SC2 without MBS/autocast/automine

[Ahzz]

I found these posts on gg.net, and they are EXACTLY how I think, and I felt like I would share my feelings:
http://sc.gosugamers.net/thread/158989


It's been a while since i've posted in the SC2 topic area, however there are
things i think we need to talk about. First let me say that did play sc2 at
blizzcon and i was quite impressed with it. This game definitely has the
potential to be an incredibly successful RTS game. I enjoyed almost every
aspect of the game except for the interface; and that's what i'm going to talk
about now.

I want starcraft 2 to be the best rts game ever. I don't want another warcraft 3.
I also don't want silly newbie that brings this game a step down from
it's older brother. And at the same time i definitely want to keep the game
progressive so that we can attract new players.

I'm afraid of MBS (multiple building selection) and automining. I played SC2
at blizzcon for over seven hours. I was allowed to play the game the day before it
was showed off at at blizzcon and there were so many things i loved about it.
However, the MBS and automining felt absolutely terrible. It made sc2 feel
A LOT slower than sc and that's very disappointing.

Now i know I've said i thought MBS could be a good thing. I was definitely wrong.
It felt awfully newbie--macroing just wasn't fun. Tie this in with auto mining
and it got even worse. I hardly had to think at all about my base. I think this
could have massive negative ramifications on the competitive scene. Do we really
want Starcraft 2 to always be known as the more popular but easier RTS game in
the series? I would like to see it step up on all levels.

But what the hell are we supposed to do with these players who would find SC2
too hard without MBS and auto mining? My solution is to keep MBS and auto mining
a setting that can only be played in non competitive games or Blizzar can make it
an option like Speed of the game or Melee or Free for all in order to make it
on/off

We all know BGH right? This mode of play is for players who aren't interested
in expanding, they aren't interested in teching in a very mathematical or precise
way. To say the very least, BGH players play a different and more simple version
of starcraft. I'm not by ANY means saying that's bad. BGH players make up a huge
part of the sc population. But i think you all would be as frustrated as i am if
blizzard hosted BGH ladders and ONLY bgh style ladders. In fact, we don't even
see BGH ladders around because for the most part SC players who want to be the
best try to master low money maps because it's more difficult and there fore more
attractive.

Lets keep MBS and auto mining in SC2, but out of competitive ladder play and
tournaments. By doing this the new players who pick up SC2 and want to use an
easier interface and play for fun can do this while the hard core competitive
players, like me, can still play on a ladder where it was as fun and challenging
as the old SC.

If people could learn this in the original starcraft why cant they learn to macro
in SC2? Especially since everyone i heard from who played SC2 says it makes macro
too simple.

Just the idea of making auto-mine, auto-repair, auto-build,
multiple building selection, yada yada yada is disgusting to me. What has
caused us as Starcraft players to want to drift towards the things that games
such as Warcraft 3, and Command and Conquer contains, when they are not even
nearly as great in popularity and skill gap.

Warcraft 3 has been out for a good amount of time, a few years, and they have
less players than a game that is twice its age! Doesn't it make you wonder why?
Why is Starcraft so popular? What would make someone to choose Starcraft, a game
that has been on the market, 10 years this upcoming winter, when there are games
with newer interfaces, newer and more advanced graphics, and everyone is leveled
out in the beginning to allow an early start to become a reknown player such as
Boxer who was known within a year after the game was out. That could be you!
You can be the next boxer! All you have to do, is choose what game to play!

But as you can see obviously, these games don't even last very long.
The new C&C Tiberian Wars for example, is doing horrible. I personally went 40-2
in the game, and I never played the C&C's that came before it.
Is that what we are trying to do? Do you really want it possible for someone
who has NEVER before played a game with no knowledge of build orders and timing
to be able to do so well? I personally do not.

When we think about what can make Starcraft II such a great game, we have to
think about what it is going to be based on. Starcraft: Brood War obviously
will be the answer. We all know for a fact, since we all view TeamLiquid that
Starcraft: Brood War is one of the most competitive games out there, we have
prize purses of hundreds of thousands of dollars, players have fan clubs
of hundreds of thousands, and people are making a living off playing a game!
While that is at the professional league, we have players who don't even play
in the competitive scene, nor are they even AWARE of it. Yet they have happily
doing their business being a fan of the game that we all love.

If we are going to make Starcraft II a competitor in the RTS Competitive scene,
we have to understand what makes games stable in that scene. First of all,
we need a skill differential between those who play hours on end to get good,
and keep that skill, and those who play one game a week, playing vs random computers
on a fastest map possible. Of course we will want the person who plays 12 hours
a day, perfecting every tiny detail about their play to be able to win flawlessly
against the latter.

By taking away things that people take months to perfect, such as automining,
and auto-repair, auto-building interceptors etc... takes away things that people
spend months, if not years to perfect. The skill gap will be greatly reduced.
Multiple Building Selection once again, takes away that gap that differentiates
a skilled learned player and one who just bought the game that week.

It is a known fact that Starcraft is a macro-orientated game. For instance,
we focus our times timing expansions, build orders, reacting to our opponents
build orders, creating the right amount and type of units, the production of
supplies, or in starcraft II's case, food, building production, etc... When
we take away things that make Starcraft what it is, it loses that feeling.
but just through all of the press, it seems as if it is being more orientated
to micro. Why should a player such as the monster, cheater terran (iloveoov),
give up his amazing skills so someone who just bought the game can preform
in macro management in such a way that it competes with him.

I think it is a very poor decision that blizzard is partaking in reducing
the things that make Starcraft such a skill differentiated game, and lowering
that skill gap to allow players be able to play just as well if not better than
those who practice hundreds of hours every week?

Do you want a game to play it or a Game that play for you?
easy mode: MBS/auto mining and Autocasting(Shift+Click)ON
hard mode: MBS/auto mining and Autocasting(Shift+Click)OFF

Say no to this Automated Things

Not only that,
i could not have said it better nony~ i Think MBS is a joke.. Why Do we want SC TO BE LIKE EVERY OTHER SUCKY RTS??? WHERE IS THE LOGIC IN THAT?? who wants to play sc2 competitively if the game sucks like 99% of all the other RTS's out there.. When Blizzard FIRST ANNOUNCED SC2 They Said it was going to be sticking to the roots Of Starcraft brood war.. well then if thats the case why are they decideing now.. they want to be like CC3 AoE WC3 ?? THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT 3.. WE DONT WANT HerO's in sc... just like we Dont want MBS .. and i think i speak for EVERY NONE NEWB AMERICAN STARCRAFT PLAYER..

