Success of Failure of Pay to Play dynamic

[Graeme]

I am so sick and tired of people bitching about the monthly fees as though it's the end of the world and the end of the gaming industry. If anything, it's the start of a new gaming industry. If you cannot afford the measley 10 dollars a month, don't play. It's as simple as that.

Rich, instead of 'opening our eyes' as you so obviously intended to, you managed to portray yourself as the ignorant drama-queen you are. Blizzard is not 'stripping us of our freedom and rights'; my God, that's the most overblown statement I've ever read in my life. They're a gaming industry, and their initial goal is to make money. Sorry, that's life and that's how things work. The world runs on money and if Blizz hopes to release any other games after WoW, they had best not go bankrupt.

I know a few people working inside Blizzard, and I can attest to the fact that they have been working night and day already, before release, before they have made any money, to bring us the product we have all been wishing for. That's right, thus far, they haven't earned any profit off of World of Warcraft. Yet, they spend their weekends and countless nights (which they aren't being payed for) to bring us patches on the beta because this is what the beta testers, their fans, are asking for. How's that for 'a line of money grubbing over powered fucks just looking for more power '?

As for 'imagining them as our government', how about we don't? Because they aren't - they're a gaming industry.

Now then, how about this for a situation? I am 16, not 21. I have a part-time job, making minimum wage in Canadian dollars. I have to save up for University which is just one year away. I will not receive any money from the government, and I will not receive any money from my parents - I have to rely on my own money, and any scholarships I receive. Yet I still manage to have the money to fork up 10-20 dollars a month to pay for MMOGs, and I still have money in the bank.

How is it possible that a sixteen year old with very little means for attaining and saving money is able to pay for MMOs, yet you, a 21 year old can't manage to pull it off?

The simple fact of the matter is this: MMOGs are not your average games. They require a lot more effort and money to create and sustain. In essence, they are an entirely new world. Blizzard chose to make a world unlike any other - a world that rivals any other MMOG on the market. Yet they plan to charge the same amount of money any other MMOG would charge

As for using other means to pay the dev team and GMs - that's simply not realistic. Blizzard will have GMs working to moderate the World of Warcraft 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This is to ensure the game runs smoothly and there are no hackers or abusers in the MMOG. Blizzard will also have people working to create new content at all times - these will be released in patches. This will allow the world to change and improve as the people play the game. The revenue earned from marketing simple things like hats and t-shirts would definitely NOT be enough to pay for these workers for the many years that WoW will run.

That, my friend, is two cents. Informed thinking and ranting is always a plus. Stop overreacting and get used to the fact that games will now cost money. That's life, I got over it years ago, I encourage you to also get over it.

Cheers.

[Graeme]

Edit: To clarify, this isn't a double post. The thread was simply split ^_^.

That's perfectly fine with me. I could care less if people choose to play GuildWars instead of WoW for financial or whatever reasons they have. I'm actually relying on this fact to block a lot of the youngon BNetters who have virtually no skill or manners. I'm simply asking that people stop posing the completely inane questions, "Why would Blizzard do this to us?! Their other games didn't need monthly fees, why does this one!?"

I feel that I have answered this question a thousand times and yet people still don't understand. I wrote out that half-rant so I can simply point people in this direction the next time they ask. WoW is an entirely different game, a MMORPG. The people that often make these claims are people who have NEVER played MMOGs before. They have no experience in how things run in a MMOWorld, and thus they don't comprehend the idea of paying a fee to play a game. Well, I for one, have been a fan of MMO games for quite a while now. I know that a monthly fee is needed if the game is to run smoothly. I'm just trying to get people to understand this ^_^.

As for why Area.Net doesn't have to charge, there are numerous reasons, and to clarify, I'll cover a few.

Arena.Net is supported, as we know, by NCSoft, the creator of several popular MMOs in the past. They obviously have the financial backing already, and have much experience in the field - on the other hand, this is Blizzard's first MMOG.

It is also quite impossible to guage the success of these games before they are released. For all we know, GuildWars may do poorly because in its second or so year, it can no longer generate enough of a revenue to pay the devs and GMs. How would you like to play a successful MMOG, create a few awesome characters, and then find out later that the servers are being closed down due to lack of funds?

They are also entirely different games. Perhaps GuildWars, because of their unique single-shard server, will not have to pay as much for the upkeep and bandwidth of their servers. This may allow them to pay their GMs and devs using the profit made from the single purchase of the game.

There are way too many factors to be discussed just to say, "GuildWars doesn't have a fee, so every other MMOG shouldn't have a fee." X_x

Anyway, to clarify, I plan to play both WoW and GuildWars, so I'm not anti-GW at all. I hope it's a successful game as well. If people don't want to play WoW, and would rather play GW, I could care less. Just stop bitching about it, unless you have something really new and unique to say about the matter ^_^.

[Richardc269]

I'd like to shed a little light in your direction.

One thing about gaming is, most people won't pay to play games. Why? Because 1, we already bought it at the store. That is why you make it high priced at stores. People don't wanna have to pay money to play games because it's discouraging to most people. And no, I am not ignorant, thank you making a wrong analogy. Secondly, what I said about Blizzard is true. If you haven't been looking at it right, you'd disagree. Like I have said, I have been on Battle Net since 1996, and it has never changed. It's always been the same. I don't mind the people playing it, but it's the company itself if you hadn't noticed. Thirdly, I don't think Blizzard should be making WOW in the first place honestly in my opinion. Why? Because their just ganna lose money on it most likely because Blizzard fans mostly play StarCraft. StarCraft is the most popular game in Battle Net. Fourthly, when they make StarCraft 2, everyone is just ganna forget WOW and SC2 will become even MORE popular than SC1, why? Because the fact that StarCraft is the best game Blizzard made. I will bet you anything that Blizzard has made more money on StarCraft than any other game they made. Thus when SC2 comes out, nearly 3/4 of BNet will be playing SC2 because of its popularity. Now if SC2 sucks, then everyone will just play SC1. Thats IF it sucks. If it doesn't suck, everyone is ganna play it and forget all the other games. Like Diablo 1, when SC came out, Diablo's popularity dropped instantly. Only 1000 people a day now only play D1. Why? Because SC has all of B.nets popularity. Here's the figures: D1, 5% popularity, SC, 70%, WC3, about 10%, D2 and LOD, 15%. When WOW comes out, it'll probably only have about 20% popularity. Why? Because StarCraft has all the popularity. Why? Because it's the best fucking game they've made. Blizzard honestly shouldn't be making WOW, it should be focusing on SC2. Thats Blizzard's problem.

And yes Blizzard IS a bunch of overpowered fucks. Why? Look at the reasons I gave before. Sure they might put all their effort into the game, but not the players, they'll just make someone watch over the game for hackers. And why is that? Because they don't want people fuckin' up the game. They just care about their little rule book. Why do you think the only way to get your password back is through D2 or WC3? Because they got fed up with people losing their passwords and people getting hacked. But guess what else? There's ALWAYS going to be hackers on Battle Net no matter what the hell they do because hackers are always going to find a loophole in the program and break a hole into it and THEN their ganna hack it. Why? Because they can and they have the skills to do it. (unless their morons).

Now back to the other thing...why do people bitch about the monthly fees? Because they hate it, thats why. They gatta take money outta their own pockets just to play a game on the internet when they could be playing it for free. Buying the game is enough, people don't like paying to play it. Mostly because their a cheapskate and another reason, is because it's not worth it. Let's say you've been playing it for 3 years. You'll have to pay 300 bucks in 3 years to play it. And most people aren't going to do that. They could'a saved themself 300 bucks for other things. And fifthly, I'm not bitching about it, I'm stating my opinion. Stating an opinion is not bitching. Neither is stating facts. So there's another one of your wrongful analogies thank you.

As I've stated before, there's tons of ways to gain money. They just need to find out how and when. If they don't, oh well. Shows how brilliant they are isn't it?

[Graeme]

*sigh*, I really didn't want to have to post again because I'd just be reiterating points that I've already made, but what the hell, eh? I'll keep it short. Onto the main course:

I'd like to shed a little light in your direction.

