Do you believe in god?

[WarInSerbia]

Do you believe/have faith in god?

[TheListener]

Yes.

God*

[Protogod]

This wont end well...

& my answer was no, of course not.


PS: god*

[ClintonM]

Obviously it won't end well...

I believe a better question would be "Do you have Faith in God?", I'm just now finding out there's a difference ;). And yes, I do happily believe/have faith in god :D.

The whole evolution thing doesn't make that much sense even if I didn't believe in god, there are too many gaps. "Hey, humans were like squirrels at one time!"... Um... No we weren't lol.

[WarInSerbia]

This wont end well...
Why?And why do you have "god" in your username when you don't believe in him?

[ClintonM]

Why?And why do you have "god" in your username when you don't believe in him?

He's using god as a noun, not god as in "God". Protoss God is what I'd assume he means... I think he's trying to sound like an "elitist" or something and some people fall for it :).

[Protogod]

"Hey, humans were like squirrels at one time!"... Um... No we weren't lol.
Phail. At no point was that ever said, kthx. Its clear that you dislike evolution becaues you dont understand it.

Why?And why do you have "god" in your username when you don't believe in him?
So in order to say the word "god" you need to believe in it religiously?
He's using god as a noun, not god as in "God". Protoss God is what I'd assume he means... I think he's trying to sound like an "elitist" or something and some people fall for it .
Again; phail.

[WTyger]

Do you believe/have faith in god?

That's a 'dangerous' question as in the fact that everyone has
a seperate 'view' on said subject......but I believe in the end that
it is This way that Satan divides humanity Against God......


"A Kingdom divided will always fall......"
(The Lord said onto those accusing him of being in leauge with the Devil);)
Let the Debate Continue.......onto the End of Days, and surly Satan shall have His way.....

[Skullflower]

Phail. At no point was that ever said, kthx. Its clear that you dislike evolution becaues you dont understand it.


He never said that it was.

[Protogod]

The whole evolution thing doesn't make that much sense even if I didn't believe in god, there are too many gaps. "Hey, humans were like squirrels at one time!"... Um... No we weren't lol.

^ exactly, he never said that.

[xCYDx]

I do. But i dislike churches and dogma. So I define myself as deist.

[apostolos]

Course I do.

[Kellanved]

Well it depends on your defenition of a god. See, while in our culture we take it for granted that the defenition of a 'god' is an intelligent and conscious entity that has capabilities to dwarf our own and amaze us, that isn't exactly the case with all cultures.

I don't exactly remember the specifics, but I've learned of nomadic tribal societies that considered mere concepts and ideas as 'gods'. For example, if they consider 'War' as a god, it's because war is a phoenomenon that, while triggered by humans, it is something that is beyond any one human's control, and so in a way, it almost governs what a human does. So those societies never prayed to war, nor believed that there was even some spiritual thing up there that represents war; they just deem it a god for its full capabilities. And in fact, they would take measures to deter its attention.

I have learned of pre-colonial tribes in Guatemala that held to cycles of the sun and the moon as pillars of Earth, and beacons that keep the cycle or some such poetry stuff that, to us, would sound heavily like a religion. Yet when those who held to those beliefs were interviewed, they said that they weren't of any religion, and/or didn't believe in any god.

So when you say 'god', what exactly are you referring to? I would assume some sort of mainstream entity like one of the popular monotheistic faiths. But would it be the jewish god; the muslum god; the christian god? I know they all originated from the same lore, but that lore was modified in such a way that it strained into different branches, each of modified idealisms where the god starts to be referred to in different connotations in respective texts, and thus, it becomes different gods. So then if someone said 'yes', which one do you think it would it refer to?

Now I will assume that you're going to a more broad mainstream and conventional sense: Asking if this world and/or universe we live in is only present because of an intelligent plan and powerful guided course of action. In this, I will have to say no, I do not believe in that. By your standards, you might say I'm a full-fledged athiest. I don't believe in overwhelming entities out there that do not depend on material sustenance (like an inhabitable planet's resources), nor do I believe in the semi-unrelated but loosely connected notion that we are entities beyond our physical manifestation, and that we would go somewhere when we die. That, in my opinion, is a notion fashioned by people's anxiety and their intransigence over their own mortality.

However, that is by your standards. I still believe in gods in my own respect. For example, I agree with the nomadic tribal society's notion that war is such a phoenomenon that is beyond few men's control, and that in a way, it governs us (even though it is created by us rather than vice versa). I also believe that the Christian god, while not a factual entity, is a concept that is so overwhelming that it is a meagre idea that has killed so many people in the christian crusades, and thus by the particular exampled defenition of a god, it may just be one. As for powerful spiritual entities or superior beings that aren't just mere aliens, well, not so much...

