Space, the Final Frontier...

[DarkMirror]

Now, assume for a moment that in the future we discover how to cryogenically freeze people. We also learn how to make either Light-speed engines or FTL engines (As unlikely as that may seem…), and that we put two and two together.

I am sure that one of the first things that we would do would be to colonise other planets in our solar system. Say, we figure out either how to make good quality colonies, or teraforming existing planets into a form more habitable for human life.

I am also sure that other countries, or what ever they evolve into, would eventually decide to send members of their society to other star systems. They would choose those most devoted to their ideals to go on these colony ships, so as that the colony and country that evolves on the planet that they are sent to is as similar to the one that sent them as possible. (Keep in mind that unless FTL engines are invented, keeping a constant hold of these new worlds would be very difficult, although they could still provide resources via a constant stream of supply ships going back and forth, although even this would be slow.)

Now, with all of these assumptions, we could also theorize that somewhere else out there, another planet has also had a series of accidents that lead to life, and that this life could evolve into fairly intelligent beings. No doubt they would be very different from us, and would perceive the world in a different manner as well.

Now, please realize that the major gains from colonizing new worlds are twofold. Firstly, They could provide resources that have been all but exhausted in our own solar system, and secondly they could provide more room for a rapidly expanding population. (If our current state of affairs is anything to go on.) With both of these gains taken into account, you must realize that they could most definitely be the same for other space faring, intelligent life as well, provided that they have some sort of instinct to reproduce and grow. (There could be species that believes in a constant population.)

If we were to, in the near infinite reaches of our galaxy, run into one of these theoretical species, what would happen? If we had found other, simple, even bacteriological life on other planets, this might just be the next logical step. It would still be a large leap, however. Whatever the case, I am sure that whatever colony encountered them would at least try to make friendly contact, unless they evolved from a very warlike political party. There are several scenarios.

Number one: Aliens are peaceful and Humans are peaceful. Friendly contact.
Number two: Aliens are peaceful and Humans are warlike. Unfriendly contact.
Number three: Aliens are warlike and Humans are peaceful. Unfriendly contact.
Number four: Aliens are so incomprehensible that we cannot even begin to understand them. This results in either a miscalculated attack, or the aliens simply leave.

Note that any of these scenarios could possibly result in a message being sent to the nearest station of humanity, possibly one of the ones founded by the motherland of the contacted colony.
How would this change the world? What would our reactions be when we discover that we are not alone?

As I mentioned before, any alien life could have similar drives as our own, which would be to expand and spread ourselves.
If we did meet another alien race, That would mean that our territories, and thus our space for expansion, would be impacted by the presence of this alien race, who would most certainly not want to give up their hard owned planets.

Would we be able to coexist? Would we go our separate ways, never to bother them again, or would one of the more hostile nation-states decide that they wanted those planets, and would take them by any means necessary? What if the aliens thought that way?

Basically, I want you to discuss the political impacts of not only expanding into space and colonizing other worlds, but how we would interact with any theoretical aliens out there.

[bouncl]

We will try to kill them. Somewhere someone is going to perceive them as a threat and will try to kill them (I'm talking about the whole of humanity) because not only is that human, it is natural. eliminate competition. secure well being. And in killing them, we ourselves may get killed, but I see nothing less than war with any other sentient species. Even if we discover bacteria, someone will perceive a threat. and so, I believe humans are destined to be alone in the galaxy not because that we are the only sentient species, but because we will make sure we are alone. Or we ourselves will die.

[BlackDefiler]

A very accurate assumption. IMO humanity needs someone to exterminate as much as a peace of bread. It's in our genes. Our race is destened to destroy. Hell we even slaughter our own kind in our rage and bloodlust. I sure wouldn't like to be in the skin of an alien race once we meet it under balanced technological circumstances.

[CrazyTom]

To be honest, the possibilities for non-terrestrial life are postively staggering. They could be creatures that live in gas giants, evolving under impossibly high pressures so they consist more of gas than solid matter - like loose amoebas if you will. If such creatures attained sentience and we encountered them, there would probably be little reason for fighting because they live in a completely different environment to us - they wouldn't need the same resources or living space. As for cultural interactions, the thought processess of creatures that evolved in a truly three-dimensional environment (as oppossed to ours, which barring exceptions is kind of two-d) would be nigh-on inscrutable. Their mathematics, materials sciences, biologies and societies would be so wildly different from ours we might not even notice them.

Or, on earth-like worlds (or 'm-types', as Star Trek so helpfully calls them ;) ) we mgiht find species not too dissimilar to us in terms of physiology. They might have brains a similar size to ours, hands with opposable thumbs, limbs adapted for similar purposes to ours. If we encountered a species that lived in the same environments as we do, and used the same resources, it's entirely possible that we might end up fighting over those same resources.

Both of the above ideas have been (in one form or another) seen on our own world. We competed with Neanderthals and several other species of Homo several million years ago, or so I understand it. We wiped them out because although they needed the same resources as us, our species was superior.

But tube worms, which live down in the oceans at depths where we'd be crushed into mush, are unlikely to suffer the same fate. They need different resources, they live in different environments - there's no reason we couldn't coexist peacefully with a species with such profound differences to us.

Then there's a third possibility, which is possibly more depressing. We meet an alien species and though we don't live in the same environments as them or need the same resources, our biological, societal and cultural excretions could be harmful to them, resulting in a war to save themselves from our waste. A possible representative of this type of life on earth could be species like birds that get killed in our oil spills.

And then again the same could happen to us. A species of some kind of vacuum-capable creature, perhaps evolved from exotic minerals could reproduce by setting off surpernovas and riding the solar winds with radiation-resistant sails into space. A species like this could pick our sun for their next breeding frenzy and kill us without even noticing we were there.

Then there's stuff so esoteric it's beyond our comprehension. There are theories that speculate about the fluctuations in the vacuum of space itself - if these fluctuations acquired order, and patterns (possibly through gravitational influences) we could end up with sentience embedded in the vacuum itself. The engines of whatever space-capabable craft we use would probably serve to disrupt those gravitational fluctuations.

You know what? Go and read 'Space' by Stephen Baxter. It will open your mind.

[Sauvastika]

Will the colonization of space begin at a national level or at a global level?

That's the first pressing question. If humanity begins colonization at a national level, competition would invariably rise between the space-faring nations and humanity would begin its star trek on a bellicose note. Any other sentient species that come into contact with us would be sucked into the competition. This, however, does not preclude humanity from becoming peaceful (more on that later). However, if humanity unites as a singular entity, the push into space would naturally be more peaceful, as it would not begin competitively.

Think about it in Cold War terms. The space race began on a competitive level between the US and the USSR and there was a real fear that space would become militarized. However, it did not. Humanity proved its ability to check itself to save itself (Outer Space Treaty). Humans aren't too stupid, we know that survival can come through force or through diplomacy. Today, we have a small, international effort to explore space. Peacefulness has been the undercurrent of this whole effort.

What would happen if we were to come in contact with a similar alien species? That's the second pressing question.

It's a scenario that could be compared to Europeans/native inhabitants during the Age of Exploration. If we are stronger, then we would begin to dominate them, if we are weaker, then we'll do what we can to please them or leave them alone, if they're a peaceful species. If we're on relatively equal terms, we'll try to co-exist and maintain a balance of power (Metternich, maybe?).

Is it to say that we may never peacefully co-exist with a similar alien specie? No. If the UN is any indication of things to come, then competing nations or species may be able to put aside differences to work together. Wars may still erupt, but there will still be a visible effort to peacefully co-exist.

We don't know how aliens act. We don't know what will happen. But if our history is any indication of how we will act if we make contact, then I have the utmost faith in humanity.

[Geckat]

This is just sort of a spin-off of the UFO thread, but I'll go along with it.

I think the human race is completely capable of universal peace, as long as it's encouraged. If the idea of GI-Joe in his muscle suit and his M-16 continues to fascinate people, and the notion that the fastest, most efficient way of getting what you want is to kill someone else who has it continues to thrive in politics and in the minds of commoners, we will never release what many take to be an inherant bloodlust. However, I believe it's not inherant, as there have been several Native American tribes (such as the Sioux tribes, and some Central/South American peoples) that have lived in perfect harmony, without even considering war.

So I think that if by the time we do miraculously discover perpetual motion, and breach the laws of physics and quantum theory to reach some intelligent alien life that just so happens not to be a bunch of apes whipping sticks at each other over a banana, we will have to have united as a global community and the idea of war and physical conflict will be a thing of the past and probably looked upon as we look upon the idea of human sacrifice. Sorry, no StarCraft :P . The 'games' can be a Terran and Protoss playing a round of checkers.

[SilverCrusader]

Sorry, there is no way ever to break the laws of mathematics, or in other words; physics. since we can figure out mathematic equations in other dimensions than we can't violate those laws becuase they apply to all dimensions, no matter how hard you try, you can't do it.

For some reason, most movies depict aliens as a super advanced race that wants to destroy mankind, but for some reason, if we ever meet aliens. WE might be the ones that are more advanced, or even on the same technological level.
However, if we can't find aliens in our entire Universe, it proves that God exists.
But, if the aliens we're truly intelligent, they would wait for us to kill ourselves off, not try and kill us.

[sdbolts11]

Dark Mirror. You are right in some ways. However, the closest star is Alpha Centauri is 4.3 lightyears away. If we ever within the next two or three millenia create Light-speed engines (the fastest speed of matter), it would still take 4.3 years just to get to the nearest star system. Constantly updated magnification technology to the Hubble Telescope and other deep-space observers have not spotted any planets in the star system. Also, aliens in gas giants? Every planet and its moons have been examined over and over by space observers that have landed on terrestrial planets and travel through the gas giants, as well as their moons. It is concluded that the only outer space body in the Solar System that could possibly have any life is Europa, the ice moon of Jupiter. However, this is almost completely doubtful. In sustaining human life, there is no chance obviously, as with any other celestial body out there. It has also been confirmed that there are two asteroid belts. One outside of Mars and another outside of Neptune. It has been theorized that Pluto is the largest and most innermost of the outer belt. Assuming we ever make Light-speed spacecraft, and somehow have the fuel, etc. to make it to Alpha Centauri, in the impossible chance that there is any alien life, never mind intelligent alien life, they would apprehend the space travelers and would easily overpower any military personnel with them. It's like a single Spanish galleon in the Age of Exploration landing in the savage and were all killed. Even though that ship was mostly soldiers, still that few cannot stand up to a whole population. It wasn't until they send a larger fleet that they gained a strong foothold in the country. The same thing happened with teh Spanish encounters with the Aztecs and Incas. It wasnt until they built even a kind of sizeable, even though still very small, army to take on the natives. So then our space voyagers would be killed, especially if the alien life forms are animals and not intelligent. They would be far out of any contact with Earth or anything, so they would just be considered lost. I see it unlikely though that we can support an army for 4.3 years without any resources or anything to support them. so scratch out having an army go and conquer the aliens.

[DarkMirror]

How do you assume that they would kill us? if they are intelligent, they might be as astunded as we would be to encounter them. If they are animals, we could figure out thier instincts and thus learn to avoid them killing us.

