Grade Inflation

[Morkeliph]

I recently got into an argument with a student in my biology course that was whining about there not being enough extra credit. The professor is already offering extra credit up to 3% of you final grade for mere attendance and class participation. I argue that this is plenty, and that begging for more reflects one's own unwillingness to work for a grade.

What do you guys think about extra credit in general? I think that it is grade inflation, which devalues your college degree. Thoughts?

[Anoiktos]

I think that extra credit, even up to an amount others might consider absurd (say, 50%), is acceptable, with three exceptions: First, that the student in question do well on the final exam, two, that the extra credit in question is more difficult and possibly takes advantage of its extracurricular nature, and three, that it teaches the student the principles they might be missing in the class.

Thus, extra credit involving a single worksheet that gives 1% of your total grade is stupid and should be considered grade inflation, but an assignment giving 1% of a grade that involves hours of hands-on research and a well-written essay with home-baked conclusions about it is more acceptable. It is key always to remember that extra credit is extra, and is nevertheless supposed to aid the student in question with understanding the subject they're taking.

Basically, one's grade should reflect how well one knows the subject and how well one can organize oneself; as school is a preparation for the 'real world', if one cannot organize oneself well enough to acquire a good grade, the effort used to buck that grade up must be commensurate with the problems usually involved with delayed deadlines, etc. in real-world circumstances.

If one does not know/can not learn the subject of the class, one should not pass it.

[GroG]

What if a class is a requirement for a degree, yet is not a class clearly centered around your major. Take for example Statistics. I had to pass statistics class in order to declare myself an MIS (information systems) major.

But, what if I hadn't passed that course? There was extra credit in it, and it sure did help me a lot.

I've also had coworkers and even my boss at my internship tell me you only really use about 10% of what you learned in college, the rest is all on the job training. So, while I do agree that it's important to learn while in school, it's not dire.

My final point I'm going to make is that what you learn from the class isn't necessarily a grade. I'm pretty bad at test taking - but I'm pretty good at projects. I'm not sure about your university, but mine is pretty much standardized bubblesheets for tests. I don't do very well on those, but I make up my grade on homeworks, attendance, projects, and extra credit. Does that mean that someone who does well on tests is smarter than me in the subject? I guess that's the real issue.

[Anoiktos]

My final point I'm going to make is that what you learn from the class isn't necessarily a grade.
Absolutely. This is one of the huge problems with the No Child Left Behind act - it shows a marked ignorance as to the difference between learning and testing. And aye - I've also heard you learn little in college that you end up using later on, but what you really learn is how to learn a skill, or improvise it, so that if you've taken a class in X, it's easier to learn it later on after you've forgotten it.

[hammocksleeper]

I have never heard of extra credit in a legitimate class here at college. Our grades are already inflated enough. Also, absent any special circumstances like pledging a fraternity, if you are having trouble passing a class, you should really reevaluate where you are presently.

In general I am of the opinion that grades are an OK signal of your work ethic, but are really taken too seriously as selection criteria for interviews, admissions, etc. I think the college admissions process is pretty well-rounded especially if your university requires multiple essays, transcript, SATs and an interview. But I can't say the same for major recruiting efforts from corporations that visit college campuses.

[ScottieIWU]

I have never heard of extra credit in a legitimate class here at college. Our grades are already inflated enough. Also, absent any special circumstances like pledging a fraternity, if you are having trouble passing a class, you should really reevaluate where you are presently.I've seen classes with EC that's equal to like, a small quiz or extra HW assignment, basically helping to bring that up. Usually that entails something like seeing a related lecture and then writing up a fairly lengthy response to it. Of course, those were all 100 level classes.

Most classes require you to attend stuff like that anyway.

And as far as the special circumstances, if you're not doing as well as you could because of your fraternity, you need to reevaluate your priorities, as well as the fraternity's. You're at college for school, it comes first.

I'm not doing as well as I could be (just busy, don't care for some of my gen eds, etc), but you don't see me clamoring for EC, I'm basically working on getting my ass in gear and not sucking. EC is for HS, leave it there.

[GenocideAlive]

I think at any point someone is passing out extra credit, they should take a few things into consideration.

First, is the student struggling because of participation? If so, no extra credit should be awarded without extenuating circumstances (death, clinical depression, etc.). In the case of those too lazy or unmotivated to show up to class, a weekend's worth of work shouldn't make up for a semester of neglected studies. If you don't show up to work, you're not going to get paid--it's a lesson that everyone needs.

Second, is this extra credit to make up for core material? In every class, there is "fluff" material, or material that isn't quite crucial to the concept of the class but still presented for enrichment. Also present is material that needs to be learned and understood in order for a higher understanding of later concepts ("pyramid" concept). If someone fails basic course material, they should not be permitted to perform extra credit on "fluff" to boost their grade for a lack of understanding. You shouldn't be able to do a big project in C++ for credit if you're failing Software Engineering, IMO.