MBS is not going to help the Game.. its not going to bring more ppl to play the game... Sc2 is the most hyped RTS game of all time.. it has a name and company Behind it.. thats going to attract GAMERS and Competitive play~ the Automine / MBS is not whats going to Make the E-Sports Backbone.. its going to make things alot simpler and boring.. take it from me.. and alot of american top SC WC3 players who i am friends with.. we all agree that Wc3 is too easy. WHY?? becasue the interface practally does everything for them... so why do we want SC2 like that??? not only do i a (great american sc player) hate that but Even THE WC3 Players talk about how dumb MBS/Automine is ~

also If MBS IS WHATS GOING TO ATTRACT SOOOO MANY PLAYERS.... WHY IS CC3 WC3 AOE Ect. RTS games All Smaller and less secessful in the Progaming scene?? I WIll Tell You Why, Sc Is a game you have to work at to be good.. but if automine/mbs is in the game.. the game is going to be a joke~ how exciting would it be to watch a guy with 50 apm do everything a guy with 300 apm would do?? Pritty sad and not impressive~ thats my 2 cents on the matter..

Blizzard i Beg You from a Competitive gamer to the Next.. Please leave MBS/Automine .. out of the game.. or What i would Pre-fer is make it a Game option just like Melee or UMS that way the newbs can use it if they want.. but competitve play still stays hard and Challenging and Imposible to master

THIS IS FROM TL.net Forum but i want to share it here

Also, an interview from an famous ex-starcraft professional gamer about warcraft 3 TFT:

this is old but was an interviewd to Elky that played Wc3 and Sc in Pro-Gaming

Mynock: So not even TFT helps the situation then?
ElkY: The main reason that makes War3 bad for progaming is that, even if the game is too simple by a progamerýs point of view (not many build orders, not many units, not many possibilities, etcý) it's really too complicated to observe for somebody who doesnýt know the game, like 40 year old people. With items, heroes, 1000s of spells, creeps... They donýt understand so much about whatýs going on. TFT made the game much better to play, but even harder to watch.
Mynock: Hell, even I don't understand a thing once the anims and fxs start flying around the screen, with the brewmasters spitting and the whirlwinds rolling... A real headache :/.
ElkY: And then thereýs the stupid luck factor. Which is always so important. In a War3 competition nobody in the top20 is really much better than others. Like if you put YellOw and BoxeR with 18 other players, there are high chances of them both being top3. There isn't such a thing in Warcraft 3, which kinda explains the bad results of Koreans in international tournaments. That, and the luck. Where there are 3 Koreans for 32 players, and everybody is almost at the same level, there aren't much chances for a Korean player to win.
Mynock: So this results in random outcomes mostly?
ElkY: Not totally random, but at such a high level I think if the skill-level difference isnýt that high, itýs much random.

Mynock: Maybe that's also part of the gameýs popularity all outside Korea? Ppl hope that they might win anytime?
ElkY: Main reason why I stopped Warcraft 3 is that when I practiced really hard for a StarCraft game, and lost because BoxeR outsmarted me, I ****** up a move or forgot to get siege (this one hopefully doesnýt happen so much), and letýs say I lost $10k because of that, I just have myself to blame and thatýs it. In War3, if I lose $10k just because my opponent got lucky and didnýt play better than me, then it's really irritating.
ElkY: I like to master my own destiny. If I want to win money by getting lucky I'll go to a casino. If I want to have fun, I'll go watch a movie, go to night clubs or play Lineage 2. And if I want to make money in a competitive game that is still fun to play, and where the luck is (depending on maps and other stuff) about 5-10% of the final outcome, I'll play StarCraft.


Do you want a game to play it or a Game that play for you?
easy mode: MBS/auto mining and Autocasting(Shift+Click)ON
hard mode: MBS/auto mining and Autocasting(Shift+Click)OFF
make it an Option On/Off


YES! this is EXACTLY how I feel, being a pretty good SC player myself.

And yes, its long, but imo very very interesting.

This guy played SC2 alot on blizzcon, and he's a good starcraft player, so he kinda knows what he's talking about. (I think he has played wc3 too)

And like he said, yes, allow it for everyone who wants it --- excluding ladder games and tournaments (except fun tourneys). This is how I feel too.

[tremaparagon]

My attention span sadly could not withstand your post :(
I got it mostly, and I agree, just one thing.
What is multiple building selection? It was the only thing I didnt get.
Auto-mine and Auto-build just sound insane.
Maybe they should just Auto-play, so we just watch comp vs. comp lolz
I never really watched a long comp vs. comp 1on1 game, I wonder how it would turn out.
Hopefully not = SC2

[Protogod]

Long story short- Noobs who think that automine or auto-macro will let them show their "real skills" need to stfu.

[SilverCrusader]

I agree, although I will not be participating as much in melee play than in mapping, I agree totally and completely.

[Aqo]

I read it all. I thoughtfully agree. I am and have always been against automation in games, since all automation does is make the game play you instead of you playing the game.

+support.

[DarkMirror]

Very, VERY sad.

http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=45124&p=1&#post45124

[TitanWing]

100% agree with Ahzz's post up there. While I'm not particularly against auto-mine and auto-repair, I hate the other features.

Btw, since Blizz seems to want to go to the battle.net forums for their community feedback, I say all the sites NOT full of dumbshit noobs (like TL, GG and Warboards) flood the forum with some fucking common sense...

[Protogod]

Very, VERY sad.

http://www.battle.net/forums/thread.aspx?fn=sc2-general&t=45124&p=1&#post45124

http://www.prodigy1.com/photos/albums/userpics/10003/image01010.jpg

[SilverCrusader]

+ Rep for proto.
Yeah, those people were gay and didn't have a clue what they were talking about, all I heard about was WC3 TFT stuff.
luckily a few people stepped in and told them they were complete idiots.

[Kellanved]

MBS would actually become a hassle for the zerg. If we have 3 bases, and say 4-6 hatches that we make as one group, we'd get confused between sending newly recruited troops, and setting drones to automine. From this, I want MBS off for a different reason than you guys: that it would give terran and protoss players an advantage over me.

What do you guys think about selecting 16 units? I personally favour 16 unit select.

[TitanWing]

I'm fine with 16 units.

People that rant about something like that are just idiots. It's 18+ that I draw the line at. SC's limit of 12 was a little too low.

[Protogod]

If its infinite select (or effectively more than necessary select) that is what will bother me. I see no problem with upwards of 20 unit selection, but when you can select your whole army in 1 click it becomes auto-play.

[SilverCrusader]

I like the infinite select, but hotkeying was not fun AT ALL.
As for MBS, Z have an advantage there in SC 1, because you can just ctrl click all of the larva xD

[GroG]

I actually, again, disagree with Ahzz's post. I also consider myself a fairly good SC player here at the forums, and a fairly good War3 player as well.