[bouncl]

Dark Mirror. You are right in some ways. However, the closest star is Alpha Centauri is 4.3 lightyears away. If we ever within the next two or three millenia create Light-speed engines (the fastest speed of matter), it would still take 4.3 years just to get to the nearest star system. Constantly updated magnification technology to the Hubble Telescope and other deep-space observers have not spotted any planets in the star system. Also, aliens in gas giants? Every planet and its moons have been examined over and over by space observers that have landed on terrestrial planets and travel through the gas giants, as well as their moons. It is concluded that the only outer space body in the Solar System that could possibly have any life is Europa, the ice moon of Jupiter. However, this is almost completely doubtful. In sustaining human life, there is no chance obviously, as with any other celestial body out there. It has also been confirmed that there are two asteroid belts. One outside of Mars and another outside of Neptune. It has been theorized that Pluto is the largest and most innermost of the outer belt. Assuming we ever make Light-speed spacecraft, and somehow have the fuel, etc. to make it to Alpha Centauri, in the impossible chance that there is any alien life, never mind intelligent alien life, they would apprehend the space travelers and would easily overpower any military personnel with them. It's like a single Spanish galleon in the Age of Exploration landing in the savage and were all killed. Even though that ship was mostly soldiers, still that few cannot stand up to a whole population. It wasn't until they send a larger fleet that they gained a strong foothold in the country. The same thing happened with teh Spanish encounters with the Aztecs and Incas. It wasnt until they built even a kind of sizeable, even though still very small, army to take on the natives. So then our space voyagers would be killed, especially if the alien life forms are animals and not intelligent. They would be far out of any contact with Earth or anything, so they would just be considered lost. I see it unlikely though that we can support an army for 4.3 years without any resources or anything to support them. so scratch out having an army go and conquer the aliens.

OK, first of all, the Aztecs did almost nothing to the Spanish, the first Spanish fleet left of its own volition, then next one wiped out a "reception party" of something like 10,000 Aztecs, then proceeded to destroy the empire. It was because of the technology, so basically, your right, however the Aztec/Spanish comparison does not work, also (and I'm no physicist) but isn't space curved? if there were a way to tear a hole in space couldn't we travel faster?

[sdbolts11]

We have spotted stars up to hundreds of light years away. That means that matter would tear holes in space and would move much faster, then it would be several hundred light years away. No. light moves at a constant speed. The speed of light is the fastest speed of any matter, as proven by Einstein and every successor who has experimented with it. Also, Dark Mirror, those aliens would most likely capture the humans and do tests on them, until they die. They'd be little more than lab monkeys. No one on Earth would know what is going on so take it from there.

[SilverCrusader]

light moves at a constant speed
through one substance that is.
light moves at a constant speed
Light is not matter, it is energy, a form of EM radiation
Einstein and every successor who has experimented with it
Einstien wasn't a scientist, he did not expiriment on light, he was a physicist, he formulated theories using mathematics.
Also, Dark Mirror, those aliens would most likely capture the humans and do tests on them, until they die. They'd be little more than lab monkeys. No one on Earth would know what is going on so take it from there.
Much too big of a stereotype, the aliens nature would have to be very curious to do so.
Yes, it is possible to open wormholes and go places in space, however, we lack the energy needed to enable such a feat. It would take millenia's of advancements to enable space-time technology, by that time we will be on par with the protoss.

[sdbolts11]

I don't know. I'm sure you would know Silver, but can't blackholes warp matter to other places in space? and do wormholes exist, or are they just a sci-fi creation? However, if Einstein did not perform any experiments, in later years, MANY MANY MANY have been done based on his calculations, and all have proven the speed of light. also, if the speed of light is not a constant, then why is it called the "speed of light"? also this link says so too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_light
the speed of light is actually 186,282.397 miles per second, but is usually rounded down to 186,000 mps. However, you are right Silver.
"When passing through a transparent or translucent material medium, like glass or air, light will have a slower speed than in a vacuum."
Why is it called just the "speed of light" then? Does that term refer to when light is traveling through a vacuum like space and is at top speed?

[DarkMirror]

Again, why wouyld the aliens in questiuon just expirement on us until we die? would they not instead questiuon us, and try to understand us without keeping us in cages? If we can travel; the stars, wouldnt they realise we were intelligent?

[SilverCrusader]

wormholes indefinatly exist, if we can manipulate that, than the aliens that conduct expirements on us are very much screwed.

[BlackDefiler]

There is no proof of Balck holes warping matter somewhere else. As a matter of fact as far as we know, they just "consume it" compressing it into microscopic volume. I think what you had in mind is called the Einstein-Rosen bridge. Theoretically space can be warped using this technology and molded together thus making distances shorter. But if I remember it right, to make a "wormhole" (as this procedure is better known) we would need as much energy as the Sun emmits in 1 million years, and we would still be unable to control where the exit will manifest itself.

[SilverCrusader]

Yes, exactly, that is the reason we cannot do it.
Oh, and you know the baffling things like light that we think of from a 4-dimensional perspective?
They are relatively easy to understand from a 5-dimensional perspective.
You should read a few books on the hypercube theory or superstring theory.

[sdbolts11]

Oooo. That's a lot of energy Defiler. How/where would we even store that assuming we had the energy? So, guess we cant do it :/ yes, silver, I guess I should read up on this stuff.

[bouncl]

You guys should read homeward bound, it's a thinker disguised as Sci-Fi

[SilverCrusader]

ever read StarDragons? It is a great scifi book that relates to this topic very very well.

[TheListener]

This entire discussion is purely speculative. Whose to say that the aliens do not behave exactly like us? Showing empathy and kindness? Whose to say their technology is about as advanced as harnessing clubs to attack small alien creatures for food? There are literally an infinite number of possible scenarios and choosing just one - and evolving a situation from that, is both moot and inaccurate.

[bouncl]

No one, so you must prepare for the worst

[TheListener]

No one, so you must prepare for the worst

Prepare!? What prepare!? The chances of there being intelligent life in this universe, of it being able to travel across the almost infinite expanse of the universe, of finding us and making contact with us is so immeasureably small that once can't even note it down as a possibility.

You should spend your time preparing for more native and real issues. Why prepare for an alien invasion when there are issues facing human beings which are potentially worse than any alien invention.

[SilverCrusader]

Because, we'll be the ones invading. Who knows, we might be the most advanced race in the universe.

[bouncl]

alos, preparing for an alien invasion can be the same as preparing for a war, stockpiling weapons, food, advancing in technology and other various and sundry enterprises

[CrazyTom]

Why bother when we can't even feed everyone on the planet? There are perhaps slightly more pressing issues that need to be addressed at home, before we can look out at someplace else.

[DarkMirror]

This assuming all of nthat has been fixed. I dont want this to turn into a "But the are nto aliens worry about home." thread.

[sdbolts11]

This thread is kind of about space, not necessarily aliens. Yes, there is nothing pointing to existence of any intelligent beings outside of Earth, never mind any life. However, there could be. It is very ambiguous in how it can go. Anyways, assuming that the speed of light is the fastest speed anything can travel, we will most likely never find any alien life forms out there. Earth will be humanity's home. Anyways, before trying to find and inhabit new planets, we should be worrying about our own first, both socially among the people and with the environment. I think though, space exploration is quite intriguing and the reason why so much money goes into it. Much more research and technology is required just to reach Mars, never mind anywhere else... Even reaching the moon is quite a huge mission. That's like manned missions' limit. Then the robotic space observers have gone as far as Pluto and the asteroid belt that Pluto is supposedly a part of. Even there, that's just our star system, one out of the billions that exist in the Milky Way Galaxy alone. I am very interested in why there are so many star and possible planetary systems. There could be aliens, but should/could we know? We just have to be patient and listen to any news that comes up about further developments in space exploration.

[bouncl]

This thread is kind of about space, not necessarily aliens. Yes, there is nothing pointing to existence of any intelligent beings outside of Earth, never mind any life. However, there could be. It is very ambiguous in how it can go. Anyways, assuming that the speed of light is the fastest speed anything can travel, we will most likely never find any alien life forms out there. Earth will be humanity's home. Anyways, before trying to find and inhabit new planets, we should be worrying about our own first, both socially among the people and with the environment. I think though, space exploration is quite intriguing and the reason why so much money goes into it. Much more research and technology is required just to reach Mars, never mind anywhere else... Even reaching the moon is quite a huge mission. That's like manned missions' limit. Then the robotic space observers have gone as far as Pluto and the asteroid belt that Pluto is supposedly a part of. Even there, that's just our star system, one out of the billions that exist in the Milky Way Galaxy alone. I am very interested in why there are so many star and possible planetary systems. There could be aliens, but should/could we know? We just have to be patient and listen to any news that comes up about further developments in space explorationNo I think it is, look below.
Now, with all of these assumptions, we could also theorize that somewhere else out there, another planet has also had a series of accidents that lead to life, and that this life could evolve into fairly intelligent beings. No doubt they would be very different from us, and would perceive the world in a different manner as well.

Now, please realize that the major gains from colonizing new worlds are twofold. Firstly, They could provide resources that have been all but exhausted in our own solar system, and secondly they could provide more room for a rapidly expanding population. (If our current state of affairs is anything to go on.) With both of these gains taken into account, you must realize that they could most definitely be the same for other space faring, intelligent life as well, provided that they have some sort of instinct to reproduce and grow. (There could be species that believes in a constant population.)

If we were to, in the near infinite reaches of our galaxy, run into one of these theoretical species, what would happen? If we had found other, simple, even bacteriological life on other planets, this might just be the next logical step. It would still be a large leap, however. Whatever the case, I am sure that whatever colony encountered them would at least try to make friendly contact, unless they evolved from a very warlike political party. There are several scenarios.

Number one: Aliens are peaceful and Humans are peaceful. Friendly contact.
Number two: Aliens are peaceful and Humans are warlike. Unfriendly contact.
Number three: Aliens are warlike and Humans are peaceful. Unfriendly contact.
Number four: Aliens are so incomprehensible that we cannot even begin to understand them. This results in either a miscalculated attack, or the aliens simply leave.

Note that any of these scenarios could possibly result in a message being sent to the nearest station of humanity, possibly one of the ones founded by the motherland of the contacted colony.
How would this change the world? What would our reactions be when we discover that we are not alone?

As I mentioned before, any alien life could have similar drives as our own, which would be to expand and spread ourselves.
If we did meet another alien race, That would mean that our territories, and thus our space for expansion, would be impacted by the presence of this alien race, who would most certainly not want to give up their hard owned planets.

Would we be able to coexist? Would we go our separate ways, never to bother them again, or would one of the more hostile nation-states decide that they wanted those planets, and would take them by any means necessary? What if the aliens thought that way?

Basically, I want you to discuss the political impacts of not only expanding into space and colonizing other worlds, but how we would interact with any theoretical aliens out there.

[DarkMirror]

Exactly. This is about aliens.

