Mapping and Modding

[Ktan]

What are your theories about the new map editor? Do you think it will incorporate modding features? Discuss here.

[Protogod]

Blizzard has never been a fan of "modding." Thier "revolutionary" mapping tools probably wont even match our scmdraft. Scmdraft is a 3rd party editor. If you remember staredit, THAT is what they're upgrading.

[Mr.Bad]

No, protogod, Warcraft's editor was far more effective than scmdraft, staredit, what ever. Blizzard does make advanced editors, and they probably will make one for this game.

[SilverCrusader]

whats the point of having that type of editor when the learning curve is that steep?

[Ahzz]

They'll make an even more powerful editor for sc2 than wc3 one. So no mods/extra mapping tools required for a long long while (unless they wont include stuff like AI editing or something)

[Skydragon222]

Blizard probably already knows about SCM draft. Remember this is blizzard we are talking about. THye made Starcraft, Warcraft, WoW, and Diablo. These great game designers obviously know their stuff. and if they have been working on sc2 for 4 years than they probably know about their map making competition. Who knows, maybe they are making an editor that can kick SCMdraft's ass.

As for modding features. I think they might offer minor modding things perhaps going as far up as datedit.

Truly what I want to see is more heroes with faces. Also i want to see more special heroes, like Kerrigan who mirrors no other unit.

[Shadowriver]

I hope they will make some script language implementation in game as triggers system ;p old block-like trigger system is little annoying for me on bigger scripts.

[Ahzz]

sure they know about scmdraft and all that. They had maps like blitz x 2.0 at the WWI, which uses widened ramps etc.

[SilverCrusader]

I hope they will make some script language implementation in game as triggers system ;p old block-like trigger system is little annoying for me on bigger scripts.
use comments.
I like SCMDraft perfectly, and they really can't make it like WC3, it was a total fiasco. No one can hardly ever map because they couldn't figure out how, I have someone who has been using it for 2 years and still doesn't know how to edit the units attributes.

[Ahzz]

yes I know. People have complained about the warcraft 3 trigger system for several reasons.
It was incredibly hard to use. I was a expert trigger user at starcraft, but I still could hardly do anything in warcraft. All the triggers were REALLY complicated and hard to use, they required tons of practise and even more common sense. I made some maps in warcraft 3 editor, and I guarantee that it was really hard... I could mostly do simple things, such as decent terrain (not blizzard level terrain AT ALL! That kind of terrain needs incredible skill or too much work from a newb like me) and simple triggers like movie shots, orders, conditions on what happens after this (not very complicated ones), quests (didn't figure out how to save the character before the quest movie scene tho) and other simple triggers.
What's even more funny is, that in theory all the effects are there, however, you must know the exact location for those very effects or it is of no use. Yeah, you try making some starfall effects dammit, we dont even have the direct command for that unless we make a hero use the ability.
Really, I practised it quite a bit, browsed through all blizzard campaigns (yeah my bro took them outta the install exe for me - easier than in sc) and all other very good campaign triggers and copied them and all. I could only do decent though, if you ask me. It was incredibly hard. Sure it's a powerful tool - for who? blizzard map makers who know exactly what does what?

Yeah we need more starcraft-ish triggers, like direct COMMAND for something, not million string this string that and then debug string x... really annoying.

They said the editor will be very powerful and even have the scripting option. who knows exactly what it means :p .

[Mattimeeleo]

Speaking of which, they should have some kinda of weather system on the game... So randomly (or if the person who made the map choses to make it specific) some kind of weather effect happens corresponding to the tileset and things happening around...

For example
1) Its a map on a desert. There are sandstorms and such... or sudden Monsoon.
2) It's Char. Volcanic Explosions.
3) A High Templar makes a psionic storm... Aftereffect is that some thunder storm (visual or just audio)


btw, I put this post on some other post too...

[Shadowriver]

WC3 triggers was easer to use then SC triggers for me ;> maybe because i know some things in programing stuff. It had more complex stuff, and allows for more things then SC ;p got Variables, Allows calculation on them... but block form got limits. It's little annoying specially in making calculations or if conditions, it may take lot of trigger layers that sometimes make hard to move in them ;p This is why good to be if they could implement script language ;> something like perl (PHP like script language) or lua, this could make triggers coding faster and more complex stuff could be made ;p also it's possible to make old block-style trigger system for programing newbies and it could generate script code at end ^^ like VS2003 or later form designer.

[Skydragon222]

Speaking of which, they should have some kinda of weather system on the game... So randomly (or if the person who made the map choses to make it specific) some kind of weather effect happens corresponding to the tileset and things happening around...

For example
1) Its a map on a desert. There are sandstorms and such... or sudden Monsoon.
2) It's Char. Volcanic Explosions.
3) A High Templar makes a psionic storm... Aftereffect is that some thunder storm (visual or just audio)

Wow that is creepy I htought of the exact same thing today.

PErhaps events liek fog can lower vision or rain cna reduce firebats attack prowess

But it should be able to be turned off only last for 3-5 minutes and be advantageous as well as disadvantageous

. But what if they had cool effects like meteors damagin untis and rain reducing laser and fire power. Fog reducing vision. Also on lava terrsin how about soot in the air. makes it harder for the zerg to breed. But it allows them to burrow and escape detecion. (not for lurkers.)

Plus multiple waether condtions for different types of terrain

[bomber7]

Yeah we need more starcraft-ish triggers, like direct COMMAND for something, not million string this string that and then debug string x... really annoying.
.
First of all i believe that making the triggers more starcraft like is heresy! Its definitely true that the help files stunk. Its also true that its rather hard for a non programmer to pick this up quickly. (Which i found it rather easy myself because i am a programmer) I believe they should have an easy to use GUI type triggers for the people who cant handle WC3 triggers. Then have a good scripting language that can be used by people who want to be more advanced.

Some reasons why i believe starcraft triggers suck
No advanced trigger functions (code saved heros)
No advanced fuctions (at all)
Inability to detect many game events (hero cast spell)

Almost all wc3 games you take for advantage;
Dota, Dotd, Master Crafters... Would be impossible if you tried to make this same stuff in SC.

[DarkMirror]

Then use SC trigger system with those detectors.
Plus, SC2 woint have WC3 Heros, so we dont need those things.

[bomber7]

Yes but many many many players will still want heros in custom games regardless of whether there in the meele. The triggers should be fluent enough so that they can make normal units seem to be heros.

I'm happy to announce that sc trigger style will almost certainly be changed to something that more heavily repersents wc3 trigger style. However i strongly agree there will be a good and easy to use gui (like sc) that can be used with a complex advanced (but very powerful) scripting language (like wc3)

[Mattimeeleo]

Well, the weather effects should only be for visual purposes.. No stat changes. That just totally screws everything up, unless Blizzard is like godly awesome at those balance crap.

For example:
1) Snowing should be on tilesets with ice (duh). The screen is filled with snow falling (not totally full). The falling snow should land on units and doodads to keep it realistic. And since they have a physics engine, I think that's pretty easy to do. And when the unit moves, the snow falls off.

################################################## #################################
I'm going to have to make some changes on my previous post about the extra graphic stuff.

Well, I think that the little extra graphic thing will probably raise the minimum requirement for Starcraft II. So I think this will be really bad on the game...
Here's my opinion about it.:

1) Since extra weathering stuff has nothing to do with the gameplay, maybe there should be a option of turning the weather thing on/off.
2) On b.net, the weather thing should be chosen by the game creator because of all the latency crap. So everyone is synchronized.

[Protogod]

Yes but many many many players will still want heros in custom games regardless of whether there in the meele. The triggers should be fluent enough so that they can make normal units seem to be heros.

I'm happy to announce that sc trigger style will almost certainly be changed to something that more heavily repersents wc3 trigger style. However i strongly agree there will be a good and easy to use gui (like sc) that can be used with a complex advanced (but very powerful) scripting language (like wc3)

I greatly prefer the sc triggering system to the wc3 one. Although sc might not be pretty, or incredibly powerful, but the old girl can holf her own, and its a standby for basic mapping. WC3 made even the simplest things hard, creating a profound learning curve.

[Ahzz]

I must agree on that. everything that was fairly simple in sc was hard in wc3 editor. except maybe placing units, but anyone can do that

[SilverCrusader]

I almost crapped my pants when they told me if your good with SC's editor you'll know what to do with WC3s.
I'll still be mapping with triggers either way, but if the leave it classic, everyone will like it.

[Ahzz]

well being good with SC editor is definately a plus since you can easily use the same effects allowed in SC... Without it being very complicated.

[Skydragon222]

but if the leave it classic, everyone will like it.

Chances are blizzard won't keep it classic. After seeing SCMdraft 2 and Xtra editor they wil probably want to show as much as possible in order to provide the best experience.

[SilverCrusader]

best experience
that includes making it user friendly right?

[TitanWing]

Yes it does.

[Skydragon222]

Blizzard has the geniuses behind warcraft, diablo, and starcraft. If you look at warboards we have a MAP and mods depot. Blizzard won't let us down. The question is how much will they not let us down (how good will the map editor be.)

[U-238]

heh, mapping's not my biggest concern. Blizz will come through with that easy. What should really be worried about is how moddable the game will be. At best I'm guessing you can change unit stats and AI (and maybe graphics) but nothing else. And that will really suck.

[Basan]

One of the things that kept SC-BW alive n' kicking for so long was it's easy to get by mapping editor. And I think that that concept somewhat flunked in WC3-TFT with their great idea to mesh modding and mapping tools into one single program. A great ideal but the language used for triggering (the most hard to come by in the editor for me) is difficult as hell. I've been around in it for a lil' while now and still find it troublesome to do some of the medium complicated things I could do in SC-BW's triggers.

To help SC2's successfulness they really should consider a good and elaborate help guide along with the editor to come. That and a few tutorial maps to come with it as well. Powerful but still easily 'masterable'. ;)

[bomber7]

I definitely agree. They will hopefully do that. If they do it will extremely increase the effectiveness of the map making tools. Especially if its powerful. However i myself have never had any problems with wc3's triggers or starcraft's triggers

[MaxedOutBC]

Maybe the game might come with a mapping editor with very basic modding changes (cooldown, names, damages, etc) and a more advanced modding editor that are separate but can work together. They both work with the same file but different parts of it.

After all, if their map format is something like an SCM/SCX (archives), then it shouldn't be extremely hard since a single SCM/SCX can technicaly hold a lot files which a map can refer to. It sounds good to me, but i'm not sure about how complicated or hard it would be to implement.

[bomber7]

Hmmmmm that might work. I more imagine a relationship like a scripting language, and a gui. Like in wc3 except the gui would be dummed down and the script potency increased!

[SilverCrusader]

I am a programmer, so I do not mind such things, but I don't like the fact of Blizzard being so communistic!
They want their editor, and only their editor being used, there are no prefences, I like having an assortment of editors, it allows me to chose which one I like.

[Egon]

Ugh.. The WC3 map editor is the reason I stopped playing. I love to make my own maps but it took me more then 30 minutes to just find the stupid goldmine! With the help of one of my friends too*

If they keep the new StarEdit in the same setup as they have it now, then it should be just fine! I don't see why they would have to change it much anyway. It's just 3D Starcraft with new units and land added.

[bomber7]

HAHAHahaa you dont see WHY they would change it because you have never tried to do anything truly advanced in starcraft....

The warcraft editor makes a lot of things harder. But things that are impossible in starcraft become simple in warcraft.

[TitanWing]

We have modding for the complicated stuff.

Normal editor with a little more power such as the ability to edit range, cooldown, unit portraits and some other more basic unit stats would be nice, but combining the modding and mapping aspects into a single program is a bad idea. It will most likely kill off a large number of UMS mappers who just don't want to deal with the stress of an editor like WC3's.

[Protogod]

It will most likely kill off a large number of UMS mappers who just don't want to deal with the stress of an editor like WC3's.

myself included

[TitanWing]

I've already switched over to melee. Triggering is boring already, and now it's probably going to become complicated as well.

[Basan]

We have modding for the complicated stuff.

Normal editor with a little more power such as the ability to edit range, cooldown, unit portraits and some other more basic unit stats would be nice, but combining the modding and mapping aspects into a single program is a bad idea. It will most likely kill off a large number of UMS mappers who just don't want to deal with the stress of an editor like WC3's.

Oddly enough, I've found modding in the WC3-TFT editor to be a lot easier than in it's SC-BW counterparts. :) Problem is that I can't say the same when triggering in WC3-TFT, alas (even if I solely use the GUI interface and not JASS). :P

[SilverCrusader]

Actually, the fact that it will kill alot of trigger mappers off will probably be good for the mapping community, now we won't be seeing as many shitty maps on B.net, because the mappers that are too lazy to learn how to do it, are the ones that are too lazy to make efficient triggers.

[Markpyro]

ut I still could hardly do anything in warcraft. All the triggers were REALLY complicated and hard to use, they required tons of practise and even more common sense. I made some maps in warcraft 3 editor, and I guarantee that it was really hard... I could mostly do simple things, such as decent terrain (not blizzard level terrain AT ALL! That kind of terrain needs incredible skill or too much work from a newb like me) and simple triggers like movie shots, orders, conditions on what happens after this (not very complicated ones), quests (didn't figure out how to save the character before the quest movie scene tho) and other simple triggers.

I found that WC3 triggers were very easy to use. The hard part was finding everything, but once you knew the scope of the triggers it was pretty easy to do almost anything given time. I know they're a lot different from SC, but the system that Blizzard included with WC3 was powerful nonetheless, and SC would benefit from a similar system.

[bomber7]

We have modding for the complicated stuff.
Doesn't work online which is where it'll be most important.

I found that WC3 triggers were very easy to use. The hard part was finding everything, but once you knew the scope of the triggers it was pretty easy to do almost anything given time. I know they're a lot different from SC, but the system that Blizzard included with WC3 was powerful nonetheless, and SC would benefit from a similar system I agree, except i think it will be one of TWO systems. One for the old sc mappers and one for the old wc3 mappers.

[Protogod]

Doesn't work online which is where it'll be most important.

it doesnt? lest im mistaken it works on the condition that your opponents also have the mod. I played battlefield tarsonis with my fellow swbk-er. (vezer)

[bomber7]

Of course it works if you both have the mod. (Mabey not so with the new battle.net) But i mean like if you wanted to share a map you made with other people. But you have to be playing a mod just for it to work what'r the chances your map ever becomes that popular in online play?

I think the new battle.net won't allow that (except in lan) because it'll automatically check your files with itself instead of with the other players.... It'll probably also take a snapshot of your memory (every few minutes) and send that in to. If either of those don't match what it thinks it should it'll kick you off of battle.net

Also i know i probably shouldn't bring this up. But your avatar is kind of bothering me protogod. Would you mind if mabey you changed it to something more neutral?

[TitanWing]

Actually, the fact that it will kill alot of trigger mappers off will probably be good for the mapping community, now we won't be seeing as many shitty maps on B.net, because the mappers that are too lazy to learn how to do it, are the ones that are too lazy to make efficient triggers.
But there's also the possibility that some of those guys may have had some real talent. Just don't want to deal with the stress of a complicated editor.

[SilverCrusader]

True, so very few trigger mappers will be left, it would be chaos, maybe blizzard will encourage the work of different people to make one map? By having areas that people can do seperately and put together later.

[Protogod]

matter settled

[bomber7]

No hate speech or promotion of intolerance
The ORG Network serves as a meeting place that does not care about appearance, ethnicity, country of birth, religion, or sexual orientation. Any form of discrimination or intimidation will not be tolerated.

--Truly sorry I made the comment.

True, so very few trigger mappers will be left, it would be chaos, maybe blizzard will encourage the work of different people to make one map? By having areas that people can do seperately and put together later.

There will be plenty of mappers left. Apparently wc3 triggering is VERY hard.... And yet there are millions of people who do wc3 triggering. I deffinitly do not believe there will be any kind of shortage of people who can trigger except in the begining when everyone is learning the new system.

[SilverCrusader]

There will be plenty of mappers left. Apparently wc3 triggering is VERY hard.... And yet there are millions of people who do wc3 triggering. I deffinitly do not believe there will be any kind of shortage of people who can trigger except in the begining when everyone is learning the new system.
not millions more like thousands, and thats because the editing wasn't that bad, but in blizzards case, they might make it worse. And there really aren't that many WC3 maps that show superior triggering.

[U-238]

Of course it works if you both have the mod. (Mabey not so with the new battle.net) But i mean like if you wanted to share a map you made with other people. But you have to be playing a mod just for it to work what'r the chances your map ever becomes that popular in online play?

I think the new battle.net won't allow that (except in lan) because it'll automatically check your files with itself instead of with the other players.... It'll probably also take a snapshot of your memory (every few minutes) and send that in to. If either of those don't match what it thinks it should it'll kick you off of battle.net

Unless blizzard gets nice and snazzy and allows you to enter B.net with a mod running, but you can only create games (no joining). Once you create a game a person joins. Battle.net sends a notice to this person informing them that this is a modified game and asks if they want to continue. If they concede it downloads the mod to a "mods" folder (same thing as happens with mapping) then writes and runs a script that exits b.net, runs the mod, re-enters b.net, and rejoins the game with the mod running. (this would have to be an automated join since there's no manual joining with a mod running.) It sounds complex yes but the basic concept is the exact same as it is with the current system of downloading maps. The only difference is, is that SC shuts down and restarts with the mod running.

[bomber7]

not millions more like thousands, and thats because the editing wasn't that bad, but in blizzards case, they might make it worse. And there really aren't that many WC3 maps that show superior triggering.

Dota
Master crafters
Defiance's ORPG
Just to name a few that show triggering sc couldn't even dream about.
Besides i stand by the thought they will make an easy system. and a not so easy system that is much more powerful then the easy system

[Basan]

U-238, the WC3-TFT modding is imbued into the maps themselves so, to me, the compatibility issue isn't that a big ordeal when SC2 comes out. Hence that mesh, the WC3-TFT maps being a lot larger in file size terms than the SC-BW counterparts.

[SilverCrusader]

Dota
Master crafters
Defiance's ORPG
Just to name a few that show triggering sc couldn't even dream about.
Besides i stand by the thought they will make an easy system. and a not so easy system that is much more powerful then the easy system
I said only a few maps have good triggering, not that none of them do. There are alot better triggering examples with some SC maps that can easily surpass what DotA or something else could.

[U-238]

U-238, the WC3-TFT modding is imbued into the maps themselves so, to me, the compatibility issue isn't that a big ordeal when SC2 comes out. Hence that mesh, the WC3-TFT maps being a lot larger in file size terms than the SC-BW counterparts.

Right, but that'd mean that the mods are map specific I'd imagine. (don't have WC so I'm not 100% sure) Whereas starcraft mods can be playable on any map any time.

[Basan]

Right, but that'd mean that the mods are map specific I'd imagine. (don't have WC so I'm not 100% sure) Whereas starcraft mods can be playable on any map any time.

We also had mods that weren't map specific in WC3-TFT. If your search for Divine Right, you'll see what I mean. :)
And exporting things in WC3-TFT's editors from one place (read, map) to another is rather simple too, I'd say. Not automatic, but reasonably doable.

[bomber7]

not millions more like thousands, and thats because the editing wasn't that bad, but in blizzards case, they might make it worse. And there really aren't that many WC3 maps that show superior triggering.
I dont see any sc triggers changing attack speeds instantly detecting spells making new spells holding variables having millions of powerful items.

I do see someone trying to make the same things happens but using HUNDREDS of triggers. If more = superior then your correct but if does stuff better = superior your completely wrong

[SilverCrusader]

I dont see any sc triggers changing attack speeds instantly detecting spells making new spells holding variables having millions of powerful items.

I do see someone trying to make the same things happens but using HUNDREDS of triggers. If more = superior then your correct but if does stuff better = superior your completely wrong
I'm talking about pushing an editor to its max, and those things are hardly below water on the iceberg of WC's editor. I'm not talking about the quality or quantity, I'm talking about insane things, like using interceptors as ammunition or making a crazy AI using only triggers. WC's editor is more poewrful than SC's so naturally it can edit more, but we've pushed the SC editor past its limits, I have yet to see the WC editor do the same.

[bomber7]

You are correct there, but people enjoy quality not how far the editor has been pushed....

[Protogod]

You are correct there, but people enjoy quality not how far the editor has been pushed....

pushing the editor implies improved quality. for future reference, my ill-informed friend.

[bomber7]

W/E I'm sure the way blizzard makes the editor will sanctify both of our needs. If they add anything i would greatly enjoy text commands. Which of course they will add plenty but in such a way that its easy to use instead of overwhelming like wc3. Now i hope this post is neutral enough that no one will try to rebuke me....

[shadow123456789]

Blizzard will hopefull implement a Basic Mode and an Advanced Mode for the map editor, as in one that uses triggers(Basic), and another that uses programming language(Advanced), but still on a UI basis, thus giving one more power, and one more compatability with new users. I didn't mind the SC Map Editor triggers, but it was very frustrating when I found that SCME couldn't do certain things like checking who killed what in the last X seconds, whether a spell was being used etc. As I use Gamemaker(A special Game creation program) I would like to see them implement a interface similar to that, as it is easy to use when your new to it, but as you learn more, more is revealed to you. But, all that said, we'll just have to wait and see what Blizzard does this time.

[bomber7]

Gamemaker is definitely a good example. It shows a good way to have gui side by side with script. Also now that we've agreed that this is what we want, lets NOT go in circles with another post like this:
They should keep the triggers just like the old starcraft so everyone will be happy

[SilverCrusader]

Yes i agree, a mode for simplicity, and a mode for complexity.

[Ahzz]

I doubt that though. I read a thread where someone complained about wc3 and one of them included hard to use editor. A admin/mod/blizzard employee completely disagreed and wouldn't even hear it.
That fact being said, I'd say it'll be wc3 level to use, or harder.

