Thor and Terran Balance

[3Vee]

I realize this is a hot topic, and we already tried this subject once... so if this needs a /thread, I'll deal. ;) But we've actually seen the thing now, so I thought I'd toss out a couple observations and see what people think.

First off, having seen the Thor, I like it. I liked the concept to begin with, but wasn't sold on the in-game look to begin with and saw several balance issues. I still do, but they might be fixable.

First problem: it's too fast. This is both movement speed and turn speed: we saw that it could turn almost as fast as the Cobras were circling, which means it's not quite as vulnerable - especially with multiple Thors or other support - as Blizzard tried to indicate.

Second problem: artillery barrage. I couldn't tell much about this ability, actually. It looks like it does too much damage too fast, which could be a game breaker. One redeeming factoid is that it looks like the Thor is stuck and can't attack otherwise, which means that potentially mobile units could get out of the way. I'd still cut down the damage and/or length of the barrage if it were up to me, but it isn't.

Basically: there has to be enough done to nerf it that the Terran game, and especially TvT, isn't a race to Thors. On the other hand, it has several potential weaknesses (Lockdown, assuming it stays, and air). So it might work fine. Thoughts?

[Jaguar_King]

I hardly believe the new Thor balances the whole game. From the looks of it, nothing seems to beat out Protoss mothership or star relic yet. As for the Thor itself, sure it has great long range fire, but how does it perform in close range fights? It has been stated to be pretty slow (the ability to fire from far range leads me to think it uses a different mode, like Siege Mode for tanks. Being very slow to deploy. Either that, or the actual unit's speed, but I believe might very well be both.)

[pytum]

the thor could be balanced making it expensive and 6 of food or maybe 5 or 4.. although i am not sure about a minimum range...

the thor is nice, anyways, in the future blizzard will rebalance the game with the well-known patches :)

[DarkMirror]

Siege tanks have minimum range, give it to Thors.
Or get rid of them. Either way.

[pytum]

well... i would like minimum range instead of getting rid of it

[TitanWing]

I would like to get rid of it instead of give it minimum range.

The idea is still stupid, the unit still looks stupid, the unit is still overpowered. Blizz, just dump it and come up with something a little more creative.

[BlackDefiler]

I'm not sure, but the tanks might not have a minimum range. If you check the new gameplay vid, the tanks deploy right next to the enemy and still can fire.

About Thor, well based on what I've seen, a group of lings could make fast work of it. I's main laser cannons have a very long cooldown, so even if it's strong enough to kill a ling with a single shot, it will still get overpowered quickly and without many casualties from the Zerg side.

[TitanWing]

I'm not sure, but the tanks might not have a minimum range. If you check the new gameplay vid, the tanks deploy right next to the enemy and still can fire.
No...they sill have a minimum range. Otherwise they've taken away the tanks greatest weakness.

[Faiien]

and while were at it y dont we give the zealots range too -_-
/agreed with titan the tanks still have a minimum range

as for the thor, ive said it once and ill say it again its overpowered. thor took out the cc with its special barrage attack in a matter of seconds -_0

[Protogod]

the tanks close to the vikings died, and due to the 3d-ness and our angle of perception, things looked even closer than they actually were.

[Ktan]

If they dump the Thor, they can still put it in the SCUMS editor. Then people who really like it can set up matches with it while people who want a balanced game can just go on melee.

At the moment, though quite cool, the Thor is far too powerful and, given its whole point, to nerf it too much would defeat the object of it existing.

Of course, do we know the cost yet and the build time?

[DarkMirror]

If they didnt cheat with a operation cwal-ish thing, very short.

[Protogod]

If they didnt cheat with a operation cwal-ish thing, very short.

they had to have cheated, it took 10 seconds for it to build.

[TitanWing]

I'd expect it to take roughly the time it takes to build a BC.

[sdbolts11]

BC's build time as of SC1 was 160. SV's was 140. Tank's was 60. I'll give the Thor about a 100.

[BlackDefiler]

I'll give the Thor about a 100.
Thanks :)

[pytum]

BC's build time as of SC1 was 160. SV's was 140. Tank's was 60. I'll give the Thor about a 100.


the battlecruiser's time is 133, the sv is 80 and the tank's time is 50...
the thor could have around 120-100 and 350 mins and 250 gas

[Faiien]

120 sounds okayish to me but i still think it needs to be scrapped

[Kellanved]

The artillery barriage won't take out a CC in one hit, and the battlecruiser's plasma cannons won't irradicate marines at the pace it did. Blizzard was just sort of advertising the uber-ness of these devices.

[TitanWing]

BC's build time as of SC1 was 160. SV's was 140. Tank's was 60. I'll give the Thor about a 100.
I'll give it 100,000. That way I don't have to worry about it if it makes it to the final.

[sdbolts11]

Wait wait wait. Sorry for my mistake. BC was 160 build time. SV was 80. Tank was 50. Pytum, where did you get 133 from for BC?

In that case, like I said before, 100 would be a good number for the Thor :D

[pytum]

although the thor was made instantly by the scv on the terran gp video, just like the mothership...(but that could be a cheat) Pytum, where did you get 133 from for BC?

check staredit... the answer for all your questions :]

[DarkMirror]

Stargate, as said in the tech tree.

[Jaguar_King]

If they dump the Thor, they can still put it in the SCUMS editor. Then people who really like it can set up matches with it while people who want a balanced game can just go on melee.

At the moment, though quite cool, the Thor is far too powerful and, given its whole point, to nerf it too much would defeat the object of it existing.

Of course, do we know the cost yet and the build time?
Can't believe no one saw my actual point. The Thor is not broken, it isn't cheap, it's slooow so why everyone thinks it's broken?

If you think it's broken then better watch the fucking mothership or star relic! Only then you'll learn what really means unbalanced.

[TitanWing]

If you'd been reading the anti-Thor points, you'd realize why it IS imba.

The mothership has been nerfed as well as the Star Relic (now called the Stasis Orb). Time for the Thor to be removed (preferable) or nerfed and redesigned.

[pytum]

what did happen to the mothership?