One thing about gaming is, most people won't pay to play games. Why? Because 1, we already bought it at the store. That is why you make it high priced at stores. People don't wanna have to pay money to play games because it's discouraging to most people.
Overgeneralization.
According to this article (http://www.worldofwar.net/mailbag/price.php) done by WorldofWar.net, only 21.8% of people surveyed were not willing to pay money to play the game online.
According to this article (http://sonyonline.com/corp/press_releases/eq_100k_users.html), Everquest, in its prime, managed to account for "more than 13 million registered [MMORPG] users", and in a single raid had over 100,000 gamers playing.
I could go on and find a kajillion other articles to prove this, but I think you get my point.

And no, I am not ignorant, thank you making a wrong analogy.
I don't believe you quite grasp the definition of the word 'analogy'. I never used your ignorance in a comparison. Here, go read up: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=analogy

Secondly, what I said about Blizzard is true. If you haven't been looking at it right, you'd disagree. Like I have said, I have been on Battle Net since 1996, and it has never changed. It's always been the same. I don't mind the people playing it, but it's the company itself if you hadn't noticed.

Well, that just doesn't make any sense. Help me along, if you will. What is the 'it' you refer to several times?
ie. 'been looking at it'
'and it has never changed.'
'It's always been the same.'
'I don't mind the people playing it'
I'm sorry, I really would like to rebut this, but I just cannot understand what you're saying X_x.

Thirdly, I don't think Blizzard should be making WOW in the first place honestly in my opinion. Why? Because their just ganna lose money on it most likely because Blizzard fans mostly play StarCraft. StarCraft is the most popular game in Battle Net.
WoW will not be run on Battle.Net at all, so we don't really have to worry about that.

As for them losing money because people will still play Starcraft . . . Well, they are two entirely different games with two entirely different fanbases. People from various different game-bases (ie. EQ, DAoC, UO, etc. etc.), are leaving those games to play WoW. Blizzard is not completely dependent on the fanbase they've already attained through their past games. They will attract many new customers because WoW is their first MMOG, and it has proven to be one of the most anticipated MMOGs currently in development ^_^.

Fourthly, when they make StarCraft 2, everyone is just ganna forget WOW and SC2 will become even MORE popular than SC1, why? Because the fact that StarCraft is the best game Blizzard made. I will bet you anything that Blizzard has made more money on StarCraft than any other game they made.

No need to bet, this is likely true. However, Starcraft, as I stated before, is a different type of game than World of Warcraft. ie. RTS vs. MMORPG. They operate quite differently. As for SC2 stealing the fans for WoW, I don't think that's really plausible: A) because Blizz hasn't even stated that SC2 is in development and B) people can play more than one game at a time :p - I would imagine most Blizz fans would play SC2 as well as WoW ^_^.

Thus when SC2 comes out, nearly 3/4 of BNet will be playing SC2 because of its popularity.

Usually when people make broad statements like these, they back it up with some form of proof. So . . . I'm waiting . . .

Now if SC2 sucks, then everyone will just play SC1. Thats IF it sucks. If it doesn't suck, everyone is ganna play it and forget all the other games. Like Diablo 1, when SC came out, Diablo's popularity dropped instantly.

Again, two entirely different games and by that time Diablo was getting old. Also, proof of this?

Only 1000 people a day now only play D1. Why? Because SC has all of B.nets popularity. Here's the figures: D1, 5% popularity, SC, 70%, WC3, about 10%, D2 and LOD, 15%. When WOW comes out, it'll probably only have about 20% popularity. Why? Because StarCraft has all the popularity. Why? Because it's the best fucking game they've made. Blizzard honestly shouldn't be making WOW, it should be focusing on SC2. Thats Blizzard's problem.

First and foremost, I'd like a source on those figures ^^.

OK, now, I'm not sure if you've heard or not, but WoW has a massive fanbase. In fact, WoW is very likely the most anticipated MMO in history:
* There are a plethora of fansites already fully functioning with large amounts of content - this was also true before closed beta, during alpha when info was scarce.
* WoW is one of the few MMOs that has had a large number of guilds set up years in advance of its release (my guild will hit its anniversary this August).
* WoW is one of the few MMOs (if not the only) that has had its website servers clobbered because of a release of a new teaser video.
* WoW is one of the few MMOs that has had fan-IRC chats with hundreds of people set up years in advance of its release
* Blah blah blah, I could go on forever. Don't just assume that the only fans Blizzard has are the fans from BattleNet. They have many . . . many friends. ^_^

And yes Blizzard IS a bunch of overpowered fucks. Why? Look at the reasons I gave before. Sure they might put all their effort into the game, but not the players, they'll just make someone watch over the game for hackers. And why is that? Because they don't want people fuckin' up the game.
I'm sorry, I don't see anything wrong with that at all. If I made a game that had cost me millions upon millions of dollars, and had a massive fanbase - thousands of gamers playing on the servers at all times, I would NOT want hackers to ruin my game. That's pretty much common sense.

They just care about their little rule book. Why do you think the only way to get your password back is through D2 or WC3? Because they got fed up with people losing their passwords and people getting hacked.
Uhh . . . So what? I'd get bothered by thousands of idiots mailing me for a lost password too . . .

But guess what else? There's ALWAYS going to be hackers on Battle Net no matter what the hell they do because hackers are always going to find a loophole in the program and break a hole into it and THEN their ganna hack it. Why? Because they can and they have the skills to do it. (unless their morons).
This is true, hackers will always attempt to ruin the game for others. That's exactly why they have to employ GMs to reverse any ill effects the hackers may induce on the servers. Common sense here.

Now back to the other thing...why do people bitch about the monthly fees? Because they hate it, thats why.
Overgeneralization again. See one of my first points for links to articles proving that statement wrong.

They gatta take money outta their own pockets just to play a game on the internet when they could be playing it for free. Buying the game is enough, people don't like paying to play it. Mostly because their a cheapskate and another reason, is because it's not worth it. Let's say you've been playing it for 3 years. You'll have to pay 300 bucks in 3 years to play it. And most people aren't going to do that. They could'a saved themself 300 bucks for other things.
Hmmm, wow. Alright, so you're not willing to pay 300 dollars for three years of solid and enjoyable gaming?! That seems a wee bit inane.

Let's say, for example, you like to play console games. Let's say, on average, you buy a new console game every 3 months or so. Assuming each console game costs 50 dollars, and you follow this trend for three years, you've managed to spend 600 dollars on games. That's without tax too ^_~. In case you can't do the math, that's twice the amount of bling than that which you'd have to fork out for a MMOG. WOW!

I'm sorry, but 300 dollars for three years of well-spent leisure time does not seem like a lot of money to me o_O.

And fifthly, I'm not bitching about it, I'm stating my opinion. Stating an opinion is not bitching. Neither is stating facts. So there's another one of your wrongful analogies thank you.
Again, not quite sure if you understand the word 'analogy'. As well, you never stated any 'facts', you only stated your blind opinions. Facts must be followed by sources of some sort.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure you were bitching about it ^_^.

As I've stated before, there's tons of ways to gain money. They just need to find out how and when. If they don't, oh well. Shows how brilliant they are isn't it?
Actually yeah . . . the easiest way to gain money in order to pay off their devs and GMs would be to have a monthly fee. That's pretty damn brilliant!

[TranquilNightElf]

first off:
It is also quite impossible to guage the success of these games before they are released. For all we know, GuildWars may do poorly because in its second or so year, it can no longer generate enough of a revenue to pay the devs and GMs.

(Now why'd you have to go an say somehting like that :p ).....GOD i hope not



Help me along, if you will. What is the 'it' you refer to several times?

I think he is refering to "battle.net" :confused:




Blizzard is not completely dependent on the fanbase they've already attained through their past games. They will attract many new customers
people can play more than one game at a time
If you hadn't said that i would have ^_^




Radlin pretty much covered it all except a few points i'd llike to articulate now.

