Let's Talk about Andrew Meyer

[Prozerran]

Here is the most concise recording of the events you may or may not have heard about on the news regarding the Florida student who was tasered by police after asking John Kerry questions regarding any affiliation with the secret society, Skull and Bones.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=TIYTJ75U4NU

I don't know this kid, and from what I've seen, he doesn't sound like a particularly humble soul. In short, he makes a complete ass out of himself. But watching this makes me sick, and forgive my "obviously biased" position on this as an individual who values freedom of speech. So, let's clear the air with a discussion about this, just so we're all on the same page.

In this video, John Kerry is giving a speech. He finishes what he says and turns to identify Andrew Meyer and asks for his question. Meyer begins with background information for his questions for Kerry, then asks three questions.

Why did you concede the election on the very day of the election before these voting machines were investigated?

Why have you [Kerry] not asked for impeachment proceedings to be brought on George W. Bush?

And are you a member of the secret society, Skull and Bones?

Now, are these loaded questions? Absolutely. Should Kerry be made to answer them? No. Does Kerry ask authorities to step in and escort the student out of his forum? NO! Kerry says "I'll respond to his question, because it's a very important question." If you didn't hear it in this video, watch this.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

There are those of us on this board who think this guy got exactly what he deserved, and I'm happy to hear why you think it was necessary. I want to know why this kid was arrested for asking questions. QUESTIONS! Questions Kerry said he would answer.

How would you have reacted if you had unpopular questions to ask a politician like Kerry and were escorted out by police? Would you cooperate or would you cry injustice? Was this a just enforcement of law by eliminating a public nuisance, or was this unjust abuse of the law?

I've tried to make this discussion as objective as possible, and I apologize in advance for the glaringly obvious bias I leave you with on this initial post. I don't even like this guy, but I guess I just hate how he was treated more.

Please, discuss this with some seriousness. Thanks.

-Proz

EDIT: And one follow-up question.

If you were John Kerry, a knowledgeable former prosecutor fully aware of the law and the rights afforded to citizens by the constitution including free speech, why would you NOT vehemently instruct officers to release the student if you really intended to answer his question? He says he wants to answer the student's question, he mumbles and rambles during the events as they unfold, but instead of seeing the officers taking the student into custody for asking these questions if they're important enough to answer (however rude the student's tone may have been in asking them)? What kind of standard is Kerry upholding, and what kind of standard are we upholding cheering it on as it occurs? Just more slanted (sorry) food for thought.

[Neo]

I've been rather irritated with this topic every since I saw it on digg -- as soon as tasers are mentioned, all common sense is thrown right out the window. I've even argued with this about my mom, though to the point where she at least understands my viewpoint at least (Which is a break through, let me tell you).

From my understanding, and forgive me, since I've no wish to watch the full video, is that this kid was in some sort of scuffle outside (either with or without police?). He then 'barged' (forced?) his way into this kerry event, and proceeded to "ask questions" -- and eventually there comes a point where he's like "get off me and I'll leave" but instead gets tasered or whatever.

Ok so, heres what I think, and I maybe totally off the ball, since I've paid very little attention to this accept what my mother dug up (you know this guy has a website called "THEandremeyer" -- kinda full of yourself right?) --

The guy deserved it. This has nothing to do with asking questions, nor does it have anything to do with kerry (personally I got a slight vibe that this would be the perfect way to knock kerry's publicity down to almost nil) and everything to do with conduct.

You don't get to come to point where the police are on top of you where you get to say "get off and I'll leave" and they'll let you go.

This is yet another sensationalist bullshit taser story. For instance;

"Family sueing over the death of a family member in relation to tasering"

Whats your first thought? That the cops where in the wrong? Not so much, considering the relative who died was being uncooperative, and the cops asked the family for permission to use the taser. And then the coroner mentioned that the taser played very little into they woman's death.

Tasers are simply the new hot button and everytime this kind of story pops up people are going to act first and think later.

Proz you seem to miss the point entirely, and I'm sure kerry wanted little else to do with that guy.

He wasn't arrested for asking questions dammit.

I couldnt get to my camera in time to record his entrance, but this guy basically comes running in with 4 or 5 cops in tow and says he has been running around trying to get in to ask a question and the cops are going to arrest him for it.

