Planet Earth

[TheOutcast]

There are lots of interesting things in this world, what do we
know about it? I was pondering some questions about Earth:

-How was water created?
-How did life come to be?
-Why are we here?

Many things in this world seem to revolve around
some sort of balanced cycle, which is pretty interesting.
I don't know what the rest of you think about Earth,
but the question that's been bugging me was "why are we here".

[TheDriver]

Scientifcally, We're here because of evolution,and bacteria.
Why are we here?
Because of a big boom and some space parisites that hitched on for the ride.

This is pretty much , scientifcally what our top researchers have got.
, And assumably the wetness in the air formed a puudle and expanded. Also it could have been formed by some space mineral that formed water. I say this because how could Mars have had water?

[ecyor0]

Scientifcally, We're here because of evolution,and bacteria.
Why are we here?
Because of a big boom and some space parisites that hitched on for the ride.

This is pretty much , scientifcally what our top researchers have got.
, And assumably the wetness in the air formed a puudle and expanded. Also it could have been formed by some space mineral that formed water. I say this because how could Mars have had water?

Water forms from the combustion of hydrogen in a oxygen atmosphere - easy enough to form. In fact, about 15% (I think) of the substance spewed out in a volcanic eruption is newly-created water in the form of superheated steam.

But evolution doesn't explain why we're here. It can explain how we got here from other life, but not how life originated. There's actually a large number of paradoxes that conspire to thwart evolutionists - I'll give the simplest example, that of the UV-Oxygen paradox.

[btw, when I say 'evolutionists' I'm not talking about the sensible scientists who treat Evolution as a sound theory proved beyond reasonable doubt, and just use it as one branch of science among many, but the pseudo-scientists who want to explain everything in biology by evolution, including the genesis of life: mainly just to disprove the ideas of creation-evolutionists]

Basically, some of the vital amino-acids needed to form certain fundamental proteins, and ultimately life, cannot form in an oxygen-rich atmosphere. "No problem" say the evolutionists "the proteins formed before the earth had an oxygen-rich atmosphere" But this presents a new problem. No oxygen means no ozone, which means nothing to block UV radiation reaching the surface. And UV radiation also prevents these amino acids from forming. The same problem applies even to life brought by asteroid (I mean, that life had to arise somewhere, right?)

I'm a little short on references for this at the moment - I'll look around for some articles to back it up a little later

[Toucan]

Basically, some of the vital amino-acids needed to form certain fundamental proteins, and ultimately life, cannot form in an oxygen-rich atmosphere. "No problem" say the evolutionists "the proteins formed before the earth had an oxygen-rich atmosphere" But this presents a new problem. No oxygen means no ozone, which means nothing to block UV radiation reaching the surface. And UV radiation also prevents these amino acids from forming. The same problem applies even to life brought by asteroid (I mean, that life had to arise somewhere, right?)

Ummm, why was the ozone layer needed to protect single cell life forms forming on the bottom of the ocean?

UV does not penetrate very deeply through water, this is why it gets perceptively darker when you dive with even just a snorkel.

[TheOutcast]

Scientifcally, We're here because of evolution,and bacteria.
Why are we here?
Because of a big boom and some space parisites that hitched on for the ride.
Actually, I was referring to the "astrology" side of "why are we here".
I mean, is there a specific reason we are here, a specific reason life exists?

[ecyor0]

Ahh, in that case.....

That depends on your religion. If you're christian, then the reason for life is to discover God's nature. If you're not.... well, I can't speak for those people. Also philosophically, there is the anthropic principle - the idea that the universe shows such a high degree of fine-tuning to accommodate life means that there must be some purpose behind it all. (You could argue that "Of course it looks planned - we wouldn't be here to see it if it wasn't" but that doesn't explain why it looks that way)

[lammas]

hmh. If there is god you cant make any rational guesses out of his reasons and if there isnt there cannot be any reasons at all.

the idea that the universe shows such a high degree of fine-tuning to accommodate life means that there must be some purpose behind it all.

Iam sorry but now I dont quite understand. Why should there be some purpose behind it?

