DISCUSSION: Defense Maps: The Art Of Balance

[ClintonM]

First of all I'd like to take a moment to introduce myself, I was a past member of these forums and most of you have probably forgotten me so no names will be mentioned. I attempted to help out the mapping/mods community in the past and began making some maps on my own, which brings us to today's discussion.

Second of all, I'd like to start this *wonderful* discussion on the art of balancing a defense map.

I am currently working on a defense map that I had originally started on my older account and posted about it on these very forums, however after real life finally catching up to me it was long, lost, and forgotten. Then my computer got a virus and it was deleted, along with another perfectly layed out project, Monopoly (also mentioned on these forums).

After realizing what I had done, I gave up StarCraft, I had lost hours of work on my maps and havn't returned, until now. Now I'm working on a unique defense map and I have a few things to discuss as I follow the production phase.

The topics to discuss?
- What makes a Defense map TRULY balanced?
- What makes a Defense map fun and not repetitive after only being played a few times, sometimes even the first time you play it?

Now that you have a brief history/understanding, let the discussion begin!

[Protogod]

Defense maps blow, except for nazi defence, for the shear fun of the name. /discussion.

[B.A.Baracus]

/discussion.
Alright alright alright, give that a rest. Its only cool when used in moderation- and your giving it a work out.

[ClintonM]

Why must people spam my thread?

Warboards has gone downhill quite a bit... The fact that you're a part of the "SC.org Staff" even makes me question coming on the .org network, with such "interesting" staff members and all...

If all "Defense maps blow", tell me why. That's the point of this thread, discuss what bothers you about Defense maps and what could make them better.

Instead of adding to the problem, help fix it! :D

[Ktan]

Protogod's just highly sarcastic and quite oppinionated when it comes to...well, anything, really. He's actually pretty responsible when it comes down to it.

Trust me, you'll get people like MidnightGladius and other such mappers who will approach this thread with a little more of the POV you're looking for.

[NightCircle]

It's hard to say what makes a map fun and not repetitive, since defense-maps is based on repetitive action.

A map I think is too repetitive is Turret Defense. Build an awful amount of those turrets and buy some Anti-Air-units. Repeat. When did I found this fun? 4 o'clock in the night on a LAN-party when we were laughing like idiots, because of some clown. Not alone on my chair with the computer and 5 players from all over the world who I will never meet eye-to-eye in my entire life.

A good defense-map is fun even when you are alone, right?

[ClintonM]

After thinking about it for a while, making a defense that is easy enough to play/understand as being a "noob", but also in-depth enough to give master players something as well.

And as you said, yes, a defense map should be fun even when you're sitting alone in front of your computer with players around the world. I think I'm going to change the play style from team to individual to avoid "bad groups" that is frequent on battle.net.

Still, continue on, more suggestions are greatly appreciated.

P.S. Protogod, if you were being sarcastic I apologize for what I said, the internet STILL can't portray emotion in someone's voice, go figure.

P.P.S. MidnightGladius, that name rings a bell from the old days ;).

[MaxedOutBC]

A fun defense map be one that is has plenty of variety and an interesting concept! Also remember that defense maps do not have to be you simply attacking units who try to run to a certain area, but can be real defense maps.

[Aqo]

Difficulty.

The harder a defense map, the more fun it is.

If you can beat a stage, make it harder. Repeat until you can't beat it. Once you've reached that point, try it again for 10-20 times. If you still can't beat it, reduce the difficulty a bit.
Repeat until it's done for all stages...

[ClintonM]

Yes, I will make it difficult, but will have a selection mode for each individual person so that there is more of a reason to come back, I will do this simply by setting percentages on health levels at startup ;).

Also, I have come up with another addition to increase the replay value/fun factor, mini-games every 2-4 rounds ^^.

P.S. Did I mention my map will only be 64x64? It's going to be lightweight and fun at the same time, a mapping challenge most think is impossible :).

[wakiki]

What always bothered me about defense maps is that I'm not that interested in computers.

There was one Warcraft III defense map where each person could not only make towers, but also build units to send to the opponents base. You would send units to the right of you and receive them from the left.

When you built units, you made more gold per turn. When you killed someone elses units, you made some money right then. Also, if you managed to send units through the guy's base, you stole his lives and made money, I think. It was really interesting and strategic.

If you are making a competetive tower defense map, you should consider implementing a feature like that!

If not, ehh, I can't help you much. :\

First post on this forum. Woohoo...

