Of Races and Factions: No More Races

[PowderBB3D]

My two cents on the "NEW RACES PLEASE" craze:

I don't particularly like the idea of the hybrids. Unless things were done extremely well, the very idea seems inherently unoriginal. A combination of two races would also effectively render the components of that race obsolete. Why play Protoss or Zerg when you could be both at once?

I don't know if a new race is even necessary. I'd much rather see modifications and improvements on the already existing ones.

A more interesting approach to "new races" might be "new factions." Each player could pick one of the three basic races - the Zerg, the Terran, or the Protoss. Then they pick a particular faction to control. For the most part the factions are all identical within each race save for a few key differences.

Terran - UED is probably one of the most obvious factions that comes to mind. The UED might be equipped with an extra aerial unit and battlecruisers with denser armor as well as a higher attack strength. They might be able cloak science vessels, or maybe the science vessels have access to an extra skill that normal Terran science vessels do not have (maybe they can cloak nearby units like arbiters, or target nuclear weapons like ghosts do). This comes from the idea that, for the most part, the UED is in an invasionary force into the K-sector; an invasion fascilitated more by their starships than ground forces.

The Zerg race might be subdivided by brood. Zerg - Fenris is one that is of particular interest to me. It's supposedly used to find species ripe for assimilation and for tracking down targets. To this end, Fenris could be given a power similar to the Dark Archon ability known as Mind Control. Assimilation of units would require a queen, and the queen could then command that unit. Fenris might also be bestowed faster zerglings or an additional ground unit that no other Zerg broods have to go along with the idea that they are used in tracking and quick assaults. Finally, Fenris is a very small brood made of some of the best zerg warriors; that said, units might be more expensive overall but have +1 armor, or +10 hp, or something to that extent.

The Protoss would find thier factions divided along tribal lines. One of my personal favorite tribes is Protoss - Sargas. They're known as assassins and are traditionally associated with the Dark Templar and individuality. A good benefit to using Sargas might lie in stronger Dark Templar, or an extra ability for the Dark Archon. To portray their disdain for the communal and love of the individual, Sargas might also require less psi for their units; as a result, however, all units save for the Dark Templar and Dark Archon might be about 10 or 20 hitpoints weaker than your traditional Protoss warriors.

These are just some ideas, but I think it's a bit better than spamming new races, especially if those new races are just rehashes of the old. Factions could offer a very specialized gameplay mechanic, wherein players could more easily access a race/faction that suited their gameplay flavor. Also, people like me (I play Terran only) would be able to vary their game from time to time without losing the core aspects of their favored race. All Terrans would have Marines, but some might have stroner Marines or maybe an extra ground unit that would complement the Marines (some type of sniper unit that has extremely long range and one hit kills on infantry but low HP and and rate-of-fire perhaps).

- P

[GhostFirebatD]

These sound like some great ideas Powder...however there is still the factor of the story line that you have to think about. They (Blizzard) wouldn't necessarily have to do the Protoss/Zerg hybrid race (hinted at in the secret level in BW), but it would make sense. However NOT having it would possibly make for a great plot twist. Or maybe you could even just use the hybrid race to a very limited extent.

[Darkslayer633]

sweet ideas man where did you get the idea for that what an awesome imanigation

great idea-but you can only hope

[PowderBB3D]

Thanks for the positive feedback. Feel free to post any of your ideas that follow these lines as well (maybe faction ideas - I pulled mine from the story and you can too, or you can make up some of your own that might make sense as new additions in the StraCraft universe).

I know that the hybrids would seem to make sense storywise, but to me it seems like they would unbalance the game and effectively render the Protoss and Zerg obsolete. What makes the game so great is that the races are vastly different; play styles vary greatly between the three. This aspect, which is core to the game, would be hard pressed to find its way into a game where some of the races were functionally the same.

- P

[GhostFirebatD]

Thanks for the positive feedback. Feel free to post any of your ideas that follow these lines as well (maybe faction ideas - I pulled mine from the story and you can too, or you can make up some of your own that might make sense as new additions in the StraCraft universe).

I know that the hybrids would seem to make sense storywise, but to me it seems like they would unbalance the game and effectively render the Protoss and Zerg obsolete. What makes the game so great is that the races are vastly different; play styles vary greatly between the three. This aspect, which is core to the game, would be hard pressed to find its way into a game where some of the races were functionally the same.

- P

If the hybrids were better then the Terrans, then the game would be a complete waste. If Blizzard managed to come up with a way to make the hybrids equal to the current three races (which would require them to have less or none of the Zerg's & Protoss' most special abilities) then it might work, but then the hybrids might be too weak.

[Asypra]

They (Blizzard) could do what they did for war 3 and make them only in the campains or in any maps you may or may not make, then they could be as powerfull as they (Blizzard) want and wouldn't really effect the multi

[Fenix-MSG]

Thanks for the positive feedback. Feel free to post any of your ideas that follow these lines as well (maybe faction ideas - I pulled mine from the story and you can too, or you can make up some of your own that might make sense as new additions in the StraCraft universe).

I know that the hybrids would seem to make sense storywise, but to me it seems like they would unbalance the game and effectively render the Protoss and Zerg obsolete. What makes the game so great is that the races are vastly different; play styles vary greatly between the three. This aspect, which is core to the game, would be hard pressed to find its way into a game where some of the races were functionally the same.

- P


It wouldn't exactly make them obsolete. Just because the hybrids are a mix of two races doesnt mean they carry everything. Actually they could carry almost nothing in common. I mean after all, you can have two parents with brown eyes and a child with blue eyes. They could be as different from the zerg and protoss as the protoss and zerg are from each other.

I dont really like the idea of no new races. You had a good idea with the factions, except UED should be a race. Or.. it should have been, but now maybe it wont make sense because they were terrans in BW. I think they should add one or possibly two more races, then the factions. Though this would make balancing the game hard... it would add to the already near endless replayability.

[Maegtelluma]

I like your idea...having a few unique units and upgrades for each faction. New UED ground militia units! I don't like the idea of hybrids, i can't seem to imagine a hydralisk zealot looking even somewhat cool...

Maybe as a non playable, but that would just make people mad that they couldn't play as them. Having these factions would make multiplayer race and faction choice would be much more important. For instance, UED units could have an advantage over certain zerg broods because they had/have (it's late) the overmind for a time, etc.

I like the idea.

[mathx314]

I tend to agree. Each race should be divided into its eight seperate factions, with each faction having its own unique advantages, while still being the original race. Also, I dislike the idea of hybrids, however the Zerg should gain a new unit to add to its infested armies: the infested Protoss! That was their original goal after all.

[Fenix-MSG]

I tend to agree. Each race should be divided into its eight seperate factions, with each faction having its own unique advantages, while still being the original race. Also, I dislike the idea of hybrids, however the Zerg should gain a new unit to add to its infested armies: the infested Protoss! That was their original goal after all.

No their goal was to make the perfect race. The unity of the purity of form and of essence. This would be the hybrids. They inteded to make the perfect race, not the unit. They are looking to make actual hybrids of the two, not a protoss infested with zerg spores.

[Frattimonde]

Why so negative upon new races?

There hasn´t have to be like a dozen or something.

One new playable race would be enough.
And I personally think the Zerg/Protoss should be that one.

And the Xel´Naga perhaps as a neutral race,
such as the naga was In TFT.

[Maegtelluma]

In my opinion most people are against a new race because of the near perfect race balance that exists now. Blizzard would have to be very very careful not to mess this up. Also, they don't want to just throw a new race into the story. I know you're going to say "But there's Xel Naga and Hybrids!!!". Think of how hard that would be to balance. Xel Naga are basically godlike beings. Hybrids are a combination two, therefore being better than either of them alone. That would be really hard.

[Battlecruiser]

In my opinion most people are against a new race because of the near perfect race balance that exists now. Blizzard would have to be very very careful not to mess this up. Also, they don't want to just throw a new race into the story. I know you're going to say "But there's Xel Naga and Hybrids!!!". Think of how hard that would be to balance. Xel Naga are basically godlike beings. Hybrids are a combination two, therefore being better than either of them alone. That would be really hard.
Yeah, but they don't exactly have to be true to the "actual" potential of the units. Game balancing is a bigger priority than how strong a unit is supposed to be in the storyline.