Third, is this student dedicated or committed to the material? If you have a "swing" student who is taking German as an elective to fill credit hours for his CS degree, you should probably let him do whatever extra credit he wants. Keep his interest, enrich him. Obviously he isn't going to be a translator for the UN, so he doesn't quite need to be ground on the particulars. However, if it's a German major, extra credit becomes a little silly. If this is supposed to be a career choice, then you need to familiarize yourself with the material to an acceptable extent. I am not going to watch a clown exit my classroom and go into another forum (classroom, job, etc.) and embarrass me with their ignorance.

Finally, the course level is important. Once you get to a Master's degree, you really have to question if you think that a student of this caliber should be awarded credit for a class that he/she is unable to perform acceptably. In those scenarios, you are not just releasing some dumbass to his own devices, you're putting a pretty big stamp of approval that will come back to haunt you. In contrast, if you're in freshman biology with a bunch of clowns that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground, if you find one that's willing to work to get a better grade, you have a good opportunity as a teacher to teach them the (behavioral?) lesson that if you work, you'll get what you want. It's always good to keep a couple of extra-credit project-options available so that it minimizes your effort in grading (you know what to expect) and you're fully aware of the effort level each requires.

I'd also take it a step further and tell the students that there are only three grade levels. "A", "C", and "F". So if Timmy didn't lift a finger and turned in a halfassed report, fuck him. Give him an "F", give him no credit, and tell him he screwed off his chance. If Sally tries but doesn't really put in a ton of effort, well I'm not spending all night grading this for your benefit: "C". An "A" paper will sell itself, I'd tell them. I'd see you put in effort, time, and consideration. It doesn't have to be anything near perfect, just that you're not trying to play me for a sucker to cheese a better grade.

[ScottieIWU]

Third, is this student dedicated or committed to the material? If you have a "swing" student who is taking German as an elective to fill credit hours for his CS degree, you should probably let him do whatever extra credit he wants. Keep his interest, enrich him. Obviously he isn't going to be a translator for the UN, so he doesn't quite need to be ground on the particulars. However, if it's a German major, extra credit becomes a little silly. If this is supposed to be a career choice, then you need to familiarize yourself with the material to an acceptable extent. I am not going to watch a clown exit my classroom and go into another forum (classroom, job, etc.) and embarrass me with their ignorance.An interesting point, definitely worthy of further comment. Unfortunately my time is short as I work soon, but I definitely think the concept is something that should be more fully considered.

[GroG]

EC is for HS, leave it there.

That's a pretty bold statement. It actually gets hard for "not sucking" when you are a senior graduating in the spring, working 24 hrs at an internship, applying to jobs and interviewing, and looking at other states to move to for a job and live - house? apartment?

I have 4 seperate project groups right now in my 5 classes that all want to meet at different times. I commute 45 minutes to school, and I'm only on campus 2 days a week, Tues and Thurs. It's pretty hard to exert 100% of my attention on school. I think in the last month I've actually had time to myself to play video games or something for like a grand total of 3 hours.

Do some of my teachers offer EC? They sure do. One offered extra credit to us for going to the career fair wearing a suit and bringing our resume. Another one gave us extra credit for participating in Case Studies. I think these are great opportunities not only to get a better grade, but to better yourself professionally.

I basically got my internship through my extra credit last year.

Anyways, I guess you can have your opinion, but I have the gut feeling you are in your first year of school where you think you are a genius and can make your grade without attending class and just studying out of the book for 8 hours straight before the test. Good luck.

[ScottieIWU]

Anyways, I guess you can have your opinion, but I have the gut feeling you are in your first year of school where you think you are a genius and can make your grade without attending class and just studying out of the book for 8 hours straight before the test. Good luck.I have the gut feeling I'm a junior who has dealt with apparently some of the world's most unforgiving professors. I have yet to be offered any serious extra credit, and if it were offered I'd be dumb not to take advantage of it. That doesn't mean, though, that I can't disagree with handing it out.

You talk about how busy you are, yet it seems odd that you have enough time to do extra credit? I don't mean to attack your time management, or your priorities, but it just seems like extra credit like attending a job fair can get in the way of the credited work, or studying for tests that are credited. Moreover, I'm in a similar situation with time. I spend most of my time in class, and when I'm not in class I'm at my job, where I am a student manager often working 20-25 hrs a week. I'm in that building at least three, usually four of the five weekdays and one day a weekend. It's almost always a closing shift, which means I'm not back in my room until 11 and able to do homework. Oh and on top of that, I'm a member of a fraternity, and hold the position of Treasurer and Alumni Relations chair. What that means is I'm also very often spending my time (free time that I don't have) doing work with the budget, the bank account, or being the one that is basically planning the 50th Anniversary homecoming my Chapter has this year.

