Official Poll #4: What Do You Think About the New DT?

[Protogod]

In lieu of Starcraft2.com's latest unit-update, I've made this the "DT Poll." Basically, what do you think of the new DT graphic?

As for our last Poll, we had quite a surprise. Seemingly overnight a 4-4-4-4 tie turned into an 11-5-4-6 Upset Victory for the OLD SUPER-MOTHERSHIP!

I think thewy nerfed it too much. It should still have an air attack, give the cloaking field back to the Stasis Orb, and give a area-of-effect damage yamato-like effect for black hole. I can live without time shield, but black hole was a cool concept, and could esaily be nerfed.
I say they should keep the black hole, but make it a targeted ability. You click one unit which is swallowed by the hole, other units around it within the AoE are slowed down substantially by the gravitic effects. Once the hole closes, these other units would return to their normal speed.
The timebomb can go IMO. It wasn't really more than an extra shield.
Planetcracker looks fine, maybe a bit too much UFO feel there, but it's ok.
It's too expencive to be a support caster, so it will need both ATS and ATA weapons.
I think that the 'ship should be scrapped simply because I don't like it (or the thor) from a backstory point of view.
If it's a dark templar construct than it sort of makes sense, but then why would it be an offensive ship at all? The DT just drifted around the galaxy, secretly upholding the glory of Aiur and partroling their wayward fleets of transports with small, fast, fighters. A mothership doesn't really fit into that theme, you would think that now that Aiur is ruined and the protoss fleets broken and the whole race homeless, they would all end up drifting like the DT and need more corsair-like stuff, not giant motherships.
If it's a khalai 'toss construct, then it doesn't make sense either. Since all of the khalai manufacturing plants and stuff are out of commision for SC2 the things they would use would be upgraded revived versions of weapons and vessals and things they had before the events of SC1, like the Colossi from the Aeon of Strife.

So, I hate the mothership because it's a stupid thing to have backstory-wise.
Honestly what kind of mothership has no anti air? Did they float through space battles? To cloak not existant ground troops? Hell no! If they're going to make a mothership do it right. Change back into a one unit wonder or scrap it. Jump over the cliff to the other side or stay. Don't do something in the middle.
The mothership got nerfed way too fucking much. Give it's AA attack back and make the black hole somewhat less effective than what it was. And timebomb was a neat concept, besides i like how the missiles fall after the timebomb shield dissapears. Planet cracker is pretty cool, and I guess they should keep the cloaking field on the Mothership because I have no clue what unit they would give the cloaking field to instead.
I voted for a scrapping. The reason:
First, I never liked it when I saw it in the original gameplay vid. I knew black hole was way too cheap and that it would be nerfed (in fact even if it took out only one unit it would still be too cheap since you can take out a carrier/bc). Also I never liked the idea of a one-only unit. It's not that it would be too cheap (it probably wouldn't be, and it'd be one of those things you almost never get; the heroes in wc were another story because they were a value that was way greater for its cost than any other unit which probably wouldn't be the case with the MS) and the idea of having a single unit that can wreack havoc and survive is kind of silly since the enemy may have thrown a lot at it, lost it all, while the MS owner lost nothing.

Then they turned it into another arbiter, but with planet cracker instead of recall/stasis. First off, I really don't care if they take away its AA... or its entire attack for that matter (I think the original MS shouldn't have had an attack) since the arbiter's attack was next to useless anyways (explosive, half a goon's damage, probably about doulbe a goon's cooldown). Besides, there shouldn't be a single unit that is the uber-unit for being all-purpose, otherwise what's the point of getting anything else?

[TitanWing]

Attack of the quotes!

I like pretty much everything about the new DT. Same purpose, same uses, same unit, only with a revamped appearance.

[ZeratulStukov]

i like the new one but i think it should have warp blade instead.

[Faiien]

i guess iam gona go with titan on this one although i need a little time to adjust what could be better than invisible units with capes lol

[DarkMirror]

Best unit ever, IMO. Its so cool. reaperlike.
Scyth FTW!

[3Vee]

I like the new, but miss the ninjas. That, and the in-game look is a little odd. Will wait and see.

[Skullflower]

The new DT is way too bulky. And I don't need to see some annoying blue aura surrounding my unit.