[Protogod]

IMHO, that is total BS

[bomber7]

This thread is really going in circles, i say we go with the two mode idea and lock the god damn thread!

[omano]

They're probably gonna make it more advanced than any other mapping resources. if they're putting all they got into starcraft 2, my bet is that its crazy in graphics and way of use!

[Protogod]

This thread is really going in circles, i say we go with the two mode idea and lock the god damn thread!

We cant just "go with an idea" we arent debating how we will make it, we are debating what blizzard's end result will be. There will be no consensus, as none is necessary.

[SilverCrusader]

omg, this is a crazy thought.
Anyway, you know how they have the really cool physics system? What if they made it where you can make triggers that affect the gravity in the location it affects... omg *drools* think of all the things you could do!
And if you throw in switches!
*drools more*

[bomber7]

switches? What are you smoking? We have something ten times better called variables. a switch is a 0 or 1. A variable can hold complete sets of numbers...

[SilverCrusader]

a switch may be represented by 0 or 1, but it is really on or off. As much as I want to use Case this and Case that statements with loops and fuctions, I don't think blizz will get that complicated.

[bomber7]

.......... Did you see wc3? They went as far as jass, arrays, variables and many many other things. Of course they will go much farther then just plain variables. Except mabey you will only be able to use switches in the simple mode. Complex mode will include the variables and arrays.

[SilverCrusader]

ohhh variables and editable gravity....
*drools more...*

[Protogod]

editable gravity? how so?

[bomber7]

Hes fantasizing don't ruin it for him. Who knows he might even be right!

[SilverCrusader]

well, theoritically, there already is editable gravity just by making a gravitation sheild ability fire somewhere.... but just think!
you could make it have negative gravity and then have them slowly float down to where they land! omg... soo cool!

[Ahzz]

already possible in wc3. just hard to do.

[shadow123456789]

As I said before, in the advanced mode, if it would be as powerful as GM, then you could edit the gravity and other root physics variables.
*Starts drooling like SilverCrusader*
*Eats SC2*
*Looks in horror at what he just did*

[Diege]

I just hope the editor is powerful enough to do a DOA style starcraft map! can you imagine watching starcraft units battleing it out on a giant battlefield? I hope the editors complicated enough to make the idiot Hack/cheat losers go away.

[bomber7]

And with the new game engine .... physics...
I bet you blizzard is going to make its own map protection system... Or mabey not, mabey they will make protection impossible simply because they want all maps to be open! That would be a shame. Good for learning Bad for professionals!

[Mr.Bad]

I must say I get really annoyed with protected maps. It's much easier for me to learn from a map than from a guide, etc.

Perhaps instead of protecting maps, Blizzard'll make a database of maps, and a map would have to be checked against the database as either a new map or an old map. That way, people couldn't just change something in another map, because Blizz wouldn't let them host.

On the other hand though, That'd really suck for map-makers, because they would have to wait for a Blizzard employee to check their map before being allowed to host it, so maybe that isn't such a good idea after all.

[SilverCrusader]

I think they should let us be able to password maps. Than the owner knows the password, and no one else does. But a very easy fix to this dilemna is ask for the password when they try to save the map data, it will ask for password, however, it will allow people that just want to look at the map, do so.

[Mr.Bad]

The only problem with that is the ease with which somebody may figure out a password. How about they create a protection system that allows you to view but not save? And only the unprotected map can be saved?

[SilverCrusader]

That works, and is good for learning as well :), and make the map unplayable if the protected part of it is tampered with in any way.

[Mr.Bad]

Yeah, that would stop map-stealers in their tracks. (At least until some programmer went and found a way to counter it, unfortunately)

[SilverCrusader]

They would have to be a really really good programmer, because if they screwed up the original code in anyway the map will delete itself.

[d4rkdragon]

First post =D

Anyways, I don't really mind the map protection stuff. If I were a programmer (which I am in Jass), and I created an uber-mega-omg ultra cool skill/map, I really wouldn't want some dude to copy and paste it, change around a few things, and then call it his own.

As for Warcraft III editor being too hard, I think that it just takes alot of practice, and if you plan on making a half-decent map, I believe you have got to be willing to spend some major hours working on it. Besides, if you don't want to spend time on your map, why bother starting to make on in the first place?

[Ahzz]

I really wouldn't want some dude to copy and paste it, change around a few things, and then call it his own.
exactly. knowing how many different kinds of people lurk around b.net THAT WOULD HAPPEN.
The thing is, they'd make "improvements" as in adding a few simple things that dont affect the crap at all and then call it their own.

[SilverCrusader]

There are only a few types of Mappers:
Noob Mappers: Mappers who aren't very efficient at what they do, but they try anyway.
Novice Mappers: Noob Mappers that have gotten a little better
Intermediate Mappers: Novice Mappers that have improved to the point of average
Expert Mapper: Someone who excels at making maps
Master Mapper: A legend of mapping, someone who pushes the editor to the limit.
Now under those there are different types:
Trigger: A person who specializes in Triggers
Terrain: A person who specializes in Terrain/Melee
Terrain/Trigger: Someone who specializes in both.
And under those there are:
Theory: The people who use their own theories to make a map
Worker: The people who use other people's ideas to make a map
Modifier: The people who take someone elses map and edit it to make it better, and only add a little credit to themselves.
Black Modifier: The people who take someone else map edit it (or in some cases don't do that) in a way that doesn't affect gameplay much or at all and take full credit for the map.

[bomber7]

Okay the classes that generally fit me are 'Modifier' 'Trigger' and I'm not sure which skill level, because I'm very good with triggers but i never seem to finish a map. The creative rush just sort of leaves me and i stop making the map...
Also I like the idea of having maps which are read only, but that idea could be improved if the map was not only read only but you couldn't export things from it. Also the map maker should have access to another option which completely locks the map.

[Diege]

people stealing your map and calling it their own is bad but worst of all is when you spend hours balancing and making an amazing map then some one comes in behind you totally screws it up and DOESN'T take your name off it. That sucks cause then everyone thinks you stink at map making when really your amazing!:mad2:

[SilverCrusader]

If you're very good with triggers than your probably in the Expert Catagory.
I'd be a Master Trigger Theorist, very few people will actually reach that rank. It takes alot to reach it. Not many people are expert mappers either, there are tons of intermediate mappers, and fewer novice mappers, and even fewer noob mappers. Most mappers are either workers or modifiers. Very, very, very few are theorists.

[4046]

The editor, I guarentee is going to be just as good as WC 3's and then alot more.

I'm back too :)!

[SilverCrusader]

Oh yeah, I can't wait to see what limitations I can break.

[gamer102]

Modding
---General
------If Blizzard is still using some kind of .mpq file for all their sc2 data, even if it isn't an .mpq, I mean, unless they come up with their own unique mpq-type file with some kind of a little sc2 decryption code so they can open it eiasier then we can, people will find ways to solve what type of file they use, and either google an mpq-type program that can open it or somewhat edit the files in it. And people will do it! All they have to do is create a program that can read and write to a mpq-type file ( that is hard tho ) and then anything can happen.
---Maps
------Scripts
---------In Warcraft III, Blizzard's main map scripting was JASS, Blizzards' own little OOP, where you could access units in regions, matching conditions, tell them orders, as well as: creating and modifing variables, custom functions, finding script bugs (return bug: big bug that led to storing local variables and type-casting (ex: number i454 into a abil code))

And even still, i dont think people can even imagine what they could do if JASS was a little bit easier, they already started on creating geometry just by using mid-simple math algorithims. and since its design was mainly blizzards little OOP, anything is possible

---Models
------General
---------I think blizzard will be switching out of .mdl .mdx
------Importing
---------I think in the map editor, Blizzard will have model importers just like wc, maybe, if they want to keep sc original, they might not have as much stuff having to do with modding, but a whole bunch of stuff with making custom campaigns and such.