What you (Richardc269) fail to realize that though GuildWars will not be a monthly fee based game it will have many new chapters releasing in the span of 6 to 9 months which will be priced as whole new games (and with good reason but that's beside the point).
That is their intented source of revenue. on a monthly basis it comes it comes out to be slightly less than 10 dollars considering each new chapter is released for $50 about every 7 months. Of course Arena.net have made it so (or rather will make it so)that it is not essential to buy the new chapters to continue playing,but to say that WoW monthly payment should also be optional based on this is illogical as the whole infrastructure required and the mechanisms,gameplay of the two games are quite different as i've stated a page or two back.Both WoW and GW will be immensely popular in their own rights. Practically they are different types of games.


Right now Guild Wars is ahead on my list for mainly the fact that i've played it during E3 and enjoyed it quite a lot. Also that it will have no monthly fee and rather a one time fee (every chapter) and i hope they will be able to keep it up .That is not to say that i feel WoW should have no monthly fee at all.I understand the fact why it is needed and if such a form of payment is convenient i would definitely get it.

[Richardc269]

I will say it again Rad...when Blizzard DOES start making SC2...it's going to have more popularity in the Blizzard community than any game they have made in the past. And it doesn't matter if WOW is Battle Net related or not, my fact still stands. The entire Blizzard community (Or BNet community I should say) will start playing SC2 and almost forget the other games.

Secondly of all, Diablo 1 came out in 1996. StarCraft came out in 1998. Before SC1 came out, Diablo 1 had all the players (basically because it was the only game out at the time), but as soon as SC1 came out, nearly 3/4 of the players went to SC1. Why? Because it was so awesome and the fact that the game play in it was that good, they nearly forgot D1 existed. And D1 was only 2 years old, I'm sorry but thats not old. Thats still quite new. But now it's the year 2004, D1 came out in 1996. 8 years. Yes it's old NOW, but it wasn't back then. And as I've stated, only 1000 play it. And I don't give a rats ass what your statistics are, WoW will be forgotten the minute SC2 comes out. And yes, Blizzard WILL make SC2 because of everyone wanting it to be made. And they WILL make it after their done spending all their damned time on WoW.

As I've said before...about making money...making them pay isn't an "alternative", I said OTHER forms of gaining money. Should learn how to read kiddo. Secondly...your statiscs most likely are still wrong. Wanna know why? Because not everyone votes on it. Mostly because the people who don't vote, don't wanna vote! So it's not entirely correct. If EVERYONE voted, THEN it would be entirely correct now wouldn't it? I think so. Secondly, about paying, everyone on this planet would rather play for free rather than pay. Why? Because it's just the way everyone feels about it. It doesn't matter if someone says "I wouldn't mind" or "Yes if I feel like it", or "Yes I would pay." But guess what? They'll STILL wish they didn't have to pay. Why you wonder? Because it's just the way everyone thinks. Everyone wishes everything was free instead of paying for it no matter HOW much they think it should be paid, they'll STILL wish it was free. So no matter how high your statisistics are, everyone is still ganna wish it was free. And yes, I know this because I know how peoples minds work. Why you wonder? Because I know how people act and respond to things. Put it this way...I used to observe people, (not really stare), but I just caught up on how people acted. I looked around my school a few times, even the neighborhood and saw how everyone acts. And yes, everyone thinks almost the same about certain things. Such as money. Everyone knows they need it to survive on. Everyone knows nothing is free, but they pay for it non the less, why? Because some things are a "need" rather than a "want". There are only a few things that are a "need": Food, water and air. Everything else is a want. Money is not a need, it's a want. Why? Because money is something everyone "wants", not everyone "needs" to surive on. Food is body oriented, money is not, therefore, it's a want. Same with games, their a want. Paying for it, is a want. Paying multiplayer is a want.

Another thing, I don't even own any systems. I don't own an X-Box, I don't own a PS1, I don't own a PS2, therefore, I don't pay 600 bucks in 3 years. I don't even "want" a system. Why? Cuz computers are better honestly in my opinion. Sure you might go against it, but the fact still stands about it. It has better graphics and better controlment actually.

I'm sorry but games don't cost millions of dollars to make. More like thousands. My statement still stands on SC2. Yes it will steal all the popularity. Why? Because 75% of Blizzard fans want it to be made. SC2 fans most likely don't care about WoW, they just want SC2.

And yes, my "generalization" is based apon thinkings of the minds. Not facts of bull. And I meant by Analogy as in "yes, thank you for stating that shit." I'm not saying you compared shit...I hate twits. Maybe if ya pulled your head outta your ass, you'll think differently now. And yes, all this shit I've stated is true. And if you don't believe me, well then...I guess that proves my point of ignorance in this world now hasn't it?

Out of the umm, argument here. A question: Anyone know a place where I can upload Signatures? I made a sig in Photoshop 7 an wanted to put it in my sig. Thanks.

[Battlecruiser]

Well, I think it is human nature to want everything free. But that isn't the way it works. Very few are free, and many cost money. I guess most of us were just hoping we could have fun, without being charged monthly. WHen I heard that I could play games online with my friends I was pretty excited. Especially because it was free. What I am talking about is battle.net and gamespy arcade. Well in the end, if I am ever to play World of warcraft, it will be if they give me a discount and make it $50 per year to play it and the game can cost $75. But that is just me. Maybe if the fun is worth 10 dollars a month and this game gets the best reviews I will pay the $10 dollars per month.

Radlin, you don't need to respond to my comment if you don't want to.

[Richardc269]

Now see...BattleCruiser has JUST proven my point thank you very much. You can babble all you want. Battlecruiser is my proof. Now stick it in your ass. Thank you. Have a nice day. Good argument. Ha!

[Seal]

Richardc269: If you don't like it, don't play or whine about it. You can play other games if you don't want to (pay to) play WoW, Blizzard does not care.

Understand, monthly payment is the best form (for Blizz, and to the average customer) of getting money for the huge costs of keeping up high-quality servers and GMs. You want pop-up advertisements disrupting you when killing a boss mob?

I'd rather pay to play than get used to advertisements midgame, and I think that not so many people want to buy WoW-stuff, but I may be wrong.

Main point is still that "If you don't like it, don't buy it". Don't whine about it, at least here.

Why Blizz doesn't do SC2? That has been hyped already alot, I mean alot by now, by the fanbase. They wait for SC2, but it would be suicide to make SC a poorly made game. Blizzard is waiting for the right time to announce it, as it will be even more popular than any other RTS (or any game) before it reaches alpha stages (in fact, it's right now, unannounced, but popular). much like WoW.

[Richardc269]

I'm not whining. I'm stating facts. Stating facts isn't whining, sorry. And no, I'm not planning on buying WoW. I aint payin' to play games. It's either free or I say fuck you.

Secondly, yes, Blizzard fans would buy Blizzard stuff based on a certain game.

Lets say you play StarCraft. Now lets say Blizzard started making items (shirts, hats, cups, and other stuff), now lets say you wanted one of them just because you like StarCraft. Now, if Blizzard did this, (and since there's atleast 300k+ on B.net), they'd make tons of money just from trying to sell that stuff. Sure they sell books and those two other little games, but hardly anyone buys that shit. Why? Because it's just not popular. Now if they sold stuff GAME oriented, they'd make big bucks. And anyone would know this.

[Graeme]

Radlin, you don't need to respond to my comment if you don't want to.

Haha, nay nay. That's possibly the best attitude to have toward the game ^_^. That's exactly what I've been wanting to hear in this thread . . . instead of *sigh* Rich's ridiculous rants. Anyway, I best get onto those rants . . .
----------------------------------------------------------------

Ok Rich. I seriously contemplated responding to this all of this garbage which you so forcefully painted all over my computer screen. I really did. I thought to myself, "Self, I'm sure we can convince Rich that the Dark Side will never win. I'm sure we can teach him the way of the force. Perhaps, one day, if I reiterate the message enough times, he too will understand the need for profits to run a MMOG."

