Here's to people who protect there maps!

[TheEradai]

Well, i dont know what you think, but i hate them.
They are a plague to the propagation of knowledge.

Is there any way to work around the map protectors?

[Mr.Bad]

I must say I agree with you. But that isn't to say that they have good reason. The people you should really be bashing are those who would steal a map. For if they did not exist, then map protection would be unneeded.

[WarInSerbia]

I don't think that there is a way to unprotect map,but still I agree with you.
How did you get on this crazy idea anyway?

[Blacker]

Yeah,2 vers of BitN are protected,i hate doing this,but i have to,everyone told me that...

[TheEradai]

I don't think that there is a way to unprotect map,but still I agree with you.
How did you get on this crazy idea anyway?

i thought i remember some sort of a loophole thing. It would be interesting, but on the other hand, im not to sure what i would be learning from any map.

[hooded]

There are always ways to open maps.. if wc3 can read the map, so can the editor, sometimes it just takes a little doing.

Anyway, protection has its place...imagine the chaos on bnet if dota wasnt protected, every person would have their own version where theyve rigged somthing. Every time you went to play a game of DotA, elimination tournament, <insert popular protected map here> you would need to download a different version.

I dunno if youve played long enough to remember, but look at what happened to wintermaul.

Most mappers however, will disclose how things are done if you ask them, so just try emailing the maker. If that doesnt work, ask here or elsewhere how somthing from a specific map is done. The only reason I protect maps is so that ppls cant A) create their own rippoff version where theyve rigged somthing. B) Rip out skins, buttons or other imports which I have made (make your own). C) copy and paste triggers, object data, etc: this has nothing to do with learning, no more so that copying math homework rather than doing it yourself.

Moral of the story: Dont cut and paste, ask around and figure it out for yourself...thats how you actually learn.

[edwinfong25]

ok, i'm not even going to vote... :concern:
but here's my thoughts on this whole topic... :cool:

i feel that it should be up to the map-makers to decide whether or not they can trust others with their maps...
face it, they probably wish more than anything to be able to showcase their works... rather than people only looking at the gameplay of the maps...

still, you can be annoyed that they protect their maps, but then again, how would you feel if someone took your map (unprotected one) and then renamed a couple of things and then claimed it as their own? (without giving any credit to you whatsoever?) and worse... if no one would believe you that it was originally yours...
yeah, that scenario would suck... :(

but here's another scenario...
what if they didn't claim it as their own... but instead put cheats into the map so that they could never lose... then they go around trying to host that map... now everyone gets pissed that they lose... and they'd all assume that it's cuz of your map (so all the fault is now attributed to you...) :(

as such, the way i see it, there is no problem with protecting the map... (cuz there are mischievous people out there who could cause problems for you...) :confused:
but the real plague that you refer to is the fact that some people not only protect their maps but also would refuse to reveal how they do it...
cuz for me, even if i were to protect my maps, i'd answer any questions pertaining to its triggers or makings, (so long as it is logical to do so...)
so how could you blame any people like that of not allowing knowledge to spread? :concern:
(mind you, i haven't released any maps ever, as of yet... but i'm sure that a lot of people would agree that i've always tried to help in any ways that i can...) :)

so... i personally feel that you're poll is geared in the wrong direction...
you should not be against those who protect their maps, but rather those who steal others' maps, or those who refuse to help others at all... :(

Edit: hooded had typed his post at more or less the same time as mine, lol
so just keep that in mind if some of my stuff either overlap with his or just dont make sense at all, lol :)

[TheEradai]

it is true; it can be a nessecary evil, xept that sometimes it is used on crap (why i wanted to look at these, dont ask)
I had an idea for a system of quality games. You see, 95% of the stuff you see online is crap. Why not some LOAP that is actually made by Soliliquoy or DeIYIonSlayer, for example? So many games are so messed up, with hundreds of cheap clones (and not the good ones) that u dont know where to find what ur looking for.

[edwinfong25]

i dont know, man... i still think that you're looking at the whole thing in a bit of the wrong light... :concern:
i suppose that you can consider it to be a "necessary evil," but i think that it's more of an assurance factor... cuz for most mappers it is good to know that the odds that your map would be misused have been minimized... (cuz most people who know how to unprotect it usually would respect your work enough not to do anything wrong with it...)
cuz when you really think about it... isn't the whole ordeal kinda like locking the door to your house? its to protect the things that you care for... :concern:

also... in your pertaining to maps that are "crap"
first off, the fact that you're somewhat interested in looking into them kinda shows some interest of some sort?
also, whether or not a map (and its contents are "valuable" just depnds on who's looking into it...) :confused:
for example... i'm sure that the stuff that you've worked on have probably taken a lot of work, a lot of effort, and a lot of trial and error just to get it the way that you want it... (and naturally you'd feel proud of that)
but meanwhile a more experienced person knows how to do it with much less time (and probably in an even better or more advanced way...) so to them it's not a big deal, what you've done... but to you, its very important :)

(still, i can't say that for every map out there... cuz some people dont put in any effort or anything at all... and they just figure that protecting it makes it better or something... i can't vouch for those people at all... :concern:)
but i'm sure that you can understand what i'm getting at :)

[TheOutcast]

I don't care about the protection of maps, as long as
the person who downloads other people's maps doesn't
steal ideas or take the map and change some things and
call it their own creation. That just pisses me off when
plaigerism is involved!!!! So I don't agree that people should
not protect their maps.

[Basan]

Hmm, have seen this matter before (in the SC sections) and quite frankly am still leaning more towards protection than not to.

Why? Most of the fellas that really do want to learn how it was done ask the map's creator(s) or, as stated before, respect enough of the guys' work to only unprotect it to see how it was done.
The main reason that I agree with map protection is that you protect your work getting easily ripped off and not exactly the 'tech' you used to make it. And what I mean with this is that if you leave contacts on your map and are able to assist others to learn (like I've seen around in WB's and a few other sites) then maybe we can aid boosting up the map makers level so that they can do the same as we did for them later on. Call me a sissy but I 'love' knowledge and helping chains. ;)

Comparison... kinda.
Although I must agree that to learn is far easier in SC-BW where you have tools that allow you to see how triggers were made without unprotecting the map (aka Trigger Viewer). You still won't be able to see the locations involved but you can make a good guess for it when spotting the triggers and play testing the map.

I believe that a program such as this is a lot harder to make in WC3-TFT due to the multiple coding languages involved and also because of the higher options' level in triggering that each has within it (Jass or otherwise), especially when comparing to the simpler and lower capability engine that BW has. :(

[Dayoh]

I take offence to this poll, and why the hell are u bashing the people who do, your just bitching that u cant open up someones work and extract what u want.

You can go and sit on it

Oh and btw learn to fuckin map nub

[Blacker]

Ok...8)
First time i started to work on World Editor i was something like stealer.
I was working and i'm working on BitN now.
True,it was something like copy-paste,but not as usuall.

People just as you said copy hole map,change its' name,few triggers,text...
But i was learning while doing it,but map was holy shit.
After that,i didn't even touch Sid's BftC older version.

Example,in this week,i saw 2 creations of BitN,but it was 2v2 or 3v3.
People say it is not bad at all,so i could protect it.
I don't want anyone to copy my map,that's the reason

[he11g0tfi113d]

protect? why the hell should any one protect maps .........if any one changes it he still gets the credit for the ORIGINAL MAP.......i really wish i could get into one map-protecting mind and think..then i thought that hey MAPS originally created by such users must be either truly unique or people who want to steal ideas are just gay.........MAKE UR OWN MAPS .....THTS THE MESSAGE!!!!

[edwinfong25]

protect? why the hell should any one protect maps .........if any one changes it he still gets the credit for the ORIGINAL MAP.......i really wish i could get into one map-protecting mind and think..then i thought that hey MAPS originally created by such users must be either truly unique or people who want to steal ideas are just gay.........MAKE UR OWN MAPS .....THTS THE MESSAGE!!!!

but that's the thing... some people change all occurances of the original maker's name... therefore making it seem like it was not the original maker's map at all... :(
or some people make rigged versions, and then every hates your map cuz of obvious reasons... :(

you know, when you really think about it... there's always going to be two sides to this argument... and neither argument actually overwhelms the other... its kinda just accepted that people can protect their maps...
and in the end... all of us will look at it in whatever way we wish it... :concern:

but remember one main thing, regardless whether the maps are protected or not, the main reason that people ask about it (supposedly) are to learn... :confused:
but still... that's why all of these forums were made... (people can help each other out and whatnot...) ;)
(i say this cuz regardless how long this thread goes on for... it's quite plainly obvious that we're not going to get anywhere... and the arguments can't really change much... and nothing much would change pertaining to the fact of whether or not people protect their maps...) :concern:

[Basan]

It's the creators personal choice in the end. ;)
Some will prefer to protect maps and teach others how they did it and others go open source leaving it available for whomever wishes... some merely look to learn/see how it was made :tup:, others to 'simply' bastardize the map. :tdown:

[Kildare]

I pretty much agree that we should be ABLE to protect our maps. Like some of you guys said, there are just too many plagiarist and cheaters around to release your map without any protection, unless you have such overwhelming confidence in the complexity of your triggers that you believe people will not be able to mess with the map.