[ClintonM]

Hmm... That actually could add replay value, however it's been done before in SC as well (Spawn Defense). I probably wont' implement this because I'm going to stick with 64x64 4 player map that can be played alone.

It's also going to be based off of how Poker Defense and all the Random Defenses by E.X.C.I.T.I.N.G. (why'd I type that out -_-?), but I hope to counter the repetitiveness with the mini-games.

[Dark_hunter4]

What always bothered me about defense maps is that I'm not that interested in computers.

There was one Warcraft III defense map where each person could not only make towers, but also build units to send to the opponents base. You would send units to the right of you and receive them from the left.

When you built units, you made more gold per turn. When you killed someone elses units, you made some money right then. Also, if you managed to send units through the guy's base, you stole his lives and made money, I think. It was really interesting and strategic.

If you are making a competetive tower defense map, you should consider implementing a feature like that!

If not, ehh, I can't help you much. :\

First post on this forum. Woohoo...


That Was Line Tower Wars BTW, Wakiki, or LTW and some like to say, it was fun, but it got laggy at the end, when each player sent ultima units with clicking frenzy...

A lot of TD makers, make the last boss with insane HP, some fun, but a real piss off at times, also in WC3 lots of TDs had "immune" levels, which made them immune to your frost(slow) towers, but had low hp and about 1k armor(wc3 went by percentages) which made them take like .25 dmg from your towers... What I'm saying is, there is a delicate balance, between tower damage, unit health and armor, also another factor that balances a TD map is tower cost, and unit bounty.. nobody likes and expensive tower when you have to kill 3 guys for 1 mineral, specially if the tower is like 55 minerals, another thing that helps is level-completion bonus, not too high to where they breeze through the levels, but not too low to where they are beaten easily, too say... well struggle, would be a good tactic im making the map challenging, and fun, if you struggle alot to beat the level every time, then you prolly should change your strat.
Bottom line is, challenging&balanced, while fun? Count me in, Im a TD freak...
along with LOTR maps, and RPGS...

[ClintonM]

As you said, although very hard to read, the game does require unit balance which I am currently going through the process of doing so. However, I do not want there to only be one way to beat a map. If this were the case, one unit would obviously be the best option and no one would ever do anything differently.

I'm currently balancing unit power/prices for the first level of my defense map and I will post future updates in this forum and eventually make a thread for my map.

However, other than just balancing units, how should I go about balancing the levels? I think that I want to make units go from slowest to fastest, but I can't seem to find a list of unit speeds. I realize I could simply make a map to figure this one out, however I would rather see them in a "numerical" order.

Could anyone supply me the unit speeds in order from slowest to fastest or give me a link to an existing one?

[ClintonM]

Bump.

Could someone supply me with unit speeds from slowest to fastest?

[LaserDude]

I'd suggest using a modding tool called "Datedit". You can look up info like speeds from the editor itself. I won't list them since there are 228 different units.

[Icarus]

I Don't make maps, I only play em, but 95% of what i play is ums, and defense maps constantly dissappoint simply because:

a. The game is pretty much determined before it even starts, depending on amount of players

b. It's so repetitive and no matter how many times you play, you'll be doing the same thing.

What i'd really like to see are defense maps that are more involving. "Defense" maps, not "send your units to this comp unit, then to this horde, etc.". Like, say each "level" was a different part of the overall map, each stage with different sets of terrain. Players would get prescribed units, so they don't "earn" them. Their job would be to use their units pros and cons together with the terrain to be most effective towards oncoming units. If you've played that one civil war map where all the battlefields are separate, it'd be a bit like that.

For example, say you know that a horde of ultras are going to try to kill your units. They're coming from the north to the south. You may be given say 8 rines, 4 bats, 4 ghosts, a siege tank, and an scv. A bunker costs X amount of mins, and you are given X times 2 amount of mins at this certain stage, allowing you two bunks. your best bet is to find high ground, and a better bet would be a large hill. or you could try to even out your damage by finding two hills on opposite sides, and setting up there. Whether you win or lose only effects whether youll participate next round, not whether youll get more or less units. Maybe for the final round you could have the players square off against each other, defending their building while using their units to destroy enemy buildings. Killing enemies would give some reward in that round, say more units. I dunno.

The idea is pretty vague, i know, but you sorta get it, right?

I just wish the defence maps would be more interesting and unpredictable and involving.

[DarkMirror]

Must..make that map...

[ClintonM]

That idea might SEEM original, however it would also get repetitive because every person who would beat it once would know how to beat it the second time.

The last part is just a mass attack map.

I got some ideas from your post, but that's for another map ;).