But then, as though a magnificent lightbulb appeared above my head and shone its glorious rays across the horizon, I came to the ultimate realization that there is no way in hell Rich will ever understand. Thus, I am giving up on you. *Tear rolls down cheek*. Yes, there is no hope for you. But I will leave you with this, in a hope that one day you will come back to this thread, and reflect on how ignorant and naughty you have been:

You have not once stated a fact in this thread. A fact requires proof. A fact requires some form of a source. Every single one of your facts has been an overgeneralization created by you. Your ideas are simply opinions, yet you present them as if the universe accepts them as God's written word. Negatory.
And yes, my "generalization" is based apon thinkings of the minds. Not facts of bull.
I was unaware bulls had the mental capacity to provide us with facts on World of Warcraft </pun>. Anyway, I'm afraid you don't understand the concept of an overgeneralization. When you use broad words, such as 'every', 'everyone' and 'always', you place yourself in a sticky situation. If I find a single instance proving that statement wrong your arguement is thrown out the window.
Lets say you play StarCraft. Now lets say Blizzard started making items (shirts, hats, cups, and other stuff), now lets say you wanted one of them just because you like StarCraft.
Honestly now. Blizzard has been doing this for years. If you really want Blizz merch, just go here: http://shop.blizzard.com/
Although the store may make a small amount of money, the revenue, as I've already said in the past, would not be nearly enough to pay for the GMs and Devs working on WoW. That's life.

Should learn how to read kiddo.

I don't know, I just found that really quite humourous and interesting. I'm finding it harder and harder to believe you're this wise, 21-year-old, BNet, guru that you claim to be.

And no, I'm not planning on buying WoW. I aint payin' to play games. It's either free or I say fuck you.

Awesome! You can stop visiting the World of Warcraft forums then!

[Exedore]

I split this little tangent off into its own topic. Now it's my turn to rant...



Radlin and Richard, for the most part, all of your viewpoints and facts are pure opinion, based loosely on previous PC gaming trends. Here's a short list of some of your mistakes:
- Radlin, online polls mean little, especially ones without strict controls on who votes. For most "poll of week" type things, if you find and delete the cookie - omg, you didn't vote...
- Richard, those percentages for Battle.net usage mean nothing unless you can back them up. I could pull numbers from my ass and they would be just as believable as yours. As far as I know, Blizzard doesn't release usage figures on a regular basis, so there's no way to know the amount of actual use. And if you used the numbers you get when you log on, they don't mean anything. Thos numbers have rarely ever been anywhere near correct, especially for starcraft and diablo2 because of bots and server splits. warcraft3 statistics are a little more accurate because there isn't a large proliferation of bots loggin in through those gateways.
- Blizzard actually has licensed the Starcraft and Warcraft names and content to be used on products in Korea. In a previous Blizzard Insider newsletter, Blizzard had pictures of Undead Cheetos and Protoss childrens shoes that were sold in korea. In a previous year, Frito-Lay also licensed Starcraft images to place on their snack chip packaging in Korea. They probably made A LOT more money on those licensing deals than they've ever made from the North American Blizzard store.
- Games probably cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions to develop. Assume that you have 5 main programmers (most smaller games have about this amount) that each make 60,000 a year (a very low number for CA). You also have graphic/model, sound, and music to take care of. Assume that's another 3 people making 40,000 a year (again, very conservative). Now say the game takes 2 years from development start to release, including initial support. That's over 800,000 for development, and that doesn't include property, equipment, QA testing, publishing costs, etc. Those will probably run development into the 1 to 1.5 million dollar range.


Richard, I think you're really overblowing this. Blizzard will definitely make a profit on WoW - they have the name recognition, hype, and fanbase to do it. The main question is how big will this profit be. Saying that pay to play will be Blizzard's downfall because you hate it is very ignorant. Whenever Blizzard releases a patch with a minor balance issue, everyone flips out and says that they won't play the game again - yet they still do. And even if Blizzard's current fan base doesn't like the idea, WoW, being a different type of game, will bring in a whole new group, who are not opposed to monthly fees for games. Many current everequest players that are in the beta have praised Blizzard left and right. I remeber one saying that an alpha version of WoW was more finished than everquest after release. Additionally, WoW will get a lot of profit from Korea. Most games are played at cyber cafes, and people already pay for monthly memberships there. They probably aren't opposed to paying a little bit more to play WoW there.

As for the Starcraft2 fanbase, they're very similar to the NRA (National Rifle Association). They're not really that big, but they're very vocal and make their precense known. And most of them really have no clue what they're talking about try to act like experienced game designers, but that's a different topic.

[Graeme]

Radlin and Richard, for the most part, all of your viewpoints and facts are pure opinion, based loosely on previous PC gaming trends. Here's a short list of some of your mistakes:
- Radlin, online polls mean little, especially ones without strict controls on who votes. For most "poll of week" type things, if you find and delete the cookie - omg, you didn't vote...

I'd agree with the fact that the majority of my posts were composed of opinion, because . . . well, yes they were my opinion. This is a forum where fans can voice their opinions and viewpoints on the development of games. I wasn't trying to portray rockhard facts, as Rich was.

I should clarify though. The main point I was trying to portray was that MMORPGs (including WoW), do have solid fanbases regardless of the fact that they have monthly fees. The poll was merely taken from a quick google-search to back that point. However, the EQ article proved my point more thoroughly.

[TranquilNightElf]

Well, I think it is human nature to want everything free. But that isn't the way it works. Very few are free, and many cost money. Well in the end, if I am ever to play World of warcraft, it will be if they give me a discount and make it $50 per year to play it and the game can cost $75. But that is just me. Maybe if the fun is worth 10 dollars a month and this game gets the best reviews I will pay the $10 dollars per month.



That's true ..People tend to feel more of a pinch in their pockets when they have to constanttly pay for something time after time.If there was a yearly subscription fee to WoW that would amount up to almost the same thing monthly then that would probably seem more favourable to many.

[Richardc269]

Well then...MY POINT STILL STANDS! I guess you retards can't read can you? No you cannot. As I have stated in my other post....

"As I've said before...about making money...making them pay isn't an "alternative", I said OTHER forms of gaining money. Should learn how to read kiddo. Secondly...your statiscs most likely are still wrong. Wanna know why? Because not everyone votes on it. Mostly because the people who don't vote, don't wanna vote! So it's not entirely correct. If EVERYONE voted, THEN it would be entirely correct now wouldn't it? I think so. Secondly, about paying, everyone on this planet would rather play for free rather than pay. Why? Because it's just the way everyone feels about it. It doesn't matter if someone says "I wouldn't mind" or "Yes if I feel like it", or "Yes I would pay." But guess what? They'll STILL wish they didn't have to pay. Why you wonder? Because it's just the way everyone thinks. Everyone wishes everything was free instead of paying for it no matter HOW much they think it should be paid, they'll STILL wish it was free. So no matter how high your statisistics are, everyone is still ganna wish it was free. And yes, I know this because I know how peoples minds work. Why you wonder? Because I know how people act and respond to things. Put it this way...I used to observe people, (not really stare), but I just caught up on how people acted. I looked around my school a few times, even the neighborhood and saw how everyone acts. And yes, everyone thinks almost the same about certain things. Such as money. Everyone knows they need it to survive on. Everyone knows nothing is free, but they pay for it non the less, why? Because some things are a "need" rather than a "want". There are only a few things that are a "need": Food, water and air. Everything else is a want. Money is not a need, it's a want. Why? Because money is something everyone "wants", not everyone "needs" to surive on. Food is body oriented, money is not, therefore, it's a want. Same with games, their a want. Paying for it, is a want. Paying multiplayer is a want."

Read that statement will you kiddies? Now...since I have said this in the STATE OF MINDS? Wtf do you think that sentance means? It means in THE MINDS OF PEOPLE! Now read what I have stated. I said that even though people WILL pay for it...THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE! Now what does that sentance say? THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE! THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!

Learn to read kiddies. Should I say it again? THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!

Now...if you little boys can read properly...It doesn't matter HOW much people are willing to pay, THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE! Do I make my point clear yet? I hope so.