[TitanWing]

Blackhole and Time Bomb are removed and you and now have more than one of them.

[Protogod]

Blackhole and Time Bomb are removed

black hole wasnt removed. Its just undergoing redesign.

[pytum]

holy shit... well i hope that the planet cracker doesnt be scratch

yeah... black hole had a giant radius of effect!!

[TitanWing]

black hole wasnt removed. Its just undergoing redesign.
Oops...

temporarily* :D

[sdbolts11]

Oh wow now you can build more than one of them? Well, Planet Cracker is still very destructive.

[Ktan]

Can't believe no one saw my actual point. The Thor is not broken, it isn't cheap, it's slooow so why everyone thinks it's broken?

If you think it's broken then better watch the fucking mothership or star relic! Only then you'll learn what really means unbalanced.

And you haven't read many of the posts on this forum, have you?

Pre nerf, the Mothership was limited to ONE.

It's not as slow as suggested. The Cobras, the supposed counter got blitzed in that video.

Added to this, it's totally redundant.

I know it's a video, and the units were probably pimped, but it's the only evidence we've got, so we're using it to debate.

And what was this 'point'? Thor iz not borked! That's not a 'point', fyi, that's a statement that you've not actually backed up with any evidence.

Food for thought. Don't get angry because we're concerned about what we've been shown so far.

[BlackDefiler]

Now that the Mothership gets tuned down, and the Carrier getting in, these two units seem to be getting dangerously close to eachother in role.

[Kellanved]

I agree with Blackdefiler. Now the Protoss have the motherships, carriers, star relics, and warp rays. Four capitol ships. Things are starting to get very redundant.

I say they can just scrap the mothership entirely (or revert it to what it once was, but weaker and without BH), and adjust the remaining air into a better-balanced fleet. (But Phoenix are great as they are now.)

As for the Thor: It's incredibly obvious that they appeared more powerful in the video than they actually will be, in that it showed an artillery barriage taking out a command centre. They're going to make it weaker, obviously, but I think they should just take it out (and they probably will, given that the terrans already have the BC AoE blast and the banshee AoE rockets). Then we could compare a Thor to a siege tank just like an ultralisk to a zergling. Zerglings are better damage for their money, but ultras are better damage soaking for their money. Hopefully it would be the same case for thors:tanks.

[DarkMirror]

actualy, from what I've seen recently, Star relic nis now a ground unit called the Stasis orb.

[TitanWing]

actualy, from what I've seen recently, Star relic nis now a ground unit called the Stasis orb.
With an attack too. I slows enemy units (making up for the loss of the time bomb methinks).

[Protogod]

It slows enemy units

which I love, lol. Great tactical support.

[sdbolts11]

Well for a Protoss player it's great...

[ecyor0]

I say they can just scrap the mothership entirely (or revert it to what it once was, but weaker and without BH), and adjust the remaining air into a better-balanced fleet.

Or, have the mothership as a unique hero unit (Like infested Kerrigan - too owerpowered to be a regular unit, but perfect as an singular hero character)

[Ktan]

Well for a Protoss player it's great...

It's also very characterful.

And I'm sure Terrans will have a decent counter, SD.


Actually, come to think...Star Relics slowing down a Thor or two?

Sexy.

[Kellanved]

Zerg had a spell that did that. I'm guessing that the Stasis orb's attack won't be as effective as ensnare if it can only hit one target at a time, and especially if the orb's attack is as slow as an arbiter's.

[sdbolts11]

Stasis Orb's attack is not its slow down ability. Something different. Also, the Star Relic is out, so stop saying Star Relic :/

[TitanWing]

Stasis Orb's attack is not its slow down ability. Something different.
Link?

[Protogod]

Link
Or else it didnt happen.

[BlackDefiler]

Slowing down a single unit wouldn't count much, so it will possibly have an AoE effect, like the defensive matrix does (in SC2 of course)

[sdbolts11]

Exactly.

[sdbolts11]

HOOOAAHHH! As this topic concerns the Thor, here is something from sc source.
http://www.starcraft-source.com/unit-database/terran/thor.html
Pretty interesting.

[Protogod]

That info seems inaccurate. Blizz said that thor would have anti-air missiles. Also 6 supply seems rather small for such a massive beast.

[DarkMirror]

And it says it has shield. Which it clearly dosent.

[sdbolts11]

ROFL! What was the BC's and Carrier's supply from SC1 after some of the more recent patches? 6! Before it was 8. So Thor supply seems reasonable. However, I don't think SC Source makes this up...

[Protogod]

And it says it has shield. Which it clearly dosent.

Point made, & good job with the killing blow.

[Protogod]

ROFL! What was the BC's and Carrier's supply from SC1 after some of the more recent patches? 6! Before it was 8. So Thor supply seems reasonable. However, I don't think SC Source makes this up...

Given that the thor =/= the BC, I would say it is more than reasonable to assume that htey are wrong, especially Ive seen no such claims from anyone else.

I woudlnt be the least bit surprised if they made most of it up.

[sdbolts11]

Ah we'll have to see...
The shield was the only part that stumped me. And 900 total HP is WAY TOO MUCH!!! IDK, we'll see if SC Source is grabbing that stuff out of their asses.

[TitanWing]

I'm expecting around 400hp and the anti-air has been said to be weak...why not remove it altogether?

[Protogod]

the anti-air has been said to be weak...why not remove it altogether?

I agree that air should and could be a great counter to the thor, but my only issue with it is that such a big expensive unit shouldnt be wholly suceptible to, lets say, 1 scout.

[sdbolts11]

I was thinking what a deadly combo Thors, Cobras/Mech Vikings, and Predators would be :/. Thors are a powerhouse support unit. Throw one in and you got quite a force to be reckoned with.

[Protogod]

I was thinking what a deadly combo Thors, Cobras/Mech Vikings, and Predators would be. Throw one in and you got quite a force to be reckoned with.

If I may..

http://up.kupatrix.com/f/1/slowpoke-pokemon.gif
OMG SLOWPOKE?!