(some guy who submitted the video) -- indicates that if the kid is being chased by fucking cops before he even enters the room or whatever, then theres a bit more going on then "asking questions"

-Neo

[Skullflower]

Wouldn't that qualify as restisting arrest? He was practically fighting the officers. I mean, that dumbass deserved to be tasered. And those people yelling "Police Brutality!" are retarded.


And what is Skull and Bones supposed to be anyways?

[GenocideAlive]

Seriously, if you're too fucking lazy to either watch the video or Google "Skull and Bones Society", you probably need to get the fuck out of the IR. It's a minute of your life, either way.

As far as the actual topic goes, that guy should be fined pretty heavily. John Kerry came to make a speech and answer questions from individuals, and he basically took advantage of it for purposes of attention whoring. This was so stupid and contrived it makes me sick.

When the people hosting the session cut the mic, that's your cue to shut up. When two cops put their arms on you because you're now shouting above the speaker, that's your cue to stop shouting. When three cops grab you and start physically forcing you to the exit, that's the time to snap out of it and take the hint. When four cops shove you to the ground and try to slap handcuffs on you, that's your cue to start cooperating. When a uniformed police officer that's trying to restrain you shouts that he's going to tase you if you don't get your shit together, that's not the time to shout back "get the fuck off me".

I could barely suppress laughter at his cries and whining. Seriously, he's how old? And he yells "help me" after he physically fights uniformed police officers trying to keep him from completely ruining a national political figure's Q & A. "Help" him what? Force Kerry to answer questions about the Skull and Bones society? Scream over event organizers about his "questions"? Fight the police trying to keep order on the event organizer's behalf?

Prozerran, I'm really sorry that this upsets you so much. You should be more aware of people attempting to manipulate your emotions to further their own ends.

[ScottieIWU]

Prozerran, I'm really sorry that this upsets you so much. You should be more aware of people attempting to manipulate your emotions to further their own ends.I think the way that Jon Stewart put it in terms of Andrew Meyer himself, namely "student douchebaggery" was the best way to put it.

After all, he clearly went to make a scene, he has previously tried to make scenes, and he was resisting officers.

That said, there are like 2-4 officers at all times, and he's nothing but a scrawny college kid. If those officers wish to say that he posed enough danger to warrant a taser, I'm thinking they're wrong. At the very least they should've done it away from cameras?

It's a lose-lose situation. You can't stand up for him because, well, he's a moron. You (or rather, I) can't stand up for the police because I don't feel like it was completely warranted.

[CrazyTom]

It sounded to me like if he'd shut up when the police told him, Kerry would've answered his question, but he kept screaming. Well, he was clearly warned, above his screaming, that he was about to be tazered. He knew he was about to be tazered, but he didn't lie still. *shrugs* Good job to the police for removing a public disturbance. Scottie - they tazed him because he was resisting them. It doesn't matter if he wasn't particularly a threat - he was resisting arrest, he was warned what his behaviour would lead to, and then he was tazered. Was it heavy-handed? I think so. But if they'd let him continue causing a disturbance they would've been seen as lax. The police have one of the hardest jobs in the world, often they have to react quickly because people may be in danger... I dunno, maybe they thought he was going to pull a gun or something?

[Tech]

As far as him getting arrested for asking questions, that's ridiculous. There is no way that would stand up in a court of law, and I would sure hope no cop would be stupid enough to think so. I think we can all agree that he was resisting arrest, which right there allows the cops to step up the amount of force they use. This is a more complicated issue than just was the taser necessary to restrain him, obviously with all of those cops he wasn't going anywhere.

-But could the cops get his arm into the handcuffs without breaking it?

I would assume that wrestling with officers is like any other contact sport that gets your adrenaline pumping, now adrenaline probably didn't make him strong enough to break free, but he only has to wriggle around enough so that the cops can't cuff him, that's significantly easier than a normal fight with six cops. Yet I can see how people can argue this point.

-Could they get him under arrest and out of the middle of a potential mob before things reached a boiling point?