[SilverCrusader]

UV does not penetrate very deeply through water, this is why it gets perceptively darker when you dive with even just a snorkel.
UV is not visible light, and therefore your statement has now logic backing it.
UV rays are transferred into thermal energy when they reach something, it is the reason the sun feels warm, so all water could not take the intense full heat from the sun. And lastly, oxygen is needed to form water, so the argument fails.

[Icarus]

hmh. If there is god you cant make any rational guesses out of his reasons and if there isnt there cannot be any reasons at all.



Iam sorry but now I dont quite understand. Why should there be some purpose behind it?

The natural reason for all life is simply to survive, and live. That's really the only conclusion you can come to simply by observing life and how it works. Things live, things die. Things want to stay alive for as long as possible, while at the same time trying to keep their fellow species alive for as long as possible, while at the same time making sure offspring survive.

Unless you're talking about humans, of course

[Toucan]

UV is not visible light, and therefore your statement has now logic backing it.
UV rays are transferred into thermal energy when they reach something, it is the reason the sun feels warm, so all water could not take the intense full heat from the sun. And lastly, oxygen is needed to form water, so the argument fails.

Funniest thing I have read in a while. The only band ever discovered to penetrate the ocean to its floor is a green band laser. NOTHING else can penetrate to it's floor. We never had the ability to map or in some cases even see the ocean floor before that discovery.

Water existed on earth before the atmosphere formed.

BTW Infrared is the band that is the reason light from the sun feels warm.

[SilverCrusader]

Eh, oh well >.>
I seem to get stuff confused.
However, how did non living matter give rise to living matter?

[TheOutcast]

Eh, oh well >.>
I seem to get stuff confused.
However, how did non living matter give rise to living matter?
That's a question that I've been wondering too. If you think of it, we know little of our origins. So, that might be a question that seems impossible to answer.

[DragonPaladin]

-How was water created?

Mixing acid with base.
HCL(l) + NaOH(l) -> NaCL(aq) + H2O(l)



-Why are we here?


Don't know why you're here. I'm here for the cookies and drama.

[SilverCrusader]

What we are, are mere fools playing with things beyond our comprehension. We're children playing with fire, we've already burnt ourselves (Nagasaki, Hiroshima), but we're too stubborn to realize the destruction we can cause.

[TheOutcast]

Pretty much, our intelligence's sole purpose was to help us survive, not wreck havoc among the globe.....

[Icarus]

Our intelligence gave us the ability to be the rulers of the world, and unlike other species we can express emotions like pleasure, pain, joy, and anger. So we decided to take that opportunity.

Sure, there have been obstacles, as there always will be, but there are also the rewards, such as the fact that you don't have to worry about being eaten by a grizzly bear or whether or not you'll have enough meat to survive the week or suffering from fever or cholera with no treatment.

So, silvercrusader, would you rather we live like the other wildlife on this planet and most certainly die out, or continue our course?

Life and death is most certainly within human comprehension.

[NightElfking]

There are lots of interesting things in this world, what do we
know about it? I was pondering some questions about Earth:

-How was water created?
-How did life come to be?
-Why are we here?

Many things in this world seem to revolve around
some sort of balanced cycle, which is pretty interesting.
I don't know what the rest of you think about Earth,
but the question that's been bugging me was "why are we here".
Read the bible.
Has it in there, plain and simple.

[Protogod]

Read the bible.
Has it in there, plain and simple.

Read a Science Journal. Less interesting, but we've progressed in the last 2000 years. Wanna join us in the modern world?

[ecyor0]

<sigh>

Y'know, how can you even argue with the belief that the bible and science are mutually exclusive? You're never going to convince the other person, so you may as well not bother.

Nevertheless, I am human, and the human psyche likes to try the mental equivalent of knocking down a brick wall with your head, so.....

A science journal cannot be compared to the bible. The former is a constantly changing piece that shifts it's stance every month. The bible just gives you what it gives you and lets you either elaborate on, accept, or refute it.

Also the bible is not a scientific textbook of the creationist theory - never has been, never will be. It wasn't meant to be one. In fact, the bible doesn't really take sides, much like God himself. (By that I don't mean God is a Buddhist - I mean that when it comes to God, it's not a question of "Whose side are you on God?" it's really a case of "I'm God. Are you on my side?")