-Neo

[Basan]

The way I see it Thors are a great bunion on Blizz' balancing ass. I'll explain my points to my initial statement, although their movement and design sorta have grown after seeing that BlizzCon video.
Let me also just state that the problems I see here are mainly focused on countering Thors only. If it escalates to group compositions than it might get even fuglier to deal with.

1st - Thors weren't as slow as suggested and thought. Their own T counters got kinda creamed before pummeling it into oblivion.

2nd - They're supposed to have AA capabilities too. This depends on their DPS, though but am thinking that Banshees will get a good dent even before getting in firing range (to strike it). Same applies to Warp Rays since I've heard that they were getting nerfed and redesigned to fit a more Dark Templarish looks.
Carriers seem to be the odd way to beat these beasts but then again we don't even know if the 'Toss tech' necessary is longer than the Thor one. Am assuming that it'll be a close one when regarding tiers. Another issue it's their AA range. If it's close to it's ground attack capabilities then we might have a problem with it when facing the 'Toss capital ships.

3rd - As for Zerg... since we still don't have any details on'em I'd say that they would resort to the ol' Dark Swarm to save their hides.

More will eventually come out after consideration. :P

[DarkMirror]

Zerg just bring in the zergling rush. They move out of artillery range quickly, so the strike ability wont work that well. They move farily quickly, so you can run them around it in circles, striking every few seconds.

[Basan]

I've mentioned the D.Swarm because it'll ease the approach of the quick dispatching crew, the Banelings. But that's the way I currently see it, so I could be dead wrong in the water.

[echoghost]

Thor seams fine to me seince it cant turn fast and cause it supposedly has week AA defence, it seems that it should be easy to take down with a fleet of cariers.

[TitanWing]

Yes, all P players keep massive fleets of carriers in their back pocket. -_-

Read all the anti-Thor arguments. Any sensible person would understand that the Thor has major problems.

[Jaguar_King]

Zerg just bring in the zergling rush. They move out of artillery range quickly, so the strike ability wont work that well. They move farily quickly, so you can run them around it in circles, striking every few seconds.
Finally someone makes sense around here.

[Ktan]

Sort of, but it's not necessarily practical. I'm sure Melee attacks are much harder to micro and the Thor looks like it splashes (indeed, logic dictates that it would)

Of course, it would be ideal if the Thor had a minimum range, but then the only current counter Terrans have is other Thors. Zerg could swanp with lings and Toss could use 'lots, while Terrans have to try and micro Cobras or just mass Thors in response (which makes Thors seem kind of annoying in a TvT)

Of course, this is assuming the Thor has a minimum ranged, and we don't know that. If it takes intense micro to kill it, it should be very expensive, because, frankly, that thing's going to be backed up with M&M (and possibly Reapers. MMR :P) or Cobras and Tanks, depending on the MU and what's being thrown at it.

[Jaguar_King]

well, that's why I was asking how does a Thor perform in close range skirmishes, I think it would make sense if it was unable to shoot artillery at really close range, like the tanks in Siege mode. Maybe it's prone to things like Reaver drops and such too.

For some reason, massing Thors against Thors doesn't sound as a proper counter strategy to me.

[Ktan]

For some reason, massing Thors against Thors doesn't sound as a proper counter strategy to me.

Exactly. They need to do something about TvT Thors, atm, because more than one Thor will just brutally ruin any attempts to use Micro'd Cobras. They could stand pretty much back to back and wreck the Cobras.

Perhaps it's AA will suck. It's still a little early to tell, I suppose, since the Thor was probably ridiculously buffed in the video.

[Protogod]

PvT will be a bitch, given that T still has siege tanks and cobras with its thor.

TvT will become even more of a turtle fest, with everyone hiding behind a thor.

[TitanWing]

You all know my simple solution...

[Protogod]

You all know my simple solution...
Yeah, but we're discussing it. Just cuz we dun like it doesnt mean people cant have a conversation about it.

[sdbolts11]

We will see what Blizzard decides. If the Thor was so terrible, they would have thrown it out long ago. Seeing as they are the developers who are incredible in their field of work, and we are just proud fans and players, we'll leave it up to them :D. In any case, the Terran have a lot of cool new ideas, and the Thor is one of them. :D

[Protogod]

We will see what Blizzard decides. If the Thor was so terrible, they would have thrown it out long ago. Seeing as they are the developers who are incredible in their field of work, and we are just proud fans and players, we'll leave it up to them.

Slow down there sparky. In the end it will be the fans that decide. If people arent gonna buy it, then hell no, they'll drop the thor like a lead balloon.

The "proud players" have a huge influence in games. WE think of strategies and play in ways that blizzard never intended. heavy metal was never a build Blizzard intended when they made sc, they intended for TvP to consist of infantry with machines sprinkled around.

Gols were supposed to be an a general ground-support unit with some anti-air capabilities, not the Carrier-killer we recognise them as.

Hell, people thought it was impossible to kill a lurker with rines, without large numbers and without medics. Then boxer did it with 0 casualties, and people called hax.

Lol, you see, we are gonna use things in ways that blizz never envisioned, so to say that blizzard knows all is a great overestimation of ANY game company, even one as established as blizz.

[Basan]

Set, game and match. Good reasoning there, Proto'. :)

"Cool ideas" might freeze the whole balance as it was already portrayed a while back. They need to revamp teh Thors capabilities to prevent the gayest turtleness around SC2. Being attacked by a 'Toss or Terran? Piece of cake. Distract'em with a Pod or two and bring along the Thors. :P

[reddbeta]

personally i like the Thor. idealy its got the fire power of about 2 sieged tanks but is mobile. i do think it should be slower, like a un-upgrade overlord slow. as for anti air it be bet with a small one, say equal to what a marine could do that way its not defenseless to one air unit. as for taking one down how do you think a reapers demo charge would work on it if its to slow to get out of the blast range?

[Skullflower]

Hell, people thought it was impossible to kill a lurker with rines, without large numbers and without medics. Then boxer did it with 0 casualties, and people called hax.


The video of that is awesome.

