(4)Circular Ruins(n)

[devilesk]

One of my first melee maps. I'm a noob.

Posting it here so I can get more comments and feedback.

http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)circular%20ruins(n)[1].jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=2451

[Protogod]

This is basically a better Lost Temple.

Very similar design and feel. The gameplay would go essentially the same, except T wouldn't have such an easy time.

HOWEVER; You need to place a mineral patch in those backdoor expos. A terran can just lift his CC and land it behind his base for an easy expo. You need to place a mineral patch at 0-16 in place of a cc landing zone.

[ExcaliburMM]

In the cliffs on the back/side of each base that you have going there are a lot of spots where a tank would fit. Try to fix those up.

[Thedutchjelle]

If this is one of your first maps, then i really look forward seeing more of you 0_0
MY first melee map looked quite different :P

Imo the mineral placement in the bottom right looks kinda weird, and i would like it more if you manage to get rid of thise inverted ramps. But that might be me >_>'

I really like how this map doesn't allow T players to siege the main of the enemy like Lost Temple does. I agree with Proto, this is a better version of LT.

[TitanWing]

It's not that bad...in fact quite good for a 1st map. Though the ruins in the middle need to be made more appealing.

[Protogod]

Though the ruins in the middle need to be made more appealing.

Purely aesthetic, so I'd let it slip.

[Kawagata]

The geyser changed from the island to a nearby expo.

[TitanWing]

I actually like this better than LT.

[Kawagata]

Yeah.. Lt was t-imba with the cliff over your natural.

[TitanWing]

And the unblocked island.

[Ahzz]

i dont. too much unaccessible high dirt.

[Kawagata]

Accessible= siege tank.
but yeah.. It is a bit bland.

[devilesk]

Thanks for all your comments. I updated it by putting in a min patch, 8 mins, in each back expo as Protogod suggested and I went through the cliffs to make sure tanks couldn't fit anywhere there.

http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(4)circular%20ruins(n)[1].jpg

[TitanWing]

Does the mineral block prevent a CC from landing ANYWHERE on the island? If not, you may need to add 1-2 more (value of 0).

[devilesk]

Oh, I didn't check for that.

Okay fixed.

[TitanWing]

Oh, I didn't check for that.That's the whole point of the block. :P

[devilesk]

Yea, I'm a real noob.

[TitanWing]

Meh, you're better than you think.

[devilesk]

I've attached an obs version to my first post

Also, I think I'm going to be entering this map into TitanWing's contest.

[Kawagata]

you've got to make it abit more creative though.

[TitanWing]

Yes, I'm afraid you're not close to finishing this if you want a high score on creativity. Currently, it's what we call an "LT clone" and they are very common.

You're fairly new to melee mapping and making an LT clone is a great way to learn the basics, but you'll be left in the dust by the more experienced mappers in the competition.

The best way to score high is to use the mirror tool and make a symmetrical map, this gives you a 10 on positional balance. Easy 10 points. Next is to spend a lot of time on aesthetics...that can mean between a 5-10 on that part and every point counts.

Race MU balance is the most difficult part and even the best mappers in the world have problems with it, it takes a lot of time and feedback.

[Protogod]

Currently, it's what we call an "LT clone" and they are very common.

Who's "we" ?

Either way, I agree with titan. This map is good for a start, but it isnt competition material.

[TitanWing]

"we" as in most mappers on BWMN and other sites. It's a term I learned from there.

[Chef]

I don't consider anything without a cliff above the nat an LT clone -.- The game dynamics are so incredibly different it's just silly to call it that. The resources also scale differently. LT is 8, 8, 6 with no gas at the 6, while this is 9, 8, 7, with gas on the 7.

I won't say this map is exactly innovative, but it isn't an LT clone.

[Protogod]

I don't consider anything without a cliff above the nat an LT clone -.- The game dynamics are so incredibly different it's just silly to call it that. The resources also scale differently. LT is 8, 8, 6 with no gas at the 6, while this is 9, 8, 7, with gas on the 7.

I won't say this map is exactly innovative, but it isn't an LT clone.

Which was my point in mentioning that people here would not call it an LT Clone.

[Chef]

This is basically a better Lost Temple.

Very similar design and feel. The gameplay would go essentially the same, except T wouldn't have such an easy time.
Actually, I think you were the first to infer it was like LT. Which it is not. I don't know why people here hate cliffs above the nat. I guess you guys just never learned to play LT (seriously, is it that hard to get Mutas or a shuttle? If you do you completely fuck this simple Terran strategy). Like, you guys are actually ridiculous in your hate for cliffs.

[Protogod]

Actually, I think you were the first to infer it was like LT. Sorta. I said it looked like LT, which is undeniable. It's terrain is essentially the same. I was agreeing with you that the minerals and lack of cliffs made it different tho. It isnt an LT "clone" but it is definitely based on LT. I guess you guys just never learned to play LT (seriously, is it that hard to get Mutas or a shuttle? If you do you completely fuck this simple Terran strategy). Like, you guys are actually ridiculous in your hate for cliffs.

This is just you being a condescending little....nevermind. But let's not troll/flame, thank you. Some of us who've been here longer don't like being talked down to by someone who...well...is 100% unknown.

[TitanWing]

Proto, you're a mod, so act like one.