Besides, I don't really put much stock by scientific journal's anyway (see my signature)

[SilverCrusader]

So, silvercrusader, would you rather we live like the other wildlife on this planet and most certainly die out, or continue our course?
I'm not saying we shouldn't try to find out what we're doing with technology, I'm saying we should be more careful. There are ways to live in harmony with the rest of the world, hell, we could make our entire civilization live in sky cities, while leaving the wildlife down behind us. Thats is, if we developed the technology to do so.

[Protogod]

A science journal cannot be compared to the bible. The former is a constantly changing piece that shifts it's stance every month. The bible just gives you what it gives you and lets you either elaborate on, accept, or refute it. you say that like self correction is a bad thing. I can say "the sky is purple" and then not correct it. Or I can say "the sky is purple, no wait its blue" One sentence simply leaves its mistake, the other attempts to correct it, and get as close as possible to truth.

Besides, I don't really put much stock by scientific journal's anyway (see my signature)
Again, you criticize science for the sole fact that they revise their mistakes, instead of leaving them and pretending progress doesnt exist.

If you think you cant even argue the bible, then i pity you. He just left "read the bible" as an answer to a serious question about our origin. This section is for discussion, and if you say the bible "cant be argued" then his post defeats the point of this section anyway.

[ecyor0]

No, you misunderstood me. I meant that a scientific journal is a constantly changing piece, and therein lies its strength. The bible is an unchanging reference point, and therein lies its strength. I was trying to emphasise that they can't be directly compared to each other, and that one does not deny the other.

Self-correction isn't a bad thing. What I rankle at with the scientific community is that they seem to have an air of self-righteousness (much like certain Christians) that prevents them from accepting that people can believe in science and God at the same time. Science is meant to be an objective attempt to interpret the facts to discover the true nature of the universe - not (as it has so often been maligned to become) a tool for "liberating" people from religious "ignorance". Slightly ironic, since Christianity was the religion that enabled science to get off the ground - it gave the idea of a consistent God, who had made a world which functioned by fixed laws and rules, rather than changing things on a whim.

[DragonPaladin]

I'm not entirely sure if the Church was the tool that enabled science to prosper...however, let's not turn this into another one of Science vs. Religion threads. We may discuss theories, but please do not attack other theories based on opinion.

[Icarus]

The bible is an unchanging reference point, and therein lies its strength.

How is that a strength? The bible tries to suggest very profound things about the world we live in with absolutely no evidence, and with development only in it's doctrine, not evidence.

Science, on the other hand, develops it's evidence, thus changing it's doctrine, which you agree is it's strength.

I was trying to emphasise that they can't be directly compared to each other, and that one does not deny the other.

Any truly scientific analysis on god and religion will come out as implausible. Although, there is a certain definition for god that can't even be analyzed.

What I rankle at with the scientific community is that they seem to have an air of self-righteousness (much like certain Christians) that prevents them from accepting that people can believe in science and God at the same time.

Just as it is with christians, there are degrees to how scientific someone is. Someone may only employ science in their work, or their studies, while leaving the scientific thought out of their personal reflections, which is when they reflect on god. Any truly scientific thinker couldn't accept the existence of god. It's just impossible.

Science is meant to be an objective attempt to interpret the facts to discover the true nature of the universe - not (as it has so often been maligned to become) a tool for "liberating" people from religious "ignorance".

The former leads to the latter.

Slightly ironic, since Christianity was the religion that enabled science to get off the ground - it gave the idea of a consistent God, who had made a world which functioned by fixed laws and rules, rather than changing things on a whim.

Christianity pretty much dominated scientific thought when it first developed, and many many scientific thinkers were labeled as atheists and heretics because of that.

Are you familiar with galileo galilei? He had scientific support suggesting a heliocentric solar system, something the church was very opposed to. There are various parts of the bible which say that the earth does not move, and the sun rises and sets. He was condemned as a heretic, imprisoned, later under house arrest, and his works were banned. He was not allowed to defend or express support for his heliocentric views. This is only one of many scientific thinkers who were shunned/attacked/condemned by the christian church, and not all of them were restricted to the birth of scientific thought in humans. Many scientific ideas today are being attacked and hindered by christianity, such as stem cell research

That's very kind of christianity to get science off it's feet like that.