I think the Thor is too fast and would be able to get out of the blast range. The mines have something like a 10 second(?) delay from when the Reapers first throw them.

[reddbeta]

well according to http://www.starcraft-source.com/unit-database/terran/reaper.html
"This ability allows for Reapers to attach D8 charges, which are magnetic time bombs, to structures or units. When a structure or unit has a time bomb on it, a sign and a red bar show where the bomb is placed.

Even though it only takes a few seconds, it is possible to defuse the bomb before it explodes."

if the Thor has a min range then potentionaly a few reapers swoop in and plant their charges on a Thor leaving it helpless to disable them? I think that regardless of the Thors speed, would take it down (as well any marines gurading it)

[DarkLStrike]

I think, in order to make Thor balanced, they should make its weapons extremely inaccurate against fast moving small units (it can still pwn hordes of small units, because of the splash) .

[pytum]

i think that some reapers can kill the thor fast... of course with their mines, and about protoss... immortals with their specials shields and blink-move ability from stalkers, or!!!, charged zealots!, i think that its fast to kill a thor, and also with two yamatos!

so, i think thor is easy to kill, but, its a powerful unit and its nice

[Protogod]

charged zealots! wtf? it doesnt have a minimum range yet, and charge isnt some use-on-demand ability i think that its fast to kill a thor, and also with two yamatos!
No. 'Nuff said.

[pytum]

it doesnt have a minimum range yet,
well... i think it could have it

but yeah no one has said something about a minimum range for the thor...

[Protogod]

but yeah no one has said something about a minimum range for the thor...
If I may - The first page:
Siege tanks have minimum range, give it to Thors.

well... i would like minimum range instead of getting rid of it

I would like to get rid of it instead of give it minimum range.

I'm not sure, but the tanks might not have a minimum range.
No...they sill have a minimum range.

'Nuff said

[pytum]

when i said that "no one has said something about a mininum range for the thor" i meant the sources like blizzforums, sc2.org, sclegacy, starcraft.org

[sdbolts11]

It seems the Thors only weapons are its two huge guns on its arms and the huge artillery cannons on its back. It should have some heavy machine gun to engage infantry :/

[BlackDefiler]

No way! The long cooldown of the lasers is what lets large numbers of small units close to the Thor without significant losses. A machinegun would ruin the whole thing.

[Basan]

It seems the Thors only weapons are its two huge guns on its arms and the huge artillery cannons on its back. It should have some heavy machine gun to engage infantry :/

Still thinking ying and yang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ying_and_yang#Yin.2FYang_in_Western_Culture) (as in balance)? Guess not. *Sigh* :P

That way the Thor could be the all around unit. It already has a barrage ability (along with regular unit pummelling with it's cannons), somewhat of a quick turn speed radius and has AA. Add quick machine gun fire and 'Lings and similar fast units would get creamed.

[reddbeta]

well another good TvT way to take it down is a ghosts lock down move, if its nabbed soon enough then heck a few marines or any thing else could take it down

another thing is maybe because of its size like the Colossus it can be targeted by AA? (if so then ideally the zerg might have a giant unit with the same problem but thats a different story)

as for a protoss match for it the Colossus has nearly the same health (not sure because of the unknown shield on the Thor as of yet) and if it shares the colossus ability to be targeted as air, then a squad of Pheonixs could over load and cause it problems. as for Zerg Ultras should be able to withstand the cannons for some time, but if Thor can be considered air beacause of its size then Scourge could put a fast and cheap hurting to it not to mention the other zerg AA's

[Basan]

well another good TvT way to take it down is a ghosts lock down move, if its nabbed soon enough then heck a few marines or any thing else could take it down

That if the Ghosts (http://eu.starcraft2.com/features/terran/index.xml?tab=ghost) keep that ability. So far I've heard it back and forth so until am seeing it clearly there, I'm not holding it much as a possibility.

another thing is maybe because of its size like the Colossus it can be targeted by AA? (if so then ideally the zerg might have a giant unit with the same problem but thats a different story)

...

Am somewhat torn on this one. Thors are pretty darn big but they're not as tall as the Colossi are. Although am somewhat hoping it for the heck of diversity countering that cursed juggernaut. :)

We don't know about that "giant Zerg unit" but provided that now they're more of the amassable kind I think that cheap, small units are the way they seem to be evolving. I even suspect that the Ultra' might get ditched perhaps over an additional offensive support spell caster.

[DarkMirror]

machinegun???... sweet... an infantry with a machine gun will be nice
Ever hear of the marine?

[Basan]

Pytum, cut down on the spam. It's obvious that your description is one of a Marine. And that in a thread about Thor balance has no place whatsoever. :P

And also lets also make a diet on trolling and flaming as well, heh? :shiftyl:

[Faiien]

lol we hate the thor so much we should sign a petition against it haha
so far i havnt read one statement that has convinced me that the thor should remain in sc2

[BlackDefiler]

It's like the Terrans getting another BC but on the ground. Even the Plasmatorps and Barrage are alike.

[Protogod]

Just a thought- what if sections of the thor were destructable. Like, you can destroy one of its guns or some of its cannons or something. Each part one at a time.

[reddbeta]

Just a thought- what if sections of the thor were destructable. Like, you can destroy one of its guns or some of its cannons or something. Each part one at a time.

i like that, its like the Wanzers in Front mission games. Take out the arms and it loses its attack, damage a leg and its hella slow, kill the body and you take down the beast. if thats the case then spider mines would slow it down more

[sdbolts11]

Still thinking ying and yang (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ying_and_yang#Yin.2FYang_in_Western_Culture) (as in balance)? Guess not. *Sigh* :P

That way the Thor could be the all around unit. It already has a barrage ability (along with regular unit pummelling with it's cannons), somewhat of a quick turn speed radius and has AA. Add quick machine gun fire and 'Lings and similar fast units would get creamed.
Well, just thinking realistically :/. It's like tanks, all tanks have anti-infantry and even anti-air (obviously low-flying like choppers) machine guns. I don't think anyone would be stupid not to put MG's on the Thor. However, yes, it would be terribly imbalanced, and this is a game and not real life :D.
lol we hate the thor so much we should sign a petition against it haha
so far i havnt read one statement that has convinced me that the thor should remain in sc2
We'll see what Blizz thinks.
It's like the Terrans getting another BC but on the ground. Even the Plasmatorps and Barrage are alike.
And also the Banshee's rocket barrage.
Just a thought- what if sections of the thor were destructable. Like, you can destroy one of its guns or some of its cannons or something. Each part one at a time.
Bringing more and more realism into it. It would have to be applied to all vehicles and ships, just the Thor would be terribly stupid.