I do have 1 question though - why can't people say what they want or what they don't want without dissing some other game like how they diss WC3 all the time? I just don't get it. Actually, it's kind of sad to me how they do it, saying it requires less skill and all that, it's pretty obvious they haven't played it enough to actually understand it at all. Elky's comments about how old people like 40 years old can't even watch it and understand what's going on? The spells and effects made it confusing? Seriously, give me a break. Hell, my parents couldn't understand any of the games I played except for Mario and Rogue Squadron.

Honestly, I like both games, and other games as well. I'm pretty flexible with how control is done - I liked macro in SC (single building selection only), I also liked macro in WC3 (multiple building selection). I liked SC/WC3 unit selection (single unit/group of 12 unit selection), I also liked DoW's unit selection (squad selection). I even like Myth 2 (no economy) and Sim City (no battling)!

I also think posts like this:
Long story short- Noobs who think that automine or auto-macro will let them show their "real skills" need to stfu.
should not be happening here as it offensive to people for actually having their own opinion. I think automine is an OK feature. Again, other than building something, defending itself, or scouting, what else is an SCV going to do? 99% of the time it's going to mine. A general wouldn't need to order an SCV to mine during battle. It's tedious.

Finally, I'm not sure if you've guys noticed, but almost every unit being created has special abilities requiring micro. Whereas in SC1 a lot of units didn't have abilities, I think I've only seen like 1 or 2 that don't in SC2. This will hugely effect how much time you spend at your base and how much "downtime" you have to macro.

I have no problem with people saying what they like or what they don't, but all this crap about how superior SC is and how people are noobs for giving their opinion otherwise in another forum is bullshit.

A small point: Even if I can select my entire army in 1 click, it will still travel in a group and could easily get raped by AoE, a chokepoint, or a flank. I would still need to group and use my units effectively so as not to waste their potential to flank or use abilities. Would I still group my harassers such as Reapers with my Siege tanks and Marines?

[pytum]

As for MBS, Z have an advantage there in SC 1, because you can just ctrl click all of the larva xD well, IMO, the zerg always had advantage, because you can ctrl select larvas.

Well, since the gameplay of starcraft is focused to fight with large armys, i agree with the 24 unit selection, i expected 16 o 20, but since i did a little bit of basic mathematics while seeing the first gp video, i realized about the 24 units selection(and karune batches of course:P)

about MBS, it helps in the matter of producing units, and it reduces the time that we spend producing units, and i dont think that it will cut "skill" in players, since the limit of the MBS will be the amount of resourses that we have, and the quantity of units that we want

[ChimTheGrim21]

first things first: SilverCrusader, what does Akaru mean (the hiragana characters in your sig.)? [I study Jap.]

2nd: I would have to play the game myself to truely know if this guy is full of shit or not.

[vIsitor]

Frankly, I don't think that automating such secondary tasks, such as mining, or the ability to select multiple buildings will really change much. The focus of RTS games is not necessarily the number of action taken in a given time, but the quality of the said actions taken. And while automation will increase the number of actions, it still falls to the player to choose other actions intelligently; such as what to build, or managing combat, which is ultimately where the game gets fun (not baby-sitting your workers).

And it is not as if players haven't found workarounds to such limitations in the past; often such players rely heavily on unit hot-keys and and high reaction times. However, the ability the ability to perform sixty-on-upwards actions per minute, although impressive, is often less connected to skill (although it requires some to a degree), and more oriented towards superior hardware (better computer & mouse, etc.). And furthermore, the ability to take action is largely eclipsed by the choice of how that action is taken (e.g. lockdown-ing a squadron of Wraiths is far less impressive if you do so at the expense of the option to do the same to the advancing fleet of Battlecruisers, and so on).

And besides, it is not as if these things give an unfair advantage to any one group of players, as they are given to the entire demographic universally and unilaterally. And the player with superior playing skills will, almost invariably, succeed against an inferior opponent. Much as a player who micros effectively will trump a force that his opponent ordered to attack-move, the seasoned veteran will triumph against an adversary who uses automation as a crutch; an experienced player might even be able to use such automation more effectively. There is no 'skill' lost here. The player is only relieved of the need to make a decision repeatedly, by requiring them to make it only once, allowing greater emphasis as to exactly what the decision is to is made. As I said before, quality trumps quantity.

[Aqo]

GroG and vIsitor - you two miss the fact that having to manually do things such as telling workers to mine is not at all an issue of quantity, it's about the quality of how much you watch over your base. A good player will always have his entire field of vision by his sight (for various reasons) and thus he'll be able to perform those automatic functions himself easily, while a player whose ability at multitasking is poor will not pay attention to many of the things under his control such as his bases. The addition of automation removes one of the penalties for being a worst player - what's the result? good players still beat worst players, but their victories are unnecessarily prolonged and not as impressive due to having won the game from the moment it started and still having had to drag it all the way to remove some pest cannonfodders that the enemy got to horde automatically.

[Ahzz]

As for MBS, Z have an advantage there in SC 1, because you can just ctrl click all of the larva xD

... are you stupid :)? the thing is, that you NO LONGER can use the same group when the larvas are grouped and morphed to something, after that you lose the group for it (well you can still control the units, but you wont receive the same shit for next group of larvas, therefore you'd have to do this every 10-20 seconds which definately is not good.) In other words, you ph41l

Well, since the gameplay of starcraft is focused to fight with large armys, i agree with the 24 unit selection, i expected 16 o 20, but since i did a little bit of basic mathematics while seeing the first gp video, i realized about the 24 units selection(and karune batches of course)

it will be unlimited. I dunno if this guy in my quote explained it, but I definately have before, with all the details. (why it sucks I mean. I agree you can make larger groups, for example even 20, but definately not unlimited imo)

2nd: I would have to play the game myself to truely know if this guy is full of shit or not.

I'd say he isn't. He has played it alot, almost as much as possible in blizzcon. He has also played starcraft quite a bit to say the least, and I believe he has played wc3 too.

However, the ability the ability to perform sixty-on-upwards actions per minute, although impressive
you have not played SC on high level, therefore you wouldnt know, but there doesnt exist a single very good player who has a smaller average apm than 140, atleast not nowadays. Starcraft pros have 250+ apm in general.


also, many of you have hardly tried to play starcraft comptetitively/on a higher level, so of course you want alot of automation. In fact, I would too, if I didnt understand how stupid it is through starcraft. It's true that there are a few starcraft players (who have played it on a higher level) that want it, but I believe that goes down to the much smaller minority.


EDIT:

Oh, the guy has something more to say, and again, I agree with everything. This also brings down all the shit about "APM SHOULDNT EQUAL SKILL" This is so good of an answer, that it must be added. its simply a must. I hope some of this info would be even stickied.