[pytum]

i dont like its weapon, maybe its better to have a long warp blade instead of a double axe...

[Protogod]

Although I personally voted for the spoof option (boobs, ftw) I do believe that the original design was better. It was more original and better suited for what they do.

The new images are of huge bulky armored warriors- which really isnt what the DT's are. They are stealthy, sleek, and efficient.

[Skullflower]

Exactly. The new look doesn't fit the purpose of the DT.

[BludSyko]

I agree that the old version is better. I think the new version is a pretty cool design, but it just doesn't look like a DT. I like the original warp blade better.

[Borgorb]

old version attack was better
single psi blade kinda made them dark zealots
this scythe thingy looks too much like it gets in the way of getting the job done properly

[ecyor0]

Does anyone know a link where I can find the new DT concept?

[Faiien]

its on the official sc2 website

http://www.starcraft2.com/features/protoss/index.xml?tab=darktemplar

[BlackDefiler]

I like the new DT concept. The double scythe looks cool, although I think the skulls on the armor don't really fit the DT feel. They are dark warrior-monks, not angels of death. They should get a much wider cape and that ninja mask like they had in sc1.

[apostolos]

It's current design is badass.btw the DT page for sc2 com was updated with a new action shot(Much better than the previous one)

[IceSkirt]

Eh, the new one is good but the old was one was better

[ecyor0]

OK, checked it out now.

Love the new look (just needs a little less armor)
Those scythes still fit the DT image - their not overly bulky, and they wield them with ninja-like dexterity

[pytum]

blizzard is being slow updating the sc2.com... they must hurry to leak some info about the zerg...

and about the dt... well i prefer the older concept that the new one... although that doesnt mean that has to be the old one, just redesign the concept, i dislike the weapon and the mask that has

[Basan]

Voted "other" and most of my reasoning for it was already explained form this point onwards (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?p=512152#post512152). ;)

I agree with their new glow because it eases players lives when wanting to find'em.
Also agree with the mask removal concept because since they now live with their HT brethren they no longer need the identity concealment as they did before. Although their new fanged, toothy looks doesn't quite fit the picture. If the Protoss don't even have mouths why the head piece then? :P
Another thing I don't agree with is their whole new looks revamp. Armour? For what? Their roles relies in stealth, not in bulkiness. Plus it bearing skulls is a major no-no. :mad:
And they also lost their most iconic item, the warp blades since now they have scythes. :lame: Couple that with their newly found armour and uglier face and you got the 'Tossie grim reaper. *Sigh*

In sum, I prefer the DT looks from Project Revo' (http://www.wc3campaigns.net/revolution/) a lot better. :tup:

[SgtHK]

Yeah, the arm-mounted Warp Blades looked cooler to my eyes :/

[Kellanved]

blizzard is being slow updating the sc2.com... they must hurry to leak some info about the zerg...

I think Blizzard learned their lesson in that regard. Having leaked info on terrans made people far more disdainful of those units than had they been originally introduced in a gameplay-like fashion as the protoss units were. We even see that as the videos are being released, people are warming up to the terrans more, whereas before more than half were bashing the entire terran innovations. We're probably just going to have to wait for a whole new video. :(

As for the DT; I'm not one to nitpick too much in small aesthetic details. I think the scythe looks cool, even though impractical, and tbh, I don't even recall that much detail about the old DT. Thus I vote my approval.

[Kawagata]

It's way too bulky. The concept art makes them look like they are encrusted with stone. Being a very dark place for a long time shouldn't have THAT effect on you. I'm happy the cloak in the wind is still there. The new scythe totally violated everything a DT stood for; stealth. I'm not saying that they should get a pocket knife instead but the warp blade was small, effective and did it for me. I prefer the old design which was much skinnier, less armour and a smaller weapon. The scythe might work if it was alot skinnier.

Protoss should have a unit to wielding a claymore!