Another point...as I've said, now matter HOW high your stupid little numbered statistics are, people are what? THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE! Its just the way people think. This isn't about numbers, this isn't about people willing to pay, this isn't about people not willing to pay...this is about how people THINK, NOT what they do. Do I make myself clear yet? If not, then I guess you group of people aren't very bright then.

Now, another thing, Radlin...since your so fucking full of yourself here, I'm going to tell you something here kid. You may be able to prove your points with numbers and back your shit up with crap, but you know what kiddo? I already proved my damned point from BattleCruiser! Shall I say it again? Yes, I will.

"Well, I think it is human nature to want everything free. But that isn't the way it works. Very few are free, and many cost money. I guess most of us were just hoping we could have fun, without being charged monthly. WHen I heard that I could play games online with my friends I was pretty excited. Especially because it was free. What I am talking about is battle.net and gamespy arcade. Well in the end, if I am ever to play World of warcraft, it will be if they give me a discount and make it $50 per year to play it and the game can cost $75. But that is just me. Maybe if the fun is worth 10 dollars a month and this game gets the best reviews I will pay the $10 dollars per month.

Radlin, you don't need to respond to my comment if you don't want to."

Now that was Battle's quote. Now...Radlin...this statement he has made, has proven my point. I win, you lose. And if you don't see it, read his shit until you get it into your damn head: THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!

Thank you for making my point true. Next subject? I already won this war. Have a nice day...twits.

[Seal]

Just stop whining, it's not going to do any good. Go play some 'free' game.

[Graeme]

Hahaha, you sure threw a tantrum Rich^_~. What are you, eight years old? This is a forum where public opinion is voiced. If you can't accept that I have different opinions than you, I don't believe you should be posting on forums. Contain your temper ^_^. If you want to win that badly, fine, you win ^_~.

But first, to prove the backing of your arguement incorrect (as I stated earlier, overgeneralizations almost always destroy any valid points you wish to make):
I said that even though people WILL pay for it...THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!
I would rather pay a monthly fee than not. I realize that a monthly fee is completely necessary to sustain full operation of the game, and without the fee I would receive a game of much less calibre. That's right, I don't want it to be free monthly. The Blizz devs deserve their pay - they've made a great game.

That's true ..People tend to feel more of a pinch in their pockets when they have to constanttly pay for something time after time.If there was a yearly subscription fee to WoW that would amount up to almost the same thing monthly then that would probably seem more favourable to many.

No worries TranquilNightElf. I am 100% sure Blizz will offer packages so you can purchase so many months in advance. Hell, you may even get a discount for purchasing a large amount of months (ie. a full year), as I've seen MMOGs offer this in the past ^_^. As for me, I'll likely purchase 4-6 months every time around or so.

[Richardc269]

omg...you still don't get it...your a fucking retard...well...I already won this war and I'm talking to a bunch of fucking rejected space monkey's. And no, I had no temper you stupid fuck. I'm sorry but your a fucking retard. My point still stands. I won this argument even if you disagree. Have a good day now...retards.

[Exedore]

Richardc269, you've won nothing, you've proven nothing. All you've said is that in general, people would prefer things to be free. I think all of use knew that full and well before you "graced" us with your presence. If you were trying to make an argument for alternative forms of payment for WoW, you failed miserably. In fact, I think the only thing you've succeeded in was angering everyone else in this thread with your blatant ignorance.

[Richardc269]

Well then...I guess your a retard too. Do yourselves a favor and just delete this thread...Exedore...incase you can't read kid...read all my posts until it makes sense, because if it doesn't...well...then I guess your just as stupid as these twits. So save yourself some typing skills an just keep your stupid comments to yourself, cuz yes I did win thank you. Have a nice day.

[Whiteknight]

Yes, you did win in being the person to call people retards and ignore grammar. You also won in stating the obvious. Of course people would like not to pay, but that's all you've clung to through this, that one little statement.

[Richardc269]

What does this Thread say hmm? No wait, I correct myself. What was the last post called? "Are there any free mmorg's?" That's what the original thread said...now...read through ALL of these posts and you will understand what it was about okay? Okay, now go read it all, then you will see I have proven my points. If you don't see, then I guess your just as stupid as these nuts. Oh...and for more imformation. I don't screw up on my grammar, thank you. Now go talk to a brick, it doesn't talk back. It doesn't follow you around after you laid it. Have a nice day kiddies.

[Exedore]

I can read, thank you very much, and your grammar isn't the best either.

Going by your first post in this thread, the paragraph summaries are as follows:

(ignoring the first intro. statement)

1. People don't like to pay montly to play games. Blizzard making WoW is a bad idea and they'll lose money. Here are some ficticious statistics that are supposed to imply how WoW will lose money, but don't

2. Mis-guided rant about how Blizzard doesn't care about customers

3. Stating again that people don't like to pay monthly fees

4. Something about alternative ways to finance WoW


Second Post:

1. Assumption that SC2 will take all the focus away from every other Blizzard game

2. Really bad and mostly incorrect assumption of why Diablo1 hardly has any players, whereas Starcraft does.

3. Something about pay to play not being an "alternative" and how you claim to be omnipotent

4. You don't own and current gaming consoles

5. Broad assumption about the SC community and SC2

6. General insult directed toward everyone who disagreed with you.


I split this because, as you seem to claim, your posts are a reason for there not being free MMO games. Only your first post had any relation to that topic and was basically a general insult. I don't really see what point you "win" on. Other than the fact that in general, people want something to be free over paying a monthly, everything you've said is based on very large and very poor assumptions, as well as your general attitude that you know everything and that everyone else who disagrees is wrong. And I've shown how your assumptions or "facts" were incorrect.

Richardc269, if you have a point to make, state it clearly, not mish-mashed with a collection of poorly concieved "truths."

Oh, and as for grammar:
Because their just ganna lose money on it most likely because Blizzard fans mostly play StarCraft.[...]
There's ALWAYS going to be hackers on Battle Net no matter what the hell they do because hackers are always going to find a loophole in the program and break a hole into it and THEN their ganna hack it.
[...]
(unless their morons)
All instance should use the contraction they're, for they are, not the third person plural possesive pronoun their. And could you please find me a dictionary with "ganna" in it? "Gonna" is an acceptable contraction for going to, which I believe is what you intended, but "ganna?"

Because they hate it, thats why.
I see two dependent clauses, but no independent clause. If you dropped the because from the start, it would be fine.

[Richardc269]

Again I must repeat myself. And no, it doesn't seem like you can read. Pay closer attention to Battle Net and my posts and you will see that my "generalization" and "broad assumptions" aren't wrong at all. If it wasn't wrong, I wouldn't of stated them now would I? No. I only state things which are correct. Second of all, yes SC does have all the popularity. Most of the time it does. Like I said, I have been on Battle Net since 1996. SC has more people playing it than the rest of the Bnet games.

It says that there is a certain amount of players logged on Battle Net. It states: "number" of players logged on (thats the entire Battle Net, not one server). Give you an example. "There are 200,000 players logged on Battle Net, 60,000 playing this certain game, 5,000 channels." and whatever else it states about players. Now...

I have been on 2 realms. East and West. When I log on them both, it has the same numbers of players chatting or playing games. When you log on, it says there is 300k users logged on (sometimes), now, it says 300k, which means the "entire" Battle Net. Meaning, "all" the realms put together. Then it states whatever players playing games, meaning "all" players playing games. Now...to prove my point to you twits that seem to not understand my statement...which is my 4th or 5th time telling...

Almost every time I am on Battle Net...I see that StarCraft, yes, STARCRAFT has the most people playing that game. Why? Because it's a good game. Why else? BECAUSE IT HAS ALL THE POPULARITY! Why? Because it's a good game. The reason why it's this popular is because almost everyone on Battle Net likes to play StarCraft.

Now...WarCraft 3. I usually only see 10k to 20k people playing. LOD gets between 20k and 40k usually. Not always, but usually. StarCraft, gets between 50k and 60k. Diablo 1 gets between 800 to 1500 people a day.