Chef, I appreciate your opinion and you do have some good points, but the point of the topic is to help Devilesk...not debate the definition of "LT clone". It's not a particularly important issue to clear up.

Tankable cliffs over naturals aren't found in any other WGT maps for a reason. It forces Protoss and Zerg to get air/transports fast and limits options.

[Protogod]

Tankable cliffs over naturals aren't found in any other WGT maps for a reason. It forces Protoss and Zerg to get air/transports fast and limits options.

Although, my normal PvT bo already entails fast shuttles (for zbombs) so it wouldn't be a problem for me anymore. ;)

[Kawagata]

ZvT would be a problem though. Remember Blizzard created all races to be equal. No matter if you're Zerg, Protoss or Terran.

[TitanWing]

It's ok if you go muta/ling, but lurk/ling is gonna get raped.

[Chef]

Tankable cliffs over naturals aren't found in any other WGT maps for a reason. It forces Protoss and Zerg to get air/transports fast and limits options.
Tau Cross? If by "forcing" you mean scouting the enemy going a fast Starport with control tower and countering it, yes, it does. Just like scouting someone going SKTerran 'forces" the Zerg to get lurker/defiler and Protoss to get Templar tech. Protoss easily incorporate zealot bombs once they get shuttles, and Zerg almost always go Muta anyway (it's why you don't see any nat drops on Tau Cross). It's generally a noobie strategy (to tank drop a cliff) these days unless you know your opponent is doing something weird and you can punish him for it.

ANYWAY, so I at least say something on topic: Devilesk's map shouldn't been tossed aside because it's an LT clone. It should be tossed aside because it has nothing to offer that pro maps don't already offer in better and more balanced ways. The map simply put, is boring. Whenever I make a map, I ask myself this question: What's different when someone plays my map instead of someone else's? If the answer is nothing, I don't make the map. It's the same reason I don't make island maps (they're all the fucking same done to death conceptless boring maps). In order to make one any good, you have to add neutral units, and at that point you might as well just be making a semi island map since they're a lot funner.

In short: My advice to any mapper is to be innovative. People won't like your maps, but they wouldn't have played them anyway if they weren't.

[devilesk]

Tried something different here. Put in some extended bridge (yes I know not original at all), and the ruins and the middle expo jungle areas are highground (has it been done before and would it negatively affect the gameplay?).

[TitanWing]

Looks pretty good. It looks like a cross between LT and Artist. I like it.

[Chef]

Honestly, I think random high ground is just annoying for players in game. It's nice when the map actually makes sense.

What you could maybe do to make this map slightly more interesting, is put a ramp going over your natural and to the other players back door island expo, like this:

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7091/suggetions1sn9.jpg

And you could maybe add a neutral building, so that other bases (IE ones that aren't inhabited by a player) can still sort of act as an island.

[ExcaliburMM]

Well devilesk i can say that i wouldnt of expected your map to improve this much from when i saw the original upload at BWMN.

Good work.

[TitanWing]

I like Chef's idea.

[Protogod]

Tried something different here. Put in some extended bridge (yes I know not original at all), and the ruins and the middle expo jungle areas are highground (has it been done before and would it negatively affect the gameplay?).
I like it. It reminds me of the progress between the days of LT and the days of WGT13/14

The bridges remind me of gaia (and artist as titan pointed out) and a couple other maps I can't think of.

I like Chef's idea.
It's risky. It would drastically alter gameplay as it stands. Imo, you should use neutral buildings to block the bridge between natural/backdoor expo.

However, if it succeeds it would give this map more character, which is definitely my only real problem with it.
Well devilesk i can say that i wouldnt of expected your map to improve this much from when i saw the original upload at BWMN.

Well said, except I saw it on SEN, not BWMN.

[Kawagata]

Like Arkanoid? Block off?

[devilesk]

Okay, made some more changes.

I forgot to try putting in a neutral building to block off the highland.

[Protogod]

I dont like it atm. The current design makes it VERY easy for T or Z to double expo, allowing T to turtle, and Z to gain uber economy within early game.

[devilesk]

So are you saying it needs to be blocked off with buildings?

[Protogod]

So are you saying it needs to be blocked off with buildings?

I dont even think that would be enough to stop Terran.

[Chef]

No, he's saying he doesn't play StarCraft so he doesn't know what he's talking about.

In my picture I drew the ramp from the bridge to around the natural for a reason (adds dynamics). You can keep it at behind the natural, but it looks weird and takes away a lot of game play possibilities.

If you DO block it off with a building, you'll have two choices to make. You can block it off at the ramp nearest the natural, or the ramp nearest the semi-island.

At the natural, will mean players will have to destroy it early on to protect from stupid players attempting a drop. It will probably have almost no significance except that when a player expands to another bases natural, he may not bother to destroy the neutral and will end up having a cliffable expansion.

At the semi-island: Players will probably not bother to destroy the neutral until they're about ready to expand. It also means that players may just run up their opponents ramp and hold it, getting free hits on the natural. This could produce an exciting game dynamic not entirely unlike Sin Gaema Gowon (though slightly more balanced if you keep the ramp within the sunkens' reach).

Both of these solutions will allow the other 2 main bases' ones to act as islands.

[Protogod]

No, he's saying he doesn't play StarCraft so he doesn't know what he's talking about.


Lol, what would I know? I'm just a maps Moderator... :mad: