View Full Version : Dell Brings XP Back to Mainstream
Modred
04-21-2007, 3:29 AM
Dell brings back XP on home sytems (http://news.com.com/2100-1046-6177619.html?tag=tb)
Responding to user polls on their IdeaStorm blog, Dell has announced they will once again sell Inspiron notebooks and Dimension desktops factory standard with Windows XP, effective immediately. Of course, Microsoft appears to be playing this off as a simple, run of the mill allowance of releasing a new operating system, but it's still a bit interesting that the idea garnered enough support to sway Dell.
However, the poll in question, is relatively low compared to some other recent newsmakers on the IdeaStorm blog. More popular polls range from pre-installed linux at #1, pre-installed OpenOffice.org instead of MS Works at #2, and pre-installed and set to default Firefox at #3, down to more trivial things like redesigning the XPS cases to a more aesthetically pleasing look or putting a web cam in all laptops. But regardless of it's low ranking compared to the top 3, it's still garnered quite a bit of publicity and enough presence to move Dell to action.
Both with this and with the announcement to support Linux starting this May, I'm finding Dell to be more and more responsive to their consumers. Of course, that still doesn't make their low end computers any better. Yuck.
Could this be the start of a trend for distributors selling (almost) exclusively Windows Vista computers? It's tempting to predict doom and gloom for Vista at this point, but given that this only got around 1/8th the support as adding Linux and that many people buying new computers will opt for Vista simply because it's billed as safer and more "fun", I doubt it will have that much of an impact.
Shortyland05
04-21-2007, 5:44 AM
Although, those who are smart... (as in those who know what 'Benchmark' Means) would probably stick with XP... at least until SP1 comes out. But thats if SP1 delivers...
the whole preinstall of linux on dells just piss me off a great deal :E
At least the XP thing is good.
-Neo
the whole preinstall of linux on dells just piss me off a great deal :E
Why's that?
Why's that?
Because it's beyond pointless?
-Neo
Because it's beyond pointless?
-Neo
I wouldn't say that. It forces Dell to ensure their hardware works with Linux, so if they try to stick you with a Dell-branded wireless card or printer, they would have to write Linux drivers. It would also set a precedent for hardware manufacturers to write Linux drivers if they want their hardware to be used in Dell Linux machines. I think it's a good thing everyone. Linux has excellent support for a lot of high end hardware for this very reason.
I wouldn't say that. It forces Dell to ensure their hardware works with Linux, so if they try to stick you with a Dell-branded wireless card or printer, they would have to write Linux drivers. It would also set a precedent for hardware manufacturers to write Linux drivers if they want their hardware to be used in Dell Linux machines. I think it's a good thing everyone. Linux has excellent support for a lot of high end hardware for this very reason.
...The point being that linux enthusiasts -- those who might actually be interested in these types of computers, are going to have built their own.
For the normal person, preloading linux is a bad idea. "But mom, why won't this game work!?" "Why can't I open this file?" etc... The list goes on.
Dell's support isn't all that great now, and you think preloading linux is going to help that?
It's a bad idea that caters to only the Linux fanboys who somehow think surprising linux on normal people is going to make it more popular.
I'm not anti-linux or anything. I've run a few distros in the past, but it's just... not a good idea.
Linux may have the support. But people who buy these Dells aren't going to go looking for that -- they'll go straight to Dell. And who knows HOW they'll handle that.
Personally I would assume that Dell should focus on getting better support, and perhaps looking into selling computers that aren't preloaded with a bunch of bullshit bloated software and/or trials/demos/etc...
-Neo
...The point being that linux enthusiasts -- those who might actually be interested in these types of computers, are going to have built their own.
As of the last set of numbers I saw, the majority of new PC sales are laptops. You can build your own laptop, but it's not worth the time or effort. It's cases like this where you have custom Dell hardware that Linux support is really crucial.
It's not like they're going to sneak Linux in. I'm sure you'll have to jump through an extra hoop to get it so you can't buy it unless you specifically want to.
The point being that if their windows support isn't all that great, then their own linux support isn't going to be all that great either.
-Neo
The point being that if their windows support isn't all that great, then their own linux support isn't going to be all that great either.
-Neo
What is unsatisfying about their Windows support? Crapware is a feature that they get paid for so that's not going away.
That people who are paid for support couldn't help my grandfather with something simple after he called them like 5 times over it?
...My grandfather had the intarwebz goin back during the days of prodigy and stuff -- he's not exactly a novice.