Now your wondering why this is...why? Because StarCraft is getting the popularity, and if you don't believe me, go look your damn self. I see it all the time. StarCraft has TONS of people playing EACH day! On every realm!

Sure I admit some days there's not a lot of people playing sometimes, but you know what? Even if there's not a lot playing, SC still has popularity over the others. Now...do yourselves a favor of ashaming yourselves and go look instead of trying to win a lost war.

As for you Mr Know It All Exedus...your "assumptions" of me are wrong. I did not get mad because of you disagreeing. I didn't get mad at all in fact. I argued with you twits because you can't understand the concept of POPULARITY! Read my posts again...you people obviously don't understand a thing I've said at all. Good day to you.

[Exedore]

Did I not say earlier that the /users messages on Battle.net aren't an accurate reflection of game popularity? They also tend to be farther off on the Starcraft/Diablo2 gateways than on Warcraft3 because the SC/D2 gateways have many more bots and have more frequent server splits, which tend to inflate those numbers. If you want meaningful usage stats, ask Blizzard for the number of accounts that play more than a few hours in games each week. Even then, that doesn't account for bots in Diablo2 and lossbots, which were prevelent in starcraft.

[Richardc269]

Yea well, there isn't very many bots in the first place. Thats only about 2,000 or 3,000 at most. Depending on how many people are logged on. And yes there is 300k users online. Secondly...I haven't seen a "server split" in ages. Last time I saw a server split was 2 or 3 years ago. So I have to disagree with you on that a little bit. And as I've said...each realm says there is a certain amount of people logged on, playing games and in chat rooms. And most of them are on what game? StarCraft, as I've stated. So yes, I am correct thank you. I told you I looked at it myself...

[Graeme]

No. I only state things which are correct.

Hey, that's pretty ironic.

[Exedore]

Yea well, there isn't very many bots in the first place. Thats only about 2,000 or 3,000 at most. Depending on how many people are logged on. And yes there is 300k users online. Secondly...I haven't seen a "server split" in ages. Last time I saw a server split was 2 or 3 years ago. So I have to disagree with you on that a little bit. And as I've said...each realm says there is a certain amount of people logged on, playing games and in chat rooms. And most of them are on what game? StarCraft, as I've stated. So yes, I am correct thank you. I told you I looked at it myself...

Just looking at it now seems to refute what you said. (Figures are rounded to two significant digits) 71,000 Diablo2:LoD users in 38,000 games vs 41,000 Starcraft:Broodwar users in 9,300 games vs 40,000 war3:FT users in 3300 games, with 190,000 users on Battle.net total. There were about 10,000 vanilla Starcraft users. Those figures seem to suggest that Diablo2 is the most popular game right now, with Starcraft as a close second. That's nothing close to the 70% lead you stated for Starcraft. Although it's the middle of the day in Korea, so those figures might skew somewhat later on.

But that still doesn't give an accurate reflection of how many people are playing and how many are just idling. Also, for Starcraft and Warcraft, it doesn't list how many of those games are competative and how many are custom maps (UMS), which don't support the popularity of the actual game, but variations of it.

The point is that those statistics don't give nearly enough information to reach a definitive conclusion. To state anything within an acceptable error margin, you would need far more detailed data, including the number of players at hourly intervals, how many games they play, how many unique accounts those are, etc. Notice the last one. Does having a smaller number of users that play more count more towards "popularity" than a larger number of users that only play for an hour or so each day?

[Richardc269]

First of all, I said it fluctuates now didn't I? I specifically said that it alternates between games. And MOST of the time StarCraft has most of the popularity...as I've said...learn to read posts...your posting bullshit I've stated before kid...do me a favor? Stop boring me with your bullshitting. I already told you that it goes from game to game now didn't I? Idiots...

[Neo]

Funny. The diablo stats are somewhat correct, back when I played often (I may again, ladder restarted xD) Diablo II routinely hit upwards of 60k + people all the time. Except for early-mornings (from about 4-8 I think).

Anyways, I think D2 may currently hold the most people getting on over a period of time... Especially now that the Ladder has been reset. That will drag in alot of people who play Starcraft, Or War3.

... Exedore you really more patient then I am.

I would like to mention thisthough -- Unless I am given a reason, or stunned, or just having alot of fun with the game, I would almost never pay to play a MMORPG. Though to be fair, IF they kept things up to date, had friendly GMs, and dealt with asshole players then I would happily play to get away from the normal idiocy and ingorance that is Battle.net.

Oh thats kinda funny. People didnt move from Diablo I to Starcraft... they moved to Diablo II. Starcraft was released in 98, D2 was released in 97.

You have all the facts eh?

The original Diablo®, which released January 1997, debuted at number one in the United States and was named Game of the Year.

StarCraft®, released in March 1998

-Neo

[Richardc269]

Yes I do have my facts straight. I saw Diablo 1 in 8th grade...let's see...I was 14, (or almost), let's see, 2004-8=1996. Hmm...interesting. I am now 21, I was 13 at the time.

I even have a CD Jewel Case of Diablo 1. And "Computer Gaming World" called it "Game of the Year" in 1996. Hmmm...well...what do you say to that my friend?

Diablo 1, 1996, StarCraft, 1998, Diablo 2, 1999, LOD 2000, WC3, 2001, TFT, 2002. Hmm...yes...I seem to be correct...any other things you'd like to mention that are incorrect? Hmm? Well...as I have said...if I say it, what does it mean? Means I am correct. If I don't say it? Means I'm not correct. Thank you. Yet again, I win.

And as I've stated before, when StarCraft came out...most of Diablo's popularity has dived. Almost no one on B.net talks about Diablo 1. Why? Because it's old. Or, simply because they were 7 or 8 when it came out. And I bet you, 50 years from now, people are still going to recognize StarCraft and WarCraft 3. Why? Because they are good games. Why else? Because they have popularity and have been rated the best games of the year. StarCraft was rated best game of the year. Why? Because it was made very well. And if Blizzard continues to make great games, they will stay in business. Secondly...if your in California, the best time to go on B.net would be in the evening because everyone is on at that time (usually). Anyway...I'll be going to sleep about now. Cya.

[Graeme]

Geeze, the only thing you seem to have is posting stamina Rich. It's not that every one of your points isn't invalid, it's more that most people don't have the abundance of time to reply to these giant posts filled with completely inane garbage. You haven't proven or won anything.

Diablo 1, 1996, StarCraft, 1998, Diablo 2, 1999, LOD 2000, WC3, 2001, TFT, 2002.

As for you being 'correct' in everything you say, Diablo 2 was released in 2000, LoD was released in 2001, Warcraft III was released in 2002, The Frozen Throne was released in 2003.

And please, take an English class or two. This is pathetic for a man of your age. *sigh*

[Modred]

I could say many things. For example, how richardc269 has insulted us all multiple times, has insulted moderators, has constantly repeated the same ideas without much change, has implied that he is always correct and thus won't consider other viewpoints, has implied, without proof, that he is an all-knowing Blizzard insider, and has constantly whined about WoW, a game which he will not even buy, not having free online multiplayer, despite both Radlin and myself (in another thread) explaining that MMORPGs require a different type of server.

Why am I even reading this junk?

Now read what I have stated. I said that even though people WILL pay for it...THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE! Now what does that sentance say? THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE! THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!THEY STILL WISH IT WAS FREE!

1) Stop yelling in every post, CAPS are difficult to read. Thank you.
2) I wish that PhotoShop, Computers, Food, Cars and Houses were free, but I will pay for them also.

[Richardc269]

Oh I'm sorry Mr Radlin...should I give you a King's chair hmm? Ha! I don't need an English class, thank you.

Yes I did win, you just don't see the point. What are you? A bunch of fuckin' idiots? I already proved my points, yet you're sitting here, acting as if you know everything. Which you don't. I know I don't know "everything", but I don't go around saying that, now do I? No I do not. But this pathetic bullshit of not understanding my posts? You can do better than that kids. And no, it is not "inane garbage", sorry to burst your bubble, kid, and yes I have proven my point. BattleCruiser already proved my point, which I already stated, yet you sit here and complain about bullshit.

