Tech Levels and Upgrades

[3Vee]

The discussion in the last Q&A thread (here: http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=31176) sparked by the Colussus' cliff-climbing ability especially relating to the new Supply Depot seemed interesting enough to merit its own thread, although a bit more generalized.

The topic here is, what do you think Blizzard should do with upgrade/tech-levels in SC2? SC and BW of course use a fairly standard three-tier system (although Terran almost have split mid-level tech, what with 'Bat and Vult and then Tank and Goliath). WCIII worked about the same way. So far it looks like SCII is following the same model, although maybe not quite as cleanly (imo).

What I'm more curious about though is the question of upgrades. Hypothesizing that the Colossus could climb buildings, someone suggested an upgrade to Depots (at least) that would prevent this. Other ideas you can of course come up with, of the "upgrade this so it's no longer weak against that" mentality. Other actual upgrades that seem a little bit like this are the Marine HP upgrades (seriously, why the upgrade except for surviveability against heavier units which would seem to be natural counters?) and the BC Plasma Torpedoes ("Hmm, what can deal with a BC effectively? Marines! Hydras! Have to be able to counter that..."). Of course, some level of upgrade is necessary to add interest and strategy to the game, but how far do you take it?

[TitanWing]

An upgrade designed soley to cancel one unit's ability (Depot/Colossus) is a game of rock-paper-scissors, which I dislike.

The Colossus already has a lot of flexibility, it doesn't need to walk EVERYWHERE.

[SilverCrusader]

Sure it does.

[Protogod]

TBH, if it's a several-thousand-ton (presumably) machine, specifically designed for war, one would imagine that it could not only stepOVER suply depots, but trample them.

I really don't see a reason they shouldnt be able to step over small buildings.

[SilverCrusader]

Unless you have a large circle of supply depots around your base anyway, it is just going to go around it and up or down a cliff into your base. So unless your base is surrouded by water, your still screwed, just about 1 second later than you were before.

[SlickR]

Colossi should be abble to cross over low and small buildings like supply depots, pylons, bunkers etc...
As far as upgrades go it needs to follow sc tech tree to some point but not exactly though.
About the upgraded BC marrines and other small units killer that is very correct in the demo. I hope its been balanced already and should be abble to kill like 10-12 non upgraded marines without medics.
If its not balanced I have a feeling terran would become my favorite race with the imba BC, thors and now the AOE area effect of the defensive matrix. I also hope high tier units like the mothership, BC, thor don't overcome smaller units roles in later game as well as be too powerful for lower tier units to handle them!

[Kellanved]

If a ship has the same air attack as ground (such as the BC or mutalisk) and their air-air range is R, and their height is h, their range against ground should be (R² - h²)^0.5 (ignoring such things like atmospheric effects, etc) not R as Blizzard has made it (in fact, that's very unrealistic that they have the same anti-ground range as anti-air range). But it would be imbalanced, because it would suck for the air unit if their range was corrected that way (it means they'd have to go very near the ground unit to shoot them).

Therefore Blizzard prioritizes balance over realistic mechanics. So don't debate whether the Colossus realistically should walk over buildings, just if it's good for balance or not.

Also, plasma torpedos likely won't rip apart marines as fast as they did in the demo. Likely the dps of plasma would be less than the BC's regular attack, otherwise it would be cheap as hell. In that case, if the enemy has only mechanical units, you're better off with Yamato. Blizzard wants infantry to play a role throughout the game in most cases (as they only do with zerg now, generally). That's why there's a top-of-tree ability that utilizes infantry (ghost call-down).

[vIsitor]

Personally, I think upgrades should go to...

<unnecessary dramatic pause>

...level four.

[ChimTheGrim21]

I say they should be able to step over the depots, BUT they will be slowed a bit in doing so (when walking on top of the depots). This will still give the depots a reason for "walling." And seige tanks can be placed more strategically to deal with in coming colossi.

[Ktan]

Therefore Blizzard prioritizes balance over realistic mechanics. So don't debate whether the Colossus realistically should walk over buildings, just if it's good for balance or not.

On principle, I agree, but there's a difference between 'realism' (or at least it seems so from what people are stating) and being physically possible.

Basically, it's very easy for us, as players, to suspend our disbelief when a Marine shoots at a Battlecruiser, because the fluff tells us that he's shooting hyper-sonic spikes, so, despite the mathematics being off, we don't bother doing the math and just lap it up.

However, common sense can override things here. A Marine shooting a BC can make sense, even if not mathematically possible. However, a massive twenty foot walker not being able to walk over a very small building, possibly only as big as a modern day bungalow, doesn't make sense.

However, it is possible that the buildings are scaled down, and thus it would be as big as something like a modern two story house, for example.

Alternatively, the Terrans could 'electrify' the tops of depots in fluff to short the Collosi's circuits. Of course, it would be more logical to assume the scale option, since if they could electrify depots, or w/e, they would surely use that against the Zerg too.

[SilverCrusader]

Personally, I think upgrades should go to...

<unnecessary dramatic pause>

...level four.
You can already do so in SC 1, just by using an advanced editor.

Alternatively, the Terrans could 'electrify' the tops of depots in fluff to short the Collosi's circuits. Of course, it would be more logical to assume the scale option, since if they could electrify depots, or w/e, they would surely use that against the Zerg too.
Starshiop troopers?