[ecyor0]

Just as it is with christians, there are degrees to how scientific someone is. Someone may only employ science in their work, or their studies, while leaving the scientific thought out of their personal reflections, which is when they reflect on god. Any truly scientific thinker couldn't accept the existence of god. It's just impossible.

And yet many serous scientists, astronomers and physicists believe in God because they see the evidence as incontravertable.

Any truly scientific analysis on god and religion will come out as implausible. Although, there is a certain definition for god that can't even be analyzed.

No, any truly scientific analysis would come out with the conclusion that it is impossible to analyse (and thereby prove/disprove) something that exists outside the physical world



Christianity pretty much dominated scientific thought when it first developed, and many many scientific thinkers were labeled as atheists and heretics because of that.

Actually, many of the first scientific scholars and researchers were monks (they didn't just spend all their time praying - they dedicated a fair proportion of their time to academic study)

Are you familiar with galileo galilei? He had scientific support suggesting a heliocentric solar system, something the church was very opposed to. There are various parts of the bible which say that the earth does not move, and the sun rises and sets. He was condemned as a heretic, imprisoned, later under house arrest, and his works were banned. He was not allowed to defend or express support for his heliocentric views. This is only one of many scientific thinkers who were shunned/attacked/condemned by the christian church, and not all of them were restricted to the birth of scientific thought in humans.

Ah yes, the oft-vaunted "Galileo vs the Church" story. I will start off by saying that indeed, the Church did brand him as a heretic, and yes, he was forced to denounce his own work, and yes he was arrested. But what people don't realise is that he was the exception, not the rule. I would recommend watcing "Terry Jones' Medieval Lives", a history series hosted by the ubiquitous Monty Python star on the middle ages - specifically the episode on The Philosopher (aka the alchemist). While the program is presented in a humorous tone, it is presenting very serious historical research and findings - including the fact that the medieval church actually encouraged scientific thought and research - and also dispelling a few preconceptions of the middle ages. Like, for instance, the idea that Columbus had a disagreement with the church, who believed that the world was flat - this never actually happened. In fact, early maps of the world, complete with dragons round the outside and God orverarching it all, depict God holding the world in his hand - and it is most definitely round.

And could you please give me a rough idea where to find a verse in the bible that says "the sun orbits the earth"? Because I have never seen one. It says the sun rises and sets - well, it does. That rising and setting is caused by the earth rotating rather than the sun, but it rises and sets all the same. I'm not sure about "the earth does not move" - again you'd have to tell me roughly where to look for that.



Many scientific ideas today are being attacked and hindered by christianity, such as stem cell research



Stem cell research, as a result of opposition to destroying embyros, has started researching the use of stem cells located in the nasal cavity (which will be cells from the donor, meaning zero risk of rejection) this can hardly be a setback, since now there is now no need to worry about not having enough embryos to continue research

And another thing....

Scientific research under Nazi germany advanced at one of the fastest paces of any point in human history. Unethical practices cannot be excused on the grounds of "it's for science and the betterment of mankind". That kind of thinking gets people killed.

Of course, there is the question of whether the use of embryonic stem cells is unethical or not, but that is a different discussion thread

[Icarus]

No problem.

Psalm 93:1, Psalm 96:10, and Chronicles 16:30 state that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved." Psalm 104:5 says, "[the LORD] set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved."

There has yet to be ANY evidence presented suggesting god exists.

OF COURSE intangible things can be analyzed! ever heard of logic? or maybe the scientific method?

It was kind of hard to be successful before, during, and after the renaissance without associating with a religion, so yeah, many people may SAY they are monks, but take gregor mendel for example. He was a monk, technically, but he rarely did any strictly religious activities, and in fact he's had many disagreements with the abbots of the monostary concerning religion. I had the pleasure of meeting one of his descendants, his great grandson I think, who actually knew personal stories about him, and he claimed that mendel was in fact not religious.

I'm having a hard time rendering any relevance in the last portion of your post...