[reddbeta]

I love the new design. its nothing better that using the skin of your enemy as armor. A newer weapon makes sense too, after all they had 4 years to make improvements. it makes more sense that an cloth mask. As for the old look, save it for Zeratul

[Basan]

Now that I finally saw it moving on it's page in my FF (still haven't updated it yet :D) I can somewhat relate to it. It doesn't look as bad as I thought it would be from the conceptual art. Not that I dislike it but didn't like that the DT would have that exact looks inside the game. :P

[Protogod]

its nothing better that using the skin of your enemy as armor. no one said the armor was from zerg. The only possible relation is that they said the facemast was possibly a hydralisk jaw, which it is not. A newer weapon makes sense too, after all they had 4 years to make improvements. but a scythe doesnt make any sense. it makes more sense that an cloth mask. err.. no? As for the old look, save it for Zeratul

why would zeratul be any different?

[Ktan]

The new scythe totally violated everything a DT stood for; stealth.

The scythe does nothing to violate and the fact it is double ended allows more vicious strikes. Dark Templar rely on their ability to warp light, not the 'efficiency' of their weapon.

Plus, almost all the Protoss armour is symbolic. Look at the SC 1 Zealots. Also, the much lauded old DT Cloak is a flaw in DT stealth (unless it actually is a stealth cloak, which it isn't). Real ninjas didn't wear cloaks, they wore quite tightly fitted clothes to avoid garments becoming trapped, and that's the kind of thing you wear in stealth: tight clothes with no flamboyant decorations. In this way, the veil was purely symbolic too.

Fine, argue that the old DT was cooler, but it was hardly more efficient. Plus, the sword had a larger blade, which would possibly be easier to see, and the scythe extends the reach of the attack.

Protoss don't always do 'practical', they are a spiritual race, unlike the secular Terrans.

It's a moot point to argue 'efficiency' when all they need to do is bend light.

[reddbeta]

wow...had to rip apart every thing i said? all right i guess ill defend my opinion step by step...

im only guessing considering the zerg like faces on multiple parts im goona take a shot in the dark and say its made from a zerg

I see Zeratul as different because he has been of in space searching for answers why the rest of his men got upgrades. Also thats something i liked from SC is that Kerrigan looked different than her basic unit counterparts. As we have seen from the Single player stuff he is keeping to the old styles including the cloth mask, arm blade and cape

and i still have a hard time thinking that an advanced race such as the protoss wears cloth into battle rather than their golden advanced armor

[Basan]

...
I see Zeratul as different because he has been of in space searching for answers why the rest of his men got upgrades. Also thats something i liked from SC is that Kerrigan looked different than her basic unit counterparts. As we have seen from the Single player stuff he is keeping to the old styles including the cloth mask, arm blade and cape

and i still have a hard time thinking that an advanced race such as the protoss wears cloth into battle rather than their golden advanced armor

Just because the DT's an HT's sides of the 'Toss now live together it just doesn't mean that they had embraced everything the other side had/has. ;)

[Protogod]

im only guessing considering the zerg like faces on multiple parts im goona take a shot in the dark and say its made from a zerg theres one or two skull-looking decorations on it. Hardly means the armor is MADE out of zerg.

I see Zeratul as different because he has been of in space searching for answers why the rest of his men got upgrades. its not like thats a special case for zeratul. Thats what dark templar do. They run off to solitary planets to contemplate the universe. They dont jsut sit at home base abd get upgrades like zealots or whatnot.

and i still have a hard time thinking that an advanced race such as the protoss wears cloth into battle rather than their golden advanced armor
so advanced races automatically have to have heavy, unnecessary, golden armor all the time, now?

[Faiien]

how come you guys all asume that the armor the dts are wearing are heavy? i mean were talking about an advance alien civilization. iam sure they've developed some sort of lightweight armor that the dts are currently wearing

and omg its a tie hurry someone vote for the new look XD

[Protogod]

how come you guys all asume that the armor the dts are wearing are heavy? i mean were talking about an advance alien civilization. iam sure they've developed some sort of lightweight armor that the dts are currently wearing

The point is that it looks bulky, disproportionate, unnecessarily ornate, and just LOOKS burdensome.

[Faiien]

well looks can be deceiving
and iam sure with time we will all learn to live with he new look
i myself preferred the old look but change is good somtimes and i always thought that the dts should look more elite and not like raggedy units

[Kawagata]

Look in terms of equipment, yes equipment and only equipment, small is sexy. Noone goes up to a spy with a giant spycam and say wow that spycam is so big and so sexy!!!
It terms of stealth equipement big=no no.