[pytum]

maybe the thor could degrade while the time pass if it is very damaged(like a building, you know, in the "red zone")

[sdbolts11]

Would have to be applied to all units, as that's what would happen if only applied to one... it would be like having a marine in red zone limping around and barely being able to shoot. No, this is a game, not real life lol.

[Protogod]

Would have to be applied to all units

No. It's called game balance.

[DarkMirror]

And it is built like a building...
Holy crap! That is a good idea.

[Basan]

Heh, it may balance things a bit. Shooting only from it's arms (when the other fell off), slower DPS (due to dents into it's mechanisms) and reduced moving speed in it's walker system. And thought of one even better... when it's damaged beyond a level it couldn't perform that barrage thing.

Now for real, I don't know but it does seem to strain a bit on the game engine to perform such SFX and game mechanics at the same time. :o They better pull off something more easily feasible like really nerfing it's moving radius, the DPS, setting a minimum range (in which he can't fire upon) and perhaps even removing the AA capability.

[3Vee]

Just a thought- what if sections of the thor were destructable. Like, you can destroy one of its guns or some of its cannons or something. Each part one at a time.

Interesting idea. The only place I've seen something like that is on HW2 capitals, and carrying it out is often impractical - after an attack or two, the other guy gets really nervous about bombers and 'vettes and they don't last long.

But this isn't Homeworld, and gameplay is different. I can see a potential here with the Ghost's snipe ability or a Yamato - you could choose to target the weapons. You could even extend the idea: who wouldn't want to be able to just blow the lasers off a Colossus? Well, other than a Protoss player. ;-)

[DarkMirror]

Nah. Dont use the destructable units. Puts to much of a strain on the engine and players.

[Protogod]

Besides, the snipe ability only affects organic units.

[TitanWing]

For certain?

[vIsitor]

Would be imbalanced otherwise, Titan.

I think the Sniping ability is Blizzard's answer to replacing Irradiate (which was rather imbalanced). But since having both Snipe and Lockdown is imbalanced for a single unit to have, they scrapped the later one (especially since it would be so effective with all the new machines).

[3Vee]

Besides, the snipe ability only affects organic units.

I realize that, but it could be modified for a couple special instances. I was just throwing around an idea.

[Basan]

Would be imbalanced otherwise, Titan.

I think the Sniping ability is Blizzard's answer to replacing Irradiate (which was rather imbalanced). But since having both Snipe and Lockdown is imbalanced for a single unit to have, they scrapped the later one (especially since it would be so effective with all the new machines).

I see the Sniping ability as an attempt to make Ghosts being used vs. Zerg, a thing not too common in SC-BW. Put the Lockdown in some other unit if it imbalances the game then, athough I somewhat doubt it since Ghosts are usually top tech' tree units.

Imagine a few Thors behind Depots, along with a few Tanks and 'Rines. Lockdown may be one of the few things that could break a turtling T in SC2. I think that the Nomad or the Interceptor could have it if not the Ghost... provided that they're higher in the tech' tree too. ;)

[pytum]

so, does that "snipe" ability could take down an ultralisk?? or maybe an ultralisk?

[DarkMirror]

All we know is that it does a high amount of damage to biological units, and at least enough to kill a rine. That could be 60, or that could be 100. We dont know.

[Basan]

From what we're being told be those Karune's answering batches, BlizzCon event answers and some others it can kill low (and eventually up to medium) HP carrying, biological units so most likely that Ultra' über kill won't happen. Unless it's being snipped by several Ghosts at the same time... :concern:

[Protogod]

so, does that "snipe" ability could take down an ultralisk?? or maybe an ultralisk?
Nice english, kekekekeke
From what we're being told be those Karune's answering batches, BlizzCon event answers and some others it can kill low (and eventually up to medium) HP carrying, biological units so most likely that Ultra' über kill won't happen. Unless it's being snipped by several Ghosts at the same time...
Well, from what I've heard (heard, as in unsubstantiated rumors) is that it does ~150 damage to organic units. Again, wholly unsubstantiated, but it is something along the lines of what darkmirror said.

[BlackDefiler]

I think it will be made concusive so it will only do 150 to small units, and maybe 75 to medium 37 to large. If they keep this in SC2. Or maybe you will only be able to target small units with it.

[TitanWing]

Sniping HTs! kekekeke

[Kimera757]

Snipe does 150 damage. You can kill a High Templar. You can almost kill a Zealot. Almost. I think it won't work on Ultralisks; too broken to have cloaked Ghosts doing that, IMO. I think it'll only work on small and maybe medium organic units.

[DarkMirror]

We dont know how much damage it does. Nothing has been confirmed.

[TitanWing]

We dont know how much damage it does. Nothing has been confirmed.
Agreed.

Unless anyone's got links?

[Kawagata]

what ever the damage, bout time. How many mods have ghosts with snipers? how many sniping games with ghost? Bout bloody time.

[SolidSamurai]

I imagine HTs'll find some way to counter this. Like... super psi-storm or something!

There'll definitely be a reason not to create TWAs aside from the use of ninja DTs.

Not that I play protoss.

[Dragonboyjgh]

.....

[Protogod]

i don't see what the big deal is. thor's should be very easy to beat. in case no actually read long enough to find out, they turn extremely slowly. if you get a more manueverable unit like mutalisks or stalkers behind them, you have a good 30 sec of hits if you do this with a small group, you should be able to take one down in no time or you could always just lock down it with a nomad

Thank you oh wise nublet. Now read the thread for my response, because you're wrong and I've explained why every one of your points is wrong.