This is the clincher for me as to why they used the taser. The cops are in an environment where they're on the ground surrounded by people who don't like them at the moment, arresting one of the mobs buddies. When the students start yelling at the cops to stop it, to get off him, and police brutality; that's a sign that they need to end this situation before it turns into a riot. I think the taser ended the situation very effectively.

So yes, I can see why some people would think that the taser was unnecessary, but I can definitely see why the cops used it.

[Prozerran]

Well, I got some perspective through a friend of mine (law student) on all of this, so allow me to shed some more light on this.

Universities are privately owned (as far as property goes), so Meyers wasn't being illegally removed from the room. The owners of the facility have the right to escort any student off of their property. This isn't really a speech issue either, because he got to ask his questions (however briefly) before he was removed. The only legal issue here, surprisingly enough, is the use of force. He had no weapon. He was only carrying a book, and he never actually struck an officer (though you can make a case for 'pushed').

At any rate, I've calmed down a bit. I'm still pissed that this asshole gets all this attention and "freedom of speech" garbage. I'm still annoyed at the laughter and applause of the crowd while he's getting thrown to the ground and tasered, and I still think John Kerry is a fucking idiot and pussy for not taking a more affirmative stance during the scuffle. He was the speaker on the floor, he stated his intent to answer the kid's question, and he just jabbers on like nothing is going on.

I mean, we may not agree with the guy's point of view, but there are a number of people that have these kinds of doubts about the government and its officials. You don't have to like his point of view, but what kind of standard does it set to cheer this kind of shit on when it escalates to violence? I don't think it really matters that this guy acted like an ass... it probably could have helped him get to the podium and get a little longer talk-time on the mic if he behaved more professionally... but it appears in the video as though people were applauding his removal because of his questions, not because of his actions. No one was really "up in arms" or outspoken when this kid comes up to the podium.

If it were just that people were laughing at this kid because he was being an ass, I probably wouldn't have a problem. But serious questions like these need answers, and too many people either ignore them or make fools out of themselves when they ask them. I guess that's really what just irks! me about all of it. I dunno.

[GenocideAlive]

I'd agree with you if I thought that either this kid's Freedom of Speech was being impugned (it wasn't), or he was asking academic questions with serious answers. As it was, he asked John Kerry a series of rhetorical questions that were mainly goading. John Kerry has answered those questions in one form or another tens of times. And any time that kind of rally is occurring, nobody has any "rights" to forum. If the organizers want you gone, it doesn't matter--you're gone.

As far as the crowd's reaction, there are many people who are forced to deal with jackasses every day. When you're forced to endure someone intentionally ruining a public seminar for personal attention, I don't think it entirely wrong for them to be glad to see the person get a response from police.

If anything else, you can take comfort in the fact that there will always be the "Checks and Balances". While there were some people cheering at him getting nailed, there were others crying "police brutality". ;)

[Gunmonk]

I beleive john kerry's words were "...um.... ya know...um... Unfortunately this young man is unable to come up and swear me in" notice hes not saying anything about andrew meyer current situation or sympathizing with the man. He asked loaded but legitimate questions regardless of the question kerry was gonna answer it... but it makes me laugh when kerry is going um... uh... ya know... um.... I do allot of public speaking for my age, and honestly if you are any kind of good speaker you dont go um... uh... ya know... um... Kerry cant think on his feet, that is what his problem is.. and if hes not careful this will kill him big time in 08. On to mr meyer, Meyer didnt deserve to be tazed first thing they should have done is put cuffs on him, secondly he had done nothing that would warrant him to be escorted off 'stage', by me asking a question am I gonna get shot at? I mean has it really come down to that? I understand the guy may have been a bigger moron than I but such as it is at the moment the police are just askling for a lawsuit

[Tech]

Wow, you should write to the Florida State Campus Safety department and let them know about your little tip about handcuffing suspects, I bet they've never thought about that. But seriously, have you seen any video of this incident at all? The kid was struggling against the cops the whole time, it's kind of hard to put a hand cuff on a wrist that won't stop moving.

As far as your second point (not including the irrelevant crap about Kerry), he did everything he possibly could to get thrown out. After being asked to leave he was belligerent and refused to do so, that right there gets you escorted out. It was the resisting arrest part that got him tased, not the question.