[sdbolts11]

May have gotten it mixed up with another topic. Anyways, looking at the topic name, Space, the Final Frontier, I don't really see how it relates to aliens. But, Dark Mirror is the topic creator and confirms it and I have been discussing about aliens, just wasn't sure if it was off-topic or not. Thanks anyways.

[bouncl]

Your Welcome NOT! no really, your welcome :D

[SilverCrusader]

back to topic guys, I think we should think about more exotic ideas for "aliens."

[BlackDefiler]

In general, there are two possibilities.

1. Every single lifeform on Earth has the same genetical "codebook" meaning that the same triplets of nucleotids translate to the same amino acids in everyone. For example the triplet AUG is translated to a Metionin in humans and elephants and ants and bacteria and oak trees etc. From this perspective, we may assume, that this might be the only way of carbon based life to exist, since there is not a single lifeform on the planet which could be excluded form this "law". This would lead to the possible aliens out there to be at least something like us (ie: the very popular grey or green people stuff). In this case the future of the races is a matter of diplomacy.

2. This is the more radical, but very likely option. I've read a book from the philosofer Paul Davis were he speaks of this possibility. If the alien life is on a completely different basis than ours, than the differences could be so great that we wouldn't even know that those are lifeforms, not to mention intelligent. They could be right under our nose, but we couldn't recognise eachother.

[sdbolts11]

I would agree with the first possibility, assuming there was life outside of Earth. So then I would assume that any aliens out there would have a similar genetic makeup and bodily functions to Earth creatures. They would most likely be filled with oxygen and hydrogen (water), calcium, carbon, nitrogen, phosphourous, etc. Would that be on the right track of what that first possibility is shooting at?

[DarkMirror]

Why do you assume that everything would evolve the same we we did, or rather, closly resmbling our pattern? All life on earth is similar becasue we all evolved from the same things. Hell, the first multicelled creature was the Sea sponge.

[sdbolts11]

Evolution is actually strictly theory, and many parts of it have been proven wrong. Not to bring in religion, but I believe in Creation, which is not proven fully correct either. Anyways, from a scientific standpoint minus evolution or creation, all Earth creatures have related bodily functions/chemical makeup/genetic makeup. Again, crossing out evolution and creation, no one could expect what the above said things will be in alien lifeforms.

[DarkMirror]

How have many parts of Evolution been proven wrong? Thats the most bullshit thing I have ever heard.

[bouncl]

How have many parts of Evolution been proven wrong? Thats the most bullshit thing I have ever heard.


Its a closely gaurded secret of us creationists :P ( actually I dont want to write out a long post)

[sdbolts11]

Very true :p. Shhh, bouncl don't tell them the secret of creation.

[SilverCrusader]

Actually, a guy did make a fake skeleton to connect a large missing link, but they found out it was a fraud, that was way way back then though.
This isn't religion vs. science, that is way to heated of a debate, lets stick to the topic.

[bouncl]

Ok!....

[SilverCrusader]

Who ever thought that these creatures had to even be humanlike in height?
They could be towering giants... or hobbits :O

[BlackDefiler]

Yes, that's a point as well. These are the reasons I can't believe that there are aliens in area 51. The pictures and videos about the grey people lack creativity soooo much that only some uneducated jobless idiots could have come up with it in the first place, and (beats me how this was possible) somehow the world ate that thing :o

[SilverCrusader]

People are idiots, thats how.
They could be made of liquid, or plasma O.o

[EvilEggCracker]

That's also bullcrap. There's just as much chance that Aliens do look like Greys than "plasma". I personally believe that Area 51 houses something the American Government doesn't want found out. Whether aliens or not... *shrug*

[sdbolts11]

Um.. Silver, you just said people were idiots, then you say that. Most military bases have higher security than Area 51, and I in the 0% of aliens, assuming there are any, reaching Earth (see some of my other posts in other IR topics, which talks about speed of light as fastest speed and closest stars/planets, etc.), they would not all come to the US. DUR!! W/e, this topic is making no sense. BTW, Silver, this is what plasma is, "the liquid part of blood or lymph, as distinguished from the suspended elements." Yes, humans are made to a great extent of plasma. Plasma is not some sci-fi biohazardous, destructive laser/energy sort of thing like in Descent or other sci-fi games.

[BlackDefiler]

Oh, man! You are talking about biological plasmas.

There is phisical plasma as well. It's a type of material state that occures when certain substances reach so high temperatures that atoms break into subatomic particles, creating a state that resembles mostly liquid, but has it's own characteristics.

By the way plasma weapons are not sci-fi at all. They already exist. Metallic plasmas can be captured in electromagnetic fields (they cannot touch any non-plasma substance 'cause they would eat through it instantly so they are kept hovering inside this EM field, then using another strong impulse of energy they can be rapidly moved or "shot" if you like it that way. Their temperatures are around a few hudred million celsius, that means 20 times hotter then the core of the Sun. Once it touches anything it heats it up accordingly, disassembling its molecular structure. The technology isn't used because it's so unimaginably expensive and complicated, that it's not worth the effort. Yet.

[DarkMirror]

Lightning is plasma.

But agin, thius tread is baout aliens, and what we do if we meet them.

[sdbolts11]

Kill them and then do scientific experiments on them and catalog them into our collected species studies, biological studies, etc.

[DarkMirror]

Why kill them? why not ry to communicate with them? I want something a little more substancial.

[Toucan]

Thinking about it, it is hard to imagine why there would be an interstellar war with an alien race. 100's of millions of star systems and they have to take ours to live or vice versa?
Meeting a peaceful advanced race with as much history, art and culture as there is here on earth is about the most fascinating thing I could imagine.