[Maegtelluma]

Well, yeah, it has to be. Otherwise, an archon would be completely obliterating like everything.

[PowderBB3D]

Again: Hybrids seem unoriginal. Elves, Orcs, Humans, Undead; these were, generally, pretty unique (compared to each other, because yes they are cliche in fantasy games). Protoss, Terran, Zerg; these three races were pretty unique compared to each other as well. If you throw the hybrids in there, by definition they must be similar to both the Zerg and the Protoss. That seems not only inherently unbalancing but also just plain boring.

Also, don't forget the whole concept of factions and the like. Haha, just don't want the thread to become solely a hybrid/naga bashing/supporting fan-stravaganza.

- P

[Shinigami]

If you throw the hybrids in there, by definition they must be similar to both the Zerg and the Protoss. That seems not only inherently unbalancing but also just plain boring.
I've voiced my opinion on this a few times, but only at BF, so I'll re-itterate.

Why would a proper Zerg/Protoss hybrid have to look like either of them, or even act in such a way that you could tell that it was a hybrid of those two races outright? I doubt very much that you, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, are partial to the idea of a Zealot with Zergling claws, or a psi-blade wielding, shield protected Hydralisk. What about a unique looking creature acting as blood-thirsty as The Swarm, or an army of new, very loyal warriors? People don't like these ideas because they are stupid and unoriginal. So why even bother explaining why we'd hate these ideas? Why not come up with new ones?

For over a year I've been loyal to the idea that a hybrid race would be unique in most aspects. Sure, you're saying, I can agree with this, but where's the proof that this is plausible? Since both races are creations of the Xel'Naga, I can see the races being parts of an equation. After all, each race does have one of two perfections, so, with this knowledge (assuming the Xel'Naga knew this) it would only be logical to give one race a hook to latch onto the other and make the perfect race they've been searching for. Or maybe they never planned it and it's just something that'll happen; one of Nature's little quirks.

As for a hybrid race being unbalanced, I cite the italicized word in my first paragraph: proper. If Duran, as omnipotent as he may or may not be, thinks he's found the true form of the hybrid, and he hasn't, he'll use a race that is a mere comination, not a complete hybridization. Or maybe it isn't tweaked just right to be what he truly wants, not what he thinks he does. The posibilities are endless.

But on topic, I like the idea of factions. Unlike many games, though, where you have a set of core units that they all use and a few uique ones, I would prefer a reversal. Either there are a few units that all the factions share (something simple, like a Marine, for instance) or none at all. If SiegeTank can come up with amazing unit ideas and storylines for multiple Terran factions, Blizzard can do it, and with every race.

[Magmaniac]

you have good ideas, but if blizzard did'nt put hybrids in, many of its fans would be angry for i beleive more people want hybrids than don't. i say add hybrids and factions so everyone would be happy. plus, the hybrids wouldn't be just zerg and toss at the same time, it would be completely new everything, not just like infested zealots or something.

[Noodlz]

This is what i think...

*They have sheild
*Their hp regenerates like the zerg upset somewhat slower
*Their atk is weaker then the protoss yet stronger then the zerg
*Soso time to make and expensive
*Not machines
AND OF COURES
CAN NUKE lol jk =P

[Darkeggy]

Sounds Advance-Wars-ish

[warmasterofoblivian]

My two cents on the "NEW RACES PLEASE" craze:

I don't particularly like the idea of the hybrids. Unless things were done extremely well, the very idea seems inherently unoriginal. A combination of two races would also effectively render the components of that race obsolete. Why play Protoss or Zerg when you could be both at once?

I don't know if a new race is even necessary. I'd much rather see modifications and improvements on the already existing ones.

A more interesting approach to "new races" might be "new factions." Each player could pick one of the three basic races - the Zerg, the Terran, or the Protoss. Then they pick a particular faction to control. For the most part the factions are all identical within each race save for a few key differences.

Terran - UED is probably one of the most obvious factions that comes to mind. The UED might be equipped with an extra aerial unit and battlecruisers with denser armor as well as a higher attack strength. They might be able cloak science vessels, or maybe the science vessels have access to an extra skill that normal Terran science vessels do not have (maybe they can cloak nearby units like arbiters, or target nuclear weapons like ghosts do). This comes from the idea that, for the most part, the UED is in an invasionary force into the K-sector; an invasion fascilitated more by their starships than ground forces.

The Zerg race might be subdivided by brood. Zerg - Fenris is one that is of particular interest to me. It's supposedly used to find species ripe for assimilation and for tracking down targets. To this end, Fenris could be given a power similar to the Dark Archon ability known as Mind Control. Assimilation of units would require a queen, and the queen could then command that unit. Fenris might also be bestowed faster zerglings or an additional ground unit that no other Zerg broods have to go along with the idea that they are used in tracking and quick assaults. Finally, Fenris is a very small brood made of some of the best zerg warriors; that said, units might be more expensive overall but have +1 armor, or +10 hp, or something to that extent.

The Protoss would find thier factions divided along tribal lines. One of my personal favorite tribes is Protoss - Sargas. They're known as assassins and are traditionally associated with the Dark Templar and individuality. A good benefit to using Sargas might lie in stronger Dark Templar, or an extra ability for the Dark Archon. To portray their disdain for the communal and love of the individual, Sargas might also require less psi for their units; as a result, however, all units save for the Dark Templar and Dark Archon might be about 10 or 20 hitpoints weaker than your traditional Protoss warriors.

These are just some ideas, but I think it's a bit better than spamming new races, especially if those new races are just rehashes of the old. Factions could offer a very specialized gameplay mechanic, wherein players could more easily access a race/faction that suited their gameplay flavor. Also, people like me (I play Terran only) would be able to vary their game from time to time without losing the core aspects of their favored race. All Terrans would have Marines, but some might have stroner Marines or maybe an extra ground unit that would complement the Marines (some type of sniper unit that has extremely long range and one hit kills on infantry but low HP and and rate-of-fire perhaps).

- P toooooo long mister happy

[singo]

hey, long posts are better than just saying NO MORE RACES!!!!!!!!!, at least he gives some reasons/ideas

[BSTRhino]

Yeah singo I agree... warmasterofoblivian, if you're going to make a post, post something extravagantly interesting.

[Killak420]

How about Blizzard uses 2 old races like the Xel Naga and Humans from earth or Robots from earth

[PowderBB3D]

Right. Forgive me if I sound like a complainer but there are other threads where you can post that you want "robots from earth" (which I still think is a terrible and stupid idea) or the Xel'Naga to be playable races. The real point of this thread is to discuss the faction concept.

- P

[dark-kirby]

I think people misunderstand about the hybrids. The Hybrids are --totally-- combined units of zerg and protoss, creating something new. How would a psionic/mind humonioud alien race react with an evolving, entirely biological race? If they were --completely-- combined, 100%, what would it be like? What if the protoss part overcomes the zerg part's weak mind, creating an awesome warrrior with zerg powers, and protoss skills, while following the protoss cause? The hybrids arent like 2 zerglings attached to a zealot. They are completely combined, not a combination of two races, a new born race. That is what Duran said. Otherwise, kerrigan could have thought of the plan long ago. Zeratul understood this, because he, or anyone else, could not predict who would these new things side with, or what they would do, and which powers they would get. Duran made this a complete suprise. This idea makes much more sense for a new race. And they might just create a new power, not a combined one.

[singo]

if there were hybrids id say only as an enemy in the campaigns, to stop them unbalancing the mulyiplayer game (everyone would use them and b.net would get boring).

Id say the three already there (toss, kerrigans' zerg and the dominion) a new UED fleet with some different tech, and posibly the combined human/toss faction formed by raynor and fenix (who escaped death again)

but i think blizzard will not add any playable races.