[ecyor0]

The last portion was in response to you saying that Christianity was holding science back. I say that letting science do what it wants without thought of the ramifications is a bad call.


There has yet to be ANY evidence presented suggesting god exists.

Doesn't a highly ordered and structured universe a least suggest the possibility of a God?


Incidentally, I'm pleased to see that you aren't one of the people who say "The bible is wrong because it says this" without actually checking that it does. And you aren't taking the verses out of context, which even Christians do regularly. (Of course I would argue that these examples are songs of praise written by King David, rather than God giving truths to man, and thus the bible is not saying the earth is the center of the universe and/or fixed in place. However, the discussion has already strayed away from the initial question which was 'why are we here?' and I don't want to risk the wrath of the all-powerful Mods XD)

[BlackDefiler]

Doesn't a highly ordered and structured universe a least suggest the possibility of a God?

Highly ordered or not only depends on perspective. The universe looks highly ordered to us, but that is only a relative point of view. If there was an absolute perspective on the universe, it might not look all that complex from there. We only rely on our own limited perception when stating "it is finetuned".

Why are we here?
Ahhh.. the question that gets asked over and over in history. I say this question has absolutely no meaning, as it tries to get the only answer in the Universe that doesn't exist. What's the meaning of life? I have a better question: Why do you think that life needs a meaning so badly? I think life has absolutely zero meaning. It's only Human nature to always seek the purpose of things and that's why we can't believe that our existance itself can be without purpose.

[wenching]

Perhaps the meaning of Human life is to alleviate boredom?

Anyway I dont really subscribe to the christian point of view that God exists now and watchs us, Perhaps god did exist at some point, maybe for a split second of our time, But even if God exists now i like to prefer the point "God is to busy makeing the flowers open and the sun set to bother with humans" (from Power of one, it goes something along these lines) bessides where would god/heaven etc BE?

[lammas]

btw may I ask that why do you think there is god? You dont have any problem in being skeptical about the other 10million gods people believe around the world so why do you believe in this god? How is it any diffrent from those that you dont believe to?

[Icarus]

Doesn't a highly ordered and structured universe a least suggest the possibility of a God?

No, in fact. The concept of a god contradicts itself. The universe, however ordered can only suggest infinite existence, because every other theory falls short once the question of creation comes up.

Incidentally, I'm pleased to see that you aren't one of the people who say "The bible is wrong because it says this" without actually checking that it does. And you aren't taking the verses out of context, which even Christians do regularly. (Of course I would argue that these examples are songs of praise written by King David, rather than God giving truths to man, and thus the bible is not saying the earth is the center of the universe and/or fixed in place. However, the discussion has already strayed away from the initial question which was 'why are we here?' and I don't want to risk the wrath of the all-powerful Mods XD)

Yes, I realize it was poetry, but the verse wasn't supposed to be the support in my argument. You asked for them. Whether the bible says it or no, the church, the all-supreme dictator of the vast majority of christians at that time, held a great deal of science in check. The effects lasted hundreds of years. Thomas Paine wasn't allowed to go back to england because of his "atheistic" views, when his views were deist, just outside the christian realm.

btw may I ask that why do you think there is god? You dont have any problem in being skeptical about the other 10million gods people believe around the world so why do you believe in this god? How is it any diffrent from those that you dont believe to?

I actually asked this question on another forum and the best answer they could give me was they like it. Nonetheless, it is a crucial question, but no one wants to give a real answer for it.

The whole "purpose of life" thing is something very personal, and varies greatly between individuals, so i'm not sure if this belongs in the IR or is more suited to the members lounge.

When you talk about "why are we here" you have to elaborate on who's we. Every living thing's goal is to survive and outlast the other species. We know this because that's exactly what every mindless organism strives for, and nature aids it.

Humans, on the other hand, depend on whether you're talking on the level of entire species or just individual levels. My opinion, and I say opinion because there really is no support for this, is that Humans in the long run are meant to be the rulers of the world. Their ability, as well as the ability to experience something far more than just supremacy, that being joy, contentment, expression, etc, gives them a reason to break the natural code, and live as they do.