-Neo
King_Critter
05-14-2007, 3:11 AM
For the normal person, preloading linux is a bad idea. "But mom, why won't this game work!?" "Why can't I open this file?" etc... The list goes on.
After using Ubuntu (which also happens to be the distro Dell's going to be preloading) for the last couple of weeks, I have to say that those things you mentioned aren't really a big deal. For the game thing, there's a little thing called wine. Not the most stable app I've ever used (though that could just be from installing it on a 64-bit of Ubuntu when the Wine developers don't officially support 64-bit) but it gets the job done.
As for file types, Ubuntu supports more file types then does windows out of the box. The only thing that's lacking is multimedia codecs. However, in Feisty Fawn (the newest Ubuntu release) a little alert box pops up the first time you try to play an MP3 or DVD, telling you what's missing and why. Then it asks you if you want to download the missing codecs. Click yes, and a few seconds (or minutes, if you're on dial-up :P) later, you're watching the latest Girls Gone Wild DVD. Or whatever.
My thoughts on the whole thing is that using Ubuntu is a lot less hard then installing and configuring it, so even complete computer newbs will be fine [with the preloaded systems]. In fact, I think they'd be better off using Ubuntu, 'cause how many Windows users do you know that never run malware checks -- or even know what malware is -- and, thus, have computers that would loose a race with a snail? Or at worst, have been turned into a zombie computer? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_zombie)
But with Linux + Firefox by default, you wouldn't have that problem at all.
neo, get over it
there'll probably be less pointless support going on with Ubuntu, due to less malware and more robust design.
it's very much usable for day-to-day stuff, and for the stuff you depend on windows to do, wine is improving week by week.
chances are there are great alternatives to your must-have software -- or you might not even need them at all.
Modred
05-14-2007, 3:25 PM
...My grandfather had the intarwebz goin back during the days of prodigy and stuff -- he's not exactly a novice.
And my grandmother spent most of her life as a secretary and could type properly (and fast) on a typewriter, yet she uses only two fingers when typing on a computer. True story.
neo, get over it
there'll probably be less pointless support going on with Ubuntu, due to less malware and more robust design.
it's very much usable for day-to-day stuff, and for the stuff you depend on windows to do, wine is improving week by week.
chances are there are great alternatives to your must-have software -- or you might not even need them at all.
Just because you two enjoy using linux and find very little problems with it means nothing.
The average person is going to have a harder time with it then they would with a windows.
Stop trying to claim it wouldn't. I don't want alternatives to my software -- I want the actual software. If that means I have to stay on windows, so be it.
Trying to teach grandparents, or even my own mother how to use linux which has a replacement for EVERY program, just so they can do the same thing they used to with windows is fucking worthless. I can just install some av software and thats that.
Modred: how does that story correlate at all?
Get off your linux fanboy/girl -isms. It's not a good idea, and it won't work for mainstream.
-Neo
Modred
05-17-2007, 12:19 AM
Modred: how does that story correlate at all?
Because my grandmother was once more or less a master at typing and now she can't get over 10 words a minute. Just because your grandpa had the internet going back in the day doesn't mean everything should be simple as pie now.
And let's not even pretend that "just install some AV software and that's that" makes the computer secure. Your average, non computer savvy grandparent will still get spyware, viruses, and a host of other bad stuff from simply not knowing what they shouldn't click on online. And unless your scans are set to run automatically, they will probably never run them. Or if they're like my grandmother, they will turn the computer off when they aren't using it, so scheduled scans never run. That's real security, for you. *rolls eyes*
let's have a civilized argument with sources (http://www.knightwise.com/content/view/15) to to support (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_for_your_parents_uncles_and_aunts_No_tech_s upport_anymore4/9/) said points.
neo, your attitude is one of a power user, and because ubuntu is not windows, ubuntu clearly sucks.
by the way, why are you saying linux is harder (iow, source pls)? it's different. ubuntu is not windows, so things work differently. not to be confused with hard, which is easy to do when you're biased due to windows power-usage.
the "but i want MY software" problem is not the case with most people. i care about what the software does, not how.
for your grandparents.. either they are entrenched to what they use or you are just not interested to "upgrade" them, which is okay given your attitude.
King_Critter
05-18-2007, 2:02 AM
Just because you two enjoy using linux and find very little problems with it means nothing.
Just because you enjoy using windows and find very little problems with it means nothing.