[Killak420]

Those are really good ideas. How about if Blizzard puts in the Xel Naga as a totally diferent race on its own and keep the Zerg, Protoss and Terran as playable faction units. I think that would be good. The Terran can have alot of upgraded ground units example a Marine with a Rocket launcher that would be really cool and someone said something about a Sniper that would be sweet and how about a Fighter Bomber. Those can all be new units in which the UED could bring to the Terran Factions.

[TaCktiX]

The faction idea is wonderful, period. Why? Look at Age Of Empires (any of the three). It adds one unit (and in Age of Mythology, a few god powers) to each faction to give it a unique flavor, and lets you decide which unique unit is most to your playing style. The best way to create a faction system would be common buildings in the race, half-common units and powers, half-unique to faction. Now this does sound hard, but Blizzard has always taken challenge after challenge and done a killer job.

As to new races, yes there will be, beyond any doubt (see my post in Tell Me What You Think About This Sc2 Theory!!! (http://www.warboards.org/showthread.php?t=3520)). The storyline will be Blizzard's saving grace. You know how much story was given for the Terran, Protoss, and Zerg before SC even began, right? SC2 will begin after SC:G, and significantly after the end of BW and Duran's ominous announcement. Yesterday's heroes (yes, Raynor and such, and perhaps Kerrigan too) are dead. Things have advanced in general. Thus, Blizzard will be able to rethink what the old races now have, as well as bring in the hybrids (which, as Kool_Kirby said, will be a hybrid in essence, NOT in pieces, meaning there will be new units that vaguely resemble the source races) and the Xel'Naga.

Now as to the argument that the Xel'Naga will be too powerful to be playable, I disagree. Remember that their main R&D/War fleet got obliterated by the Zerg swarm before SC began. The Xel'Naga are a fallen power. They are less than half of what they were, and they are trying to rise again to create what they wanted originally.

The major "X Factor" for the SC2 storyline will be Duran and whatever organization he represents (Xel'Naga renegades, perhaps?).

My thinking on the cheapness/technology scale would be like the following:
Zerg<Terran<Hybrid<Protoss<Xel'Naga

[dark-kirby]

My thoughts on factions are:

If they were to have factions, the races would be the same, just including these changes. You could play as the normal race w/out any improvements or drawbacks, or choose from one of three factions(thus creating 12 ways to play). Note: Each race and factions will undoubtly get new units. DO not get confused with NEW units and SPECIAL units. Example with the terrans:

Choose:Terrans:normal, UED, Korhal Dominion, Raynor's Elite Fleet.

UED:Advanced Goliaths and valkrie frigate attack power, 20% more at start, upgrades do +1 to upgrade amount on weapons. Goliaths can learn Hyper Gatling Gun upgrade(twice as fast autocannon). Medics begin with 250 energy and can get 300 energy. Special Unit:Hyper Gunner, bad ass marine with 2xhealth and 2 armor, cant attack normally, but can deploy much like a siege tank and has an attack of 25 and a range of 8. Cost:100 minerals, 75 gas. Abilities: Deploy. Allows it to deploy mg and start hailing ojut bullets.
Penalties: Firebats have only 12 attack instead of 16. Vulture's suffer the penelties of only getting 2 spider mine when researched, and -5 attack. Science vessels only get 175 energy, and whn upgraded, 225 energy.

[Brainsucker]

Hybrid idea is good. A new strong race that combine Protoss DNA dan Zerg DNA. Although they are strong, but Protost and Zerg are developed well, so although Hybrid army is stronger than them, Protost and zerg still can face them with their newest developed weapon / units.