Anyways, my main concern is that automation will shorten the gap between skilled players and beginners. Now, I'm SC player and I enjoy watching pro-gaming. I think that the main difference in our opinions comes from this. We who appreciate pro-gaming/competitive gaming do not want automation because we know that it takes time and effort to be at that level, and that obviously, one should be rewarded of their efforts. On the other hand, those who just play for fun once in a while want automation because of their lack in skill (calm down, being less skilled in SC does not make you any less of a person ;)) I admit that I too, have lost many games because my clicking was slower than my opponents'. But you know what? It's part of the game. I try my best to improve my APM (which is does not only reflect faster clicking, but your ability to multitask - I'll explain shortly) so that I can beat him next time. If practicing is not fun for you, if it's annoying and you're too lazy to practice, then I'm sorry but you'll just have to continue losing then. Don't try to bring everyone down with you by "noobifying" the game. I'll explain more in detail.

As stated above, APM is much more than just clicking fast. It reflects a player's micro/macro skills, and even his strategy (that's right) although it is not of course a direct indication. Let's use an FPS game as an example. No, FPS's are not RTS's, but the two are essencially the same in that they are both types of games meant to "entertain". Smart-casting, automining, and MBS in an RTS is like auto-lock-on-target in an FPS. Basically, the computer does some of the work for you. It doesn't matter how much skilled players have practiced to gain their skills, noobs can do just as well. And why not? Games are meant to be "fun", why do a boring this such as aiming? I just like the shooting part! Right??? Uh......NO


and more:

MBS: Do we need this? select all producing building and hotkey them? Starcraft has been plaing for years and nobody cares about this, only some freaking noobs. Even dragndrop production buildings (not hotkeyable ofc) will be better than select & hotkey all. in sc pros can start building in 9 barracks in a second, i can do it in 3 seconds... with mbs everybody can do this in half a second without any skill

What about smartcast:
remember boxer's famous 6 battlecruisers lockdown? or blinding observers with optical flare? this was awesome ... but now this can be done by everyone ... every noob can select 8 or so ghost and shift-click everything ... even toss newbie will be stormin like a pro, what will further differenciate players? using special abilities will be quite easy with smartcast and with hotkeyable MBS it wont be macro neither ... we will have many players at same "skill" level beating each other radomly with automining, smartcast and 2keys MBS macro with building queues, nobody will be top coz there wont be a space to apply specific skill, noobs will be happy, but its fair? it was said it's to encourage newplayers but can i as a newbie expect this advantages? when i m starting playin new game i cant expect i ll top in next week, month or even year ...

has everybody seen terran gameplay vid? how the commentator sniped 3 marines easily in half a second? I dont want to make someone angry but i think he doesnt have "skill" and still he can snipe like pro. Remember Nada's mass irradiating? now it can be done by everyone! just select 12 vessels and shift-click!
this model seems like communism in online gaming... arent you skilled enough? who cares! play like a pro with new features!

Same as autocast-building scarabs and interceptors, carrier is really powerful unit with smal "disadvantage" you have to build interceptors, this will make carrier normal unit. Now you dont have to care if u forgot build scarabs, interceptors because u just cant forgot

^^^^^^^^
YES! It also explained EXACTLY why smartcast does NOT belong to sc2!

[Thedutchjelle]

Smartcasting is something i disagree with.

But i really don't mind the new features at all. Maybe have a max amount of buildings you can select. But the automine is fine with me.


Imo, it seems that the main complaint is that the pro's will be not so pro anymore because new players can do the same stuff now. If they are all that pro, they'll still win. Or are they afraid they won't anymore?
I hope they listen to new player's their wishes as much as they do for the professional ones.

[TitanWing]

The only auto-casting I support is Medic heal and SCV repair.

I gotta give Ahzz +rep for this topic.

[IrishDutchman]

That was a good post you found, Ahzz. I completely agree with his point that automine/MBS should be optional. Let the community decide for itself.

[Ahzz]

the stuff he said has been posted to battle.net and I believe they said that they'd consider it.

[3Vee]

I'm not really seeing too much of a problem with most of the new features. Of course, as a player, I tend to have a trouble with consistent macro, so maybe I'm biased here. But my usual problems are forgetting supply and forgetting completely to build units during a battle. Sure, some of the new abilities make it easier to focus more on micro during a battle, but I don't think it's such a big deal as is being made out. The better players are still better.

My comments:

I seem to have missed this, but what exactly is Automine? I'm assuming it doesn't mean you produce a worker and it automatically starts harvesting, because that would be kind of gay. But if it's just you can rally-point it to a mineral patch or Vespene node w/Refinery (or whatever) and it starts harvesting when it gets there, that removes a major irritation for everybody. Although there I'd like to make sure that the new unit has to mine at the rallied min patch first, so that it's not just set up one rally-point at the beginning of the game and forget about it completely.

MBS I don't understand the problem with. You still need to know that you want 2 High Templar, a Colossus, and three Stalkers, and make sure you select the right number of buildings for each... I'm really not seeing how this helps anyone unfairly except in low-level play where mass (pick a unit) can win the game. Even if you can hotkey buildings or groups of buildings, you're not, usually, going to want to build the same mix for the whole game. Additionally helpful to maintaining competitive level would be to make sure buildings and units still have to share hotkeys - you only get 10 total. At some point, you're still not going to have enough to keep track of everything, and the true skill will show.

Auto-repair is kind of weird: I'm against it mostly on the principle that sometimes I'm not wanting my SCVs to repair automatically because it's a drain when I'm trying to set up a new base, or something.

Smart-cast I really can't make up my mind about. It definitely makes micro simpler, and I feel like it's unnecessary: I rarely get over 100 APM, and I almost never have trouble selecting a single Templar or Ghost or whatever. In fact, with abilities like the Ghost snipe, I feel like smart-cast could lead to huge balance problems.

[ChimTheGrim21]

My almost literal 2 cents...

Auto-mining- As long as it works like in War3, I don't see the problem--at all. I 100% know where I stand on this.

MBS- There should be a median. Somewhere in between what everyone is talking about. Maybe you can only pick 6 buildings at a time max (etc..).

Smart-casting- In my mind.. solution is not to get rid of smart-casting, but to stop giving units like the Ghost redundant abilities. I'm not 100% sure where I stand on this yet.

[GroG]

GroG and vIsitor - you two miss the fact that having to manually do things such as telling workers to mine is not at all an issue of quantity, it's about the quality of how much you watch over your base.