[bouncl]

Thinking about it, it is hard to imagine why there would be an interstellar war with an alien race. 100's of millions of star systems and they have to take ours to live or vice versa?
Meeting a peaceful advanced race with as much history, art and culture as there is here on earth is about the most fascinating thing I could imagine.

I bleieve we where talking about the period of time when humanity was rapidly expanding to many planets. Not the present.

[sdbolts11]

Expanding to many planets will never happen. Unless he find out how to make Mars habitable, don't count on it, I have said why many times before.

[SilverCrusader]

We have, it is called "Teraforming."
So it is all possible.

[sdbolts11]

"Terraforming," as in on Earth is very possible and something several nations use (i hear Egypt does, some of that sandy desert is turning into grassland :/, something i heard, maybe true or not). On Mars, we would have to create an atmosphere first. That has nothing to do with terraforming, which only has to do with changing the terrain. Once we miraculously create an atmosphere, there's no water for anything to live except the water in ice at the polar caps. Now let's assume there was water, then we got all this red dust, no soil, so how the hell do we terraform just dust and rock :O gg. BTW, the primary reason is so habitable is that there's SO MUCH WATER!!!!!!!!!, like all water, not just drinking water obviously. Doesn't water make up something like 70% of the Earth's surface? How is it in Mars? 0%? (obviously not counting polar ice caps, which don't count).

[Ragnarox]

Terraforming...

Even without atmosphere its possible, I mean how do we think planets gained their atmosphere at the beginning of their formation? Volcanoes would do a job on a planet, whip us up some atmosphere in no time (meaning thousands of years).

Oh wait, but a planet has to have a molten iron core to maintain a magnetosphere which is critical for an atmosphere. Crap. And supposedly the core of Mars has hardened, which means, well I guess we better melt it. Oh wait...

How is it in Mars? 0%? (obviously not counting polar ice caps, which don't count).

Well, the Mars polar caps are actually made of dry ice (carbon dioxide) although there is a theory that water exists underneath them.

[SilverCrusader]

I just realized according to Einstien's theory of special relativity, it would be impossible to travel at light speed without infinite energy (we can travel 99.9% though), so wormholes are our best bet.
Actually NASA has found a planet that much like Earth albeit a little cooler, it is really far away, but they think it would be an ideal planet to have life on it.

[Ragnarox]

I just realized according to Einstien's theory of special relativity, it would be impossible to travel at light speed without infinite energy

Hence forth why it is a theory. We don't know if that is true yet, and according to quantum mechanics and tachyon particles, it's not. Lets not jump the gun too quickly here.

Actually NASA has found a planet that much like Earth albeit a little cooler, it is really far away, but they think it would be an ideal planet to have life on it.

Source please?

[Icarus]

Ragnarox, the term "thoery" in science is something totally different to "theory" elsewhere. A scientific theory is basically an extremely important understanding concept covering a large area of science that has been proven time and time again.

[PaiN]

lol. Talking about what aliens we encounter and what not, I just thought it would be really cool, of course this is virtually impossible, but life on another planet happened exactly the same as it did in Earth (as in species) and we liek find this planet and theres liek dinosaurs on it.


lol i know that retarded but that would be so cool.

lol dinosaurs

>.<

[singo]

Ragnarox, the term "thoery" in science is something totally different to "theory" elsewhere. A scientific theory is basically an extremely important understanding concept covering a large area of science that has been proven time and time again.

Yup, one which has not been pretty much "proved" is called a hypothesis

There are anomalies with General Relativity, but unless there is a massive shift in scientific thinking (or in technology) it doesnt look like it will be thrown out.

The current best bet is on a subtle modification to GR to bring it into line with quantum theory

[Borgorb]

i think the furthest weve gotten into space is 1 light hour in 30 years on an unmanned space probe

if we want to go anywhere we have to move past combustion enginesand mabe try an alternative fuel source,the strongest thing weve got is a nuclear reactor and if we have one of thoes onboard there is a very high risk factor

butt who says we have to find them mabe they could find us bu us mass broadcasting pictures of life on earth and letting the aliens discover us

so far the hubble telescope is the furtest we have seen into space (minus government coverups)

[SilverCrusader]

NASA is a government agency :/

[ecyor0]

Yup, one which has not been pretty much "proved" is called a hypothesis

There are anomalies with General Relativity, but unless there is a massive shift in scientific thinking (or in technology) it doesnt look like it will be thrown out.

The current best bet is on a subtle modification to GR to bring it into line with quantum theory

Or a subtle modification to quantum theory to bring it into line with GR :P

Although with hypotheses, even the scientific community get a little vague on the definitions of theory and hypothesis: the Theory of Evolution being a prime example. By definition, it cannot be conclusively proven, since all "proof" for it is merely inferring from circumstantial evidence: well considered and logical inferences, but still inferring all the same. However, evolution is such a treasured child of the scientific community that it was given the title "theory" before any decent evidence existed

[singo]

Although with hypotheses, even the scientific community get a little vague on the definitions of theory and hypothesis: the Theory of Evolution being a prime example. By definition, it cannot be conclusively proven, since all "proof" for it is merely inferring from circumstantial evidence: well considered and logical inferences, but still inferring all the same. However, evolution is such a treasured child of the scientific community that it was given the title "theory" before any decent evidence existed

Not really, it was not given a full blown official "theory" title until evidence other than that gathered by Darwin was analysed. The media of the day will have given it the title "Theory Of Evolution" well before that though. The media have a disturbing tendancy to do things like that.

And evolution as a theory is a damn sight more certain (in as much as anything is) than relativity. Directly observable too, in microbes anyway.