What about these :
Terran : Confederation ( original SC2 unit ), UED ( stronger unit, more advance technology, have newest version of units, ex : Valkyrie MK 2, etc ), Terran Dominion ( weaker than UED, but has better in stealth and disturbing units ), Reynor dan Fenix Freedom army ( Worst in technology. Use SC1 Terran units, plus few protost units )

Zerg : Original SC2 unit, Kerrigan Brood Unit ( zerg type of UED, I don't know, I seldom playing Zerg ), Renegade Zerg ( zerg type of Terran Dominion, have more tricky unit, like zergling moving underground, perhaps ), Hybrid ( combination between Zerg and Protost DNA. Make a new stronger unit. Their unit based on Zerg and Protost SC1 units. Controled by Xel Naga in champaign )

Protost : Original SC2 unit, Dark templar based faction ( They are warrior tribe, like jedi in Star Wars. Lack of advance unit, but their disipline make the units stronger ), Anti Dark Templar based faction ( Technological worshiper. they have more advance and efficient unit than the other faction, but they do not worshiped warrior code like Dark Templar based faction. So their units are weaker than Dark Templar based faction, and the last one is Xel Naga, the old races from no where. They had the most advance technology in universe. But today race can face them with their developed power.

Honestly, I don't know Protost and Zerg well. So I just make them as much as I know ( so if you don't accept my idea, fixed it with your own idea !! ).
For UED, units are the best. They have newest version of units. Their building can transform into starship, and If there is hero system, and there are 3 hero in the game, UED has only 2 hero.
For Terran Dominion, stealth unit is the best. Perhap stealth building is a good idea. They have psi emiter unit that can convert zerg unit for limited time. Their hero is standard.
For Reynor, the units is the weakest, but their heroes are the strongest.They can hire protost units too.

For the balance of the game. We can't make it like SC1 anymore ( like Zerg is the weakest but have more units, while protost is the strongest but need lot of mineral to build their units ). I prefer to see WC 3 balanced system.

[Irish_Hitchhiker]

:mad2: i don't think that a protoss/zerg hybrid should even become a tought in the fairly stable minds of those noble people who enjoy have pure races we should not combine the mighty protoss with the mindles and wastefull zerg who are only a pitiful and weak race :laser: :chair:


ALL IN ALL I THINK THE ZETRG ARE A TERIABLE RACE AND THE PROTOSS RULE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[leng]

again i would not like to see a new playable race in the game.

i have a slightly different view on the factions from the guy a few posts back.

UED: best tech, with a focus on air power. unique ship appearance (even though the basic coding is the same) and better stats. also best science in general. poor infantry, since they come from a stable society with less conflict. however only they can build the medic (which is less powerful than in bw), since they must maintain (the appearance of) compassion and civility. cannot build vulture.

dominion army: best infantry - the koprulu humans are rough and ready. also relatively good ground vehicles. air units are weak overall, but have higher than average ground attack, so they serve a supplemental role in the ground war. these should be the ones with the machine gunner, possibly even as a replacement for marine. they cannot build the science vessel, but the terrans in general should have a less cumbersome detector, so they only lose the spells.

dominion command: lots of tricks up their sleeve, as mentioned. they also have a good fleet.

resistance/pirates/whatever: high mobility and flexibility. slightly faster overall. cheaper dropships. faster buildings, and all of them can be moved. cannot build the battlecruiser.

[Oryhara]

K my have some arguments
1. The UED forces were annilated by Kerrigan's Zerg Swarm at the end of Brood War...so yah... the UED just made everything worst for our Terran and Protoss buddies in space fighting the Zerg with less marines and warriors because of the good-for-nothing UED
2. I dont think that Hybrids will be a race, but rather that when the Hybrids are created ,they will takeover some of the Zerg because of their already powerful Psionic powers fused with the Zerg Psionic powers, the Hybrids would be a better Hero Unit than a cannon foddler unit.

[TerrainG4Force]

i don't think that a protoss/zerg hybrid should even become a tought in the fairly stable minds of those noble people who enjoy have pure races we should not combine the mighty protoss with the mindles and wastefull zerg who are only a pitiful and weak race


ALL IN ALL I THINK THE ZETRG ARE A TERIABLE RACE AND THE PROTOSS RULE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

First of all, GO TERRAINS



Second of all, How bout kerrigan,shes half ghost, half zrg?

:_owned: :bananaroc :bonk:

[Aquarian]

Alright....Who revived the thread?

*Tosses head back and laughs while pointing at kirby's account*

GO TERRAINS

You meant Terrans,right?