No I didn't. I'm telling you now I've played a large amount of SC and WC3 competitively. I've ladder on PGTour on SC, I've laddered on WC3 as well. I'm not forgetting anything. I'm telling you my honest opinion that it really doesn't matter if automine is incorporated or not. While yes, this adds something new to the game, to me it adds an unimportant skill - the skill to tab between your 2 bases every split second to tell an scv to mine while you are trying to micro your units in battle, complete upgrades, make more units, make more buildings, and make more supply. This needless skill would not be required in a real war, even a war in space in the far flung future. I've said it before, think about it: Would a general need to tell his every one of his SCV's to mine?

I think it's funny how much you guys argue against autocasting yet medics autocast. Why not implement a micro-required healing wave for medics if you are so against autocasting?

[Thedutchjelle]

I think it's funny how much you guys argue against autocasting yet medics autocast. Why not implement a micro-required healing wave for medics if you are so against autocasting?

SC1 'plays the game' for a large portion as well, but they seem to ignore that.

[Protogod]

forgetting supply and forgetting completely to build units during a battle. That is clearly a flaw in your SC ability, and it needs to be reflected in how well you do in the game. Really, all it is is a handicap. If there is a game where you can play with mistakes, not seeing repercussions from any of them, I don't wanna play it.

I seem to have missed this, but what exactly is Automine? I'm assuming it doesn't mean you produce a worker and it automatically starts harvesting, because that would be kind of gay. DING DING DING!

MBS I don't understand the problem with. You still need to know that you want 2 High Templar, a Colossus, and three Stalkers, and make sure you select the right number of buildings for each... I'm really not seeing how this helps anyone unfairly except in low-level play where mass (pick a unit) can win the game. Even if you can hotkey buildings or groups of buildings, you're not, usually, going to want to build the same mix for the whole game. The problem is that, as an example, The Protoss of SC1 could populate their army with zealgoon. If your fighting a battle like that, and you can just hotkey all 12 of your gates, you make your work immensely easy. You hit "1" then press "d" once or twice, and suddenly you've already replaced all the goons you lost, and made another few extras. Additionally helpful to maintaining competitive level would be to make sure buildings and units still have to share hotkeys - you only get 10 total. At some point, you're still not going to have enough to keep track of everything, and the true skill will show. I don't see alot of games where you need to make 11 different types of units at one given time. Especially Since I cant even name 11 different (useful) units for zerg/terran off the top of my head. Especially ones you could tech at once or use in conjunction with each other.

No I didn't. I'm telling you now I've played a large amount of SC and WC3 competitively. I am not impressed. Have you represented your entire nation as the #1 zerg? If not, I am inclined to believe Ahzz and Elky are more of an authority than you. I've ladder on PGTour on SC which was not only a long time ago, but you never actually said what kind of results you had while on the ladder. Would a general need to tell his every one of his SCV's to mine? Does a general specifically micromanage every marine? Every individual foot soldier in real time?

I think it's funny how much you guys argue against autocasting yet medics autocast. Why not implement a micro-required healing wave for medics if you are so against autocasting?
Autocast on 90% of powerful spells makes every noob into Boxer. As I've said, it's a handicap. & I'm sorry if saying skill less people are noobs, but what else would you call them? If you don't have the macro to manage your base, and you don't have the micro to use your spells effectively, you do NOT fucking deserve to win against someone who has half a brain.

SC1 'plays the game' for a large portion as well, but they seem to ignore that.
Lawl! That little bit of gold is going in my quote box.

[ChimTheGrim21]

Just a question...Who are Ahzz and Elky?

I would tend to think if both sides have the same user interface, then a loss is a fair loss. The only way I could see it being a problem is if the UI is more beneficial to a particular race more so than the other races. I don't think it will be as big a problem as you're projecting. We can only know when the beta hits.

[Protogod]

Just a question...Who are Ahzz and Elky? Ahzz is a long time SC professional. He used to be the #1 Zerg representing Finland, and he is .org's resident Masterer. Elky is a Starcraft/WC3 Professional player.

I would tend to think if both sides have the same user interface, then a loss is a fair loss. The only way I could see it being a problem is if the UI is more beneficial to a particular race more so than the other races.

It isnt race vs race, it is noob vs non-idiot that makes the UI a problem. The UI makes things easier, which means skill is less important. If skill is less important, that gives Noobs the advantage. It means competitive play isn't so much about being better than the other player anymore.

It means that those amazing micro storms you see Nal_Ra doing in Pimpest Plays will be as simple as shift+click.

It means that any idiot can just pick up the game and be #1 player in their country.

[Mjolniir]

MBS would make up for a lot of short-comings in SC, such as how my micro skills and eco are about avg but the game wont let the units be produced while im paying attention to the good part of the gam-
<passes out from laughing>
(15 minutes later)
MBS should be axed completely, because shortcomings like this are player shortcomings, and arguments involving above statement should be trashed.

watch a damned ob game if you want to watch "the good stuff"

shield bats should autocast along with medics and scv repair.

this is one noob that likes it like it is, errr SC1 i mean. SC2 needs a lot of UN-dummification.

[3Vee]

That is clearly a flaw in your SC ability, and it needs to be reflected in how well you do in the game. Really, all it is is a handicap. If there is a game where you can play with mistakes, not seeing repercussions from any of them, I don't wanna play it.

Oh, sure. What I'm saying is, I don't see is how some of these changes would remove those repercussions. Although this "automine" definitely would, now that I know.

The problem is that, as an example, The Protoss of SC1 could populate their army with zealgoon. If your fighting a battle like that, and you can just hotkey all 12 of your gates, you make your work immensely easy. You hit "1" then press "d" once or twice, and suddenly you've already replaced all the goons you lost, and made another few extras.

Okay, then here's my problem where I haven't actually played the game yet: I was assuming with MBS that once you select a bunch of gates, then if you hit "d" all the gates would start building a goon. Or whatever the new hotkeys would be. And sure, it would be simpler than currently, and in that way remove some skill. But when it comes to "micro-building", getting exactly what you want, it would just be a pain, if you want a couple zeals or an HT or something in there as well, so you'd have to select the right number of gates, or select them all and de-select before building, or something. And Blizz seems to be trying to make a heavily mixed-unit game, so potentially this isn't a problem. Whereas if it's not only MBS, but "smart-build", that is an issue. And yes, MBS should definitely be capped, same as unit select.

What it comes down to is this: I'm against "auto-" abilities, because they are skill issues definitely. But selection things are just streamlining, imo.

[GroG]

Problem #1 - No offense or anything, but Ahzz isn't a SC professional. He doesn't make a living off the game, when I look up his name in google all I find is nordic league shit from 2005. I have no record that he is #1 in Finland, and even if he is, the guys I used to play with on BF have played in WGC and stuff as well. All of us here are amateur, and that's the real fact.
Problem #2 - Elky isn't / never was a WC3 professional. Stop making stuff up Protogod. He played in a single tournament in ROC before TFT ever came out, and he didn't even get to experience any of the patches to balance the game. His opinion is pretty much squat. It'd be like making generic statements about starcraft from my single success in SC vanilla v1.00.

