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Protogod
08-07-2007, 6:26 PM
Alright, well, to kick off this new section, I'm gonna write this analysis of the current terrain in sc2.

Now then, we know that in SC2 units will be much more mobile than ever before. With the phase prism, colossus, stalker, reapers, vikings, nydus worms and everything else we need to watch ourselves.

This will be a very important factor when considering melee terrain. The new mobility rules of the colossus and reaper allow them to not only jump up cliffs, but allows them to cross crevasses that are thin (presumable 1 unit thick)

The biggest problem will be the defense of mains and expos. No longer will a cliffed main be enough to guarantee defense. I expect to see flat mains now, because the only semi-guaranteed protection now comes from wide areas of water. However, there is another option. For those of us who are mappers, I'm sure you may have seen a classing sc1 mapping trick, originally designed to prevent tank drops while denying lower traversability. That would be making cliffs with holes in them, with interlocking webs of lowground and high ground that are only 1 unit thick at any given point.

This prevents units such as the siege tank from landing, but whats more - it is pure cliff without passable terrain. I suspect that such terraining tricks will also prevent reapers and collossi from passing it. Just as wide areas of water are still considered unpassable, it may also be that these cliffs will also be unpassable, due to the lack of flat ground for them to land on.


Either way, both solutions (flat land surrounded by water and holed cliffs) will also have another side effect- they will help you with scouting. In sc1, cliffs around mains would impede your sight radius, meaning you couldnt see drops coming. However in sc2, the passable cliffs mean that you will be forced to use a method such as those stated above. Those will either leave you cliffless or on the high ground granting you a wide area of vision for scouting vikings or phase prisms.

However, thats not all. The high ground will become a more important function than ever. High ground peppered liberally throughout a map allows you to take advantage of a greater sight radius, which will make every inch of cliff a point of interest, given the changing nature of unit mobility.

As such, maps that were previously called Terran imbalanced may now become wholly acceptable due to the necessity of cliffs.

However these are simply my thoughts and speculation on the subject and I am interested in hearing your opinions on the matter.

-Discuss-

DarkMirror
08-07-2007, 6:34 PM
My main thing that renders most of this moot, in my opinion, is that we are not talking about only one level of hight here. Colossi, and I presume reapers, can only jump one level of terrain, not two stacked on each other.

EDIT: Sorry, missed you mentioning that. I still think that it wont give such a hguge advantage, cause its not really that different.

Protogod
08-07-2007, 6:36 PM
well, thusfar, we have only seen 2 real levels of terrain still: higher cliffs and lower ground. Then theres the deep drops into water.

So from what I've seen, we still only have 2 height levels. Regardless, I hope you are right, because multiple layers of height would be much more interesting.

DarkMirror
08-07-2007, 6:37 PM
Actually, If you look at the collosus screenies they have temple stacked on temple.

So there.
And its 3-D, and Warcrap III had that feature.

Protogod
08-07-2007, 6:38 PM
Actually, If you look at the collosus screenies they have temple stacked on temple. I'll look again. Musta missed that.

And its 3-D, and Warcrap III had that feature.


So we'll see.

SilverCrusader
08-07-2007, 9:19 PM
enless mineral fields could always do the trick.

Protogod
08-07-2007, 9:27 PM
enless mineral fields could always do the trick.

in a fastest map...

Fiendwurm
08-08-2007, 10:38 AM
one thing that has not been stated here is that if each race had the same amount of units that could negate impassible terrain. The reavers would be able to launch the scarabs up/down cliffs making them as stronge/usefull as a tank. then they either give the guardian splash damage or creat a new unit.(my guess a 4 legged slow moving thing with a spore colony mounted on its back that attacks ground.)

Protogod
08-08-2007, 2:53 PM
The reavers would be able to launch the scarabs up/down cliffs making them as stronge/usefull as a tank. aside from the fact that we believe reavers to be canned, scarabs dont go up/down terrain, so either link me to something that says otherwise or this is kinda a pointless debate. (my guess a 4 legged slow moving thing with a spore colony mounted on its back that attacks ground.)

What...The...Fuck

Thedutchjelle
08-08-2007, 3:38 PM
(my guess a 4 legged slow moving thing with a spore colony mounted on its back that attacks ground.)

Points for creativity here and a high WTF-factor.

Protogod
08-08-2007, 3:40 PM
Points for creativity here and a high WTF-factor.
KK, on-topic time now, dutch.

SilverCrusader
08-08-2007, 4:29 PM
I think that if you can't defend your base against those assaults and need a protective cradle than you're unwilling to accept StarCraft at its full potential, just placing a few defensive structures will do.

Protogod
08-08-2007, 4:31 PM
I think that if you can't defend your base against those assaults and need a protective cradle than you're unwilling to accept StarCraft at its full potential

Well, look at the facts. In sc1 we have protective mains. I wouldnt ever approve a melee map without one.

Thats just how it is, an dto make such a drastic change in sc2 would completely change gameplay. It wouldnt even be starcraft without mains & naturals.

SilverCrusader
08-09-2007, 12:35 PM
You especially want to make maps very risky for things such as yellow minerals, having at least 2 openings to them will make people think twice about taking them.

TitanWing
08-09-2007, 1:59 PM
A nice little mix of yellow and blue is something I see myself doing on mineral only expos now.

Sento
08-16-2007, 3:25 PM
A nice little mix of yellow and blue is something I see myself doing on mineral only expos now.

hmm, a way you could extend that would be to have the yellow surrounded by blue so that you have to mine the blue before you can reach the yellow

but the new mobility things will definately change strategy.. people will be finding new ways to kick my butt online, lol

TitanWing
08-16-2007, 5:20 PM
hmm, a way you could extend that would be to have the yellow surrounded by blue so that you have to mine the blue before you can reach the yellow
I don't make money maps.

Thedutchjelle
08-17-2007, 4:18 AM
Ok so how about this. MAYBE blizzard will include some doodadd or terrain thingey that will make the cliffs unpassable.
Just an idea >_>

Anyway, I'm not sure about those yellow minies, putting them in mains can give everybody a quick start, putting them in expoes will make everybody scramble to the expoes (just an general example here).

Maybe you make cliffs two levels high , like, instead of going from LOW to MID, you go from LOW to HIGH right away. Maybe reapers and shit can't go up such high cliffs?

Protogod
08-17-2007, 9:47 AM
Anyway, I'm not sure about those yellow minies, putting them in mains can give everybody a quick start, putting them in expoes will make everybody scramble to the expoes (just an general example here).
putting yellow mins at a natural would be huge imba for Z, since they FE in every mu.

TitanWing
08-17-2007, 11:49 AM
In SC1.... ;)

Things might be different.

Basan
08-17-2007, 1:58 PM
Heh, in WC3-TFT we have pathing blockable items that we can use to make certain areas unreachable. I trust that SC2 won't be that much different in that regard. :)

reddbeta
08-22-2007, 11:32 AM
well as for defending cliffs its have to be a few strategies, since reapers are easy kills but with a potential high risk cause of there demo packs. Where as the colossi can take more of a hit and still live but take AA damage. TvT, a few siege tanks and bunkers would easily ward them off. for TvP Seige tanks and missile turrets should ward them off