Illegal Immigration: or, "Wait, what happened to democracy?"

[3Vee]

So there's been a huge fuss the last couple years in Arizona, as in most of the US Southwestern states, about illegal immigrants taking jobs, adding to the crime rate, not contributing to support of government by taxes, etc.

A couple of weeks ago, the legislature actually got off its backside and passed a bill requiring businesses to (as far as I can follow it) do background checks etc. to make sure that they're hiring only people who are legally allowed to be here. And everybody was happy.

Well, almost everybody. Businesses, especially big stores, are raising a huge fuss because it's going to cut into their profit margin and stuff because they're actually going to have to pay minimum wage. Oh, and prices are going to go up. And people are going to end up unemployed.

Nevermind that this is probably one of the more efficient pieces of legislation: if people can't get work, they'll go home. So yeah, people will be unemployed: that's the point. I'm all for capitalism in it's own proper sphere, but when businesses are messing in politics, that's bad news.

Obviously some legislation is going to benefit some people while hurting others a little bit: why can't businesses just take their lumps like the rest of us? It's not like any of the businesses that are making the real fuss are going to be seriously hurt by paying out a couple extra dollars a week: all they'd have to do would be to raise the price of everything in the store by a cent. One cent!

Alright, so I'm ranting a little, but I haven't had the corporate attempt at government actually illustrated to me before quite so closely, and it's got me riled.

[GenocideAlive]

This is probably more along the lines of IR material, but I'll respond nonetheless:

the reason that so many people throw up a fuss (esp small business) is twofold:

First, small businesses are the biggest culprits of using illegal immigrants. Multi-billion dollar corporations are watched fairly closely by the government, as it doesn't like to get cheated out of millions of dollars by underhanded dealings. Small businesses yield much fewer tax dollars and cost much more to audit due to volume (there are more of them). They can also lie much more effectively, since they can forge documentation and other things since their business tends to be less formal.

Second, many of the current residents of these states are former or current illegals. Thus, they will endlessly sympathize with the plight of their countrymen: poor, disregard for law, and loyal to money. If you try to claim that these people are criminals, drain our governmental assistance programs, and destroy property from overuse, you get a lot of hem-hawing about "they're poor" or "they just want to work for money".

Unfortunately you don't see the rest of the story, such as "they'll resort to crime if they can't find a job", "they don't deserve any more or less of a chance than the other millions of immigrants trying for citizenship", "they're uneducated", or "they create language / cultural conflicts".

Businesses don't help, either. There are signs in Texas that are entirely in Spanish. Why? Because Pepsi wants to draw the Hispanic crowd away from Coke, so they write some crap in Spanish on a sign and put a picture of some Mexicans in a low-rider up there. Because if you're Mexican, you're bound to love low-riders. Are they helping? Fuck no, they're creating an environment of amnesty for illegals and hostility from non-Mexicans. If you are from Nigeria and you got an education, learned English, American History, and the Pledge of Allegiance to immigrate legally and you have to look at a sign in Spanish designed to attract uneducated illegals, how would you feel?

[Dark_Soul74]

[...], how would you feel?
Yo estaría como un idiota. Pepsi es la orina de burros. :/

Looks like those three years of Spanish paid off, eh?

[Protogod]

Frankly I'm just shocked that there is even a debate about this. They are called "ILLEGAL Immigrants" for a reason. FFS, 'nuff said.

[The_Maker]

Frankly I'm just shocked that there is even a debate about this. They are called "ILLEGAL Immigrants" for a reason. FFS, 'nuff said.
quoted for truth.

[Kazeofwinds]

The government doesn't run this country, corporations and people with big wallets do.

Once you realize that, everything makes more sense.

[ClintonM]

holy jesus... protogod got banned!? is that even possible???

I'm as shocked as you are...

But back on topic.

Illegal Immigrants are part of what's held up this country for so long, what people don't realize is it's not only a "few dollars". Lets look at Wal-Mart as an example...

Say There are 50 illegals working at Wal-Mart that work for around 5-6 dollars an hour, now that this new bill is out in Arizona they are now out of work and the store must find legal replacements and pay them at LEAST minimum wage which, for reasons of unsureness, is 7 dollars and hour.