The UI makes things easier, which means skill is less important. If skill is less important, that gives Noobs the advantage. It means competitive play isn't so much about being better than the other player anymore.

It means that those amazing micro storms you see Nal_Ra doing in Pimpest Plays will be as simple as shift+click.

It means that any idiot can just pick up the game and be #1 player in their country.

Wow, what a giant ball of shit you've just made up. The problem with your statement about psi-storm, is that in the original SC game, psi-storm should have stacked it's damage and it didn't. Second is your definition of "skill". While macro and micro are pieces of skill, anyone who is smart won't let blizzard, the creator of dragoon and goliath AI (and btw, their pathing AI didn't get better in WC3) control their important spells like psi-storm. You do realize that you can turn autocast off on your units, right? Half the time it targets stupid shit anyways until you run out of mana. The good players in WC3 cast the spells - and all the "good" spells weren't autocast anyways.

I think you are blowing this out of proportion. Let's imagine some of the units currently and imagine them with autocast/smartcast. If I'm trying to micro my stalkers and I need to blink, wouldn't I need to do that myself so that I didn't get my units trapped somewhere or blink into an ambush? So it's fair to say that won't be autocast. There could be shift-casting on that spell, but that's really not a huge big deal at all since I can already move-shift click or attack-shift-click.

What about the reapers explosives? If those are autocast, they will go on crazy shit that would be the first available target. You'd probably need to use this yourself to target what you want to target.

What about command centers and it's "defensive mode"? I bet this could be set as autocast. But if you leave it on, there's probably a huge drawback (does it require scv's to use the defensive mode?)

If medics are in this, restore would be another spell I think should be autocast. This spell was almost impossible to use in BW.

Stim could be autocast, but if your rines stim at the start of battle and you get flanked, they basically just lose 1/4 of their hp and immediately get attacked, so it's not worth it.

Ghost's and snipe? Sniping the first available target would mean you didn't get to kill what you want, but your opponent now knows you are there and will take measures against you, as well as wasting your mana on less worthwhile targets.

Well anyways, that's all I got for now.

[3Vee]

Wow, what a giant ball of shit you've just made up. The problem with your statement about psi-storm, is that in the original SC game, psi-storm should have stacked it's damage and it didn't.

Logically/"scientifically", yes, balance wise, hell no. And I'm speaking here as a 'Toss player who loves to storm. Plus, this has crap to do with either smart or auto-casting.

Second is your definition of "skill". While macro and micro are pieces of skill, anyone who is smart won't let blizzard, the creator of dragoon and goliath AI (and btw, their pathing AI didn't get better in WC3) control their important spells like psi-storm. You do realize that you can turn autocast off on your units, right?

In which case you force people to turn the auto-cast off... which seems sort of pointless.

I think you are blowing this out of proportion. Let's imagine some of the units currently and imagine them with autocast/smartcast.

What has people the most upset is automine (for obvious reasons) and MBS, which very well may be an out-of-proportion concern, but it's hard to know until we've played. A lot. Smart-cast has people bitching, but we'd mostly live with it. Auto-cast would be lame most of the time.

But about a couple of your examples:

What about command centers and it's "defensive mode"? I bet this could be set as autocast. But if you leave it on, there's probably a huge drawback (does it require scv's to use the defensive mode?)

I thought the only "defensive mode" was the PF, which is a once and done, no reversion deal. Did I miss something again?

If medics are in this, restore would be another spell I think should be autocast. This spell was almost impossible to use in BW.

...No? Logically then Plague, Parasite, Storm, or comparable damage spells should be auto-cast, and regardless the Medic becomes basically an anti-spell machine. Spellbreaker, almost.

Look, let me explain my dislike of a lot of these changes. Yes, I'm all for a limited MBS and a rally-mine ability (a la WC3, if I remember correctly). Autocast except for heal I dislike, and that only because it's insanely hard to micro. If something like the shield battery/moonwell shows up, that also should be auto-cast, I think, although fairly unimportant. Probably top players would prefer to keep the auto-cast off there, to make sure the right units get the HP back, but that's just theorizing. Repair, or other unit abilities, should not be auto-cast imo, because there are obvious player choices there. There's no reason not to heal your troops; there might be a reason not to repair, let alone bigger abilities like storm, parasite, or whatever.

My theory is that as long as it's just something everyone has always wished they'd be able to do, "auto-whatever" is fine. But when it comes down to choices for strategy, affecting the game, that should be left "as-is", the old "hard" way. Rally-mine makes sense, automine doesn't. Auto-heal makes sense, auto-repair doesn't. To my mind, some limited MBS makes sense, but give too much to the ability and it becomes merely a macro game: who can make more stuff faster, take more expos, etc., because now everybody has time to micro. Sure, some people will still be better at it, but the importance of large supplies of troops, minerals, etc. shift the emphasis too much to bases.

[ChimTheGrim21]

Okay.. so lets define "Auto-mine" and "rally-mine."

Is auto-mine where the workers automatically mine the minerals right out the gate? Is Rally-mine just like warcraft III?

I am a bit confused.

In which case you force people to turn the auto-cast off... which seems sort of pointless.
In Wacraft 3, not all aut0-cast abilities were automatically set to auto-cast. Sometimes you were required to turn it on in order for it to work (Frost armor, Dispel Magic(dryad), etc..).

[SlickR]

I can't agree on anything at this point. I have to say that I've played SC the first months as it came out and I've been playing up till now, well okay now i play it like 1-5 times in a month but i'm real expert at it.
The thing is i have also played lots and lots of other RTS games so i feel like some automation may actually make things not easier but more fast.
Though as i've said i can't really take a stand right now as i haven't played the game. If i set down and play a demo of starcraft 2 right now i have a very clear image of where is at and where its going.
So here is a call for blizzard to make an event in eastern Europe with a playable demo of starcraft 2 when all 3 races are done so we european players can get our hands on this game and tell our point of view.

Furthermore yes there are a lot of noobs in battle.net forums that just bought WC3 to play dota and are now spaming the starcraft 2 forums. Blizzard reps that come across this post tell the devs to not only look at battle.net forums but elswhere also and make sure that only real starcraft players play the beta and not some random noobs that manage to download it faster than the rest. in order to do this add couple of questions about starcraft and match play against hired pros. If that pro has had a hard time winning the match then the user could only then download the beta!

[Ahzz]

I can't agree on anything at this point. I have to say that I've played SC the first months as it came out and I've been playing up till now, well okay now i play it like 1-5 times in a month but i'm real expert at it.

sure you know what color the wraith laser is, but do you know how to play starcraft well? The time you have played has nothing to do with skill. often quite the opposite. I mean, I've 'played' it since it came out too, but I ONLY started improving a few years ago. No offense if you're actually an amazing korean pro or something, but you get what I mean.