(Thus far, only two people including myself have voted 'no'. I'm pretty surprised by this outcome.)

[xCYDx]

Maybe it's a stupid cliché, but I think Americans are quite often religious people. Am I wrong ?

[Icarus]

^ Well, it's politically incorrect to generalize, but the majority of americans are indeed religious people.

[Kellanved]

The whole evolution thing doesn't make that much sense even if I didn't believe in god, there are too many gaps. "Hey, humans were like squirrels at one time!"... Um... No we weren't lol.
You don't believe in it because you never studied it, but it makes perfect sense. Squirrels were never said to be on the evolutionary path to humans.
But listen to (or read, lol) this: man has been around long enough to witness (and facilitate) the generation-line transformation of the asian white wolf to the poodle. If you weren't told they were both dogs, you'd think they were entirely different species (and technically they are, by the biological species concept). If that can happen in a couple thousand years, imagine what can happen in billions.

[VigilanteV]

http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1187289781956.jpg

yes...yes i do believe in god.

[Leosam096]

I believe in God and I have faith in Him.

[kongurous]

http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1187289781956.jpg

yes...yes i do believe in god.

HAHAHAHAHAH! 4chan leech! Fuck you for breaking rules 1 and 2!

Now, do I believe in God? I was raised a Christian and I incorporate it into my beliefs, but I don't so much believe in God as I do an indifferent higher power that doesn't give a shit about what we do or how we act. Doesn't stop me from praying to it from time to time or looking to it when I need help in life. It seems incredibly unlikely, no matter the evidence, that all of observable existence happened because some horribly dense object decided to suddenly explode. I believe that science and religion can coexist peacefully.

Proto, learn how to spell "fail", it's not a hard word.

[VigilanteV]

wait...you just broke them too?

[Observer]

I believe in God and have faith in him. There is so much evidence, I'm suprised that we are not converting a whole lot of people, so fast.

[Protogod]

There is so much evidence, I'm suprised that we are not converting a whole lot of people, so fast.

Might I ask what it is? Gogogo!

[BlackDefiler]

Do I believe in God? Absolutely not. We have to admit, that the almighty deity most widespread churches follow is a severely outdated picture of a God.

There is one thing that keeps creationist religion going, and that's the fact, that we don't know exactly how the universe came to be. And since this is an unprecedented phenomenon (there is no "other" universe we could look at and say "this one came to existence so and so, and this can presumably be applied to our universe as well") we cannot give a 100% sure explanation.

But even if the universe was "created" by some kind of entity or sentient mechanism it has/had absolutely nothing in common with the Gods humanity has been worshiping throughout it's history.

The whole evolution thing doesn't make that much sense even if I didn't believe in god, there are too many gaps. "Hey, humans were like squirrels at one time!"... Um... No we weren't lol.

I suppose you don't know yet that DNA has been discovered. Reactions and natural mutations of nuclein acids prove evolution to the letter.

[Skullflower]

But even if the universe was "created" by some kind of entity or sentient mechanism it has/had absolutely nothing in common with the Gods humanity has been worshiping throughout it's history.


Why is that?

[Kellanved]

Why is that?
Because all the details pertaining to the god(s) in question involve details that are entirely arbitrary, and contributes nothing to the merit of the creation of a world. What I mean is, if we conclude that this world was fashioned by intelligent design, it wouldn't make sense to add our own minute details, like that he's a wroth crabby guy, or that he once made a utopian garden, etc.

Also, if I may add my own part: If you infer that we were created by intelligence, how can you jump to the conclusion that this presence is benign, or even the most slightly sympathetic to us? (I know kongurous doesn't, but the majority of theists do.) It seems like an assumption that's more based on the best possible scenario, and not the most logical.

To the thread creator: You still haven't specified what you mean by 'god'. Are you talking about any god of choosing in the three most mainstream monotheistic religion (christianity, judaism, islam)? Are you referring to any deity (eg. Vishnu, Chinese Dragon, the ancient Greek gods, Satan, etc...), or a god as a more conceptual thing and not really an entity?

[Thedutchjelle]

NO.

Don't feel like explaining now.

[TheListener]

I believe that science and religion can coexist peacefully.



I couldn't agree more.

I believe in the theory of evolution yet I have a strong belief in God and faith in God as well.

God* is a proper noun. He is not an object, nor a place therefore using "god" would be gramatically incorrect, Proto. I know you don't believe in a God, nor do you respect people who do, but please attempt to respect the English language, it didn't spring this malicious misanthropic hatred for all things religious into you, don't act like it did.

[Protogod]

God* is a proper noun. He is not an object, nor a place therefore using "god" would be gramatically incorrect, Proto. I know you don't believe in a God, nor do you respect people who do, but please attempt to respect the English language, it didn't spring this malicious misanthropic hatred for all things religious into you, don't act like it did.

Touche' indeed. If there is something I would wish to respect, it would most certainly be the something as beautiful and important as language.

And a +rep for calling me misanthropic.

[Gunmonk]

I believe in God and have faith in him. There is so much evidence, I'm suprised that we are not converting a whole lot of people, so fast.

And may I ask why that is that you are surprised that we dont have more converts? I mean what do you do? What do others do? Aside from Joel Olsteen and other telepreachers always wanting your money (cash only) is there any other face of christianity that others see? I believe in God and firmly hold to that point. I am a Follower of Christ (Christian works too however if you look at the original meaning of it I dont exactly agree with the meaning) I just dont really see how people can refute that there is a God. I cant exactly refute the big bang although I find that there are things in my mind that dont make sense. So let me ask, obviously there is "proof" on both sides of this little war of word and/or semantics so how can you tell your neighbor that he's wrong when you cant refute either subject? I dunno, I believe the evolution exists on a microbiological level possibly even macro just based on what I saw in biology class this last year. The only thing I have problems with is that every thing we see and/or breathe came from a single organism (set of amino acids thus creating DNA). All this to say God is like the xel'naga I mean no one has ever seen them we have seen the xel'naga's effects and really all that left is for us to debate wether they really exist or not. It is just the same I have come to believe about God I believe that we see his works but no one can refute him him or even prove him. The reason why I believe that there is a God is just from my own reasoning and certain things that have happened in my life that couldnt have been pure coincidence.

[Protogod]

The reason why I believe that there is a God is just from my own reasoning and certain things that have happened in my life that couldnt have been pure coincidence.
So you mean to say that certain things about your life make it true for you, even though others may not have had such experiences?

[Gunmonk]

So you mean to say that certain things about your life make it true for you, even though others may not have had such experiences?


yeah, I mean allot of stuff with my mum and her cancer its actually quite amazing that shes been doing as well as she has been doing (the doctors only gave her 3-5 years to live that was like four years ago or something). I mean I got an awesome job this summer and despite getting laid off I've had more time to just do stuff. I'm going to a great school because some of the adminsistration thought that I had potential. I honestly believe that it is because of God that I am where I am right now typing this statement

[Protogod]

yeah, I mean allot of stuff with my mum and her cancer its actually quite amazing that shes been doing as well as she has been doing (the doctors only gave her 3-5 years to live that was like four years ago or something).

So its not a coincidence that your mom lasted 4 years after the doctors gave her 5 years?

[Skullflower]

Damn, I knew that was gonna happen.

[TheListener]

So its not a coincidence that your mom lasted 4 years after the doctors gave her 5 years?

Protogod, it's one thing denying the existence of a God. That's more than fine, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and points of view. But the way you vehemently attempt to shatter people's faiths is not understandable in the least bit. Why do you feel it's your own duty to put people's beliefs into question, to attempt to explain irrational things rationally? Religion is not rational, it simply isn't, and therefore your logical vivisection of it is simply ineffective and a waste of breath.

[Protogod]

Protogod, it's one thing denying the existence of a God. That's more than fine, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and points of view. But the way you vehemently attempt to shatter people's faiths is not understandable in the least bit. Why do you feel it's your own duty to put people's beliefs into question, to attempt to explain irrational things rationally? Religion is not rational, it simply isn't, and therefore your logical vivisection of it is simply ineffective and a waste of breath.
We arent talking about non-euclidian geometry, we're talking about some simple universal truths, which will end up being rational, as pretty much all natural things are.

If I have shattered his faith by pointing out that the doctors have thusfar been right (which he seems quite astounded at) then good riddance. A faith so easily shaken by mere fact is best left behind, for that which wavers in the face of fact cannot be truth.

Religion may be irrational, but peoples willingness to blindly follow it, and leave behind logic in favor of it can easily be explained, despite it's startling indications with regards to our ability to act rationally (which we are FULLY capable of doing.)

[WTyger]

yeah, I mean allot of stuff with my mum and her cancer its actually quite amazing that shes been doing as well as she has been doing (the doctors only gave her 3-5 years to live that was like four years ago or something). I mean I got an awesome job this summer and despite getting laid off I've had more time to just do stuff. I'm going to a great school because some of the adminsistration thought that I had potential. I honestly believe that it is because of God that I am where I am right now typing this statement

Fear not Gunmock, the way I view it is this, If you were to remove
the God of Heaven (The 'Living' God) than what remains....? In my view
only Death (the 2 extreme opposites), is the Answer to the question.
For in all of Life that I have experienced these are the Only two True
states of 'Being'. Just like a computer either it is True or it is False, there is
NO inbetween, and so it is with ALL 'Living Beings'. I have read several
different Bibles and have, after realizing their slight 'differences', come
to the conclusion that it is best to disreguard what was written by
the hands of Men and focus on the Voice of the Son, when he said
on to those that refused to follow him......

'You are already Dead to Me.......'
'Can the Dead of 1000 years ago Speak or Understand or Hear or See the things that the living Know Today....?';)

[Protogod]

Ah, but to say that there are only two states of living undermines the very foundation of the big 3 monotheistic religions.

Peoples "souls" whether damned or saved, are in a state of undeath after their bodies die and decay.

And although it is true that there is no life without death and that 2 opposites philosophy, I find it highly dubious that you would attempt to use that as evidence for the existance of "God."

[TheListener]

We arent talking about non-euclidian geometry, we're talking about some simple universal truths, which will end up being rational, as pretty much all natural things are.

If I have shattered his faith by pointing out that the doctors have thusfar been right (which he seems quite astounded at) then good riddance. A faith so easily shaken by mere fact is best left behind, for that which wavers in the face of fact cannot be truth.

Religion may be irrational, but peoples willingness to blindly follow it, and leave behind logic in favor of it can easily be explained, despite it's startling indications with regards to our ability to act rationally (which we are FULLY capable of doing.)

Blindly follow it? Who are you? Really, have you proven that God does not exist? Has anyone? No, and no. Why do you act as if it's a universal truth? Why feign ultimate knowledge when you know about as much as your philosophy teacher has deemed necessary to teach you?

It's like a priest attempting to convince a gay person that he's not biologically programmed to be attracted to the same sex. It's simply not going to work. I wasn't making reference to your observation about Gunmonk's mother, but your demeanor regarding religion on the boards in general. Who are you to preach to everyone that what they believe is false? Unless you provide hard facts and not the gap-ridden black hole theory, then consider yourself wrong.

[ClintonM]

Actually Protogod, I do understand some evolution. Learn your own belief... According to the Theory of Evolution and Darwinism, people DID evolve from a species similar to a squirrel that lived in trees, then we slowly evolved into beings like primates and then we became our present day Homosapiens over a period of an undetermined (extremely long) amount of time.

So yeah... Learn your own belief, kthx ;).

There are also many holes in Evolution that makes the whole thing invalid because it is incomplete. However, The Bible IS one of the original "History Books" that still exists today. There are many accounts that events mentioned did indeed happen, the Flood included.

Through Geneology the different races were formed from decayed Genes after the separation at the Tower Of Babble, which was after the Flood and therefore ruined one of the layers of something similar to the Ozone Layer which allowed humans to age faster.

Science and Religion do indeed go side-by-side, the Bible doesn't say HOW God created the Earth, so something similar to the Big Bang Theory is a possibility ;).

By the way protogod, who do you think you have to thank for the invention of years, weeks, and days? ;). 7 Sounds like an oddly familiar topic...

[Protogod]

Blindly follow it? Who are you? Really, have you proven that God does not exist? Has anyone? No, and no. Why do you act as if it's a universal truth? Why feign ultimate knowledge when you know about as much as your philosophy teacher has deemed necessary to teach you?

It's like a priest attempting to convince a gay person that he's not biologically programmed to be attracted to the same sex. It's simply not going to work. I wasn't making reference to your observation about Gunmonk's mother, but your demeanor regarding religion on the boards in general. Who are you to preach to everyone that what they believe is false? Unless you provide hard facts and not the gap-ridden black hole theory, then consider yourself wrong.

And who are you to condone this baseless Invisible-magic-man argument? At least science has backed up its arguments with numerous leaps and bounds in out planets history. I see no such hard facts related to creationism or "God."

The only argument there is NOT to wholly discredit the theist belief is that the very nature of their belief is that it is unproveable. That very mindset is what renders all our facts and reasoning immaterial.

You can go ahead and live in your dream world, shielded in your bubble of reasonable doubt, but the evidence will always be on the other side. Although the non-existance of "God" has not been proven, you cannot say that creationism even compares to evolution when faced with the evidence.

Religion wavers when faced with discovery, and it remains because of it's archaic insistence on (yes) blind faith.

[Skullflower]

These threads are always like this. Besides, the Big Bang was originally a Catholic idea.

[Protogod]

Actually Protogod, I do understand some evolution. Learn your own belief... According to the Theory of Evolution and Darwinism, people DID evolve from a species similar to a squirrel that lived in trees, then we slowly evolved into beings like primates and then we became our present day Homosapiens over a period of an undetermined (extremely long) amount of time.
So yeah... Learn your own belief, kthx .
for all your ego and "kthx" your argument boils down to this. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem-tu-quoque.html)

The basis of your post is that I am somehow inept on the topic of evolution, which while also wrong, is moreover irrelevant. WE came from something remotely similar to squirrels, which you brought out of context and scoffed at. Hardly an argument at all.

There are also many holes in Evolution that makes the whole thing invalid because it is incomplete. two things. First off, point out some of those holes in evolutionary theory. Second of all, ANOTHER LINK! (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/composition.html) Simply because some parts of it have not been proved yet does not make 100% of every advancement irrelevant. However, The Bible IS one of the original "History Books" that still exists today. There are many accounts that events mentioned did indeed happen, the Flood included. It was written at a time when these places were old and people knew well of them. Much like the King Arthur mythos, it has -some- truths to it. However, I am most certianly sure that england at no point had dragons and such.

Relating a myth to a fact does not grant the myth infallability.

Through Geneology the different races were formed from decayed Genes after the separation at the Tower Of Babble, which was after the Flood and therefore ruined one of the layers of something similar to the Ozone Layer which allowed humans to age faster.
You presume this is true, still without explaination. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html)
By the way protogod, who do you think you have to thank for the invention of years, weeks, and days? 7 Sounds like an oddly familiar topic...
Yes, because everyone knows that the 7 day week system existed for all time, and is the most accurate measure of time. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/questionable-cause.html)

You forget that the mayan calendar (http://webexhibits.org/calendars/calendar-mayan.html) didn't have 7 days, and was accurate to the point of not-needing a leap year. They used Tzolkin's, which were slightly less than 2 weeks.

[Neo]

Actually Protogod, I do understand some evolution. Learn your own belief... According to the Theory of Evolution and Darwinism, people DID evolve from a species similar to a squirrel that lived in trees, then we slowly evolved into beings like primates and then we became our present day Homosapiens over a period of an undetermined (extremely long) amount of time.

So yeah... Learn your own belief, kthx ;).

There are also many holes in Evolution that makes the whole thing invalid because it is incomplete. However, The Bible IS one of the original "History Books" that still exists today. There are many accounts that events mentioned did indeed happen, the Flood included.

Through Geneology the different races were formed from decayed Genes after the separation at the Tower Of Babble, which was after the Flood and therefore ruined one of the layers of something similar to the Ozone Layer which allowed humans to age faster.

Science and Religion do indeed go side-by-side, the Bible doesn't say HOW God created the Earth, so something similar to the Big Bang Theory is a possibility ;).

By the way protogod, who do you think you have to thank for the invention of years, weeks, and days? ;). 7 Sounds like an oddly familiar topic...
The Bible is not fact.

Again; The Bible is not fact.

Has that sunk in yet? No? Here, again then; The Bible is not fact.

Holes in the theory of evolution? Such as? Care to explain them?

Would you like to discuss all the holes and inconsistencies in the Bible? The hypocrisy that is put forward in the Bible itself?

Do you realize that the Bible has been changed over time? So much so that it probably resembles little to what it originally said.

You prop up the Bible as some kind of one and true source of all things "factual" about God and your religion, and yet you continue to deny anything of scientific discovery related to this topic. You mention "holes in the theory of evolution" yet you do not post any of these. Are we simply to take your word on these "holes"?

I really dont mean to come off belligerent, but these threads pop up often enough and get on everyone's nerves and end up nothing more then full of trollish flames and other crud.

I would prefer it if you either simply ignore the thread, be civil, or we can just close it now, and avoid unnecessary "hurt feelings" on both sides.

I would also suggest that you not put words into other's posts, or meanings -- you may have your own belief system, but so do others. Many of the people on this forum, believe in different things, and are able to, at the least, peacefully coexist. However it is difficult to maintain peace, when you continually question or denounce someone else's beliefs.

This is not meant to be applied to only one "side" or another -- this goes for all of you. Behave, at the least, please. Or else take the belief discussions elsewhere -- we are, after all, first and foremost a gaming forum.

Besides, we all know it was really the FSM (http://www.venganza.org/)

-Neo

[Kellanved]

lol @ Neo, you just joined in the discussion, and immediately after, pointed out the futility of this discussion.

I'm going to have to back Protogod with some further points: While the theory of evolution is still a 'theory', so are the theories of gravity and relativity. There's something to be said about the words 'proof' and 'evidence' because these get tossed around a lot, when in fact, they mean different things.

Having an experience where you see a light and obscure vision, and receive strange words of wisdom is not proof of God, it's just evidence. Seeing cat tracks in a murder scene is evidence that the cat may be the murderer, not proof. Proof is something that's solid, and mentioned far more often than it's actually encountered, because it must be made of indisputable mathematical logic. Thus we still have no proof of gravity or time dialation, but the evidence for both are so overwhelming that they're pretty much 99.99%+ likely to be right, and thus we can accept them as scientific fact. Given all the evidence of genetics, fossils, etc... the evidence for evolution also makes it virtually a scientific fact. If you disagree, then it's only because you don't know enough about it.

And yes, there are some holes in evolution. There are missing links to theoretical taxonomies, and some combinations of path speculations that discredit others. However the few holes you will find are overwhelmed by the evidence that suggests evolution, and they don't falsify evolution.

Also there's a reason that the bible has been accepted for such a long time (although diverted into hundreds of branches, some drastically different from others) and it's because it supports the most palatable notion that man can adopt for themselves: That there is a cosmic system of justice in the world, and everyone will get what they deserve after they die. Of course, almost everybody also believes that they, themselves deserve the best.

I have nothing against theists, but I must say that it is, indeed a blind faith, and the only merit behind it is hope and desire, not logic. The reasoning behind religion is just the reasoning of picking out the best possible scenario out of a situation. My friend does it all the time - a girl on the bus flashes him a glance and he concludes that it's because she wants him. Protogod probably has a link for that.

[ClintonM]

Religion wavers when faced with discovery, and it remains because of it's archaic insistence on (yes) blind faith.

So what you're saying is that seeing is believing? ;). I guess we all have a blind faith in Oxygen as well, we know it's there but we can't really see it.

And also Neo, there has been proof of the events by your fellow Scientists that the Bible is actually a History Book, they found ruins of some of the lost cities where the Bible said there was. Is it truly unthinkable that a child could kill a "giant"? Maybe unthinkable that something our own scientists are "OMFG!" about (ironic, considering a lot of them dont' even believe in) Global Warming causing changes in the climate, FLOODING?

It's kinda ironic, I was just thinking about it today before this thread happened. People say "ITS NOT TRUE ITS NOT TRUE" whenever there's proof that the Bible isn't off from fact.

Holes in Evolution, there are "missing links" found in a lot of species, I'm sure I could look them up but It'll probably come back on the Discovery or History Channel again sometime -.-...

[Protogod]

Protogod probably has a link for that.
As you wish. (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-emotion.html)

[Protogod]

So what you're saying is that seeing is believing? I guess we all have a blind faith in Oxygen as well...
I couldn't decide if you were purposefully trying to distort my position (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) or if your example (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html) was just flawed.

Long story short; even though oxygen is invisible, it has clear and everpresent effects on our world. We can use, capture, encapsulate, study, observe, and all-in-all understand oxygen. This is all quite opposite of the "God" topic in that there is simply no possible way to prove or disprove the notion.

[TheListener]

The only argument there is NOT to wholly discredit the theist belief is that the very nature of their belief is that it is unproveable. That very mindset is what renders all our facts and reasoning immaterial.

...and that precisely is the root of the problem, Protogod. Who does the burden of truth fall upon? Whose job is it to prove the other camp wrong? I say it's those who do not believe. Your demeaning and criticising won't help you, calling it a 'dreamworld' doesn't convince anyone.

Fun fact: With the almost infinite number of possible variables which would make life on this planet completely impossible, life in this galaxy, for this galaxy to even exist; the existance of ourselves and gravity and osmosis and relativity and the way cells divide so perfectly, is a chance of 1 in 10^31.

[Protogod]

Whose job is it to prove the other camp wrong? I say it's those who do not believe. So the people who have not made huge leaps of faith are the ones who need to prove their stance? There is no proof, you know why? Because it doesn't exist. I believe that my invisible monkey Bobo is tapdancing in the whitehouse. Prove that he is not. Afterall, its the people in disbelief who must prove their position. Until then, Bobo awaits your reply.

Fun fact: With the almost infinite number of possible variables which would make life on this planet completely impossible, life in this galaxy, for this galaxy to even exist; the existance of ourselves and gravity and osmosis and relativity and the way cells divide so perfectly, is a chance of 1 in 10^31.

Given the infinite nature of time and space, it seems that there could be unlimited potential for this to have happened. For all we know every other possibility could have run its course TWICE before we showed up. This exact world could have come and gone googles of years ago, with the exact same argument that the odds are bad.

Odds only matter in a confined system, but considering what an infinity is, I think it's safe to say it's evidence even if the odds were 10^99999999.

[Skullflower]

the Bible is actually a History Book, they found ruins of some of the lost cities where the Bible said there was.

They have found the ruins of Sodom and Gomorrah.
They've found Jericho.
The Gibeon Pool.
The Pool Of Siloam.
Hezekiah's Tunnels.

[Neo]

So what you're saying is that seeing is believing? ;). I guess we all have a blind faith in Oxygen as well, we know it's there but we can't really see it.

And also Neo, there has been proof of the events by your fellow Scientists that the Bible is actually a History Book, they found ruins of some of the lost cities where the Bible said there was.
Those would be called archaeologists, and there are places from other other 'holy documents' as well. It means little. Other documents that date back during the Bible's creation and stuff mention other areas that we know of. "OH NO THAT PLACE IN THAT BOOK IS REAL SO THE WHOLE BOOK MUST BE REAL?" ... gimme a break.

Is it truly unthinkable that a child could kill a "giant"?
Considering that giants have never existed as they have in mythology, or if they have, evidence put forward is quickly struck down when it contradicts the bible. A child cold kill anything given a rock and sufficient force behind it.

Maybe unthinkable that something our own scientists are "OMFG!" about (ironic, considering a lot of them dont' even believe in) Global Warming causing changes in the climate, FLOODING?
There is historical proof that there was major flooding in regions where the Bible is believed to be based around, however, there is little evidence to support a total, global flood. Unless you are putting forth that a society existed back then that cause pollution to the scale we have today which is messing with the polar ice caps.

It's kinda ironic, I was just thinking about it today before this thread happened. People say "ITS NOT TRUE ITS NOT TRUE" whenever there's proof that the Bible isn't off from fact.
There are many things in the bible that are hypocritical, or simply not true. God is said to be all loving, and all forgiving, yet he smites those that don't follow him?

Holes in Evolution, there are "missing links" found in a lot of species, I'm sure I could look them up but It'll probably come back on the Discovery or History Channel again sometime -.-...
That does not further your discussion in anyway. You offer no proof, at all.

Would you honestly like to discuss the Bible itself?

GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn't created until the fourth day.

GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.

GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.

GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)

GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)

GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as "the Lord" (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.

GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.

GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.

GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.

GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.

GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) "I called to the Lord; ... he heard my voice; ... The earth trembled and quaked, ... because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it."
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. "... who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him."
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

Taken from the much larger list located here (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html).

And if you do not stop assuming my beliefs I will simply start deleting your posts. You know nothing of my beliefs, and I rather resent the way you post things like "your scientests" -- what the hell does that mean?

Science is based on undeniable fact, things that can be tested -- and proven. Many things you take for granted came about because of scientific advancement. You are free to believe what you want, but sitting there acting like the Bible is the end all, know all, factual book you claim it to be is just wrong.

Would it surprise you to know I've studied the bible on occasion? I've even read it, and researched Christianity. Can you say the same? Do you question your beliefs?

PC was the only one to give me a plausible answer for this question I posed in an earlier thread, though very few besides her have offered anything of true substance:

If your God is all-loving, and all-caring, and all-forgiving, then why does he punish anyone? Are you telling me that if I lead a morally just life, help others, etc... that because I didn't "accept" Jesus as my Savior/Lord then I'm going to hell because of it?

I've mentioned this before, but if this God does not judge me based on my actions, rather on my words, then I refuse to follow him at all. My actions should speak for themselves.

I don't allow others to tell me what to believe, I don't look down on a group of people because I don't agree with their lifestyle.

The truth is that you do not know enough about your own religion, or topics such as evolution to truly debate this topic.

And let's not even bring up the vulger and disgusting stuff (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/vulgar.html) in the bible either.

-Neo

[ClintonM]

And let's not even bring up the vulger and disgusting stuff (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/vulgar.html) in the bible either.


I read nothing that was that disgusting in that whole link, the Bible merely points out the evils that exist, even TO THIS DAY... Inbreeding, chopping people up, etc. is commonplace nowadays as it was back then. This just FURTHERS MY proof that the Bible is a History Book, thanks for furthering my point :). This also proves that all life is in a cycle.

Also, I never said you didn't read the Bible. Whether you read/studied the Bible or not does not make you a Christian.

The reason for the smiting of people is simple, they've allowed Satan to work through them. Considering you play StarCraft, I'm sure "macroing" people wouldn't be THAT hard by someone who managed to turn some of God's own angels against him...

Spiritual Warfare is constantly going on in every situation, that is not arguable, it is fact. It is even going on in this topic, obviously.