[TitanWing]

Doesn't make much of a difference when they can't see you at all. ;)

[Kawagata]

Who would like it if the observer cam back with a 12 inch lense? More effiecient? Sure it's invisible but it's never really "invisible". You'd see a giant ass blur over your base.

[DarkMirror]

If your using unit size, then you phail. DTs are still small, and nowhere near 12".

[Kawagata]

If you phailed to get the sarcasm don't ever be in a debate. That scythe is around twice the size of the DT itself.

[BludSyko]

If DTs use bulky armor, wouldn't make sound when they walk, taking away from their stealth?

[Kawagata]

That's why they wore cloth over the mouth in sc2 to prevent breath sounds and sudden change humidity in the air if you got close to a dt.

[TitanWing]

Well, the *kuzjuunt!" sound when the guy dies next to you doesn't really make them any less invisible. :P

[DarkMirror]

Uhmmm.... Toss dont breathe. No mouths, remeber?

[TitanWing]

Uhmmm.... Toss dont breathe. No mouths, remeber?
Well, they do something...

[BludSyko]

Uhmmm.... Toss dont breathe. No mouths, remeber?

Lmao.

Anyways, the point of stealthy assassination is to get close to someone before they notice you, then kill them. With bulky armor, they can hear you before you can get that close. At least, that would make sense =/

[TitanWing]

Well, if you can bend light maybe you bend sound too...

Just a thought. :)

[Protogod]

Well, they do something...
They absorb solar radiation through their skin.
Well, if you can bend light maybe you bend sound too...


Even though it is possible for sound waves to bend, it isnt quite the same princible. Whereas light exists as both a wave and a particle simultaneously, sound is simply a wave.

That dual nature of light gives it several special properties that neither waves nor particles can fully follow.

[Kawagata]

LoL afterall both sound and light are waves. Just maybe.. just maybe..
Hm forgot that protoss are very fond of suppositories. Since proto beat my post by a few seconds i'll post this too. Light has no particles. It's energy. Sound bounces off objects also. Scream in a room and scream outside there's a difference.

[BludSyko]

Light is an electromagnetic wave and sound is a mechanical wave...

They are very different. :P

[TitanWing]

And Protoss can already alter time and light. ;)

[Kawagata]

I never said they were the same. I said they are boh waves. If i told you that rectangles and squares both have 4 corners and 90 degree angles would you say that they are the same? (it goes one way)

[BludSyko]

But they are different, and they can be affected by different things in different ways.

I suppose it may be possible, but I still don't like the armor.

[Protogod]

Although light exists as a wave, it has several unique properties that are mroe relevant to the nature of particles.

The nature of light is so vastly different from anything else, as it is essentially the line between energy and matter.

[BludSyko]

Heh, we go from discussing the new DT look to discussing physics. Lmao.

[Protogod]

Heh, we go from discussing the new DT look to discussing physics. Lmao.

Shh, as long as this is relevant to the debate, I see no reason it should be disallowed.

It is hardly a rational conclusion to say that bending light can also = bending sound, given that we've shown hwo the nature of both forces diverge so profoundly

[Kawagata]

First off it is already impossible to bend light without an entity "insert number" times the mass of our sun and that bends it like 1 degree only.. So there really is no debate. I still don't like the armour also.

[3Vee]

First off it is already impossible to bend light without an entity "insert number" times the mass of our sun and that bends it like 1 degree only.. So there really is no debate. I still don't like the armour also.

0.00000000004000067 is a number...

Anyway, this is a game in a sci-fi setting, so we don't care that Blizzard is assuming that the DT has a psionic capability which can apparently exert forces similar to the gravitational effect of a whole star system. Although, that's pretty rocking amounts of power, when it comes down to it.

Interestingly enough, if it takes a Dark Archon to exert enough power to control even an ordinary mind, consider what that says Blizzard (inadvertently?) hypothesizes about the power of the mind.

[Faiien]

still tied 9-9
between the old look and the new look

like ive stated, just because the armor looks bulky doesn't mean its heavy. iam sure the protoss took in account the weight of the armor that they equipped to their assassins...so the debate of if the armor makes lots of noises and sounds and slows the dt down is irrelevant from my point of view.

on the issue of the scythe...eh, doesnt really matter what weapon their wielding to me as long as their kicking @ss and taking names.