Edit: & yes, in retrospect that was harsh- but really. To brush off the 100+ post conversation as an "easy fix" is not just counterproductive, but frankly assumptuous and ignorant.

Your points were disrobed throughout the conversation (multiple times I might add) and it is simply bothersome to have to repeat the same thing every other post.

[TitanWing]

i don't see what the big deal is about thors. Thors should be very easy to beat.

In case no actually read long enough to find out, they turn extremely slowly. if you get a more manueverable unit like mutalisks or stalkers behind them, you have a good 30 sec of hits. If you do this with a small group, you should be able to take one down in no time or you could always just lock down it with a nomad, then hit it with a marine rush if you feel n00bish enough(not to mention, you could take it down with just 1 immortal, because the thor is such a heavy hitter).

plus, they're making it so that it is built by scv, so it is unlikely that they will have more than maybe two created in an entire game.
Why do all these noobs keep thinking so narrowly? A Thor will NEVER appear on it's own but rather in a well balanced late-game army in which it will be almost impossible to counter directly or easily.

[vIsitor]

Yes, but a Thor + a well-balanced army costs a lot of resources and time. The Protoss, at least, could overpower the Thor with with a balanced army of their own with mothership, or mass carriers, etc. The concerns about the Thor from the community are loud enough that I have faith that Blizzard will balance it properly; you should too.

[Thedutchjelle]

Why do all these noobs keep thinking so narrowly? A Thor will NEVER appear on it's own but rather in a well balanced late-game army in which it will be almost impossible to counter directly or easily.

Because they only play fastest, and in fastest diverse armies do not exist?

[3Vee]

Yes, but a Thor + a well-balanced army costs a lot of resources and time. The Protoss, at least, could overpower the Thor with with a balanced army of their own with mothership, or mass carriers, etc. The concerns about the Thor from the community are loud enough that I have faith that Blizzard will balance it properly; you should too.

This is probably valid; however, the Thor as it stands has nearly the total firepower of the mothership and in raw firepower appears to actually have more - the m'ship merely has a bunch of extra abilities. How useful it will be against a Tossie capital fleet is of course open to question.

Anyway, we're not that concerned with what Blizzard will do; we argue from what they have done to try to get them to fix it. If we just assumed Blizzard will work everything out, that'd eliminate three quarters of the posts in this forum, and where's the fun in that? ;)

[vIsitor]

This is probably valid; however, the Thor as it stands has nearly the total firepower of the mothership and in raw firepower appears to actually have more - the m'ship merely has a bunch of extra abilities. How useful it will be against a Tossie capital fleet is of course open to question.

Anyway, we're not that concerned with what Blizzard will do; we argue from what they have done to try to get them to fix it. If we just assumed Blizzard will work everything out, that'd eliminate three quarters of the posts in this forum, and where's the fun in that? ;)

After all the flak Blizzard received for WarCraft III, I would assume they've learned their lesson.

And do remember that approximately a third of that third is comprised of posts from TitanWing and ProtoGod; if you have a complaint about something, it would be best only to voice one's opinion once.

[Protogod]

And do remember that approximately a third of that third is comprised of posts from TitanWing and ProtoGod; if you have a complaint about something, it would be best only to voice one's opinion once.

Aside from the fact that you shouldn't be telling me what to do, it is wholly acceptable that our opinion be reiterated when noobs return with the same tired argument of "LAWLZ IT IZ NOT TEH IMBA!!! TRUST BLIZRAD!"

When the less-than-capable continually present the same baseless "argument" (if you can even call it that) there is no reason for us not to reiterate the common-sense problems with thor.

[Kimera757]

We dont know how much damage it does. Nothing has been confirmed.

It did 150 damage at BlizzCon.

[TitanWing]

OK, now confirm it.

[3dshocker]

I realize this is a hot topic, and we already tried this subject once... so if this needs a /thread, I'll deal. ;) But we've actually seen the thing now, so I thought I'd toss out a couple observations and see what people think.

First off, having seen the Thor, I like it. I liked the concept to begin with, but wasn't sold on the in-game look to begin with and saw several balance issues. I still do, but they might be fixable.

First problem: it's too fast. This is both movement speed and turn speed: we saw that it could turn almost as fast as the Cobras were circling, which means it's not quite as vulnerable - especially with multiple Thors or other support - as Blizzard tried to indicate.

Second problem: artillery barrage. I couldn't tell much about this ability, actually. It looks like it does too much damage too fast, which could be a game breaker. One redeeming factoid is that it looks like the Thor is stuck and can't attack otherwise, which means that potentially mobile units could get out of the way. I'd still cut down the damage and/or length of the barrage if it were up to me, but it isn't.

Basically: there has to be enough done to nerf it that the Terran game, and especially TvT, isn't a race to Thors. On the other hand, it has several potential weaknesses (Lockdown, assuming it stays, and air). So it might work fine. Thoughts?

I'd say the terran thor is the most powerful terran unit but it isn't overpowered.

The artillery barrage ability as you said is powerful but it's no different from a psionic storm (with the exception that it can take out a command centre) However there is a long delay for it to start up the barrage. Yes buildings do not stand a chance against the thor. But all moving units can take advantage of the thor's inability to move once the barrage is started. Anything from zeolots to a few templar storms to collasusses should be able to take out the thor.

As for TvT I'd expect that a dozen seige tanks and a dozen vikings should be able to handle a terran army push based on thor's. Similar to the original starcraft, I expect that no terran ground unit should be able to get close if you go nuts with the tank numbers ~ which is what I would do if the opponent was building thor's.

[TitanWing]

I'd say the terran thor is the most powerful terran unit but it isn't overpowered.