Blizzard reps that come across this post tell the devs to not only look at battle.net forums but elswhere also and make sure that only real starcraft players play the beta and not some random noobs that manage to download it faster than the rest. in order to do this add couple of questions about starcraft and match play against hired pros. If that pro has had a hard time winning the match then the user could only then download the beta!

lol... Everyone at blizzcon was given a beta key, which they can use later on to download sc2 beta. There will be over 100 000 guys trying it out, do you seriously think it'd be good if you'd have to use 'hired pros' to test them? and haha. You're so stupid, the hired pros would own the shit outta them 24/7, unless they're wc3 or cnc pro ofc. An SC pro would own them easily. 99% of the time. Bad idea.

As for automation...
More stuff the guy found:

Look What i Found, This is a Post in TL.Net from A TOP CnC3 Player

Nick:Lazerflip
I am one of the "few" you speak of who play RTS competitively in other games, but never played SC. I hop around the shitty noob RTS games that appear in WCG and stuff (Dawn of War, Command & Conquer 3). If you want to know what I think, I think that MBS would ruin Starcraft 2 and automine would ruin SC2. SC as an original formula worked. Command & Conquer 3 (a new RTS that people play) has all of these features that you guys are debating, and even MORE. The game practically plays itself. And I can say that, on a competitive level, the game is TERRIBLE! And where do you stop with the ridiculous noobified features? You add MBS...do you want to be able to queue up more units without paying for them? Do you want to be able to set a barracks to automatically build more marines for you as you get the money so you don't have to constantly do it? Do you want your Command Center to automatically produce workers for you if you right click the worker icon? I have to ask, where does it stop? Sure, you can keep adding ridiculous features in hopes of making the noobs happier, but I can tell you a few things with CERTAINTY; doing these things makes the game WORSE and not better because as the "easy buttons" pile up, eventually there is just nothing to do and there you sit looking at the screen while your units get built. It sucks and this is not what you want for SC2. Draw a hard line, let a macro/micro game be just what it is, and hope people like it. Hell, they liked the first one, why wouldn't they? And before you start adopting features from Command & Conquer 3 (it's no coincidence that Dustin Browder worked on C&C3 before, which had a similar MBS system and is a horrendous game) you should PLAY these games that you are taking "features" from. I can PROMISE you that if you play Command & Conquer 3, you will not want these features anymore. It's not what you think it is, it ruins the game, please don't include it. This coming from a non-SC player who would actually benefit (on a competitive/professional level) from the inclusion of such features.


P.S. In Command & Conquer 3 there is a button that selects every military unit you control in the entire game. You really do not want this.

yeah. This is an CnC3 pro. And he, if any, knows about automation.

It's also amazing how many gosu SC players went to wcg and managed to like, just about win the shit while only playing a few games of it. (learning what unit does what).

[Aqo]

tsk~

As someone who've played both Starcraft and C&C3, I can testify that in Starcraft I had to practice and play for hours every day for months to just get to a decent level, and as soon as I stopped playing my ability dropped rapidly down to something poor, while at the same time it took me a week to master C&C3 and reach the top 500 players on it, arguably the top 10 if I played C&C3 often seeing as I can beat players from top 50 without any effort.

` 3000th post `

[anderoo]

Personally I think that automine is a really really stupid idea. The whole concept of making units easier to micromanage is against what blizzard wants in SC2: "we still want the focus of gameplay to be on micro versus macro". As for the MBS, I think they should but certain restrictions on it. Buildings that create units should still be selected one at a time, however defensive structures should be able to be multiple selected. I think we all know how frustrating it is when you have a pile of turrets shooting into a cloud of interceptors...

`14th Post` :P
Congrats on 3000:)

[Ahzz]

As someone who've played both Starcraft and C&C3, I can testify that in Starcraft I had to practice and play for hours every day for months to just get to a decent level, and as soon as I stopped playing my ability dropped rapidly down to something poor, while at the same time it took me a week to master C&C3 and reach the top 500 players on it, arguably the top 10 if I played C&C3 often seeing as I can beat players from top 50 without any effort.


Indeed. You know, when cs:source first came out, and it was used in wcg, people played it alot. But it was full of these "cool" things that make it easier. When CS took 4 years to master, you could master source in 6 months. Guess what, most of source players moved back to 1.6 and now its played more than source.

It's not only if its 'good' or balanced, its also about challenge.

[SilverCrusader]

Those people that like everything done for them fail at life, because they can't get off their lazy ass and do stuff themselves. If all you want to do is watch units kill themselves, there is a very easy way to continuously spawn units and send them at each other to watch them die, kthnx.
Practicing something is pointless if there isn't a goal to reach.

[Aqo]

SlickR, calling someone a bitch and expecting him to apologize for calling you stupid only proves that you are. Ahzz knows SC better than you, by far more than you can imagine, so don't go around talking like you know anything because it's certain others know better than you.

[SgtHK]

Indeed. You know, when cs:source first came out, and it was used in wcg, people played it alot. But it was full of these "cool" things that make it easier. When CS took 4 years to master, you could master source in 6 months. Guess what, most of source players moved back to 1.6 and now its played more than source.

It's not only if its 'good' or balanced, its also about challenge.

I played Counter-Strike the moment it came out back in 2000 (or was it 2001?). It's one of the fastest and most brutal FPS game out there, kinda like StarCraft in the RTS world. And, believe me, no noob can match the reaction time of a skilled CS player. Just watching a pro looking through the sights of a one-shot rifle, senses an enemy behind him, turning 180-degrees in just .05 secs, and scoring a direct hit is simply amazing. The only way you can achieve this level of skill is constant practice and nothing else.

But in CS:Source, everything was a bit easier. Aside from the trememdous graphical requirements you needed, it was also slower than the original CS and less fun because even complete noobs were now able to knife professionals straight-on! Damn!

This is what's happening in the realm of SC2 right now. All these additional gameplay changes somehow take out the challenge by making the game easier to play.

[Ahzz]

Second those blizzcon beta keys may turn out to be for WOW expansion ones.

no. I know several people who went to blizzcon, and they were given SC2 BETA KEYS. (possibly wow exp too)

If you are org.staff that doesen't mean you can start insulting people. I want you to apologize for calling me stupid.
okay sorry for calling you stupid. I reacted too strongly. But seriously speaking, the idea you came up with has no chance to work.