As for "yelling in every post"? A little incorrect there buddy. In fact, I haven't. Very observant of you, hmm...

And yes, I already knew that WoW would require another server, I already knew they'd make you pay otherwise. I already knew that shit. I have been using computers since I was 8 years old. I am 21 at the moment. Hmm...thats a lot of time.

Secondly...this "people not wanting to pay" thing...is actually true. Yet again I must make a statement, and here it is:

First I would like to tell you little 10 year olds something, which you're finding hard to understand (which is why I'm posting this shit in the first place). To make you understand, I will have to explain something else here.

Now...everyone knows that nothing is free in this world. Not even air is free, we all know that. But as I have stated, everyone pays for everything, but you know what? They all wish it was free. Why? Because it's just the way people think, and the way people think, is almost the same. Yes, it is, why? Because we were just made that way. It isn't media that gives out bullshit to people that makes them act certain ways, it isn't the kids down the street corner trying to sell your son drugs, it's not the news spreading rumor of lies about things. It's people's own reactions to things. Let's say your a person with depression problems, and it never gets better. The reason why it never gets better, is because it's the way you react to things, it's not the person saying it, it's your own reactions to "what" he is doing. Such as he calls you a ******, and you take offense to it, thats what your reaction to it is, not only that, but it makes you depressed.

Now...the reason why everyone wishes everything was free, is because they simply just don't want to spend the time to go through rediculas bullshit (like anyone wants to) of having to pay money for shit they can have. Let's say you have a Dial-Up connection, a lot of people have this method of internet, like me, but if you ask me, dial-up shouldn't even cost money in the first place because it's slow as hell, but you have to pay for it anyway. Why? Because it's an access, it's a useable thing to get money out of people that "want" to use it.

Another little item here, is having to pay for games on-line. Now, I will explain something to you here. Even though people pay for it, they are still going to wish it was free. Why is that? It's just the way the mind thinks. It's just the way everyone feels about it. It does not matter how much you are willing to pay for it, your mind is still going to wish it was still free. Why? Because it's just the way your mind thinks. It's the way everyone's mind thinks. No matter how willing you are to pay...it's still going to wish it was free. And that is also because everyone else does the same, and since everyone else thinks the same, your mind does the same. It's just like people yawning, it's contageous, and so is the way you think. Even though everyone's mind is different, there is one little part in there that is the same. The way people think as a whole.

Now...I hope I won't have to explain this bullshit to you kiddies again. And, finally...if you twits don't think I've won...well, then I guess you just don't understand shit at all. I have won this damned thing, I have proven my points and yet you don't see them...it's rather pathetic how many people on this planet we have that simply just don't understand the concept of the way people think. And don't start giving me shit on my own self, if you don't have anything at all "intelligent" to say, just keep it in your ass, because I don't need to hear your rambling bullshit that I insulted you. And it's only insults if you have a reaction to it! Now then...I'm bored of this stupid post...do yourselves a favor, and just end this stupid thread. Make a new one or something. I'm done...and if you keep rambling...I'll just post another one, and it won't end. Good day to you.

[Exedore]

Oh I'm sorry Mr Radlin...should I give you a King's chair hmm? Ha! I don't need an English class, thank you. Are you sure about that? What does the word rediculas mean, which you wrote in your last post? I believe what you mean is ridiculous, which is what your claims are.

Yes I did win Ok, fine. You win nothing. Are you happy?
you just don't see the point. Probably because there never was a point in your posts.
What are you? A bunch of fuckin' idiots? I already proved my points, yet you're sitting here, acting as if you know everything. Which you don't. *hands Richardc269 a mirror*
I know I don't know "everything", but I don't go around saying that, now do I? You sure seem to

[...] and yes I have proven my point. BattleCruiser already proved my point, which I already stated, yet you sit here and complain about bullshit.

So one person agreeing with you implies that the vast majority of the world's population agrees with you?

Secondly...this "people not wanting to pay" thing...is actually true. Yet again I must make a statement, and here it is:

Now...everyone knows that nothing is free in this world. Not even air is free, we all know that. But as I have stated, everyone pays for everything, but you know what? They all wish it was free. No one ever disagreed with you on that point.

Now...the reason why everyone wishes everything was free, is because they simply just don't want to spend the time to go through rediculas bullshit (like anyone wants to) of having to pay money for shit they can have.

Lovely use of "pronouns" there...

[ranting that repeats what was said before]

So, could you tell me in one to three sentences what the point your trying to prove is? You say we can't find it. Perhaps that is because you never clearly stated it anywhere? You don't have to back it up in those three sentence, just state what you claim we aren't seeing.

If you're trying to show that people in general wish for things to be free will cause a pay to play games to fail, then you really need to get your head out of the closet. I wish everything would be free, but I accept the fact that that won't happen. For example, cable television isn't free, but I'll voluntarily pay for it every month because it entertains me. If a game entertains me enough that I'm willing to pay for it monthly, I will, and I'm sure other people will pay as well.

[Richardc269]

I win "nothing"? Sorry. I won this whole argument.

You don't see the whole reason for this argument? Oh my god, you are one sad kid, you know that? And no, I never said I knew everything, did I? No, I did not. Yes I ranted, 1, was because you monkey's seem to not understand what my posts are, which yes, in fact I did clearly put out. This whole "free" thing was the point I was making. How the fuck can you not see that? Do you not understand that concept? Jesus fucking christ.

"So one person agreeing with you implies that the vast majority of the world's population agrees with you?" No. I simply stated that I was correct. Now, if you just some how understood that in the beginning...I wouldn't still be here. I can't believe how blind you kids are. I sit here, explain everything here in detail, and you simply just cannot understand the concept of how people think, and you also proved my point. So yes, I have won this entire thing. Just do yourself a favor an just shut up about it already instead of ambarrassing yourself constantly, because I'll just point out more stupidity on your side that you simply cannot understand the concept of what I said. If you still can't...go to the other post and read from the beginning, and do it several times until you get it into your thick skull. Have fun kids.

[Modred]

Yes I did win, you just don't see the point. What are you? A bunch of fuckin' idiots? I already proved my points, yet you're sitting here, acting as if you know everything. Which you don't. I know I don't know "everything", but I don't go around saying that, now do I? No I do not. But this pathetic bullshit of not understanding my posts? You can do better than that kids. And no, it is not "inane garbage", sorry to burst your bubble, kid, and yes I have proven my point. BattleCruiser already proved my point, which I already stated, yet you sit here and complain about bullshit.

Battlecruiser didn't prove your point. He just said that he wished it was free, even though he would pay anyway. Which is the way with most anything in life.

As for "yelling in every post"? A little incorrect there buddy. In fact, I haven't. Very observant of you, hmm...

Alright, you didn't yell in this one.

And yes, I already knew that WoW would require another server, I already knew they'd make you pay otherwise. I already knew that shit. I have been using computers since I was 8 years old. I am 21 at the moment. Hmm...thats a lot of time.

Apparently you haven't learned anything. It isn't just that it requires another server, it requires a different type of server that costs more money to maintain.

Secondly...this "people not wanting to pay" thing...is actually true. Yet again I must make a statement, and here it is:

I agree that people don't like to pay for things.

First I would like to tell you little 10 year olds something, which you're finding hard to understand (which is why I'm posting this shit in the first place). To make you understand, I will have to explain something else here.

You said you were going to explain in this paragraph in the previous paragraph, but instead just insulted us all.

Now...everyone knows that nothing is free in this world. Not even air is free, we all know that.

I don't pay for air.

It isn't media that gives out bullshit to people that makes them act certain ways, it isn't the kids down the street corner trying to sell your son drugs, it's not the news spreading rumor of lies about things.

None of that has anything to do with your argument.

It's people's own reactions to things. Let's say your a person with depression problems, and it never gets better. The reason why it never gets better, is because it's the way you react to things, it's not the person saying it, it's your own reactions to "what" he is doing. Such as he calls you a ******, and you take offense to it, thats what your reaction to it is, not only that, but it makes you depressed.