[DragonPaladin]

want to know why this kid was arrested for asking questions. QUESTIONS! Questions Kerry said he would answer.


Very common misconception and a very eager point for people to jump at in this day and age. Let me repeat for the final time. Right of speech not applicable. He was not in a public area, it was a specific event hosted by campus staff. They have the right to remove him if they choose. The police were also not arresting him for asking questions. That is, without a doubt, the most inane and irrational conclusion one could come up with. He is being charged with disturbing the peace (yelling screaming, disrupting public events) and resisting arrest. Some complain that his charges were not told before he was arrested, by in a U.S. Supreme Court case, the police do not actually have to tell the charges until you are in custody.

n to mr meyer, Meyer didnt deserve to be tazed first thing they should have done is put cuffs on him, secondly he had done nothing that would warrant him to be escorted off 'stage', by me asking a question am I gonna get shot at?

He was warned. He continued to struggle which is relatively a stupid thing to do int he case with police officers. The logical verdict is that it was proper and necessary. He was being escorted offstage because the campus staff felt that it was appropriate. The mike was cut off and a person basically came to take it away. When questions of such nature violate the basic guidelines set out by the forum, then the creators have the right to ensure the process remains educational.

[Prozerran]

Very common misconception and a very eager point for people to jump at in this day and age. Let me repeat for the final time. Right of speech not applicable. He was not in a public area, it was a specific event hosted by campus staff. They have the right to remove him if they choose. The police were also not arresting him for asking questions. That is, without a doubt, the most inane and irrational conclusion one could come up with. He is being charged with disturbing the peace (yelling screaming, disrupting public events) and resisting arrest. Some complain that his charges were not told before he was arrested, by in a U.S. Supreme Court case, the police do not actually have to tell the charges until you are in custody.

Yes, I addressed this in a later post. Legally, you're right. I think there's a little bit of a problem with calling it an "Open Forum" if it's not 'open' to all of the public but to only those people who tend to ask the 'right' questions. Still, there's nothing legally that seems to contend with the fact that it is University property and the University reserves the right to remove you from its property. So, you're not really going to get an argument out of me on this. We sort of agree here.

[GenocideAlive]

A worthy addition.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/dont-taze-me-bro.html

[Anoiktos]

My viewpoint on this is simple. Regardless of the merit involved with his questions, the student did two things he should not have, and his motives in doing so were likely not the best, in keeping with his previous actions.

Allow me to explain.

1. He asked multiple questions. In doing so, he stifled the free speech of other potential question-askers in the crowd, demanding more than his fair share of the time and directly contradicting the rules attendees were given for asking questions. Furthermore, he only got to his question after recommending a book that Kerry said he'd read multiple times, asked multiple questions that were none so reputable as the ones you mention, each with a fairly incendiary attitude,
If you are so against Iran how come you're not saying
Let's impeach Bush now.
Impeach Bush now before he can invade Iran.
Why don't we impeach him? Impeach Bush.
Clinton was impeached, for what a blowjob, why don't we Impeach bush?
Alright..
Also, are you a member... were you a member of Skull & Bones in college with Bush? Were you in the same secret society as Bush?
Were you in Skull & Bones?
(and again, taking up more of the Q&A time other question-askers could have used).

2. He resisted the police (who, I agree, should have answered him when he asked whether he was under arrest.), ignored three requests to comply, each stating that he would be tased if he did not comply.

Now, these could just be misunderstandings or police prejudice, or he could have been quite reasonable in his manner and speech, but he wasn't - he was intentionally confrontational and incendiary.

He's done this kind of attention-grabbing, intentionally incendiary behavior (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1768656) before (note: this video was removed both from his site (http://theandrewmeyer.com/) and from youtube), and terms himself a 'political activist' but this kind of evidence makes it likely in my mind that his purpose in doing this was to attract attention. Well, he got it, and now he has even more.

There are many ways he could have better handled the situation, but consider the case of the police: they have someone who is directly breaking the rules, taking up others' time, and setting a precedent for others to do so. This person is acting dangerously confrontational, which is bound to make anyone nervous, and then will not be quietly removed, but instead decides to resist past the point of reason.