[DarkMirror]

First off it is already impossible to bend light without an entity "insert number" times the mass of our sun and that bends it like 1 degree only.. So there really is no debate. I still don't like the armour also.
Your wrong. Gravity was partly proved bby the fact that someone figured out that planets could bend light around them to some degree.

[Kawagata]

Your wrong. Gravity was partly proved bby the fact that someone figured out that planets could bend light around them to some degree.
um not planets. Humoungus stars. Besides that it's exactly what i posted. Then again anything will bend it but to what degree.

[pytum]

black holes are the answer!!!! return black holes!! lol...

the black hole distorsions time and light, although... is the light the same time??

about the DArk templar... i prefer a redesign, at least change the weapon and the "mask" covering its "face"

do the protoss go to the bathroom to throw the "trash"?

[ecyor0]

Arrrgh, this is the SC2 conclave, not the IR!

Personally, I think the new look is better than the old look, but needs more work. Firstly, the scythe needs to be thinner, and maybe have a bit of an S-curve to it (it is meant to be a 1337 stealth weapon after all)
Armor needs reducing and thinning out, closer to what Zeratul wears in the concept art, but with a bit more substance to it

[Ktan]

If you phailed to get the sarcasm don't ever be in a debate.

Just a well intentioned heads up, using sarcasm in a debate can actually come across as a logical fallacy.

Sushi has a point about lightweight armour. Also, usually, DT operate in a warzone, so a few footsteps are going to be quite hard to hear. Even outside of this, it's a reasonable assertion that Protoss are simply more nimble and thus better at keeping quiet. Looking at their digitigrade legs, they are probably quite fast. You don't hear dogs running as noticeably as you would here a human, probably due to their leg design. I also suspect they have light, almost bird-like bones, but that's merely speculation and I'm not aware of anything canon about it.

Also, many of the accessories the DT carry seem to be quite tightly affixed to the body, unlike the old DT design. The cloth over the mouth is symbolism. They don't 'breathe' and if they were close enough to give off that much of a hint, they should have killed the person by then.

Now, the Physics. Electromagnetic radiation and Electrons moving at a high speed exhibit the properties of waves AND particles, situation dependant. While they act as waves, streams of electrons can be magnetically deflected, a property of particles (which is what they are). However, they also diffract. Only waves were originally thought to do this.

Light exists as a wave, or at least it's commonly accepted. However, photoelectric emission, as discovered by Einstein, proved that light could not possibly ONLY BE a wave. This gave birth to Photons(fundamental particles which, for simplicities sake right now, 'carry' light and other electromagnetic radiation), and fitted in perfectly with Max Plank's 'Black Body' Radiation experiments, which were essentially the starting point of quantum mechanics.

Sound waves are basically caused by the vibrations of atoms in the surrounding area, and these vibrations being carried on. This is why no one can hear you scream in space, but light waves and other radiation still can travle through the vacuum. In fact, denser mediums carry sound better (Beethoven hearing his piano by sticking a pencil in his ear) while light travels worse through optically dense media (IE, refraction, or how light it slowed down as it passes into a denser object. This is why a pencil appears bent when placed in water.)

Sound and light are entirely different, and it would be very hard to alter both using the same technique. Proto basically nailed this a couple of posts ago, but I felt like talking about it too :P

However, I feel that I have explained how DT solve both problems. They sort the sound the old fashioned way: they move quietly. Their armour looks quite rigid and solidly attached, so there is little else to actually make much noise. Perhaps the armour is made of bone because mechanical armour would be too loud. This would also account for the fragility of the Dark Templar compared to their Khali brothers. Meanwhile, they make themselves invisible.

Form what I've read (so this could all be a bit wooly), according to relativity, gravity 'bends' space-time. This bending is most obvious where gravity is very strong: Black Holes, but also occurs around planets. Light follows the curvature of space, it is reasonable to assume. This is why it is often perceived to be going in a straight line, because there is nothing to deviate it, so long as it is going through a constant medium.

Dark Templar have learnt to bend light around themselves. Recently, on EARTH, scientists have been looking into ways to make people invisible. There are a few methods. One involves emitting radiation at an object so that it resonates in such a way as to become invisible. However, thus far, to do this to anything more complex that a crystal of an element would require so much energy as to vaporise the subject.