The average person is going to have a harder time with it then they would with a windows.
Stop trying to claim it wouldn't. I don't want alternatives to my software -- I want the actual software. If that means I have to stay on windows, so be it.
Trying to teach grandparents, or even my own mother how to use linux which has a replacement for EVERY program, just so they can do the same thing they used to with windows is fucking worthless. I can just install some av software and thats that.
Oh noes, they can't use Microsoft Word anymore, so they have to use *gasp* Open Office! Hmm... I don't know about you, but even I can't tell the difference between the two.
Email? Well, Ubuntu ships with Evolution mail. I haven't even touched it, so I can't say much about it -- but I'm relatively sure it's close enough to Outlook not to notice. That's how it was with Thunderbird, so I'm just going to guess that email programs interfaces are pretty much the same across the board.
As for Internet, we have Firefox. I'm guessing you can't find much to complain about in that now, can you? :P
So I just mentioned the top 3 things most people do on their computers. Well, that and play solitaire, of course. :P (And Ubuntu does come with a multitude little games like that, including a few variations of solitaire.)
Now, for someone who's a bit more experienced with computers, and needs a slightly more specialized program... Well, as you mentioned, there's an alternative to every program on Windows -- most of which really aren't that different. And if you absolutely need a Windows app, there's Wine. Like I mentioned before. Though I might mention, there's a lot of commonly used programs for windows that have Linux ports. (Or they're Linux apps with Windows ports.... :P) Firefox, Thunderbird, Gaim, Gimp, Blender...
Modred
05-18-2007, 2:45 AM
And if you absolutely need a Windows app, there's Wine. Like I mentioned before.
In Neo's defense: Wine (mostly) sucks, it's very iffy across different distributions, often with little to no logical explanation.
Doesn't VMWare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMware) cut it too (to some extent at least)? :confused:
Shortyland05
05-18-2007, 8:04 AM
Ive tried linux...
1st, the internet wouldnt go past the distro's homepage
2nd, wouldn't play mp3s (WTF??!?!?!)
3rd, had to 'code' extra stuff in and learning the code to me is like going to school (not cool)
4th, I like the idea of linux and all, its just not noob friendly. I would rather stay with XP (permanently borrowed edition)
Modred
05-18-2007, 2:05 PM
Ive tried linux...
1st, the internet wouldnt go past the distro's homepage
Sounds like you weren't connected. They load a start page onto the computer that displays whenever you open the browser, but you can't go anywhere if you aren't online. ;)
2nd, wouldn't play mp3s (WTF??!?!?!)
MP3 is patented technology and every time someone uses an MP3 they are supposed to send fees to the German research company that developed the technology. It's generally a few clicks to enable MP3 support, you just have to know what those are. (Google = friend)
3rd, had to 'code' extra stuff in and learning the code to me is like going to school (not cool)
Not sure what's going on here. If your linux experience was any time within the last three or four years, this shouldn't have been happening. Really, I have no idea what you're talking about.
4th, I like the idea of linux and all, its just not noob friendly. I would rather stay with XP (permanently borrowed edition)
It sounds like the vast majority of your problems would have been solved with a little effort. The only reason everyone thinks Windows is "easy" is because they've been using it for over a decade. Take someone who isn't familiar with the Windows paradigms, my dad for one, and you end up with more or less the same problem you had on linux.
let's have a civilized argument with sources (http://www.knightwise.com/content/view/15) to to support (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Ubuntu_for_your_parents_uncles_and_aunts_No_tech_s upport_anymore4/9/) said points.
neo, your attitude is one of a power user, and because ubuntu is not windows, ubuntu clearly sucks.
The point is that my parent and my grandparents know how to do things now. To completely flip around their computer to linux, just because its "more secure" or whatever would be worthless at this point. Instead of, "hey how to I do this" it will be "why doesn't the internet work like it use to!?"
by the way, why are you saying linux is harder (iow, source pls)? it's different. ubuntu is not windows, so things work differently. not to be confused with hard, which is easy to do when you're biased due to windows power-usage.
I never wanted to claim it was harder, however for me, it would be much more complicated to have to reteach my relatives simple things that windows does out of the box. Not to mention that some of the stuff my grandfather uses (photo organizing and the like) has no linux alternative (that he could, like, use).
the "but i want MY software" problem is not the case with most people. i care about what the software does, not how.