[gamer102]

NO...SILENCE...make it 5... it sounds good... 5..55555...yes


lol i made wc3 editor so that the max upgrades were up to 5000, not 100... soo...if blizzard is still doing the "mpq" file structure.. then people will have mods and cool stuff in about 3 days and if sc2 isnt going to have Any type of editor... we'll make one..

and sc was made like idk long time ago... so 255 was i guess the max number of upgrade it could process oh but the alternate player colors you got from starforge? i think it was... was sweet and square terrain... i hope they make bound maps... and of course.. blizzard will have a couple of thier custom maps as well

[Kawagata]

If a ship has the same air attack as ground (such as the BC or mutalisk) and their air-air range is R, and their height is h, their range against ground should be (R² - h²)^0.5 (ignoring such things like atmospheric effects, etc) not R as Blizzard has made it (in fact, that's very unrealistic that they have the same anti-ground range as anti-air range). But it would be imbalanced, because it would suck for the air unit if their range was corrected that way (it means they'd have to go very near the ground unit to shoot them).

what a load of crock..
Air units with missles actually have an eliptical range when aiming at the ground since the projectile already has the same speed as the aircraft before even fired. Also acceleration pulls the projectile down to the ground so this is really based on accuracy. The higher the airplane, the further the range because then the missle will have more time to naturally accelerate.

I'm not even going to debate about lasers or plasma weapons because it's pretty much impossible for it to be laser and wtf is plasma weapon really? Laser is easily stopped by fog or dust particles.

[Dayoh]

I kinda dont think there going into that much detail with the game...

[Ktan]

I'm not even going to debate about lasers or plasma weapons because it's pretty much impossible for it to be laser and wtf is plasma weapon really? Laser is easily stopped by fog or dust particles.

Depends on the laser, but you do get an effect called 'blooming' which causes the bolt/beam to dissipate. Many theories actually go with the line of saying that most 'laser' guns in sci-fi are actually particle accelerators instead, because they'd share similar properties.

And plasma is an ionised (usually super heated) gas. The principle behind plasma weapons is that you use a magnetic containment field that collpases after a certain distance or after contact with a solid object. Ofc, this is al but impossible to do at the moment, so the only feasible method thus far would be to use a cylindrical containment field, making it more of a Plasma Ray Gun than anything.

This is based mostly of stuff from Wikipedia, but wiki is actually very reliable when it comes to Physics.

Not really pertinent to the thread, but I thought it would be best we nail these things down before the Physics Q&A session starts again.

[Protogod]

And plasma is an ionised (usually super heated) gas. The principle behind plasma weapons is that you use a magnetic containment field that collpases after a certain distance or after contact with a solid object. Ofc, this is al but impossible to do at the moment, so the only feasible method thus far would be to use a cylindrical containment field, making it more of a Plasma Ray Gun than anything.


Also, going by the age-old starwars tech from the history channel, an encapsulated plasma weapon would work (and look) just like weapons shown in games adn sci fi stuff.

[Kellanved]

what a load of crock..
Air units with missles actually have an eliptical range when aiming at the ground since the projectile already has the same speed as the aircraft before even fired. Also acceleration pulls the projectile down to the ground so this is really based on accuracy. The higher the airplane, the further the range because then the missle will have more time to naturally accelerate.


I didn't want to go further, but you are debating physics with me so I'll justify myself. If we consider the factor you brought up, acceleration of gravity, denoted by the relation (where y is the height) d²y/dt² = g, a constant, for which the solution is y = y(0) + vy(0)*t + 1/2*g*t² (from a little integration; I'll show you if you don't trust it) where vy is dy/dt. We know that the missle speed of an air unit (let's take the mutalisk for it shoots almost the slowest of all things) is such that it can launch against its air target and trust that it should hit the target before making any vertical displacement which gives us |v|*t >> 1/2*g*t² (where |v| is speed). Given, also that the missle's airborne lifetime is the same against air targets and ground targets shows us that the mutalisk is using the y component of |v| to reach the target. That is vy*t = |v|t*sin(w) >> 1/2*g*t² (where w is the angle from horizontal plane).

I'm not trying to put you off with all the symbols, it's just that I have an easier time expressing my stance this way than in all words (one of my greatest fallbacks, and a major reason I'm not in the arts). If I can try and sum it up in words, I think all I need to say is that given the missle speed, vertical deflection of gravity is negligible; consequently its trajectory is close enough to a straight line to use linear algebra.

Also remember that my original argument is that Blizzard prioritizes game balance over proper mechanics. So to those who want to interject, I'm not criticising Blizzard's lack of proper mechanics.

[deadkat]

Incorporate building sizes, like unit sizes?

Small, medium, and large; where large buildings are impassable by Colossi and Reapers?

So then Supply Depot, Barracks, CC, and such would be large.

[SilverCrusader]

Hmmm... maybe... perhaps armor system.

[deadkat]

Then again, not everything needs be realistic...

Just like the Marine is roughly 1/5 the size of a Battlecruiser.

[Kellanved]

Incorporate building sizes, like unit sizes?

Small, medium, and large; where large buildings are impassable by Colossi and Reapers?

So then Supply Depot, Barracks, CC, and such would be large.
Why would supply depots be 'large' when they're clearly amongst the smallest of buildings?

SC1 incorporated all buildings into the unit size system; they just made all of them 'large'.