Honestly, with how busy I am, I'd have a hard time justifying showing up at something that may take anywhere from one to three hours of my time just to get extra credit and take time away from homework and studying.

Moreover, most things that you described as EC in my situations are required work. In one of my psych classes, being a participant in a psychological study was required as part of your grade. The reasoning is that if you're serious about being a psych major, you're doing it anyway. And if you're not serious about being a psych major, it shows you more about the programs, and also provides free participants.

In terms of my major (English literature), going to plays or poetry readings or various other activities related to the major are, once again, required, because it's assumed that IF you intend to be an English major, you're doing those things anyway. There is the argument that it's bettering yourself professionally, but I'd be more worried about the English student who doesn't attend literature conferences than the one who'd do it to help in terms of EC.

Oh, BTW thx for generalizing about me and then martyring yourself. Kthxbai.

[Prozerran]

Hey guys. I know this is kind of, well, either very obvious or very trite and naive, but has anyone ever considered the pass/fail approach to ALL education? Hey, Jimmy, I'm sorry, you've fucked around in this course. I'm not passing you. You have to take it again and actually learn.

Oh, John, you don't have all your homework turned in? Can you tell me what *insert specific, important, but general and relevant information from the course* is and why it is important? You can? O.k., you're free to move ahead with your studies. Thanks for playing.

I'm sorry, but the grading system in American schools is a fucking joke. If anyone thinks otherwise, please feel free to voice your reasons for why you think it's at the very least, adequate or at the most, superb. I'd love to hear your reasons for why.

[GenocideAlive]

"American schools" needs serious definition before you achieve any validity for your rant, Proz.

If you're trying to just rip on America in general...:tdown:

[Prozerran]

"American schools" needs serious definition before you achieve any validity for your rant, Proz.

If you're trying to just rip on America in general...:tdown:

Ok, how about American Public Schools? Private schools need not apply.

The problem is that students are only given information to regurgitate, not information that really helps them think for themselves. I've made this rant before, but really, it applies to grading as well.

Who said quantifying the grading system was the best approach? From my point of view, quantifying someone's understanding is about as applicable as finding a needle in a haystack, as in, it does nothing to really qualify a student's understanding. Sure, a kid can do well on their homework and get a good grade, but with the internet, it's not really hard to do well on homework. And in my high school, daily work counted 90% and testing counted 10%. So, if you figured out the system, it was a breeze to get through high school with a 4.0, because most, if not all of your grade depended on your ability to do your homework and get a good grade in the privacy of your own home.

But grading, in general, doesn't qualify a student's understanding in quantifying it, because the student doesn't really need to test well to pass the class. And now with the No Child Left Behind, it's even worse, because now students who are in need of special instruction make school that much easier while simultaneously making it that much more frustrating... dumbing down kids year by year. I know this jumps from topic to topic, but it all centers around this system that quantifies children's understanding rather than relying on educated teachers to qualify it. As surprising as it may seem, teachers used to actually have a little more control of their classroom than they do today. They aren't even allowed to physically remove a child from their classroom or break up fights because of the risk of being sued. But I digress.

The grading system is just a joke to me... when we quantify understanding, where do we find quality in anything? You tell me..

[Oblongato]

Some of education can be easily quantified, some of it is very subjective. To me it's obvious that we need a method for determining who is the best of the best (if we want to work in the direction of a meritocracy, that is) and that's only possible with grade scales - maybe only with standardized testing.

Sure, I acknowledge that many of the most important things one learns are judged more or less subjectively. But in such cases I also see no remedy. Take essays, for example. I personally dislike all of the attempts at objectively scoring an essay that I've seen. At the same time, no two teachers will agree completely on the merits of an essay. Nevertheless, I still think essay-writing skills are an important part of one's intellectual development. I think we will just have to live with the problems that go along with subjective grading.

Pass / fail is a recipe for mediocrity in my opinion. Not everyone learns for the simple joy of his/her own achievement. Some want to stand out from their peers and by eliminating the opportunity to show achievement with grades, you would be robbing these people of their motivation.

I also think private schools should be forbidden, as should home schooling. But that sounds like a thread in itself so I will stop here.

[GroG]

You talk about how busy you are, yet it seems odd that you have enough time to do extra credit? I don't mean to attack your time management, or your priorities, but it just seems like extra credit like attending a job fair can get in the way of the credited work, or studying for tests that are credited.

Yes, but going to the career fair killed 2 birds with 1 stone, it helped me get a job and network with employers, and also helped my grade. Oh, and it got me that nice job I worked at all summer that helped me pay rent and gave me something nice to put on my resume.

Moreover, most things that you described as EC in my situations are required work.

Glad I don't go to your school. Sounds like they don't really care about working adults and people who commute to campus.