The artillery barrage ability as you said is powerful but it's no different from a psionic storm (with the exception that it can take out a command centre) However there is a long delay for it to start up the barrage. Yes buildings do not stand a chance against the thor. But all moving units can take advantage of the thor's inability to move once the barrage is started. Anything from zeolots to a few templar storms to collasusses should be able to take out the thor.Choke point anyone? And once AGAIN, nobody wants to explain how to beat it with tank/cobra/viking support because that's what you'll see in-game. Not a lone Thor. -_-

As for TvT I'd expect that a dozen seige tanks and a dozen vikings should be able to handle a terran army push based on thor's. Similar to the original starcraft, I expect that no terran ground unit should be able to get close if you go nuts with the tank numbers ~ which is what I would do if the opponent was building thor's.
Yes...12 tanks and 12 vikings is definately a cheap and easy way to do it....especially when the Thor is effective at KILLING those units.

[3dshocker]

judging by how long it took a few cobras to kill a thor in that video. I expect that 3 siege tanks blowing on the thor twice would certainly kill it. approx 450 total damage.

I'd say tanks are anti-thor weapons as it is.

3 tanks is a relatively cheap counter to 1 thor isn't it?

As for 12 tanks and 12 vikings, yea it's not cheap but it wouldn't be too different in cost from the army of the guy trying to support his thor.

[Protogod]

You're entitled to believe what you want, as wrong as it is.

[TitanWing]

judging by how long it took a few cobras to kill a thor in that video. I expect that 3 siege tanks blowing on the thor twice would certainly kill it. approx 450 total damage.

I'd say tanks are anti-thor weapons as it is.

3 tanks is a relatively cheap counter to 1 thor isn't it?

As for 12 tanks and 12 vikings, yea it's not cheap but it wouldn't be too different in cost from the army of the guy trying to support his thor.
Once again, you are thinking in the narrow-minded situation that you encounter a lone Thor with no support.

[Protogod]

Once again, you are thinking in the narrow-minded situation that you encounter a lone Thor with no support.

Yes. The next time this needs to be said, I think its a cue that this thread has run its course.

Either find a new argument or stfu.

[TitanWing]

Find a new arguement? This is the "we hate the Thor" thread, I'm suppose to hate on the Thor in here.

[Protogod]

Find a new arguement? This is the "we hate the Thor" thread, I'm suppose to hate on the Thor in here.

I'm talking to the nublets, mmkay? If they can't come up with a better argument than "trust bliz!!" or "if they only send 1 thor, then..." Then this thread has run it's course, as no new conversation is being derived from this age-old debate.

There is no need for inherent hostilities, especially when I'm on your side.:mad:

[TitanWing]

But I like pwning them...

[3Vee]

Find a new arguement? This is the "we hate the Thor" thread, I'm suppose to hate on the Thor in here.

Actually, this is the, "If you think you have an argument for the Thor, or a way to balance it (since as it stands it is obviously imba in a normal game situation), then bring it, punks," thread. I'm sold on the Thor as a concept, but it needs a bit of a visual makeover and some serious balance work.

[pytum]

Find a new arguement? This is the "we hate the Thor" thread, I'm suppose to hate on the Thor in here.

you hate the thor everywhere...

[Basan]

judging by how long it took a few cobras to kill a thor in that video. I expect that 3 siege tanks blowing on the thor twice would certainly kill it. approx 450 total damage.

I'd say tanks are anti-thor weapons as it is.

3 tanks is a relatively cheap counter to 1 thor isn't it?

As for 12 tanks and 12 vikings, yea it's not cheap but it wouldn't be too different in cost from the army of the guy trying to support his thor.

Considering that none of the units you mentioned to be an alternative counter can fire while they're moving, like the Cobras do, I think that (in assumptions) you're goin' way over your head.

Just not to mention, yet again, that support units (like other Thors, for instance) will help to steadily cream those options.

[TitanWing]

Considering that none of the units you mentioned to be an alternative counter can fire while they're moving, like the Cobras do, I think that (in assumptions) you're goin' way over your head.

Just not to mention, yet again, that support units (like other Thors, for instance) will help to steadily cream those options.
As I already said.

[3dshocker]

Once again, you are thinking in the narrow-minded situation that you encounter a lone Thor with no support.

I specifically mentioned the armies of both sides. Yea I'm talking about a thor with support. I'm maintaining that so long as you have 3 siege tanks per thor the remainder of your army should be capable of going toe to toe with the support the thor has. For instance if the thor has tanks, vikins, marines backing it you'd be using banshees to counter it. The cost of the counter army to a thor and it's support army would be almost the same.

~And if the thor enters artillery barrage mode, you can always reaper bomb it.

[3Vee]

I~And if the thor enters artillery barrage mode, you can always reaper bomb it.

Now, it may just be me, but this has a problem. To me it looks like the Thor's artillery strike is specifically designed to counter tanks. Well, and smash bases, but most usefully to counter tanks. And since it's mechanical, it can probably be repaired. And since it looks like the artillery-striking Thor is immobile, anyone using it is going to be especially careful at that point, right? "Reaper-bombing" only works if the Reapers survive to get close enough to attack. Sort of like DT are only useful against a tank push if you can avoid spider-mines. Banshees would be most useful against a Thor in artillery mode, but they have no AA capability, which is a weakness. Of course, we don't know yet exactly how late-game armies will balance out, so it might work.

[3dshocker]

Now, it may just be me, but this has a problem. To me it looks like the Thor's artillery strike is specifically designed to counter tanks. Theres a relatively long (3-4 seconds?) delay on the start up time for the artillery barrage. Atleast that's what it looked like from the video.

If you set the tanks to target the thor then 3 siege mode tanks should be able to take out the thor before it starts unloading its fire power.

I'm predicting that on an extreme end~ a wall of siege tanks could take out a wall of advancing thor's. (maintaining 3 tanks per thor).

I remember hearing something about the banshee or maybe it was another unit that could deflect incoming enemy fire...perhaps this would nullify the barrage?

~I agree with the point about the reapers not being able to get close

[Basan]

I specifically mentioned the armies of both sides. Yea I'm talking about a thor with support. I'm maintaining that so long as you have 3 siege tanks per thor the remainder of your army should be capable of going toe to toe with the support the thor has. For instance if the thor has tanks, vikins, marines backing it you'd be using banshees to counter it. The cost of the counter army to a thor and it's support army would be almost the same.