Now, lets do some math... 6x5 hours is $30 dollars, which is also considering that NO workers are working at the same time, which is impossible when you have 50 employees working over a 24 hour mark. Okay, now lets do the math for 7x5 hours, which is $35 dollars. You're thinking "It's only 35 dollars", but lets see how that affects a week (24x7= 168 hours). Now, for an illegal immigrants working WITHOUT overlapping times would be around $1008 a company would put out a month, however with minimum wage would be $1176. Although that doesn't seem like much of a difference it really is because this is considering that no two are working at the same time, now lets look a little more REALISTICALLY.

24\6 = 4 hour shifts, now 50 workers divided by 6 shifts would be around 8 employees (8.3~ to be exact... but we'll go with 8 ;)). So, now we have 8 employees working 4 hour shifts at a time, so now it would be 8[employees]x(6[dollars]x4[hours])=$192 per 4 hours which consists of ILLEGAL immigrants.

Now, using the same formula we find that American Citizens cost Wal-Mart $224 per four hours.

|8[employees]x(7[dollars]x4[hours]= $224 per 4 hours shifts|

ILLEGAL Immigrants = $192 per 4 hours
US Citizens = $224 per 4 hours

Now, lets look at these as per-day, per-week, per-month, per-year, and per 10-years in a side-by-side comparison.

DAILY
ILLEGAL Immigrants = $192[per four hours]x6[shifts] = $1,152
US Citizens = $224x6 = $1,344
Difference = $192

WEEKLY
ILLEGAL Immigrants = $1152[per day]x7[days] = $8,064
US Citizens = $1344x7 = $9,408
Difference = $1,344

MONTHLY
ILLEGAL Immigrants = $8064[per week]x4[~month] = $32,256
US Citizens = $9408x4 = $37,632
Difference = $5,376

YEARLY
ILLEGAL Immigrants = $32256[per month]x12[months in a year] = $387,072
US Citizens = $37632x12 = $451,584
Difference = $64,512

10 YEARS
ILLEGAL Immigrants = $387072[per year]x10[years] = $3,870,720
US Citizens = 451584x10 = $4,515,840
Difference = $645,120

No, some people may say "Yeah, but that's not that much at all for a huge corporation", but they forget, that's for ONE store. Lets see what happens when 10 stores are affected by this law, if not MORE stores...

10 Years - 10 Stores
ILLEGAL Immigrants = $3870720[per store] x 10[stores] = $38,707,200
US Citizens = $4515840x10 = $45,158,400
Difference = $6,451,200

This is an under statement for the workforce in such areas, however it does illustrate my point quite well. There would be a hell of a lot of losses for businessman when they could save themselves $1 (usually more...) per employee/hour.

It's both unjust and unfair, but looking at it as a businessman you HAVE to realize how big of a hit this would be, especially looking on a GLOBAL scale...

[singo]

Why not just make it easier to immigrate legally?

Cuts the numbers of illegals at a stroke and has the bonus that those people can then be taxed. No real downside. Just lots more citizens out to find a job. Go team economy.

The corporations would still have to pay minimum wage, but then, thats the f*ing POINT of a minimum wage.

[ClintonM]

lol singo, nice to see you havn't changed your avatar for about 3 years...

What you say is true, however it would anger EVERYONE who has gained citizenship in the past. Besides, you can earn your citizenship by joining the Marines, Army, Navy, or Air force anyway so it's not THAT difficult in actuality...

[singo]

Heh, thanks. If its not broke dont fix it.

The US immigration system (from what I have heard) is broke. Okay fixing it like I suggested would piss people off a bit, but I think that is a smaller problem than the one you seem to have at this poiont in time.

And are you suggesting making military service compulsary? Or is it only immigrants that should have to earn citizenship that way? Because surely the point of wanting citizenship is at least in part fuelled by a desire to have the same rights and responsibilities as an ordinary citizen of the country you are heading towards.

[3Vee]

Yeah, the immigration process is kind of broke, not to mention it obviously doesn't regulate anything given the number of illegals in the country. 'Nother number: citizenship paperwork down here in AZ costs the immigrant who wants to be legal $400, and is going up.

[singo]

As a side note: It always suprises me when people complain about immigration (there are those who complain about LEGAL immigration too) Surely it is nice to have it confirmed that other people think you country is good too?

[hammocksleeper]

Obviously some legislation is going to benefit some people while hurting others a little bit: why can't businesses just take their lumps like the rest of us?

You raise a great question, but the simple answer is that corporations and industry actually have the levels of organization necessary to lobby legislative and enforcement bodies effectively, unlike the common man. Why do you think special interests have such influence over Congress? Money, yes, but you take everybody in your neighborhood to Congress and you have a lot of money also -- the answer is superior organization.