Third US is not the fucking world, why only people from US to play the beta, ok mauby like 20-30 people from the world that somehow got to blizzcon but still...
no. Anyone who went there got it, there are many europeans and koreans etc too. Those guys will get the beta FOR SURE, the rest we dont know yet of. maybe they will, maybe they wont

Forth it was just an expresion to tell my worry about who gets to play the beta, and not an actual suggestion to hire 1 pro on every 1 who wants to download the beta!
They will get enough beta testers. Its damned sure not everyone will get to try it, that might include you, and might include me.

[3dshocker]

The only reason I'm against MBS is it takes away the uniqueness the zerg have. I'd say if they plan to implement MBS it should be like a command that gets propagated through all the buildings - one by one. With a built in delay of 5-7 seconds from building to building.

Point is you'd be able to send a command to all your barracks at once to build a marine but if you do, there is a delay before each building starts pumping marines. The first building instantly, the second five seconds later and the third one 10 seconds later and so on.

The idea is, the more buildings you select, the longer the average delay will get. If you build one by one from each building, you will get the instant troop training you want.

as for autocasting, the only thing I'm in favor of is medic healing, zerg burrow when unable to return fire...and possibly ghost sniping....I really want to march into zerg base with sniper army ^_^...it'd be a bit overpowered then wouldn't it =/

[SilverCrusader]

medic healing
already automatic.

zerg burrow
That will make lurker micro too easy.

[ChimTheGrim21]

The only reason I'm against MBS is it takes away the uniqueness the zerg have. I'd say if they plan to implement MBS it should be like a command that gets propagated through all the buildings - one by one. With a built in delay of 5-7 seconds from building to building.

Point is you'd be able to send a command to all your barracks at once to build a marine but if you do, there is a delay before each building starts pumping marines. The first building instantly, the second five seconds later and the third one 10 seconds later and so on.

The idea is, the more buildings you select, the longer the average delay will get. If you build one by one from each building, you will get the instant troop training you want.

as for autocasting, the only thing I'm in favor of is medic healing, zerg burrow when unable to return fire...and possibly ghost sniping....I really want to march into zerg base with sniper army ^_^...it'd be a bit overpowered then wouldn't it =/

I'm not sure what to think about this idea. I pretty much think it would render MBS useless (leaving the noobs to an even more unfair advantage because they wouldn't realize their units are being made extra slow).

Maybe if the delay was only a 1-time delay each time you clicked multiple buildings, otherwise I would say don't even implement MBS if thats what would happen.

[Protogod]

thats basically a fake compensation for actual macro....

Try actually making them click it ant they will know exactly how long it is between each build. Moreover it will reflect their multitasking skillz.

[3dshocker]

I was thinking along the lines of penalties for ease of use.

[SlickR]

In the end i believe we all look for something in the middle. We love starcraft as it was yet we want new stuff as new tactics and strategies. So in this point just copying starcraft will not work, lets face it the game is 9 years old but then again we don't want units playing automaticly for us.

In this regard i would like the path-finding to be perfect but keep the movement speed differences that were in sc. For example zealots instead of circling to catch a zergling will go to a direct path to it but have slower movement speed, so auto-attacking the zergling still won't work.
Another thing is the multiple building selection. We don't want to take out macro but yet we want these things done faster. In this regard there should be a limit as to how many buildings you can select, possibly 2 at most.
Auto-cast it pretty much useless for all units except the medic, i see it as a disadvantage rather than advantage and about smart-cast i don't know how this will actually work and if'll exist at all in sc2 so it remains to be seen.

Furthermore porting sc into 3d with same gameplay is not my idea of making a sequel, i don't want to have the same tactics and strategies in sc2 that i played in sc1. We need new content and figure out new tactics and strategies. Blizzard want to listen fans but then again they are a business and need to make the game accessible to wide audience.

From this I believe we'll see the single player campaign feature all these components that may make the game easier but for multiplayer they will stick to the core gameplay with some of these features but all will have minimal impact on gameplay. It may be so that the auto-mine may be removed from multiplayer games.

So yeah i'm somewhere in the middle of the sides.

[deadkat]

Some people are talking about MBS like it's freaking autobuild.

You can click a gateway (you can also use hotkeys of course), build 5 zealots, click another, build 5 zealots. Or you can click on a group of two gateways and build 5 zealots each.

You really only save a few extra milliseconds with MBS.

When they finish, you still have to click some more to build more.

And I'm sure Blizzard will give you a choice between MBS/no MBS.

[Protogod]

You really only save a few extra milliseconds with MBS.
but for noobs it is several seconds, which is invaluable. Noobs are saving more time than pros, who DO only save milliseconds, which is why this is such an unfair equalizer in skill. It means noobs can contend with pros.

When they finish, you still have to click some more to build more.

which will mean this effect is cumulative, so these seconds here and there will add up, making it even mroe important.
And I'm sure Blizzard will give you a choice between MBS/no MBS.

what's your source? woman's intuition?

[TitanWing]

And I'm sure Blizzard will give you a choice between MBS/no MBS.
I stopped reading your post after that...later to find out there wasn't anything past it. :P

Anyways, as Proto pointed out, you fail to realize how much of a difference MBS will affect people based on skill level. It gives even the dumbest noob the same macro potential as a progamer. This happens to be a bad thing.

[Gunmonk]

This guy played SC2 alot on blizzcon, and he's a good starcraft player, so he kinda knows what he's talking about. (I think he has played wc3 too)

Wait people actually play warcraft three?


I dont know about auto mining it nice because it gives less multitasking and more attention to battles

[Protogod]

I dont know about auto mining it nice because it gives less multitasking

Because everyone knows you should never have to multitask in a good RTS game.
and more attention to battles
Mjolniir put it best when he said

watch a damned ob game if you want to watch "the good stuff"

[ChimTheGrim21]

Wait people actually play warcraft three?


I dont know about auto mining it nice because it gives less multitasking and more attention to battles

It sold over 7 million copies. Stop being an ass about WC3. I know it isn't as balanced as SC, but its still one of the best RTS games out.

[deadkat]

what's your source? woman's intuition?

Yes?

I dont know about auto mining it nice because it gives less multitasking

Isn't that the point of real-time strategy though? The real-time part? Doing things at once instead of one at a time?

[SilverCrusader]

Maybe lets put this into terms you can understand:
MBS = a 400 Meter track
No MBS = hilly, wooded, and muddy course

Sure the track is nicer, faster, and easier to run on. However, when it comes down to it, the hilly, wooded, and muddy area is a hell of a lot more fun.

[TitanWing]

Except for the mud, that could get annoying. :P

[SilverCrusader]

somewhat, but it is fun to run through because sometimes people fall down in it and you can laugh at them.

[Ahzz]

well silver, your example is excellent, except that imo it would be MBS AND the other 'new' automation, but yes, I agree with it. In the end you had much more fun doing it and enjoying it than the simple 400 meter track.