However, some materials have exhibited an ability to warp light around them without excessive gravity. They aren't perfect, and I believe they are early stages, if past being theoretical, but they show you don't need to be a planet to be bend light.

Perhaps, the DT use their psionic powers to bend light, or perhaps they are actually capable of 'grabbing' photons and displacing them, using their mind, in a similar way to a magnet deflecting an electron beam (which is the reason you should keep magnets away from most types of TV screen)

Further, to go back to the 'noise' issue, if DT are bending light (carried by photons) they are most likely stopping ALL types of EM radiation, gamma, x-rays and infra-red included. This means they cannot be detected by heat, or anything else. Which begs the question, how does a SV detect a Dark Templar?

A reasonable assumption is that Science Vessels, Observers and particularly Overlords have sensitive sound detecting devices. Basically, a whacking great microphone. Thus, though any sound is minimal, it is this sound that allows a DT to be detected.

[Basan]

A reasonable assumption is that Science Vessels, Observers and particularly Overlords have sensitive sound detecting devices. Basically, a whacking great microphone. Thus, though any sound is minimal, it is this sound that allows a DT to be detected.

All very good points, but I think that thye also emit tiny vibrations while they walk. And to me that's how the Spider mines got to'em even though they hadn't any special sensorial device to detect the DT's. Therefore am also assuming that all detection devices go after sound and vibrations alike because they're physically entangled with one another. Movement radar type, I'd say. :)
A concept which also brings this couple of questions:
1st - Will the Radar/Sensor Towers be able to pin point invisible units out of their sight range like they do with the regular uncloaked units?
2nd - How do the ComSat scans work then (provided that a reception microphone in orbit wouldn't be that much feasible, physically speaking?

[Faiien]

:worship:@kthan

one of the ways that i think the obvs or svs or ovies track invisible units is by using sonar. they simply send a high pitch sound that cannot be heard, and use their calculations to determine if the sound is bouncing off anything that can't be seen

[BlackDefiler]

Or they use radars. O.o
Or is that too simple?

[Ktan]

one of the ways that i think the obvs or svs or ovies track invisible units is by using sonar. they simply send a high pitch sound that cannot be heard, and use their calculations to determine if the sound is bouncing off anything that can't be seen

Yes, sonar would work, unless the Dark Templar were able to stop the sonar pulse, which I should imagine would be exceedingly hard given they are already devoting so much attention to being invisible.

Radars work in a similar way to Sonar, so it's actually a case of simplicity being better.

All very good points, but I think that thye also emit tiny vibrations while they walk. And to me that's how the Spider mines got to'em even though they hadn't any special sensorial device to detect the DT's. Therefore am also assuming that all detection devices go after sound and vibrations alike because they're physically entangled with one another. Movement radar type, I'd say. :)

Essentially what I was trying to get at, but elaborated on well. Thanks.

I hadn't thought of Spider Mines either, but it makes a lot of sense.

Of course, for Terran and Zerg units, I suspect Infra-red and other such methods are applicable. It would possibly work on Khali Protoss too, depending on their method of invisibility.

Radar tower would work based on Radar (orly? :angel:). Comsat is a little more difficult, I suppose, but that could also use a sonar style ping, just extended over a longer time period. Usually microwaves are used instead though, for satellites. Maybe a combination of both? We don't actually know if the pulse is caused by a satellite or by the station itself. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Comsat station uses a sonar ping, although I'm sure there would be some problems with that.

Further, the name 'Com-sat' imlipes a satelite beaming images back. Maybe infra-red does work on Dark Templar? Maybe it's too low on the electromagnetic spectrum for the Dark Templar to do anything about it? Perhaps this could also extend to microwaves.

>Maybe it's just a balance issue ;p

I sense a 'Science of StarCraft' thread...

[Protogod]

This poll has run it's course. SC1 model wins 12-11, plus my actual vote (i said boobs but w/e) would have made it 13-11.

New Poll forthcoming.

[Basan]

I thought of the Spider Mines and voilá, the acoustic location (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acoustic_location) concept stroke me. :) Physics at Uni' ftw (didn't like it when at college :P). *Wink, wink*