Well expressed, but it still has nothing to do with your argument.

Now...the reason why everyone wishes everything was free, is because they simply just don't want to spend the time to go through rediculas bullshit (like anyone wants to) of having to pay money for shit they can have.

Rediculous. Well, I can have a computer, I can have a house, I can have anything. Are you suggesting that I not pay for any of that if I can take it free?

Let's say you have a Dial-Up connection, a lot of people have this method of internet, like me, but if you ask me, dial-up shouldn't even cost money in the first place because it's slow as hell, but you have to pay for it anyway. Why? Because it's an access, it's a useable thing to get money out of people that "want" to use it.

There are free Dial-Up services.

Another little item here, is having to pay for games on-line.

Finally, you start on your point after...what is it...three paragraphs of padding!!

Now, I will explain something to you here. Even though people pay for it, they are still going to wish it was free. Why is that? It's just the way the mind thinks. It's just the way everyone feels about it.

You have said that at least three times in this post already. Redundancy does not increase interest, in fact, it decreases it.

Now...I hope I won't have to explain this bullshit to you kiddies again. And, finally...if you twits don't think I've won...well, then I guess you just don't understand shit at all. I have won this damned thing, I have proven my points and yet you don't see them...it's rather pathetic how many people on this planet we have that simply just don't understand the concept of the way people think.

Some of us prefer to think for ourselves, rather than follow a carboard cut out created by someone like you. Your entire lesson on "the way people think" had very little to do with your argument as a whole, which was "why Blizzard sucks."

And don't start giving me shit on my own self, if you don't have anything at all "intelligent" to say, just keep it in your ass, because I don't need to hear your rambling bullshit that I insulted you. And it's only insults if you have a reaction to it! Now then...I'm bored of this stupid post...do yourselves a favor, and just end this stupid thread. Make a new one or something. I'm done...and if you keep rambling...I'll just post another one, and it won't end. Good day to you.

Notice, when normal people are insulted, they ask for an apology. Has anyone done that? We are being extremely patient with you. We don't have to listen to your ranting and raving. In fact, I am considering muting you so that I no longer see your posts. Perhaps that is the best thing. Anyway, you have done quite a bit more rambling than some of us have.

Jesus fucking christ

-300 pts for blasphemy :p

Yes I ranted, 1, was because you monkey's seem to not understand what my posts are, which yes, in fact I did clearly put out. This whole "free" thing was the point I was making. How the fuck can you not see that? Do you not understand that concept?

There you go with the insults again. Also, I thought you were ranting about how much Blizzard sucks for charging you to play games. And explain exactly what you meant by "free thing;" do you mean how WoW should be free online, or how people wish everything was free because of human nature? Or do you even know?

If you still can't...go to the other post and read from the beginning, and do it several times until you get it into your thick skull.

Why read the entire thing? You said the same thing in every post. They generally ran like this:

You ten year olds don't know anything
People want things to be free
I've been online since I was eight
So WoW should have free multiplayer
You are idiots
Shut up

Ooh...sure makes me want to respect your opinion. Considering that much of what you said was opinion.

[Exedore]

You know, if you just stated your point clearly from the start instead of trying to patronize everyone that disagreed with your bunk theories originating from this minute point, this thread would probably have lasted about half a page.

Just do yourself a favor an just shut up about it already instead of ambarrassing yourself constantly

You should heed your own advice, "Mr. English wizard." I'm sure that no one here supports someone who tries to assure himself/herself of his/her flawed views by talking down to them. And please, tell me how you "win" an arguement if no one is agreeing with you.

[Dark_Soul74]

Here's what I've gotten out of this thread, after rereading several times:

1) Original Diablo doesn't have much people on anymore. - Well, it's an eight year old game with little customization and had D2 for people to turn to instead of it.
2) We're 10 year old monkeys with horrible brain defects. - Then how the hell do we use computers? And besides, 10 year old monkeys are adults.
3) Blizzard is a horrible business that wants us dead. - Then why do they take all the time, money, and effort to go through the beta process for WoW, and provide reliable patching and online server use for it's other games.
4) People don't want to pay for things. - Yeah, we'd like things to be free. However, if things are worth it(ie fun enough), we'll pay if we have sufficient funds.

I myself in willing to pay whatever cost(as long as my budget can support it and it isn't completely crazy) to play WoW. Having seen the beta(yay friends), I am very impressed with how it is progressing, and it isn't even complete yet.

[Richardc269]

My posts have nothing to do with you agreeing or disagreeing. I couldn't give a shit less if you agree, I couldn't care less. Yet again you fail to see my points...

"Why read the entire thing? You said the same thing in every post. They generally ran like this:

You ten year olds don't know anything
People want things to be free
I've been online since I was eight
So WoW should have free multiplayer
You are idiots
Shut up"

WRONG. Incorrect. I didn't say "you ten year olds don't know anything" now did I? No, therefore you're incorrect. I never said it should of been fucking free. God damn you're pathetic, you know that? You twist the fucking words up the god damn kazoo. Oh...and for as it being "out of topic", sorry kiddo, but yes, it was in fact IN topic. I was merely explaining things, which you yet again fail to recognize...again. It's amazing how you people fail to understand the concept of how people think...and no, I won't apologize to you. You're not even worth the effort.

Oh...now you're going to put me on mute...yea, great way to deal with life kiddo. You have to hide behind a stupid little button like a 10 year old. I wonder if that's how you deal with life...you cower behind things and don't go up face to face with it. Jeeze...pathetic, I doubt you even muted me, ha! What a loser...I'm through with trying to explain shit to you little misunderstood monkey's. You just simply can't understand anything can you? Ha! You make me laugh...here I explain things to you, and you just sit there telling me that it wasn't relevent. Well guess what? It was. And you know what else? You just simply can't understand shit if it hit you in the damn face. Oh...and by the way...yes, you do pay for air dipshit...it's called an AIR CONDITIONER! Ever heard of it? Yea right...it's called paying for electricity. Oh...and you proved my point...again. Ha! Suck my cock, asshole. Do the world a favor an go play in the freeway okay? Cuz frankly, I don't give a shit. Go talk shit behind my back, I could care less. And if your going to insult me, fine, go right ahead. I'll just laugh at your feeble attempts, because 1, insults don't effect me. Why? Because I don't let shit get to me. I grew an immune to it. I just shrug my shoulders and not care. So, do yourself a favor, and don't try to insult me, because it's just going to bore the hell out of me until you actually have anything "intelligent" to say. And I don't really care if the posts are relevent or not. So yea, mute me, hide from it, go on, do it, damn pussies. Learn to deal with life ya turd. Cuz for one thing, life is always ganna fuck you in the ass no matter wtf you do. Life already fucked you in the ass when your born, so why not let it fuck you some more? Ha! I'm finished here...talk about somethin' else, or just entirely make a new thread. Hell, I could come up with some better shit than you can, given the correct circumstances, I'd outwit your ass in it. Ha! Have fun with yourselves...

[Dark_Soul74]

WRONG. Incorrect. I didn't say "you ten year olds don't know anything" now did I?
and I'm talking to a bunch of fucking rejected space monkey's.
First I would like to tell you little 10 year olds something

Also, when you pay for an airconditioner, you don't pay for air at all. You pay for the initial metal/plastic based product, and the electricity to run it(unless you get your own through some other way). It pushes air through it, not magically make it or get it from inside itself. People buy them because they want them because they are too hot. People buy games because they want them because they are too bored or want something to do to relax and have fun.

They might be muting you because they don't want to deal with what they view as completely retarded posts. It in no way means that they are cowards who will shirk everything risky. It simply means that your posts are annoying, so they're basically 'swatting the fly'.

This is turning into a, crappy, one-sided, ineffective flame-war. Perhaps some closes should be in order, or at least clearing out the posts that are useless.

[Exedore]

This is turning into a, crappy, one-sided, ineffective flame-war. Perhaps some closes should be in order, or at least clearing out the posts that are useless.

Agreed