On the individual level, I think it's real simple. Your purpose is to find your own purpose. Do what you like, and do it a lot. Make a list of goals, and do em. Contribute positively to your species, and to your fellows. I think people dwell on this question too long.

[SgtHK]

UV is not visible light, and therefore your statement has now logic backing it.
UV rays are transferred into thermal energy when they reach something, it is the reason the sun feels warm, so all water could not take the intense full heat from the sun. And lastly, oxygen is needed to form water, so the argument fails.

Silver, all of the early self-replicating molecules easliy down when they come into contact with oxygen. We all know that oxygen is a highly reactive gas and most things that it comes into contact with are destroyed or made usless (example: iron into rust). There are even certain species of bacteria living today that cannot survive WITH oxygen. And we shouldn't breath in TOO MUCH oxygen because our lungs would fill up with liquid and we will suffocate in our own bodily fluids. Our atmosphere is composed of only 21% oxygen, the remaining 78% is unreactive Nitrogen and the last 1% is the even more unreactive Argon.

LoL. Don't believe me? Breathe in a 100% oxygen atmosphere and we'll see how long you'll survive. :)

But, somehow, the more advanced forms of life evolved ways to utilize the reactive nature of oxygen to their own advantage. Creatures which developed this new ability became stronger, smarter, and more agile because of their utilization of oxygen, although not too much.

-------------------------------------------------------------
So there are some Bible talks going on concerning the existence of life around here. Do any of you even know where the Bible came from? Noooo it's not from God for crying out loud.

The first book of the Bible, Genesis, was originally an Israelite folklore, much like most of the folklores from different cultures all around the world that tells the story of how life came to be. Some african tribal folk stories say that the world came from an egg, while some tribes of the Philippines claim that the world was originally a child of a goddess.

But the Israelites of the middle east claimed that the world was created by God within 7 days and concieved the form of man and woman with Adam and Eve. So THERE! The book of Genesis is nothing more than a simplistic explaination of how the world came to be.

And most people believe Genesis because...well...why would anyone believe a very complicated theory of science involving chemistry, astronomy, and geological changes when there is a much simpler theory involving God creating whatever he wants in just a blink of an eye.

And how did the book called the "Bible" came to be? Well, after the reign on the Roman Emperor Constantine, the newly formed Church decided to gather up text and literatures of what seemed to be the WORD OF GOD. This included the book of Genesis because the ancestors of the highest ranking members of the Church were Jewish. And Jews of the time were Israelites soooo.... as I said before....
But the Israelites of the middle east claimed that the world was created by God within 7 days and concieved the form of man and woman with Adam and Eve.

Geee...who could've thought of that, huh?

Anyways. I'm not saying that the Bible is completely bogus. Although its words are meant to be symbolic and should not be taken literally (sadly, most of us do), its teachings about how we should live our life are true in every way. It has taught countless numbers of people that living a life of Love, Honesty, Courage, Hope, Loyalty, etc, is the true path to happiness and, truly, the path to heaven.

But be warned. The most of the words of the Bible, especially the book of revelation (apocalypse) are meant to be symbolic and not literal.

[ecyor0]

Anyways. I'm not saying that the Bible is completely bogus. Although its words are meant to be symbolic and should not be taken literally (sadly, most of us do), its teachings about how we should live our life are true in every way. It has taught countless numbers of people that living a life of Love, Honesty, Courage, Hope, Loyalty, etc, is the true path to happiness and, truly, the path to heaven.

But be warned. The most of the words of the Bible, especially the book of revelation (apocalypse) are meant to be symbolic and not literal.

Thank you SgtHK. Couldn't have put it better myself (I'm always hesitant to say "it's not all literal truth, a fair amount is symbolic" because then you get people saying "ah-hah! inconsistency!")

[Oblongato]

I would suggest that the fact that the topic of god(s) comes up at all in a discussion of purpose can be attributed to the fact that many people are reluctant to take responsibility for making their own meaning.