[ecyor0]

Not really, it was not given a full blown official "theory" title until evidence other than that gathered by Darwin was analysed. The media of the day will have given it the title "Theory Of Evolution" well before that though. The media have a disturbing tendancy to do things like that.

And evolution as a theory is a damn sight more certain (in as much as anything is) than relativity. Directly observable too, in microbes anyway.

No, it is directly observable - that's how einstein got credibility in the first place - during an eclipse of the sun, he took photos of a star just behind the rim of the sun before and while the sun was in front of it (he did this during an eclipse because that was the only time that the star would actually be visible). The star appeared to move up as the sun moved past, proving that the sun was bending the light of that star so that it would be visible from earth, as predicted by general relativity.

As for evolution, yep, it is directly observable in not only microbes, but mammals, insects and most other species (or more specifically, micro-evolution is observable - micro-evolution being small variances within a species to adapt to a changing environment. It's macro-evolution, large changes into different species that is causing a little trouble to prove).

[SilverCrusader]

Acutally nothing we know about the universe or anything isn't absolutely true. Gravity IS A THEORY amazingly. We have proof of it, but nevertheless we do not know what makes it happen.

[Icarus]

^

Mass creates gravity. absolutely everything with mass pulls objects towards it, the magnitude of which is measured by the mass.

[SilverCrusader]

Really, but why is it happening?

[ecyor0]

In a Terry Pratchett novel, at this point the Dean of Unseen University would say "Well, because.... it's Quantum" and leave it at that as if that explained everything

[SilverCrusader]

Exactly, thats why gravity is a theory :D. It isn't like I am against it, I'm just stating we don't know much about it for a complete fact.
We know for certain gravity will pull us back down to the ground, however, what if by a very molecular chance you keep going up and gravity failed to pull you back down, until gravity finally catches up to you 1 second later, and you fall to the ground. Why did that happen? How did it happen?

[singo]

Its not the Dean, its Ponder Stibbons

[ecyor0]

Its not the Dean, its Ponder Stibbons

Bother. I thought he was the Dean? Been a while since I read the books though.

[singo]

Heh, I know far more about that series than can possibly be good for me....

[TheOutcast]

I didn't bother to read all of the replies to this thread, so excuse me if someone has already mentioned this but, I've always wanted to know what else is out there too. Beyond our solar system. The most we'd probably find is bacteria. If you think of it, our universe is estimated to be only five billion years old, meaning we could be one of the very first civilizations in space. We're pretty limited to the discovery of space and travel in space, so we may never know what could be out there.

We, most likely are the only life in our solar system. From Jupiter to Nepture, these planets are all gas giants, not so much planets. They aren't terrestial planets like from Mecrury to Mars. Mercury and Venus are too hot and Mars is too dead. Pluto is too cold and far away.

If you think of it, we wouldn't be here if it weren't for our very moon! We wouldn't have seasons if it weren't for the moon, we wouldn't have life! The moon helped make tides in the ocean, and (correct me if i'm wrong) tides help bring life! I saw a documentary called Naked Science, and it has a good point and has good theories. If a planet wanted to have a balanced cycle it'd need a moon.

[ecyor0]

I didn't bother to read all of the replies to this thread, so excuse me if someone has already mentioned this but, I've always wanted to know what else is out there too. Beyond our solar system. The most we'd probably find is bacteria. If you think of it, our universe is estimated to be only five billion years old, meaning we could be one of the very first civilizations in space. We're pretty limited to the discovery of space and travel in space, so we may never know what could be out there.

We, most likely are the only life in our solar system. From Jupiter to Nepture, these planets are all gas giants, not so much planets. They aren't terrestial planets like from Mecrury to Mars. Mercury and Venus are too hot and Mars is too dead. Pluto is too cold and far away.

If you think of it, we wouldn't be here if it weren't for our very moon! We wouldn't have seasons if it weren't for the moon, we wouldn't have life! The moon helped make tides in the ocean, and (correct me if i'm wrong) tides help bring life! I saw a documentary called Naked Science, and it has a good point and has good theories. If a planet wanted to have a balanced cycle it'd need a moon.

I guess. But the moons real benefit wasn't seasons. At some point (can't remember exactly when - some time before life arose anyway) an approximately mars-sized object rich in heavy minerals crashed into the developing earth at high speed. Normally this would be disastrous, however the object hit at such an angle that the earth itself stayed (more or less) together. What happened was that all the heavy elements from the object ended up as part of the earth's mass, while most of the lighter elements were thrown up into a dust cloud orbiting the earth which eventually coalesced into the moon. The main upshot of all of this was that the atmosphere was virtually stripped from the planet and became the thin layer it is today - up till then the atmosphere had been more like Venus.

They worked this out when they found that A) the moon was several million years younger than the earth and B) the earth had too many heavy elements for a planet its size.

[singo]

If you think of it, our universe is estimated to be only five billion years old, meaning we could be one of the very first civilizations in space.


15 billion not five was the figure I heard mentioned.

If you think of it, we wouldn't be here if it weren't for our very moon! We wouldn't have seasons if it weren't for the moon, we wouldn't have life! The moon helped make tides in the ocean, and (correct me if i'm wrong) tides help bring life! I saw a documentary called Naked Science, and it has a good point and has good theories. If a planet wanted to have a balanced cycle it'd need a moon.

Jupiter's moons have tides too, and are quite possibly heated by them. Europa is mostly water so it has quite a lot of things going for it as a potential source of life. So the question is, is it easy for life to get started when the conditions are in place, or is it difficult?

Only one way to find out...