~And if the thor enters artillery barrage mode, you can always reaper bomb it.

And vice-versa. Vikings do an excellent support for Thors with their duality fighting air and ground alike (and they could even avoid the Tank fire while approaching in airship mode. Same goes for the Thor supporting 'Rines.

Theres a relatively long (3-4 seconds?) delay on the start up time for the artillery barrage. Atleast that's what it looked like from the video.

If you set the tanks to target the thor then 3 siege mode tanks should be able to take out the thor before it starts unloading its fire power.

I'm predicting that on an extreme end~ a wall of siege tanks could take out a wall of advancing thor's. (maintaining 3 tanks per thor).

I remember hearing something about the banshee or maybe it was another unit that could deflect incoming enemy fire...perhaps this would nullify the barrage?

~I agree with the point about the reapers not being able to get close

We don't know the price for both Thors and Tanks. So you cannot be sure that they'll do an effective counter comparing to their price tags.

*Hint, hint* As for the Predator's Interceptor mode you refer you still have no details about it so for all we know it may be able to only deflect incoming air fire.

[DarkMirror]

The three tanks argument makes no sense. Sieged tanks did 70 damage, and the thor seems to have around 400 hp. 70x3=210, and 210<400

[3dshocker]

The three tanks argument makes no sense. Sieged tanks did 70 damage, and the thor seems to have around 400 hp. 70x3=210, and 210<400

The point was that the siege tanks should be able to squeeze off two shots on the thor before it can prep artillery barrage mode or even get in range for head to head combat.

70x3x2=420 damage, 420>210

We don't know the price for both Thors and Tanks. So you cannot be sure that they'll do an effective counter comparing to their price tags.
True but given that the thor is supposed to be able to tackle a battle cruiser I expect the price to be similar to the bc. With tanks being 150 mins and 100 gas each the comparitive prices for 3 tanks to one thor isn't so bad. This all just an estimate ofcourse.

And vice-versa. Vikings do an excellent support for Thors with their duality fighting air and ground alike (and they could even avoid the Tank fire while approaching in airship mode. Same goes for the Thor supporting 'Rines. Well the idea is that you aren't fighting with a pure tank army. You should have support for your tanks....and a thor & rine army would ezily be slaughtered by tanks.

[Basan]

The point was that the siege tanks should be able to squeeze off two shots on the thor before it can prep artillery barrage mode or even get in range for head to head combat.

70x3x2=420 damage, 420>210

Forgetting it's supporting army? Any supporting forces (other Thors, 'Rines, Vikings and/or Banshees) would make mince meat of the Tanks and their supporting troops while they're FF'ing the Thor.

True but given that the thor is supposed to be able to tackle a battle cruiser I expect the price to be similar to the bc. With tanks being 150 mins and 100 gas each the comparitive prices for 3 tanks to one thor isn't so bad. This all just an estimate ofcourse.

I'd just like to see where it states that they're "suposed to tackle BC's".

Besides, you're 'conveniently' forgetting about the effectiveness of the counter you suggested. Just not to mention the micro' nightmare to pull it off. Tanks focusing Thors and the rest of it's supporting forces aiming the Thors' ones. *Meh* Doesn't seem too feasible to say the least. :P

Well the idea is that you aren't fighting with a pure tank army. You should have support for your tanks....and a thor & rine army would ezily be slaughtered by tanks.

I know what you said. And have replied accordingly (mentioned others besides the 'Rines supporting the Thors countless times before). The Thors' support forces sniping the Tanks ones and vice-versa isn't micro' practicable nor feasible at all for most players, except the pros/gosus.
Please come with a better arguement or else continuing to repeat one another isn't a concept that am willing to endure for much longer. [/Ponders thread 'counter'/rip status]

[3dshocker]

Forgetting it's supporting army? Any supporting forces (other Thors, 'Rines, Vikings and/or Banshees) would make mince meat of the Tanks and their supporting troops while they're FF'ing the Thor.
lol, more thors don't count as support...that's just....adding more thors...

I'd just like to see where it states that they're "suposed to tackle BC's". It was either in the video or the forums.

Forgetting it's supporting army? Any supporting forces (other Thors, 'Rines, Vikings and/or Banshees) would make mince meat of the Tanks and their supporting troops while they're FF'ing the Thor.

very well, imagine a battle field where two mid game armies are about to engage.

the red army consists of 2 thors, 6 vikings (air), 6 banshees, and 15 marines.
the blue army consists of 6 tanks in siege mode, 12 vikings (air) and 15 marines. (the 6 additional vikings support the tanks better then banshees would)

blue army is on defensive with tanks in siege mode as red army attacks. How would you plan on winning with the red army? Kamikaze the banshees in an attempt to destroy the tanks? What if the tanks are spread out?

[DarkMirror]

Artillery strike the tanks, eliminating most of them. Then micro the vikings and marines to blow up the banshees and other vikings. Problem solved.

[DarkLStrike]

I thought I've seen a screenshot of the THOR having 900hp?

[Basan]

lol, more thors don't count as support...that's just....adding more thors...

Nonsense blatter. If one is performing a barrage why can't we have the other or others supporting it?

It was either in the video or the forums.

Not gonna waist my time searching for it if you're not providing substance to that claim yourself.

very well, imagine a battle field where two mid game armies are about to engage.

the red army consists of 2 thors, 6 vikings (air), 6 banshees, and 15 marines.
the blue army consists of 6 tanks in siege mode, 12 vikings (air) and 15 marines. (the 6 additional vikings support the tanks better then banshees would)

blue army is on defensive with tanks in siege mode as red army attacks. How would you plan on winning with the red army? Kamikaze the banshees in an attempt to destroy the tanks? What if the tanks are spread out?

Since we're going on the hypothetical field, why can't I have 3 Thors, 6 (upgraded) Vikings, 3 (cloaked) Banshees to do the raiding parties and lesser 'Rines with Medic(s) support? :rolleyes:

--------
Summing up,
http://up.kupatrix.com/f/9/My%20Documents/Mod%27%20Usage%20-%20Seen%20the%20end.jpg