I definitely agree that his questions were interesting, and some of them were even relevant, but he was intentionally making everyone's job more difficult (this I wouldn't mind if it was just making Kerry's job harder, frankly... Hard questions are good) and ignoring other peoples' rights to ask questions in the time allotted.

Again, the problem is not that he asked difficult questions, but that he ignored the rules of the open forum and in doing so made it less open for the other participants.

Because of these points, I have little sympathy for him.

[ScottieIWU]

1. He asked multiple questions. In doing so, he stifled the free speech of other potential question-askers in the crowd, demanding more than his fair share of the time and directly contradicting the rules attendees were given for asking questions. Furthermore, he only got to his question after recommending a book that Kerry said he'd read multiple times, asked multiple questions that were none so reputable as the ones you mention, each with a fairly incendiary attitude,

(and again, taking up more of the Q&A time other question-askers could have used).Next time I'm in class and I ask more than one question of my professor without giving someone else a chance to ask, remind the police to taser me.

But in all seriousness, nobody (well, nobody who isn't out of his mind) is saying that this kid isn't a moron, a douchebag, and maybe was trying to get a response from the police.

That said, the police response was probably extremely excessive, especially considering it's very, very clear that he was struggling, but not posing much, if any, threat to the officers.

[Anoiktos]

Next time I'm in class and I ask more than one question of my professor without giving someone else a chance to ask, remind the police to taser me.
The situations are very different; school is an environment where asking questions should be encouraged because the object is to ensure that the students understand what is going on, and your multiple questions would no doubt be along the same theme as whatever that day's subject (or, at worst, that classes' subject) was. Furthermore, if you were acting confrontational and disruptive while asking those questions in class, and refused to stop, the teacher (well, at least most of the teachers I've had) would likely ask you to leave, or ignore you in favor of another student after the first question. Kerry didn't really have that luxury, because each question unanswered becomes a liability for that candidate.

And while I agree that the police's response was somewhat excessive, I've rarely seen police react very well to someone completely ignoring them three times in a row. I will definitely agree that they should have responded to his question about being under arrest (perhaps with a 'yes', but maybe they didn't have that authority for whatever reason).

[Neo]

I'd just like to note that I'm pretty sure it wasn't a full on taze (ie: point and shoot) more then likely it was the "poke and shock" method, which isn't as powerful as the point+shoot+painful-barbs-in-skin method.

Though there have been so many cases of police brutality popping up, its hard not to automatically jump on them.

-Neo

[Tech]

I will definitely agree that they should have responded to his question about being under arrest (perhaps with a 'yes', but maybe they didn't have that authority for whatever reason).

This is the first thing I'd like to point out, he didn't ask whether he was under arrest. The first words out of his mouth when the police touched him were, what are you arresting me for? Did the thought even cross his mind that he might just be getting escorted out of the building? That's probably the case though, he was most likely just going to be escorted from the building, because as it's been said before asking questions isn't a crime, but he wanted attention and resisted officers.

Now as for the use of excessive force, I think I've addressed the issue before in this thread. Had this confrontation taken place outside, or on the side of a road somewhere the taser wouldn't be necessary. But as it stands, the guy was causing a scene in a relatively crowded auditorium, screaming for help, and people were actually standing up and approaching the officers. Now I'm sure none of the bystanders would actually do anything, but is that a risk that cops should have taken? Then take into account the fact that there is a celebrity in the room, and police are probably being over cautious because of it. No cop wants to be the one responsible for someone getting killed or starting a riot because a bystander grabs your gun. You have to realize that the suspect isn't the only threat to officers, a hostile environment is much more dangerous than a struggling suspect.

[GenocideAlive]

No cop wants to be the one responsible for someone getting killed or starting a riot because a bystander grabs your gun. You have to realize that the suspect isn't the only threat to officers, a hostile environment is much more dangerous than a struggling suspect.
Additionally, no cop wants to be the one responsible for the shooting of John Kerry. You never know when the raving lunatic you're dragging to the floor is armed and intends to make a statement a la the VT shooting. When a celebrity is in the room and someone begins behavior that is reminiscent of a person that is mentally disturbed, it justifiably puts law enforcement on edge. Yeah, it's clear he's a wacko--but is he a wacko with a gun.