It's more of a case with most average people. They aren't going to care that Office isn't going to work on linux, they are just going to want it. Your problem is that you are a "linux power-user" (as if this is an insult?) and can't see past your own attitude regarding windows.
for your grandparents.. either they are entrenched to what they use or you are just not interested to "upgrade" them, which is okay given your attitude.
They are older, I've no wish to sit there and try to reteach them how to use stuff. I recently built them a new computer and seriously contimplated Linux, however opted for Windows, because its what they know, and it is relatively simple to safegaurd it (Windows Defender, AV stuff, etc...) To this date, even browsing with IE6 (they don't like IE7 -- so switching to Linux probably not gonna work) they've not had any spyware or malware issues.
unless you count Symantec 30-day trial as malware
--
Just because you enjoy using windows and find very little problems with it means nothing.
Windows is not a flawed OS. I'm so tired of people just saying it "sucks" without anything more substantial than "oh well this happened to me..." -- Guess what? You suck at using computers, good job!
I say windows sucks occasionally but I'm usually joking. Yes it isn't the best by far, but it gets the job done, and it is fine for an average user.
Oh noes, they can't use Microsoft Word anymore, so they have to use *gasp* Open Office! Hmm... I don't know about you, but even I can't tell the difference between the two.
OO.Org isn't Office. Let me know when the mainstream companies switch from Office to OO.Org -- then we will talk. The fact is that OO.Org is not Office. Just another alternative...
Email? Well, Ubuntu ships with Evolution mail. I haven't even touched it, so I can't say much about it -- but I'm relatively sure it's close enough to Outlook not to notice. That's how it was with Thunderbird, so I'm just going to guess that email programs interfaces are pretty much the same across the board.
Yeah, you've obviously not dealt with various email solutions. Hell, it was complicated enough explaining to my grandparents that they didn't need to goto a website to check their mail anymore (Grandfather got broadband, lol) and I ended up having to show them how to use Outlook Express, because, for one, they didn't have Outlook (office) and their current computer was a celeron/low memory/crappy pos that would've choked on thunderbird.
As for Internet, we have Firefox. I'm guessing you can't find much to complain about in that now, can you? :P
I still haven't introduced them to Firefox. I considered it strongly, but unlike others, I don't enjoy springing new things on people. (IE7 upgrade anyone?)
So I just mentioned the top 3 things most people do on their computers. Well, that and play solitaire, of course. :P (And Ubuntu does come with a multitude little games like that, including a few variations of solitaire.)
The problem is you are talking about alternatives, no matter how similar they are they are not the same. Which is where the problem lies.
Now, for someone who's a bit more experienced with computers, and needs a slightly more specialized program... Well, as you mentioned, there's an alternative to every program on Windows -- most of which really aren't that different. And if you absolutely need a Windows app, there's Wine. Like I mentioned before. Though I might mention, there's a lot of commonly used programs for windows that have Linux ports. (Or they're Linux apps with Windows ports.... :P) Firefox, Thunderbird, Gaim, Gimp, Blender...
In Neo's defense: Wine (mostly) sucks, it's very iffy across different distributions, often with little to no logical explanation.
yeah. the few times I tried Wine, i was like, wtfux. then my slave box's hard drive flunked out and i gave up, lol.
The problem is that, and I've seen this across digg as well, and other places is that there is some hardcore linux fanisms going on. I admit that windows isn't the best, and I'd use linux in a heartbeat if it didn't mean giving up all the various stuff I use (color schemer, flashfxp, frontpage on occasion, etc...) I don't want alternatives, I want them. I know how to use Flashfxp. I don't want to switch to a different FTP program just because.
I'm not anti-linux, I'm just being realistic. People were dug down on digg for even bringing up the loss they'd take switching to open source stuff like linux or OO (talking about retraining the workers) with moronic comments about how those people shouldn't be working there if they are so stupid and the like.
The fact is that Office, for an example, is a standard suite that is used by most major, and most minor companies. So if you work at one, chances are the next one will use it as well.
Put "experience with OO.Org" on a resume and let me know how many places hire you (wtf is OpenOffice.org is probably a likely reaction).
Not to mention that as I see it, many OS solutions aren't ready for the mainstream.
Elitism sucks, but Linux has been seeing a huge surge in it lately. Don't get me wrong, most linux elitism attitudes are deserved (see: Seal =p) but cmon.
-Neo
King_Critter
05-19-2007, 1:49 AM
Windows is not a flawed OS. I'm so tired of people just saying it "sucks" without anything more substantial than "oh well this happened to me..." -- Guess what? You suck at using computers, good job!