Oh, BTW thx for generalizing about me and then martyring yourself. Kthxbai.

Martyr myself? You realize I said what I said in response to this:
EC, I'm basically working on getting my ass in gear and not sucking. EC is for HS, leave it there.
I'd like for you to explain to me how you go about "not sucking" in a class that you are already studying, trying hard in, and still having a tough time passing. I realize that I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I do try to "not suck". Apparently I don't have some sort of skill that you have, or you are taking much easier classes than I am.

[ScottieIWU]

Yes, but going to the career fair killed 2 birds with 1 stone, it helped me get a job and network with employers, and also helped my grade. Oh, and it got me that nice job I worked at all summer that helped me pay rent and gave me something nice to put on my resume.I'm glad. (No, really.) Like I said, if I got extra credit for something I'd be doing anyway, I'd definitely take it (not necessarily agree with it) because sometimes you have to "play the game."

Glad I don't go to your school. Sounds like they don't really care about working adults and people who commute to campus.Well considering the lack of graduate students and the fact that the only commuters tend to be from within the 10 mile radius that the town spreads it really isn't unreasonable.

I'd like for you to explain to me how you go about "not sucking" in a class that you are already studying, trying hard in, and still having a tough time passing. I realize that I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but I do try to "not suck". Apparently I don't have some sort of skill that you have, or you are taking much easier classes than I am.I believe before that, I said:

I'm not doing as well as I could be (just busy, don't care for some of my gen eds, etc)Meaning that I'm not necessarily putting forth the effort I should be in order to achieve what I'd like to in these classes. Getting my ass in gear, in this situation, means making sure I'm spending more time than I am currently to try to improve my grade.

And there are plenty of situations where you may not necessarily be getting an A+ in a class because it's not in your preferred subject area, etc. There are other ways, besides studying, to help that. Meeting with professors, tutors, TAs, etc, can help.

I don't have a secret key, I just accept that some classes outside of my subject area are not going to see much more than a low B or C from me simply because I am not very strong in those areas. It's a fact that I, personally, have slowly managed to accept.

Edit: I forgot. I really agree with what GA said earlier about giving EC to students who are outside of a major. I definitely think that in my math class it would benefit everyone to give a little EC to students who are not math or CS majors (it's required for CS) to not penalize them for trying to simply broaden their horizons.

However, EC in major area is something I am wholly opposed to. I don't want some English major in one of my classes to get an A in a writing course because he/she managed to do a little extra credit but basically slacked or did not achieve the rest of the semester. I doubt you want an accountant who only passed one of his core classes because he got enough extra credit to get by doing your taxes.

I'm not against achievement, just for professionalism.

[SolidSamurai]

Damn, grade inflation exists? I've never even thought about that kinda thing! :P

But yah, I think people should work for their grades, even though a lot of them are just kids who're dragging themselves through a semester with nothing else to do, unsure of the future, etc. Like ie., I got a sister who's 24, and she has got absolutely no clue of what to do in the future.

[Modred]

Some of my professors offer extra credit, but it is generally coupled with a required assignment, only worth a quarter or less percentage wise when evaluated with the required assignment, and more difficult than the required assignment. When extra credit is handled like this, I really don't have a problem with it.

However, I did have one class where extra credit points were handed out like candy for things like "go to a concert" and "attend required group meetings" (this was a non-major music class). From a lack of concert attendance, I got a B in the class, while a some twenty or so slackers managed to get As through a combination of cheating (exams were taken at your leisure on your own computer) and extra credit.

I think that the best "save your grade from imminent doom" solution is the one at our Physics department. If you pass the final with 90% or above, you get an A in the class, no questions asked; after all, you have mastered the material so no further considerations are necessary. However, if you score below this 90% threshold, all of your previous work for the semester will be averaged. So you could be lazy all semester and still make an A, but it's a generally stupid idea and very rarely works. On the other hand, if you do all of the work throughout the semester, even struggling through at a B or C level, you are much more likely to ace the final and guarantee an A.

[hammocksleeper]

I think that the best "save your grade from imminent doom" solution is the one at our Physics department. If you pass the final with 90% or above, you get an A in the class, no questions asked; after all, you have mastered the material so no further considerations are necessary. However, if you score below this 90% threshold, all of your previous work for the semester will be averaged. So you could be lazy all semester and still make an A, but it's a generally stupid idea and very rarely works. On the other hand, if you do all of the work throughout the semester, even struggling through at a B or C level, you are much more likely to ace the final and guarantee an A.

The big economics intro course here at my university taught by one of the best guys I know and a top professor in the nation (so this class is no joke) offers an even better deal to every student - the "Dutch knockout." If you score better on your final exam than in the class overall (doesn't matter how well you do) than the final exam counts as 100% of your final grade; if not, your final grade is your average for the semester.