---AI
------Better AI manipulation then WC3 :) [trust me]

[4046]

Besides, if it isn't as good as we want it, we can just mod it and make it better.

I remember hearing somewhere that Blizzard said they would make those "hard coded" videos able to be made by players. Sadly, I have no proof of this but it would be awesome, you'd probably have to know how to program to make quality ones though. =)

[Asterisk]

You better as hell be able to change RoF and other previously unchanged atributes.

Also, does anyone know if there will be RoF ups for CERTAIN units?

[TitanWing]

Well I've been scared away from attempting UMS in SC2...melee owns. All I gotta do is do what I do best: terrain.

[ecyor0]

Just a thought... gone are the days when you could easily knock together a grp file to change the game... (although would 3D models be easier to work with?)

[SilverCrusader]

No worries Titan, thats why I'm your partner, that way you focus on the terrain and I'll do the rest :D.
Yes, you'd use 3D models, because it is a 3D engine. And they said what you can do by the editor is only limited by the engine itself :O

[gamer102]

You know, I think blizzard might switch to some 3d model type thats eaisier to work with, because creating an effect to the battlecruiser with the black hole... would be kinda hard with mdx (i think)

and i think that sc2 will be programed in c++, it might have a 10% chance that its in c#

[SilverCrusader]

C++ > C#
I hope it is done in C++, but there is a massive chance they made their own programming language.

[gamer102]

maybe... but thier own programming lang for sc2, i dont think so, they will have thier own scripting language for maps yeah, but i dont think they will have there own programming language... then all the platforms that the game runs on, would have to support it.

EDIT

Blizzard said that they were developing Starcraft II before C# came out but since this game might come out right now, They might switch over to C#, but then they would have to have a couple C++/C# programmers that could easily read the C++ source code and rewrite it in C# in about three weeks plus give or take a few days (I don't really know how long it would take)

SC2 In C++: 90%
SC2 In C#: 10%

[Fiendwurm]

there should be 2 trigger editors
normal: triggers form starcraft

advanced: like wc3 but easyer to understand

[TitanWing]

How about:

Melee editor: excellent for terrain and comes with a variety of tools for custom terrain, doodads and symmetry as well as a basic trigger editor. Basically just a SC2 SCMDraft.

UMS editor: capable of basic terrain, excellent for triggering and modding with tools for rapid trigger construction and the ability to change basic unit stats, then a more complex tool for hardcore modding.

[Protogod]

How about:

Melee editor: excellent for terrain and comes with a variety of tools for custom terrain, doodads and symmetry as well as a basic trigger editor. Basically just a SC2 SCMDraft.

UMS editor: capable of basic terrain, excellent for triggering and modding with tools for rapid trigger construction and the ability to change basic unit stats, then a more complex tool for hardcore modding.

Basically scxe and FG

[SilverCrusader]

Well, I hope they make a easy interface, because I'm not going to stand to be able to use the StarEdit interface after using SCMDraft for so long. WHY DO I HAVE TO OPEN A NEW WINDOW TO CHANGE THIS STAT?!!?!??!
Why can't I just click a tab?

[TitanWing]

More of a SCMDraft + Staredit and a SCXE + FG.

[Protogod]

More of a SCMDraft + Staredit and a SCXE + FG.

I meant to say that. ;)

[TitanWing]

Suuuure... :P

This system will probably further divide mappers into two categories:

Terrainers (myself)
Trigger/modders

Maps (good) will be made in teams much more often.

[Protogod]

Or by people who will learn both, like myself. Oh how I loathe teams...correction, the teams loathe me.

[SilverCrusader]

... I don't loathe you...

Titan and I can finally be dynamic :D.

[TitanWing]

Wewt.

[deadlyfighter10]

I think they should have a Custom Tileset like in Wc3 and they should have weather effects on diff tilesets (Mentioned alot),even if you have snow tileset and desert tiles set 2gether you would get effects on both.

[Diege]

Guys according to one of the video interviews of Starcraft II they said that they plan to release some of their art tools with the game. What do you think that means and how will you use them.

[pytum]

I think they should have a Custom Tileset like in Wc3 and they should have weather effects on diff tilesets (Mentioned alot),even if you have snow tileset and desert tiles set 2gether you would get effects on both.

yeah it will be nice;)

[Dark_hunter4]

Guys according to one of the video interviews of Starcraft II they said that they plan to release some of their art tools with the game. What do you think that means and how will you use them.

:o Sweet... uh get it and drool?
Then spend countless hours trying to figure onething out!

[TitanWing]

Or just say "whatever" and get to playing the game?

[SilverCrusader]

but we'll be stuck with blizz's maps -.-"

[TitanWing]

Now now Silver...I'm sure you'll play my maps when you get bored!

I ain't retiring with SC2, I'm keeping with the melee mapping. ;)

[Dark_hunter4]

Haha Titans maps ftw!!

[TitanWing]

Yay! +rep for all my fans!

[Mr.Bad]

...I'm your fan!

[SilverCrusader]

I'm your fan!

I'm not quitting mapping yet either :P, Lets come out with the first good map ;).

[pytum]

i think the hunters(map) and wheel of war(map), both from sc one,;) must be created on sc2

[DarkMirror]

I'm definitly a fan.
@ pytum: Now delete that goddamned slutty avatar and siggy, you random n00b.

[pytum]

what?? are you afraid of seeing a woman? damn... thats gay

[sdbolts11]

No pytum. He doesn't like seeing damn prostitutes. Your avatar is gay. Please, put in something else. Having a slut for your avatar is stupid...

[pytum]

its a model... but you may be right

[TitanWing]

Model and slut can often be the same people. ;)

BUT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAPPING/MODDING!

[Protogod]

BUT THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MAPPING/MODDING!

No, but more importantly it has to do with an ongoing problem that the mods keep overlooking.

[Neo]

I'm confused, are you people really that uncomfortable with a poorly cropped picture of a female model?
No, but more importantly it has to do with an ongoing problem that the mods keep overlooking.

What problem? You people hardly ever report posts, instead decide to bitch about them until one of us comes across it, or just bitch about how nothing gets down.

First off, the avatar is poorly cropped, and it shows nothing that you can't see on your local TV during prime time, or anytime on E!

Second off, seriously. My first reaction was to post something like "OMG IT'S A FEMALE, SHE BURNS!!!"

I mean really.

If you have a serious concern, ie; someone has an avatar that shows nudity and stuff, then sure, feel free to complain. But it is no up to you to decide what is ok and to tell other members how to display their avatars.

If you would like to discuss this issue further, feel free to PM me, but anyone who keeps harassing Pytum because of a tiny avatar sized picture of a model will get an infraction.