It's pretty much something like an "anti-piracy" assurance thing. As an aspiring game designer myself, i would pretty much hate to see fake copies/stolen ideas of my own game being sold and credited for someone else's benefit.

For me, i treat my maps like i would treat my own future games. That's why i use map protection. If game designers are allowed to "protect" their games, why can't we?

[TheEradai]

dayoh, I take offence at what you say. If you read another post of mine, you would see that I understand that there is a nessecity.

I exxagerated in good humor, not to be angry. My overall point is I lament that there has to be map protection.

Now, one of the biggest reasons there are so many terrible clones of maps out there is because the players who host the maps dont have much respect for the quality. They find any version of something and then host it, and the good versions become but one in a hundred.

And one more thing dayoh, have you ever seen ANYTHING I MADE? My sources of learning were from Warchasers, the Sheepdodger, and Monolith. Other maps had a minimal influence on me, since I only take the broadest concept to then find how i can make something completely new.

[bomber7]

Most of you guys are missing a point. Protecting the map can also drastically reduce map size! That is 80% of the reason I protect every map that I send out onto the web. Also many times people fail to get credit for making a map of their own then leavening it unprotected. I mean just look at loap! Who first made an unthemed version of loap? No one really knows and those who do end up arguing with others... Its a truly sad story. This is why I protect maps. Its true the decent people never steal other peoples maps. But how many people in life can you trust to be 100% decent? Not enough to make a difference, thats for sure!

[edwinfong25]

hmm... a few things... :concern:
the way i see it... it might have been meant in good humor... but quite frankly the choices presented were quite one sided... and not that humorous... :(
still... i dont think that we need to turn to arguing over it... :concern:

and actually, there are options to merely reduce the map size...
but you have to notice that a lot of people dont just choose to use this... (they have the option to protect and they do...)

[Kildare]

edwin, we're just talking about the benefits of using Map Protection, not Map Optimization, else we'd have brought it up as well.

[bomber7]

Actually its my fault for bringing that up. Also its true you can just optimize the map without protecting it but thats not as efficient. Like you could leave the wtg file there but its generally a good 600 kb. Also during obfuscation you get rid of sometimes 50 - 100 kb. Depending how many gui triggers there are. Its definitely worth the lessening in size to protect the map.

[uberfoop]

Hell yeah protect the map.

No matter how much you want to debate this philosophically about the spread of information out there, for all practical purposes most of the people on bnet who think they are 1337 are going to take your unprotected map, add the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a 'Dragostea din tei' mp3 and post it on epicwar.com. When this happens, nobody can tell the good from the bad, which is why you get all that crap everywhere. Not that this example is one which I complain about, cuz I hate DotA in all it's poorly designed glory, but we can all probably remember how that mass spread of new fake DotA versions, especially the 6.44 one, made the dota team flip out.

Besides, protection usualy means vex's optimizer, which reduces map size by a decent amount depending on the map design. Furthermore, after Vex's optimizer, you can toss in a little widgetizer for MUCH faster loading time (Widgetizer reduced dota's loading time back after Guinsoo left from like 5 years to 30 seconds).


Unprotection is for maps which you intend for the content to be copied elsewhere. If someone wants to know how something was done they can go to any forum.

[Sid]

Well, dropping here today, I read this up.
Well, yes... People should protect their maps... No matter what.

Ofc, you can leave some maps Unprotected, Like I left few of my maps.

And yes, look at what we did with BftC, as we upgraded, we released the unprotected copies of previous versions, making it easier for some of the mappers here. It helped them a lot, and this is a nice system that everyone should try.

[TheOutcast]

I take offence to this poll, and why the hell are u bashing the people who do, your just bitching that u cant open up someones work and extract what u want.

You can go and sit on it

Oh and btw learn to fuckin map nub
I totally agree!