It's kinda "coincidental" that anything can be answered through the Bible, no? :P

[LinkTheGameFreak]

No, I don't.

I don't feel that any higher power with infinite wisdom would punish people after Adam and Eve and continue to punish them for something that some stupid naked people did. God would have to be more forgiving than that for God to be who he says he is. Think about this logically for a moment - Adam and Eve eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and for choosing to disobey god they are banished and told to never return from a land of sorrows and heartbreak and pain and misery simply for (like a small child who does not want to be scolded for doing something wrong) telling a lie to save their hides. In this case god is justified for sending them out but to punish all of humanity afterwards for eating from the tree is ignorant when he could have created other people to put in the garden afterwards (sidebar: I personally think that it might have been an analogy; i.e. "eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" = "experienced worldly things")

Also, another important thing to note is that for people to take the Bible as the word of god, not tampered with and perfect in its creation are simply misled and uninformed. For example: The King James version is an edited volume commissioned by King James to exise certain parts that do not look favorably upon royalty or things that did not mesh well with how he ran his kingdom. For the uninitiated, the Council of Nissia met in 325 AD to discuss what should be put in and what should be removed from the "authorized version" of the Bible and for that reason there I tend to doubt the veracity of what the Bible says.

Here are some of the "Apocryphal" books of the Bible:
Epistle of Barnabas
First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
Second Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians
The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Book of Enoch
Gospel of Judas (130-170 AD)
Gospel of Thomas (140-170 AD)
The Psalms of Solomon
The Odes of Solomon
The Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs
Second Baruch
Third Baruch
The Books of Adam and Eve
The Acts of Phillip

1 Esdras (150-100 BC)
2 Esdras (100 AD)
Tobit (200 BC)
Judith (150 BC)
Additions to Esther (140-130 BC)
Wisdom of Solomon (30 BC)
Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) (132 BC)
Barach (150-50 BC)
Letter of Jeremiah (300-100 BC)
Susanna (200-0 BC)
Bel and the Dragon (100 BC)
Additions to Daniel (Prayer of Azariah (200-0 BC)
Prayer of Manassesh (100-0 BC)
1 Maccabees (110 BC)
2 Maccabees (110-170 BC)

That's 30 books right there, 30 books I'm sure you've never heard of, that were never mentioned in church or are ever discussed in bible study.

The Bible, as far as I can remember, used to have a quote either near the front or the end that said something to the effect of "The bible is the word of god which no man can add or subtract from" yet we can easily find that we as men have fucked with them thar words.

In a look back at ancient religions, the similarities between stories seem to be more than coincidential - although I'm less than qualified to tell you for myself, a few examples I can bring to mind are stories in the bible that are very very similar to Mesopotamian tales writeen at least 1000 years before the oldest book of the bible & the similarities between Horus and Jesus (http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm)

I personally hate when someone says that going to a liberal arts college has fucked me up when I have always thought that being taught that the same god who forced his grandest creation into a life of pain and misery without giving them a second chance is the same god that sent his own son to be slaughtered & tortured for our salvation is what fucked me up.

"At the outset God made this into a life-and-death situation. God staked the entire future of mankind on this one event. We lost. The moment that Adam and Eve ate that fruit, wheels were set in motion that would ultimately result in the doom of mankind. Without some kind of intervention from God we would all be damned. God does promise to intervene, but it's like building a nuclear bomb and setting it to go off in a large city at 12:00. Then, when all of the people of the city come to you for mercy, you disarm it for them. Does that make you a hero for disarming it or a lunatic for building it in the first place? The whole thing was orchestrated to make us feel dependent upon God. That says a lot about God's character." ~ anonymous internet guy

[Neo]

I read nothing that was that disgusting in that whole link, the Bible merely points out the evils that exist, even TO THIS DAY... Inbreeding, chopping people up, etc. is commonplace nowadays as it was back then. This just FURTHERS MY proof that the Bible is a History Book, thanks for furthering my point :). This also proves that all life is in a cycle.

You are deluded: "They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire."

"The Lord is going to punish David for his sin by taking his wives and causing his neighbor to have sexual relations with them in public."

Spare me.

Also, I never said you didn't read the Bible. Whether you read/studied the Bible or not does not make you a Christian.

The reason for the smiting of people is simple, they've allowed Satan to work through them. Considering you play StarCraft, I'm sure "macroing" people wouldn't be THAT hard by someone who managed to turn some of God's own angels against him...

Spiritual Warfare is constantly going on in every situation, that is not arguable, it is fact. It is even going on in this topic, obviously.

It's kinda "coincidental" that anything can be answered through the Bible, no? :P

You are deluded.

This thread is over.

-Neo