Now, go back to bitching about Starcraft plzkthx. -.-;;

-Neo

[Ktan]

They are uncomfortable because I am giving pytum too much 'leeway'. It's obvious to see that in time he will either calm down, or leave. Simply ignore any posts that you perceive to be below your standards and carry on instead.

Frankly, stopping by to go 'omg, pytum, lurn to spel' does nothing to make things better. He's not breaking any rules, he's just not very eloquent. If it's what he is saying is so distressing to you, use the ignore function instead. If I breaks a rule, I'll come down on him.

In the mean time, I'm closing any threads that are irrelevant or can be covered elsewhere. I'm not going to punish someone just because you guys don't like him.

And yes, he has received a formal notification that some of his conduct is irritating to other users.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Diege]

Neo, Ktan I thank you for your comments and the work that you do on these threads. I agree that people are being to hard on him. HOWEVER We as a community need to be helpful to people like him by teaching him how to act on these forums yelling at him won't help. Foster a growth in character and those things that irritate you so much tend to go away. Pytum your avatar is your choice... but remember it describes you...so expect to be treated like the person you're saying you are.

Agian Thank you Neo, Ktan... All of you moderators you do great work.

[Protogod]

I mean really.

If you have a serious concern, ie; someone has an avatar that shows nudity and stuff, then sure, feel free to complain. But it is no up to you to decide what is ok and to tell other members how to display their avatars.


If i get a 20 point infraction for saying im not christian in my avatar, i think near-porn is just as degrading, especially when it's frowned upon by a much larger audience.

[pytum]

thanx for the support!

[DarkMirror]

No, hes aying you should have your avatar deleted.

[Protogod]

No, hes aying you should have your avatar deleted.

Give him time, I'm sure someday he'll understand...dear god, I'll be dead by then.

[Faiien]

lets get back on topic
i personally have no exp in the field of mapping and modding complete noob at it but i love the creativeness of people that can actualy pull off a great map like lt or loki
what did you guys have in mind and what kind of maps are you planning to make?

[Protogod]

Melee. Campaigns and melee, mostly. I may do some adventures in triggerwork, though. A new shadow-expirament, as ive been trying in scbw.

[Faiien]

good stuff lets hope that other than awesome gameplay sc staff also gives us a kick butt map creator that will expand the possiblities

[SilverCrusader]

Before I make anything I'm going to practice alot with the editor, get everything down and settled at a level thats close to master, maybe expert if theres alot to learn. Than I'll make a few maps, as well as learn some more as soon as I do that, and try to find ways to exploit the editor, and do cool stuff. After I know exactly what I can and can't do with the editor, than I'll start pumping out maps.

[Neo]

Personally I'm hoping the new editor offers as much -- or more control -- over maps and the like as the War3 editor offered.

I'm also hoping, in the very back of my mind, that they'll add in older models to some of the units they've removed... like dragoons and the like. Since it would be kind of cool to be able to use them in SC2, even if they aren't standard units anymore.

-Neo

[DarkMirror]

Yeah, I'm betting that in some missions they will use the old units, even if thier only doodads effectivly.

[Diege]

I agree. I hope they have models for the units that they are taking out. Possibly the Medic, Firebat, Dragoon... I think it would be good. Especialy since they don't have creeps (don't get me wrong thats a good thing) that provide that wide range of Models to work from.

[pytum]

medic cannot be removed!! but since the UED was destroyed it may happen because the UED brought them to fight

the fleet in the koprulu sector not in the earth

[DarkMirror]

Use the edit button.

[SilverCrusader]

UED ran away.

[Faiien]

most of them died i think the new terran force is led by some other guy i guess the guy we saw in the gameplay demo

[Fiendwurm]

thats korhal becuse there red

back on topic: once sc2 comss out i'm going to star copying the maps i have made

[Faiien]

thats good news lots of people will be eager for new maps forsure and iam sure alot of map creators such as yourself will be doing the same thing

[Dark_hunter4]

Yea I might do that, given my campaign that I'm making goes well... lol.
Just one problem I see with that.. If I can't work the editor, then I can't figure out how to copy, and improve, my maps. It better be an easy to understand, but advanced editor.. or bliz pisses me off again..

[Faiien]

lets hope the game comes with a kick butt map editor and an awsum map editor tutorial which runs by you all the tools at your disposal XD

[JarquaFelmu]

After reading up on the Level designer job on blizzard's employment page here (http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp/level-designer.shtml) its looking a lot like to me that the starcraft 2 editor is going to be based off the Warcraft 3 editor, if not exactly it with a mask.

[IceSkirt]

After reading up on the Level designer job on blizzard's employment page here (http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp/level-designer.shtml) its looking a lot like to me that the starcraft 2 editor is going to be based off the Warcraft 3 editor, if not exactly it with a mask.

Sweet! I luv the wc3 editor, but i hate wc3 so I dont use it often.

[TheDriver]

whats the point of having that type of editor when the learning curve is that steep?
Dude , its mot that hard in acuality. Its pretty easy to start off with, plus you can always ask a WC3:TFT Map Editor, beacause im assuming they'll be pretty similar.

[Dark_hunter4]

Yes, but you have to be in EXTREME detail when explaining to me, had 20+ page thread on WC3 editor..
I read it, and I guess I'm screwed...

[Faiien]

i heard that the sc2 map editor is gonna be even better than the wc3tft editor and more user friendly

[DarkMirror]

Yay!
I used the WCIII editor, and although is fricking good at terrain, it is nowhere near as user friendly as SC's. I mean, it dosent even have a "delete" button on the tool bar.

[Dark_hunter4]

Yay for user friendlyness!
Yea, WC3 editor allowed more terrian options vs SC's but it was a little more complicated.

[TitanWing]

When I get SC2, I'll jump right into the editor as a melee mapper as is my current focus with BW. After I get the feel for it, I'll possibly start a little campaign (1 race, 10 or so missions) to get the feel for triggers and some other basic changes.

[SilverCrusader]

*jumps up and down*
Can me do the hard triggers!

[TitanWing]

I'll call you up when I start. :D

[Dark_hunter4]

And call me up when you finish. :)

[TitanWing]

Lol, will do. :)

[SilverCrusader]

lol, shouldn't take too long ;)

[gamer102]

After reading up on the Level designer job on blizzard's employment page here (http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp/level-designer.shtml) its looking a lot like to me that the starcraft 2 editor is going to be based off the Warcraft 3 editor, if not exactly it with a mask.


sc2 will have more functions then, at least a couple becuz there were hp and mp in wc3 NOW theres hp mp and sheild in sc2

[Faiien]

is aw in an interview somwhere that blizz said that a noob at the map editor could build a playable map in about 15 minutes and they said the possiblities for pros were limitless -_-

[Dark_hunter4]

Woot, that means kickass maps ftw.. AT LEAST... I hope. If not, more work for you titan. :P

[shadow123456789]

I agree that they need a tutorial with it. The Help file on SC Map Editor is appalling, as it only explains half of the things it should. Hopefully on SC2 they do an Active tutorial (As in one that actually shows you what to do by making you do it.)

[SilverCrusader]

Woot, that means kickass maps ftw.. AT LEAST... I hope. If not, more work for you titan.
Lookie titan, you have fans :P

I agree that they need a tutorial with it. The Help file on SC Map Editor is appalling, as it only explains half of the things it should. Hopefully on SC2 they do an Active tutorial (As in one that actually shows you what to do by making you do it.)
I'll be sure to write one if the current one is lacking

[shadow123456789]

I'll be sure to write one if the current one is lacking

:D

Make sure you include all sorts of random pieces of info in it!