To me it is clear that there is no meaning other than that which we as individuals create. This is evidenced by the sheer number of belief systems out there competing for devotees. For those who can't quite swallow the idea that there is no objective meaning, there are countless ready-made systems of meaning (created by other individuals) waiting for us to accept without questioning. If that sounds sarcastic, I would refer you to lammas' comment:

may I ask that why do you think there is god? You dont have any problem in being skeptical about the other 10million gods people believe around the world so why do you believe in this god? How is it any diffrent from those that you dont believe to?

To refute the claim that meaning is purely subjective, you need a pretty substantive answer to that question. I've yet to see a substantive answer, but if you've got one, I'd be happy to read it.

[SgtHK]

I would suggest that the fact that the topic of god(s) comes up at all in a discussion of purpose can be attributed to the fact that many people are reluctant to take responsibility for making their own meaning.

To me it is clear that there is no meaning other than that which we as individuals create. This is evidenced by the sheer number of belief systems out there competing for devotees. For those who can't quite swallow the idea that there is no objective meaning, there are countless ready-made systems of meaning (created by other individuals) waiting for us to accept without questioning. If that sounds sarcastic, I would refer you to lammas' comment:



To refute the claim that meaning is purely subjective, you need a pretty substantive answer to that question. I've yet to see a substantive answer, but if you've got one, I'd be happy to read it.


I think what Oblongato was trying to say was:

Since most people around the world have not been educated much about Science and how scientific theories came to be, they would prefer to believe in a system that they could easily comprehend; instead of seriously studying the theory of evolution in order to fully understand why we are here and how we came to be.

[Oblongato]

I think what Oblongato was trying to say was:

Since most people around the world have not been educated much about Science and how scientific theories came to be, they would prefer to believe in a system that they could easily comprehend; instead of seriously studying the theory of evolution in order to fully understand why we are here and how we came to be.

I think that's a related point, but science is a subject not directly related to the subject of meaning / values / purpose. Science is only a system for collecting, organizing and interpreting information. Whether we give it meaning or include the information thus collected when deciding on our purpose is individual choice.

[TheDriver]

btw may I ask that why do you think there is god? You dont have any problem in being skeptical about the other 10million gods people believe around the world so why do you believe in this god? How is it any diffrent from those that you dont believe to?
Why do we belive in only our singular god and not others? The only real awnser is our parents or guardians teaching us what thier beliefs were and to ignore all others. They learned that from there retrospective guardians and so it has been passed on since the point that various religions were passed on. In truth however we are skeptical that if there is more than one god , who controls our lives? Who is our pillar to lean on for support in times of dispair?
One could only imagine trying to appease multiple gods or another god, with different things to please differnet gods.We acknowledge one god solely for the purpose of sanity.

[Oblongato]

Why do we belive in only our singular god and not others? The only real awnser is our parents or guardians teaching us what thier beliefs were and to ignore all others. They learned that from there retrospective guardians and so it has been passed on since the point that various religions were passed on. In truth however we are skeptical that if there is more than one god , who controls our lives? Who is our pillar to lean on for support in times of dispair?
One could only imagine trying to appease multiple gods or another god, with different things to please differnet gods.We acknowledge one god solely for the purpose of sanity.

I'm not sure I consider leaning on something you can't see, touch or sense in any way - in times of despair or otherwise - is sane... In fact, you will fall down.

Saner would be to depend on yourself and the people you can trust.

But you are right, indoctrination at an early age does seem to be the way people land in one religion or another.

[ecyor0]

I'm not sure I consider leaning on something you can't see, touch or sense in any way - in times of despair or otherwise - is sane... In fact, you will fall down.

Which raises a question..... how can some christians not fall down, even when going through absolutely rotten experiences (And if fact attribute their ability to do so to their faith)?

[Icarus]

They do. They just call it "god's mystery" instead of falling down. It's all "god's plan" and one day his self-concepted son is gonna come back and make everything better. As long as you don't piss god off

[Oblongato]

Which raises a question..... how can some christians not fall down, even when going through absolutely rotten experiences (And if fact attribute their ability to do so to their faith)?

It's not christians who don't fall down, it's people in general who don't fall down. People are tough. It's just that some don't realize this and feel they need religion to help them through the tough times. As for what they attribute their survival to, people also claim they have been cured by homeopathic remedies, haunted by ghosts, and been abducted by UFOs.