[ChaosZon]

Fermi Paradox. If it is a statistical certainty that there are aliens out there somewhere, why have we never once found any evidence of their existence? You'd think that we'd have at least got one signal with some alien Super Bowl on it or something that was broadcast off some planet a thousand light-years away by now...

[Darmago]

I'd just like to point out the absurdity of the idea of "the final frontier"

Oh how wrong alexander was when he sat in rome and proclaimed "I have conquered the world" or something like that. Only to find out years later that there was so much more of the world that they didn't know about. So to alexander, he had conquered the final frontier. The only last remaining thing to conquer... but it wasn't. 'Nor was the brave new world, 'nor was the sky. Not even our own moon was the final frontier. Even though many people believed it so.

Where most people say "I cannot conceive of something being beyond this" I say "Since all these people (including a whole lot who were possibly smarter than I) found something beyond a boundry completely inconceivable, and were proven wrong, the only thing I can conclude from this, is that there is no final boundary, and the mere fact that I can't conceive of anything being past a boundary proves that there is something behind that boundary, we just have yet to get to it."

The fact that so many people believe that there is no conceivable thing outside of the univers/after death/__________, proves, to me, that there is, and I for one can't wait to find out.

For those of you who tldr'ed this post, here it is summed up in a small sentance Just because you can't imagine something, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[singo]

You'd think that we'd have at least got one signal with some alien Super Bowl on it or something that was broadcast off some planet a thousand light-years away by now...

Not really, the galaxy is 300 000 ly across, and since radio signals get weaker with distance (because they spread out, you need a really powerful transmission to go any real distance. And it would still take a while to get anywhere.

And thats just our galaxy, Andromeda is millions of ly away.

And does anyone else find it slightly disturbing that the first broadcast from earth powerful enough to get anywhere was the Nuremberg Rally?

Anyone read 3001: Final Oddessy?

[BlackDefiler]

First off, how do you know they use radio technology too? Maybe they use some means of communication that is unknown to us. Second, even if they use radio technology, there are so many bandwidths to check that it's simply impossible to keep an eye on all of it. We use a certain bandwidth because that's the most probable in a logical way, but maybe they don't think the way we do.

[singo]

Which could also be a reason we have not detected their transmissions.

Any really advanced civilization with colonies on other planets would probably be communicating in the most old fashioned long-distance way of all, courier ships.

Unless they have faster than light communications.

EDIT: Or maybe alien languages just sound like static...

[Borgorb]

singo is rite
even if we can make contact it will possibly take years for us to understand their language
also wiht the sheer number of possible fraquencys of radio there are there is almost zero chance of us finding something ahd that is if they use radio at all

if we wnat to make contact we must either wait or develop a new type of non-combustion engine and a type of cryogenic sleep unit so the people on the ship dont die

[SilverCrusader]

nothing is faster than light, we'd have to somehow do instaneous matter transmission to have efficient communication.

[Darmago]

nothing is faster than light, we'd have to somehow do instaneous matter transmission to have efficient communication.


Well... lets see here... E=mc^2 so m=E/c^2 and since c^2 is a constant...

wouldn't it just be easier to do instantaneous ENERGY transmission for communication, leaving instantaneous Matter transmission for transmitting matter...
or you could just admit to not knowing a whole lot on the subject

A good idea for this thread, would be to stop trying to solve 23rd century problems with 20th century(seeing as we havn't even reached the 211th decade) technology and beliefs.

[wenching]

Has anyone read the Ender Saga by Orson scott card?
It features the human race expanding in the galaxy, in 1000 years there are only 100 planets coloniezed and a few border planets. only intellegent species were discovered. It also has an alien race comuntcating in a interesting way, Bacteria. Different Bacteria patterns are different messagesand they can adapt and report back. Now WOuld any of this be likly?

(pardon my spelling)

[ChaosZon]

Regardless of your objections the Fermi Paradox is regarded as one of the biggest obstacles to the statement that it is a statistical impossibility that humans are the only intelligent life in our universe or even our galaxy. It's one of the main reasons for the creation of the "Rare Earth" hypothesis.

[ecyor0]

That, and also the high level of luck needed to get life in the first place - at the last count, there were so many individual prerequisites for life that the chances of life arising were in the order of 10^256

And before you say "Oh but there are so many planets out there that there must be at least one that supports life" the estimated number of atoms in the universe only comes to 10^79 atoms (10^81 if you include dark matter and similar exotic substances)
Incidentally, 10^81 is also the probability point were statistically and scientifically speaking, it's never going to happen. So 10^256 doesn't even bear thinking about.

[TheOutcast]

I saw an interesting documentary a couple days ago about a "Blue Moon". It said something about the Hubble Telescope picking up a moon that can support life without a moon of it's own. They don't know if there's life on it or not, so scientists started to create hypothesis' like "if the atmosphere is this thick, then this is the kind of life you would expect".

This moon is supposively orbiting a planet much like Saturn, but ten times bigger. And this Saturn-planet is orbiting two stars, called "twin stars". It was pretty cool, they showed 3D animation of the kind of life they predicted. They talked about sky whales (whales that fly), giant mosquitos, and big blobby things hanging from gas inflated trees. But humans won't be soon finding this kind of information out. But, it's still pretty cool to think of this kind of stuff!

[ecyor0]

Sounds kind of like what they thought the planet Venus would be like when we saw under the cloud cover (ocean planet, peaceful etc)

[TheOutcast]

I wonder if scientists or NASA employees are ever going to
launch a new space probe to explore more of our solar system?
The voyager 1 is supposively leaving our solar system.

[SilverCrusader]

it already has...
Anyway, if it was 10 times the size of saturn the gravitational field would be much too strong to support flying of any sort if there was life.