is the case with Israel and Palestine. The majority are content with living in peace, with two nations under one government and two religions with one holy city. The problem comes with the sects that have developed through fundamentalism and extremism. There are several groups of Palestinians who believe they have been occupied, and there are groups of Israelis who believe they have been victimized long enough. You can't really distinguish this when you think in such broad patterns of thought like theo-logic. It's much too complicated.

Now let me respond to this...

Whoa whoa whoa, are you implying that Israelis don't commit acts of terrorism? Just like it's neighbors, Israel fires rockets, kidnaps innocents (according to the associated press, around 9,000 Palestinian prisoners), and enacts dangerous economic sanctions on people in the disputed areas (such as not providing any health care). Obviously, because the U.S. is such good pals with Israel, we pay less attention to when Israel commits acts of terrorism.

I am against the state of Israel.

The United States does not provide health care to all of its citizens, and it certainly doesn't sanction or legally bind hospitals to care for illegal aliens. It just so happens that doctors take the Hippocratic oath that binds them to do no harm by acting or not acting to treat anyone in their care, so emigrants that aren't here legally often get treatment anyway. Does this give these uncared-for people a justification for running into malls and blowing themselves up, killing other innocents along the way? Of course not.

There's a lot of history behind the kidnappings, the conflict, the economic sanctions and so on. Your bias against Israel is noted, but the whole mess can be summed up with "Civil War." That's all it really is, and it's perpetrated by the few, not the many. Those who refuse to make the best of the situation are the ones that are willing to create mass death and mayhem. Instead of working together to build a stronger nation of equality with diplomacy, Palestinian extremists use bombs strapped to their bodies, and Israeli fundamentalists just use these attacks as an excuse to kidnap more Palestinians, send over more rockets, and impose more economic sanctions. Really, it's a failure in communication.

[WhatIsStarcraft]

Can you give a link for the documentary? Would be nice if everybody could watch this video or read the document. I think people should know more about something before they get involved. That's at least my motto.

[tremaparagon]

Though I am a Muslim, I don't want any violence, and the land should be shared.

However, if the Israelis should because it was theirs thousands of years ago even though the Palestinians are there, then lets move all Americans and let the Native Americans take the land.
OK thats really extreme, but think about it

Anyway,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BwwewWGGss
is the absolute best thing ever created
Although it is even better if you've already seen west side story, which I did

[Icarus]

The point being, the Jews had nowhere to go. They'd been literally uprooted with the expectation that they would be completely eliminated. Sure, the Jews could find a "safe haven." It was called a refugee camp. They were all over the place in Europe and in Asia as more Jews from those areas were flocking to them. But they couldn't remain there indefinitely. Palestine was the cleanest dirty shirt, insofar that it was a place where Jews had religious roots and a history dating farther back than the Palestinians that occupied that region.

I don't understand why they chose palestine. If the relief institutions had the means to transport the refugees overseas, and establish them, why didn't they send them to a more stable country like or america? or just stay in europe?

They were foreigners, who basically stole a nation of it's land against the nation's will, and discriminated against them.

Well, I don't think theology has a place in this discussion when it comes to determining the rightness of the establishment of Israel.

The common denominator of jews is that well... they're jewish, so theology is definitely appropriate.

The majority of Palestinians believe this is the case with Israel and Palestine. The majority are content with living in peace, with two nations under one government and two religions with one holy city.

How do you know that? What evidence is there that the populace agrees?

The United States does not provide health care to all of its citizens, and it certainly doesn't sanction or legally bind hospitals to care for illegal aliens.

Health Care policies are governed on the state and local level. Federal government can only fund public health institutions. Therefore, you cannot generalize and say the united states does not provide health care for anyone. My father is a doctor in illinois, and he's told me the no one can reject any patient if he requires treatment.

Even if you were telling the truth, why is it that if america doesn't treat everyone, then it's ok for other countries to? I just don't see the connection.

"Civil War." That's all it really is

The two nations were geographically and socially separate before the jews ousted the Palestinians. A civil war is domestic.

[singo]

I don't understand why they chose palestine. If the relief institutions had the means to transport the refugees overseas, and establish them, why didn't they send them to a more stable country like or america? or just stay in europe?

They were foreigners, who basically stole a nation of it's land against the nation's will, and discriminated against them.

The reason it was not in Europe or America was that neither would give up territory for them. Israel was set up in palestine because it was a colony that was about to be abandoned, and thus it would not be their problem anymore.

After finding out what was behind those barbed wire fences the Nazi regime set up in eastern europe the world was on a collective guilt trip over the past....oh, lets call it two thousand years of pogroms left right and centre, they wanted to sooth some consciences whilst making it someone elses problem.

Still, the peace process is vaguely on track (with a few bumps and false starts every so often) so with any luck Palestine as a country and Israel next to it can get along without either air strikes or explosive waitcoats at some point soon.

[Oblongato]

I don't think it is coincidence that the fanatics preventing a practical solution to the problem are always religious fanatics.

Truly, all parties involved have been screwed one way or another. The Jews in the Holocaust, the Palestinians in the creation of Israel. Both were pawns of the dominant powers after WWII. There are many people in both cultures who would now be willing to accept that life isn't fair, let bygones be bygones and make a practical compromise so that they could enjoy their lives in peace. If only if it were not for the hard-line religious fanatics who are not willing to give a single inch of ground because they are convinced that god promised one particular part of Jerusalem to his people and his alone.

The very existence of the fanatics also hinders reasonable people from making compromises because they must always fear the actions of those who promise they will not play along. What is the point in sharing territory if you must fear that you will also be letting in fanatics (whether Jewish or Muslim) who continue to call for your death? I am convinced that peace would have been possible long ago were it not for the presence of religious fanaticism.

[Icarus]

The reason it was not in Europe or America was that neither would give up territory for them.

Why would they need land? No one implied that they would be given an entire country. We didn't give the victims of south african apartheid their own home, or the native americans which the europeans had nearly extinguished, so why was it necessary, or even entertained, that jews would be given control of a state?

[singo]

Because none of the existing countries wanted a large influx of European jewry. And most of them had at least some history of anti-semitism and, as I said, the Jews had just been on the recieving end of a genocide and the world felt a bit guilty for not doing much about it (except by accident).