Map Size: 64x64
Players: 1-4

Here's my latest screenshot of the in-map GUI ^^:
http://www.imageigloo.com/images/7445001.png

And Explanation of the Layout:

http://www.imageigloo.com/images/2092explanation.png
Select: Select either random units or random mineral by mind controlling associated unit.
Life: Life bar which shows up on the in-map GUI (Mini-Map).
Not Yet Implemented: Possibly mini-games, however I want to focus on the main game for now.

Now that I'm satisfied with how the map looks, it's time to begin triggering/balancing.

Also, I STILL can't find the unit speeds even with programs previously mentioned, there HAS to be some kind of a list for this kind of thing... I can't really do too much balancing until I know all unit speed values.

Post any questions/concerns/criticisms etc.

[sumfenderfan41]

Well, yes, make it hard, but if you want it to catch on, it's got to have a decently easy intro.

And for diversity, a good way is make it have bosses, or wave (if not waves already) that way players feel a sense of accomplishment when they have beaten a certain number of bosses, or even unlocked new characters.:)

[DeathFang]

To make a map, that doesn't get repetitive, it requires variety, and experimenting. For example, it's like shooting at tank. You unload a clip of ammunition, only to find that the tank is invunerable to that type of firepower, so you load in a clip with AA ammunition. I think you get my point.
For the experimenting part, well it takes just that.

Edit:

That idea might SEEM original, however it would also get repetitive because every person who would beat it once would know how to beat it the second time.

The last part is just a mass attack map.

I got some ideas from your post, but that's for another map ;).

Map Size: 64x64
Players: 1-4

Here's my latest screenshot of the in-map GUI ^^:
http://www.imageigloo.com/images/7445001.png

And Explanation of the Layout:

http://www.imageigloo.com/images/2092explanation.png
Select: Select either random units or random mineral by mind controlling associated unit.
Life: Life bar which shows up on the in-map GUI (Mini-Map).
Not Yet Implemented: Possibly mini-games, however I want to focus on the main game for now.

Now that I'm satisfied with how the map looks, it's time to begin triggering/balancing.

Also, I STILL can't find the unit speeds even with programs previously mentioned, there HAS to be some kind of a list for this kind of thing... I can't really do too much balancing until I know all unit speed values.

Post any questions/concerns/criticisms etc.

By the way, the way that map is set up is ingenious. Very original. That also makes a good map.

[ClintonM]

More C&C please?

Also, I'm trying to do some research on the ammunitions effectiveness on units, just like how Firebats slaughter Zealots/Zerglings ^^.

Does anyone have ANY idea where I can get that reference for unit movement? I've already looked at that modding tool mentioned before and couldn't find anything.

[Kawagata]

Why must people spam my thread?

Warboards has gone downhill quite a bit... The fact that you're a part of the "SC.org Staff" even makes me question coming on the .org network, with such "interesting" staff members and all...

If all "Defense maps blow", tell me why. That's the point of this thread, discuss what bothers you about Defense maps and what could make them better.

Instead of adding to the problem, help fix it! :D
don't jump to conclusions. you've just happened to "that" mod responding. anyways a good def game is something that is hard to beat with a simple concept. a good def game also requires teamwork.

[ClintonM]

lol, again, why must people spam my thread, this has been said before... lol

[Ktan]

You made a base assumption about Warboards as it is now off the posts of only two users. That's going to offend people.

further, Kawataga did at least go out of the way to add his opinion. Instead of going 'quit spamming', just point out that you want to know more about his reasoning, instead of making the 'spam' problem sound worse than it is.

[ClintonM]

Again, people need to READ the thread...

We've already discovered that Protogod was kidding anyway.

Again... STOP spamming the thread. You say to stop making the problem worse than it is (which I've already said I was wrong) but you just spammed, creating a spamming problem. Hypocrites ftw ^^.

Please post concerning the topic of "DISCUSSION: Defense Maps: The Art Of Balance"

Can I make myself any clearer?

[Ktan]

I was making a moderational intervention. If you count that as spamming, so be it, but I was trying to point out (to your favour) that the attitude you were taking could cause offence to me.

Further, if you think I'm spamming, and, then, again, respond by saying 'Stop spamming even more', that's just again 'spam' by the same logic. If you really feel it is actually spam that is attempting to derail the thread or otherwise harm the flow of the discussion than use the report post button.

However, me stepping into a thread to try and avert any type of heated situation is me doing what I was appointed to do.

Now, take my advice or leave it, but we do not need to further discuss this issue in the thread.