That's odd, because I don't recall stating anywhere that Windows "sucked." Did I imply that? Perhaps, but not really intentionally. All I was doing was parroting your statement -- trying to show that it didn't make a whole lot of sense.
The problem is you are talking about alternatives, no matter how similar they are they are not the same. Which is where the problem lies.
Actually, my whole point was that the differences are slight enough not to matter for most people.
About photo organizing... I googled it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22Photo+Organizing%22+software+for+Linux&btnG=Search), and found a couple of likely matches.
But anyways, I think it would be more interesting to argue about who Linux is for, rather then who it isn't for.
Actually, my whole point was that the differences are slight enough not to matter for most people.
About photo organizing... I googled it (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=%22Photo+Organizing%22+software+for+Linux&btnG=Search), and found a couple of likely matches.
But anyways, I think it would be more interesting to argue about who Linux is for, rather then who it isn't for.
The the point! Linux is for power users, Linux is for people who might be termed competant to power computer users. I don't see linux as being all that capable of jumping into the mainstream as it is now.
Linux is nice alternative, and is certainly the best you could use to run a server with, however I just don't see it as that great of a Home OS. If, or Until WINE becomes more stable and stuff, I just don't see any reason to convert.
You also seem to missing the alternatives/similarities and stuff. People aren't going to want something "similar" they'll want something that is exactly the same. People are stubborn, lazy, or just don't know any better. Hell, my grandparents that the internet meant that little 'e' on their desktop =p
I'm not saying its a wholly bad idea, but Linux pre-installed caters to a very few subset of possible customers. Besides the fact that, even with Linux, the computer might be more expensive then a windows counterpart because of all the discounts they get with all that bullshit they pre-install on windows.
-Neo
Linux is for power users if you want to be a power user. With any desktop distro, you can surf the web, send e-mail, IM, manage photos, listen to music, etc. just as easily as you can with Windows. Having the ability to get your hands dirty doesn't mean you have to. I tend to agree with Dell distancing itself from WINE. If everything from Windows runs on Linux, there's no reason for developers to write Linux apps (see OS/2 and Windows 3.1).
Yeah, but even those simple tasks can be complicated for people who have experience with just Windows.
Similar does not = the same. We might not consider it that big of a deal, but all you have to look at are the browser fights =p
Why does it matter which one you use, they are all the same right?
Linux is a fine OS, but preinstalled for the idiot masses is a horrible idea, and the only reason people voted for it is because they are linux fans. As if because this is installed on a dell, suddenly linux will be known and loved and over take windows in 5 seconds!!1~
-Neo
Modred
05-19-2007, 11:14 PM
the only reason people voted for it is because they are linux fans.
No, we also get to pick up the rebellious, l33t speaking, obnoxious, script kiddies who think that using something besides Windows enhances their e-peen. =p
While the Linux market for Dell will be small, at least compared to Windows, I believe there will be enough demand to make it a worthwhile investment on Dell's end. When it comes to usability, I don't think there will be such a great difficulty in crossing from Windows to a desktop environment like KDE. However, because Ubuntu defaults with GNOME, there could be some issues, much like crossing over from Windows to OS X.
I have some friends who claim they can't even get online using OS X. How hard can it be to figure out you click on the web browser in the dock? People like that would never survive using Linux unless someone showed them what to do. But in those cases, it really isn't inability to use the system, so much as unwillingness to change. I guess that supports your argument, Neo.
King_Critter
05-20-2007, 1:45 AM
Besides the fact that, even with Linux, the computer might be more expensive then a windows counterpart because of all the discounts they get with all that bullshit they pre-install on windows.
-Neo
Lawl. A discount does not go into negitive numbers. <_<
XP Pro: $130 -- maybe $30 at the end.
Linux: free.
Though actually most manufacturers make the buyers pay the full price, no matter what they got it for. Don't know about Dell specificly, but I know that's what Alienware does. :-/
Lawl. A discount does not go into negitive numbers. <_<
Not that I'm defending the business practice of loading crapware, but there's no reason they couldn't make money off it. It's widely reported that Dell pays under $30-$40 per copy of Windows. If they get 10 companies to pay them $5 to install their software, they would be making more money than it costs for the Windows license, which would make it feasible for a Windows machine to cost less.
--snip--
in other words,
OMG, CHANGE!
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