[Dark_hunter4]

Lookie titan, you have fans :P


You caught me!
But seriously, I do look forward to this.

[TitanWing]

Hehe, I bribed a bunch of fans with +rep. :D

But yes, I fully intend to make a SC2 campaign. Though it will be a small project of no more than 15 levels and not too many drastic changes.

Probably a continuation of the SC2 storyline, or about vaguely described events in-game.

[Faiien]

sorry iam going off topic but i really wanna know how do you rep people?

[TitanWing]

Under the avatar is a little button with a "T" next to the "!" warn button.

+rep for helping you! :P

[pytum]

i think that sc2 has to has a more difficult AI... and the editor must have a well-written and non-complicated help contents and also clear definitions of each trigger...

[Dragonboyjgh]

HOW IS THERE EVEN POSTS IN THIS!! Blizzard hasn't even released the game yet, and your'e already talkking about whether or not you like it'sm applications, ease of use, etc. Dude! What's up with that!

[DarkMirror]

Its called imagination. Get used to it.

[SilverCrusader]

It is called they screw one thing up we're never going to let them forget it...

[Dark_hunter4]

It is called they screw one thing up we're never going to let them forget it...
Agreed

[pytum]

about the editor of sc2 i hope that includes those minerals chunks and gas orbs, missiles, psi storm, you know... all those objects that it will be fun to have them at hand to make a very good starcraft 2 map!!

that avoids the necessity of download stardraft or stargraft or whatever...

[DarkMirror]

Different engine, those wont work.

[TitanWing]

How do you know?

[Dragonboyjgh]

Its called imagination. Get used to it.

DIDN'T YOU HEAR?! that died because of television! it no longer exists in the mass populous

[TitanWing]

Back on topic.

I hope you can now start units like dropships with units in them, rather than needing to create the units underneath them.

[Dark_hunter4]

Back on topic.

I hope you can now start units like dropships with units in them, rather than needing to create the units underneath them.
That would be sooo nice, save a little block of terrain so you dont have to put units there to load them into the dropship. What do you guys think about the upgrades? HT upgrade increases energy capacity=PWNED lol. :shiftyl:

[DarkMirror]

ITS A 3D engine. Of course the old programs wont work, and the editor will probably have editing systems built in.

[Dark_hunter4]

ITS A 3D engine. Of course the old programs wont work, and the editor will probably have editing systems built in.
Pls don't yell at me, I think there will be new upgrades btw.

[Basan]

I hope you can now start units like dropships with units in them, rather than needing to create the units underneath them.

There are currently other ways around it. You can always create the Dropship and units someplace else, load it and then teleport it to the place you want it to start it's run. ;)

[Dark_hunter4]

There are currently other ways around it. You can always create the Dropship and units someplace else, load it and then teleport it to the place you want it to start it's run. ;)
But does that solve the terrain usage problem?

[DarkMirror]

if you do it somewhere where theres room.

[Basan]

But does that solve the terrain usage problem?

If I posted it, what do ya think? :P

[Dark_hunter4]

Ya good point, I guess. If you have the create units triggers.. it will be just fine.. if ya know what I mean.

[TitanWing]

It only creates unneccessary work, having units start in a dropship is much more straightforward.

[Dark_hunter4]

I know, instead of taking up trigger space(even though it is unlimited), however, location space isn't.

[Ktan]

There are currently other ways around it. You can always create the Dropship and units someplace else, load it and then teleport it to the place you want it to start it's run. ;)

I think titan's point is that now, there shouldn't have to be a way around it. Also, units starting in bunkers would be good too. It just means you don't have to garrison everything at the start, which could look a bit sloppy.

[TitanWing]

Exactly. Why make something so simple require triggers? You can put scarabs in reavers and interceptors in carriers, but not units in transports or bunkers.

[SilverCrusader]

Because they didn't have enough time to add all the features they wanted into StarEdit.

[blackstar2168]

Things I want to see in SCII editor:
variables (and being able to do math with them)
If...Then...Else
more things the game can detect (like when spell is cast or health of unit)
locations in any shape you want (not just a rectangle)
change more unit stats (like cooldown unit speed)
support of more audio formats (mp3)
place square terrain and sprites (like SCMdraft2)

[Dark_hunter4]

Things I want to see in SCII editor:
variables (and being able to do math with them)
If...Then...Else

I'd have to agree with this, variables make it possible for lots of things to happen, more than the switch randomization.

more things the game can detect (like when spell is cast or health of unit)

Hey, that could be very useful, unit casts spell, and uhh EXPLODES!! Why not?

locations in any shape you want (not just a rectangle)
That would work, instead of having to cover the whole area and then some, just the area you want..


change more unit stats (like cooldown unit speed)
support of more audio formats (mp3)

I'm pretty sure they might include the stat changing, but they should the sounds in the editor, they did on WC3's editor, made it a little more convienent for people to add sounds.
place square terrain and sprites (like SCMdraft2)
Also I think they know about SCMDraft2, and have already implemented the terrain shape into the map editor, but sprites?

[SilverCrusader]

there will be no such thing as square terrain, because of the 3D landscape that is no longer possible to use 2D squares.

[TitanWing]

And the terrain tool will be more powerful and the terrain will have a greater variety.

You will find what you need for UMS maps and whatnot. It won't look as shitty as UMS games do now. The terrain will actually look nice.

[shadow123456789]

And there will be no such thing as sprites either. Sprites are 2D images. :D They would call them something else...

[TitanWing]

"Graphics" or "Miscellaneous animations" perhaps.

"effects"... the list goes on.

[SilverCrusader]

I'm giving up on simplistic terrain for UMS maps, I want to have good terrain :D

[Keishun]

I must say, after viewing the 20+ min gameplay video featuring the units and terrain in space, it really has intrigued me into how good the map editor will be. If it will be able to do even something close to what I saw on the gameplay video, then I'm satisfied. Things such as the same level of terrain having hills and ups and downs, as well as just being able to build more freely makes it very nice.

[shadow123456789]

We need shaped terrain as well. Such as circle, square, triangle. Maybe the ability to import a Mask to create your own terrain shape.

[Basan]

It only creates unneccessary work, having units start in a dropship is much more straightforward.

I was referring to the current method he could use in SC-BW. *Meh* :P

And to put the units in transports would be hellishly useful. I don't recall if you already can do it in WC3-TFT but am leaning to a no.

Although may I also point that in WC3-TFT we currently don't have inverted ramps (to the best of my knwoledge), so... :concern:

[SilverCrusader]

You don't need inverted ramps in SCII, you just rotate the camera around and place a ramp like it was forward

[TitanWing]

Lol, Basan...you didn't know that?

[pytum]

You don't need inverted ramps in SCII, you just rotate the camera around and place a ramp like it was forward

nice feature... but what is wc3 tft ?? i dont play wc3...

[DarkMirror]

Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne.

[Basan]

You don't need inverted ramps in SCII, you just rotate the camera around and place a ramp like it was forward

Have seen ramp doodads before in some odd site that now I think it's lost. And to make a ramp I usually use it's terrain editor tool bar and merge the different ground levels to my liking. Obviously it works in every direction. (Camera rotations are for wussies. :P)

[Dark_hunter4]

(Camera rotations are for wussies. :P)
Ouch basan, thats a painful one there, lol.
Don't hurt my map producers like that.

[pytum]

i hope that the special shield of the immortal can be changeable in the editor!!!! yay super ums maps!!

[ryuugaki]

The only "mod" tool I want..

No wait, I want it all.

[SilverCrusader]

What I can imagine what we can do with the editor... is so good...

[TitanWing]

Indeed...

[Dark_hunter4]

*Thinks of all the possiblities*
*drools*

[pytum]

well... i hope that they could add a more explicit info about the triggers in the editor,

but... will we be able to make animations during gameplay like almost the quality of a cinematic? i would like it...

[Protogod]

like they said that they will do??

dont recall that Q&A

But beware, the cinematic system from AoM was kind hard to get right. If SC2 ends up like that, it will bring forth a new wave of crappy movie maps.

[SilverCrusader]

Proto, there is one thing you must understand, there will always be crappy maps, 80% - 90% of all maps are very much shitty.

[Protogod]

But are you prepared to defend it when 90-95% are shitty?

[TitanWing]

Hey...there's still me, 1iCH, Proto (and several others who are improving, but not QUITE there yet) for melee!

[Protogod]

Hey...there's still me, 1iCH, Proto for melee!

ggnore dutch. Our resident dinosaur is overlooked.

[sdbolts11]

Hey...there's still me, 1iCH, Proto (and several others who are improving, but not QUITE there yet) for melee!
Yeah, some of your maps are good. Don't know much about SC mapping but it seems that the ones with an expo right next to their main are the only ones that are considered good. For me, any map that is balanced and works well is fine. I don't worry too much about doodads and stuff. Some of the tilesets don't look so well anyways.

However, FPS multiplayer, especially CS:S is a totally different story. You need an attractive and look realistic in some way or another. Sadly, some of the most popular maps are these symmetrical shit that aren't even attractive or have a realistic setting or anything. Just really basic stuff that somehow found it's way to become popular. The best maps are easily the originals made by Valve, although I've seen some half-decent to very good maps that you would never see on CS:S servers, except several. There's a few maps I've seen on CS:S sites that would have blown Valve out of the water, but I've never seen them played on any CS:S servers, which is quite sad.

Anyways, back to SC, that 10-15% of maps that are good still is a lot, and those are the maps that are played. I respect the time and creativity of mappers and hope they make more good maps xD

[TitanWing]

Yeah, some of your maps are good. Don't know much about SC mapping but it seems that the ones with an expo right next to their main are the only ones that are considered good. For me, any map that is balanced and works well is fine. I don't worry too much about doodads and stuff. Some of the tilesets don't look so well anyways.
The ones with "naturals" (learn your SC street lingo already, you've been on for 2 weeks now) are favored because Zerg stand a chance of winning on those maps! Any map is balanced? I guess I won't ever let you host when we play...

And stop blabbering about CS:S again...it has nothing to do with SC.

[sdbolts11]

You misunderstood. I said any map THAT is balanced is fine for me. Not any map is balanced. ROFL! Well, and I was just reminiscing on the good old days...

[SilverCrusader]

SC isn't perfectly balanced, or else every race would be exactly the same w/ different graphics.

[sdbolts11]

Correct. It is impossible to balance an RTS. Now what is your inequality Akar?>

[Ktan]

It's widely accepted that StarCraft is as balanced as it gets for a game with asymmetrical factions.

[TitanWing]

Correct. It is impossible to balance an RTS. Now what is your inequality Akar?>
Not impossible, just so difficult it will never happen.

[Artanis186]

Overall, I would say, they shouldn't make the game moddable (not visibly I mean). sure, I love modding, when I saw the Warcraft 3 editor, I fell in love with the things I could do, then I started playing mods on starcraft, a few years later, I learned a bit on how to mod. To summarize, I want to mod the game, but not with Blizzard putting in the modding features. We here need a challenge and need to learn how to mod SC 2. It seems it shall be a lot harder. *goes to download 3dmax thingy*.

[Case_in_point]

We here need a challenge and need to learn how to mod SC 2. It seems it shall be a lot harder. *goes to download 3dmax thingy*.

I don't know about other modders, but I never modded SC to challenge myself. I did it because I had a vision of how I wanted a project to be and the current SC setup did not allow for it, so I altered it. If I want a challenge, I'll go program my own game.

[shadow123456789]

Overall, I would say, they shouldn't make the game moddable (not visibly I mean). sure, I love modding, when I saw the Warcraft 3 editor, I fell in love with the things I could do, then I started playing mods on starcraft, a few years later, I learned a bit on how to mod. To summarize, I want to mod the game, but not with Blizzard putting in the modding features. We here need a challenge and need to learn how to mod SC 2. It seems it shall be a lot harder. *goes to download 3dmax thingy*.

You... Liked the WC3 World Editor? :o ... Uh, back on track, if Blizzard is against modding, then they'll try to make the editor powerful and simple enough to beat modding. E.G.; The WC3 WE. Although I despise it in almost every way possible(Due to it's infuriating difficulty.) I still find it great that you can add Custom Units, with custom abilities, animations, models, statuses and upgrades. If Blizzard adds to that and makes the Map Editor easier to use, they'll be a HUGE winner.

[pytum]

the old units from starcraft one will be on sc2 editor!!! also the scratched ones (like tempest and soul hunter)http://www.gamespot.com/news/6176199.html?action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;2

and sc legacy

[DarkMirror]

ZOMG! Multiple story paths, in-between game interactions, CANTINAS! ZOMG!Must have... before... heart gives out for longing...


Please...

[Protogod]

Multiple story paths
which all end up at the same ending to avoid canon confusion. <3

[Basan]

which all end up at the same ending to avoid canon confusion. <3

Yup, they don't want to make the campaigns "D&D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons) in space" too... ;p

[DarkMirror]

Yes, but still...

[SilverCrusader]

Correct. It is impossible to balance an RTS. Now what is your inequality Akar?
Though I try to stick to being nice, I have a tendicy to beat noobs that ask funny questions.

[sdbolts11]

ROFL!
Wasn't you inequality: Z > P > T > Z
Yup that was it. Now how does that work?

[TitanWing]

This has what to do with mapping?

Seriously SD, this isn't your thread, you're not a mapper/modder.

[Protogod]

Seriously SD, this isn't your thread, you're not a mapper/modder.

Allow me: Gtfo, bolts.

[SilverCrusader]

what were we talking about again?

[TitanWing]

I forget.

We need one of those "Blame Dunchy" sigs...only make it "Blame SDbolts". :P

[Fiendwurm]

one thing that i want is the ablitly to give unit ablitys to others like make a marine be able to blink, the ablity to creat the effects of spells, and to swap the little things about units that make them speashal like make a ground unit be able to be attacked by things that can only attack air (like the clossus), or my favorate idea, make the weapons function like the clossus weapon and make rienes the can mow down swarms.

[Protogod]

That all falls under modding that would currently be done with 3rd party programs. Although blizz did want to support their modding community as well with sc2.

[SilverCrusader]

If the editor is as good as it is supposed to be we should be able to program our own skills via SCII programming language... which would probably be the only way to make it gosu.

[Ktan]

What do you all think about the inclusion of 'scrapped' units (and perhaps even a few SC 1 units) in the new map editor?

(Look, I'm heralding and fixing the discussion!)

[DarkMirror]

I like it. then we can have kickass SC:BW-SC2 campaigns. And I so want to use the tempests.